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applegrove

(118,617 posts)
Tue Sep 2, 2014, 11:27 PM Sep 2014

"What Makes People Poor?"

What Makes People Poor?

Opinion, Thomas B. Edsall at the NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/03/opinion/what-makes-people-poor.html?smid=re-share

"SNIP......................

In a series of emails to me, Baker argues that the Federal Reserve’s determination to limit inflation has boosted unemployment, that policies that keep the value of the dollar high hurt employees who face foreign competition, and that trade agreements pit American labor against workers in low-wage developing countries.

Despite the conflicting nature of these left and right analyses, there is a strong case to be made that they are, in fact, complementary and that they reinforce each other. What if we put it together this way? Automation, foreign competition and outsourcing lead to a decline in well-paying manufacturing jobs, which, in turn, leads to higher levels of unemployment and diminished upward mobility, which then leads to fewer marriages, a rise in the proportion of nonmarital births, increased withdrawal from the labor force, impermanent cohabitation and a consequent increase in dependence on government support.

The major roadblock to synthesizing competing explanations has been — and continues to be — political polarization. Vested interests on the left and right have delayed, and in some cases prevented, recognition of the overlap between liberal and conservative hypotheses, and have pointedly ignored evidence that contradicts their preconceived partisan positions.

..................

The emergence of a rough ideological consensus on the causes of poverty and inequality would increase the likelihood of, but by no means guarantee, agreement on such initiatives as raising the minimum wage, increasing and expanding the scope of the earned-income tax credit, programs promoting marriage and paternal involvement, as well as stronger efforts to improve the quality of education, especially in poor neighborhoods.


........................SNIP"
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lonestarnot

(77,097 posts)
10. And that is what makes me most angry about those motherfuckers. Really is that what America is
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 01:13 AM
Sep 2014

about? Our capitalism allows it, so apparently that is what is about. No wonder the fucking world hates our asses.

daredtowork

(3,732 posts)
3. Return of the Sensible Middle
Tue Sep 2, 2014, 11:38 PM
Sep 2014

As we close in on the next Presidential election....

Triangulating toward that great bipartisan "reasonable" consensus...

Sacrificing the "wings" of both parties as "wingNUTS" and radicals...

If only that great bipartisan middle will discover that REASON is all ONE, and the MIDDLE shares common sense...

Everyone seems to be on the same page when drinking beers after work...

Don't want to be left out of that Reasonable Middle...

Wait how come all the actual votes are drifting to Right?

When did the Middle become GOP?

Wasn't the Triangulation supposed to identify the Bipartisan Reasonable Middle?

While we were Transcending Politics, the GOP somehow got their way on everything!

**brought to you from the Been There, Done That Committee**

applegrove

(118,617 posts)
4. Just because the GOP went bonkers doesn't mean the middle
Tue Sep 2, 2014, 11:50 PM
Sep 2014

disappeared. If they would let Obama and the Democrats pass the odd bill these things recommended in the article, they would have happened. Like minimum wage. That has huge support. Don't blame Democrats because they remain a big tent. They serve by far more types of constituents that the GOP does. The GOP serves the 1%, cloaked in god, gays and guns.

daredtowork

(3,732 posts)
5. It's great to be a big tent
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 12:10 AM
Sep 2014

But I feel that big tent tends to make Dems suckers in some respect.

I'm in an area with a lot of academics - especially academics that like to feel they are Reasonable and Bipartisan and Above the Rabble. They tend to posit a nutty leftwing that doesn't exist. It annoys the heck out of me because I feel their posturing actually just hands the GOP propaganda they can use.

Sure there are some Leftwing crazies just like there are Rightwing crazies: but the problem with these Bipartisan Reasonable Middle types is that everyone who is even slightly "socialist" turns into one of the "wingnuts". Then before you can say "boo" their "Reasonable Bipartisan Middle" is actually somewhere on the Right!

They are the last people who would regard themselves as gullible since they are so Reasonable and Bipartisan and Transcendent ...but gullible is what they are. :-/

 

MoleyRusselsWart

(101 posts)
6. Actually
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 12:11 AM
Sep 2014

Its really the .01%. Pretty much anyone earning a paycheck, even if its 250k is subsidizing the Romney's and Koch's of the world.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
7. That's right, all our complaints and observations are completely invalid and baseless...
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 12:17 AM
Sep 2014

If we just pretend really hard that everything will magically turn perfect the day we get some variable number of people with a D next to their name in office, it'll come true, because... because it has'ta, it just has'ta!

The tent is big enough for right-wingers, but we on the left keep getting left in the rain. we're told we're unreasonable - or in one particular Democrat's words, "fucking retards" - by the same people who keep reaching out to find common ground with the party that thinks gay people should be forcibly "reeducated' that Mexicans should be gunned down at the border, and that there should be no minimum wage.

And then? We get scolded by people like you for having issues with that?

applegrove

(118,617 posts)
8. I didn't say all of the "complaints and observations" on the left
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 12:31 AM
Sep 2014

are wrong. I said that Democrats get to address a variety of realities. The left was far ahead in knowing trickle down was all smoke and mirrors. And don't we all wish the nation and the world had not gone down that more mindlessly competitive regulations road. That was a mistake the center made. Don't like inequality? Minimum wage Dems have tried to pass. Are you a corporation. Dems are passing trade deals. Don't like inequality? Dems want legislation to penalize inversions. Some of these policies are at cross purposes. That is because Democrats focus on the various needs of both the left and the center and all the people in between. And they even govern for those on the right at times because that is what democracy means. There are a myriad of realities in the nation. If you want only legislation to suit one set of specific needs you are only there for one specific group of people. Like the GOP is now. Give people, varieties of people, the basics of what they need in law and see them all thrive. That is the Democratic big tent. Meeting the needs of all realities of people.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
9. "Some of these policies are at cross purposes."
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 01:11 AM
Sep 2014

And you can hand-wave that all you want, but that shit is wrong. It's fucking intolerable! You can't have a political party that spends as much time unlacing its shoes as tying them. it's certainly no way to win a fucking race, but you're right, that's exactly what the Democrats are trying to do.

applegrove

(118,617 posts)
11. So you want the people of the USA all
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 01:21 AM
Sep 2014

dreaming one dream? That is a cult. Reality has multiple realities and dreams. And in a democracy people pursue these varied plans. And at times they bump up against each other. And maybe learn something (or not if they are gop). And you reach compromises in the democratic party like promote trade but have adequate taxes on that corporate profit so that social programs and education can be kick ass good. And everybody then wins because it is a great democracy.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
14. Oh, now I want a cult?
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 03:03 AM
Sep 2014

People already have one dream. They want to be healthy. They want homes. They want to be safe. They want to have free time. They want meaningful work That's not a cult, that's a basic understanding of human nature.

The problem with what you're describing, is that the democratic party just isn't willing to commit itself to any of this. It's pulled by competing forces, and sadly the people who need to be healthy, who need homes, who need safety, who need free time, who need meaningful work are not big-ticket donors to campaigns.

Another basic truth of human nature? "follow the money' is always productive advice. That guy who called people like me "fucking retards" yeah, that's Rahm Emmanuel. Look him up, especially his policy towards "kick-ass good education." And then look at why he as the record he does there.

The democratic party could draw its focus onto the impoverished, the poor, the working class, and bust ass to rebuild the crumbled supports and stairwells that used to exist down here, things that created the middle class by giving lower-income people ways up, access to the higher tiers of income. In doing so it would greatly benefit the upper tiers of income as well - as the saying goes, a rising tide lifts all boats.

On the other hand, giveaways to the wealthy stay with the wealthy. You golf-clapped the left for "noticing" that trickle-down doesn't work, well, did you notice the failure of trickle-down while back-slapping for free trade deals and shit like that in your last two posts? And adequate taxes? Oh lord are you tripping or something? This nation hasn't seen adequate taxation since Nixon. And we certainly show the wear and tear of that situation, don't we?

Speaking of finances and wealth giveaways, any plans from the Democrats to slice off all that pentagon bloat? Maybe remove DHS? Or are they going to keep shoveling money down the endless gullet of wasted opportunity that is the military, and keep funding a redundant gestapo department? Speaking of gestapo, how about the war on drugs? Do the Democrats have any plans to remove at least marijuana from schedule 1 status? doing so would save everyone a lot of money and social destruction.

How about health care? If the Democrats are in charge, any plans to use the ACA as a springboard towards true socialized health care? hey, how about expanding HUD? Maybe they can try increasing TANF instead of cutting it for a change! You know, health, shelter, food, shit everyone needs?

Let's get a little more esoteric, what's the democrat's energy plan? strong move towards replacing petroleum with solar, right? right? Of course there has to be a transition phase, can't do it cold-turkey, but... clear and rapid goals, right?

Hey feel free to stop me at any time if this is feeling Jim Jones-y to you, by the way

Look, you're asking for me to give my total and absolute, unquestioning loyalty to a political party, while... calling me a cultist... weird... but at the same time you're basically telling me that this party isn't real interested in actually achieving the shit that i know needs to be accomplished to improve the state of the nation. Your rationale for this lack of interest seems to be that the party is just too busy dividing its time and loyalty between groups that can be roughly divided into "could use the help" and "oppose helping anyone." This is supposed to be a selling point i think, but you may have mistaken me as someone who's wowed by bipartisanship and compromising one's principles for a quick buck.

applegrove

(118,617 posts)
15. I mostly agree with you. So why do you complain that
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 03:27 AM
Sep 2014

I don't listen or hear your complaints. I believe in a big tent. And so do you according to your post, where not everyone wants or needs exactly the same thing from government. I have always been for all the policies you describe, with the exception with trade. I‘n for universal childcare too. I am for higher taxrs on corporations around the world and penalties for inversion. I do worry that because the left has been so antitrade that all liberals have not had an adequate seat at the free trade talks. That benefits the GOP and corporations in the end. But getting back to the article, do you think Obama should push to implement the solutions to poverty that both parties can agree on, which he is starting to do, or should we wait until the Democrats have a supermajority to start fighting poverty. What do we do with what the congress we have (will have)?

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
16. Well, because of your dismissive response to Daredtowork
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 03:55 AM
Sep 2014

He complains of the "drifting middle' and how it is dragging the democratic party to the right, and your response is to just pretend his position has no validity whatsoever and that gosh oh gee if only the republicans would let up a little, everything would be hunky-dory. As if the democrats are in the same place they were with FDR and it's only the mean ol' republicans getting in the way!

Well, certainly the republicans aren't helping. But no, we can't pretend the Democratic party is some sort of sainted paragon here. They're heavily compromised (while not intended as a pun, it DOES work that way) and no longer effectively represent their constituents - except for those constituents who are only Democrats because it's fashionable or profitable

Your frame presented in this post is a big part of the problem. have you ever negotiated anything? A contract? ever sat as union rep to try to work with a boss to keep another member from losing their job? The first and most important rule of negotiation is, don't sell off your position before coming to the table.

That is exactly what you describe doing here:

do you think Obama should push to implement the solutions to poverty that both parties can agree on,


No, I think Obama should push to implement solutions to Poverty that democrats can agree on, and if the republicans have a problem, they can try to barter it down. Because what happens when you try to come up with something that caters to the republicans is... they try to barter it the fuck down anyway and it becomes Republican legislation.

This is the problem with putting compromise and bipartisanship on a pedestal. You can't afford to "meet halfway" with these guys, because doing so puts the result way over in the far right - which is exactly what daredtowork was saying.

Anyway. The Democrats in congress surely have a lot of that very dry, well-aged powder left from their flat refusal to do a single fucking thing about Bush, all the way to baldly taking impeachment off the table. So with all that dry, well-aged powder, surely they can prime a cannon to blast some anti-poverty legislation through.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
13. Another well said
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 01:33 AM
Sep 2014

The compromise we keep getting consists of Democrats moving halfway to meet conservatives who will not shift one iota. Political compromise with Republicans is always we go halfway and they refuse to budge. In fact, they're actually getting more and more extreme as teh years go on.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
12. "rough ideological consensus" will not happen
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 01:30 AM
Sep 2014

The problem is that the right still view poverty in exclusively Dickensian terms, as a result of the poor's own faults.

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