Parents of girl with uzi did ignored instructor as he lay with mortal head wound

[RandySF]

The 9-year-old girl who accidentally shot and killed her instructor at an Arizona gun range said the gun was too powerful for her after firing it, according to reports released by police on Tuesday and reviewed by the Associated Press.

The AP reported that the girl complained of shoulder pain after the incident and her family was so focused on her being injured from the gun's recoil that they didn't notice her instructor had been shot. A coworker rushed over to the shooting instructor, Charles Vacca, before the girl's family realized what had occurred.

The Aug. 25 incident occurred after the 9-year-old fired off single rounds and then Vacca switched the gun to automatic. The gun recoiled and fired upward, striking Vacca in the head and causing the girl to drop the weapon as Vacca himself fell to the ground.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/arizona-girl-uzi-too-powerful

[TreasonousBastard]

1. I understand parents' concern for their little girl might...

make them lose sight of other things.

But, aren't the parents of such a little girl automatically assholes for letting her fire the thing in the first place?

[newfie11]

2. I totally agree. Nt

[nomorenomore08]

3. Yes they are. And then some. n/t

[bvf]

7. Yes a thousand times. n/t.

[The Traveler]

8. I was taught to shoot before I could read

and there is no way the elder males of my family would have allowed me anywhere near a weapon like that at her age. At age 9, I had fired thousands of rounds from .22 rifles and .38 pistols ... but always under close supervision and any violation of safety resulted in immediate grounding. There weren't many of those ...

But these are gun nuts. Who the hell introduces their kid to a freakin' Uzi?

I'm a gun owner ... but no provision of the Bill of Rights is intended to enable the behaviors of an idiot and a jerk. These people are both. The Second Amendment, or its interpretation needs to be fixed. This is madness, and it needs to be confronted. In this case, I think child services needs to take a close look at this family ... someone is gonna get hurt. Oh. Someone already HAS been hurt. Yeah.

Trav

[TreasonousBastard]

9. I have little interest in guns, but here we agree absolutely...

the 2nd Amendment doesn't protect stupidity or ignorance. And it shouldn't protect the range for letting the kid use the gun.

Unfortunately, the guy directly responsible has already paid a terrible price. It would be nice if he didn't pay that price for nothing.

[Jamastiene]

29. "...the 2nd Amendment doesn't protect stupidity or ignorance."

It does, actually. That's the problem.

[TreasonousBastard]

36. As do all the Amendments.

[CTyankee]

42. Unfortunately, it is the 2nd A that usually does...and does with lethal effect...

[cwydro]

10. The "elder males"?

Lmao. The adult females in my family would never allow this nonsense. "Elder males?" Usually they start this kind of thing.

[avebury]

13. ...

[Aerows]

47. Same thing crossed my mind.

My mother .. the first person that put an Uzi in the hands of a 9 year old in her presence wouldn't have been spared just because they held a gun.

She knows how to use an iron skillet.

[cwydro]

87. Lol!

[Nay]

58. Exactly. The 'elder males' are the ones saying, "Hey, Bubba, watch this."

[3catwoman3]

18. THANK YOU!!!

...for this very rational statement -

I'm a gun owner ... but no provision of the Bill of Rights is intended to enable the behaviors of an idiot and a jerk. These people are both. The Second Amendment, or its interpretation needs to be fixed. This is madness, and it needs to be confronted. In this case, I think child services needs to take a close look at this family ... someone is gonna get hurt. Oh. Someone already HAS been hurt. Yeah.

[Jeneral2885]

23. so firing small weapons

makes you "not a gun nut"?

[brush]

27. No, but enabling a totally overmatched . . .

and nowhere near physically strong enough 9-year-old to fire an UZI set on automatic fire is absolutely nutty.

[Jeneral2885]

50. There could be nine year olds

who can even carry the weight of a small pistol.

[Aerows]

48. A "gun nut"

is anyone that puts an Uzi in the hands of a 9 year old. Let's start the line right there and we can pull it back as necessary. Frankly, let's start with "Don't put a full auto Uzi in the hands of a 9 year old." and go from there.

[Jeneral2885]

51. Are Uzis the only most destructive gun

what if a nine year old carries a loaded Sig Sauer? That's not nutty?

[brush]

52. Ahhh . . . there seems to be a failure to communicate here

After reading your responses it seems you're also think that putting automatic weapons and heavy, loaded handguns into the hands of 9-year-olds.

Am I right, were on the same side of this issue — that putting an UZI on automatic fire mode in the hands of a -year-old is nutty?

[Aerows]

67. A 9 year old is incapable of handling

an Uzi on full auto. An 8 year old last year killed himself accidentally because on got away from him.

A 9 year old doesn't need to be firing a .50 cal Barrett, either, or a 12 gauge shotgun. Why? Physics. They will injure themselves with it because they can't handle the recoil.

I have absolutely no idea what your point is, but if you are trying to say that an Uzi on full auto is the equivalent of a 9 year old holding a small caliber weapon, I'm pretty sure there is a difference, hence the full auto Uzi getting away from her and killing her instructor.

That would not have happened had anyone, including the parents, had a grain of sense and recognized that you don't put FULL AUTO weapons in the hands of 9 year olds. It's the difference between letting a 9 year old drive a go-cart under controlled conditions and letting a 9 year old loose in high performance race car.

[d_r]

55. Yeah

I can remember wanting to shoot my Dad's 12 gauge shotgun and being told that it would kick so hard it would knock me down. It was only after a few years with a 20 gauge and skeets that I was big enough for a 12-guage. Same thing with rifles. My dad had an old canadian ww2 rifle that I always wanted to shoot so badly, but I was shooting the bolt action .22.

[Luminous Animal]

72. You said, "any violation of safety resulted in immediate grounding. There weren't many of those ..."

I emphasize, "There weren't many of those..." Which of course meant there was some and thus you were incapable of handling a weapon safely.

[stevenleser]

19. I think I agree with every letter in your post. nt

[Jeneral2885]

25. beyond that

isn't wrongful interpretation of the Second Amendment a bigger indication of stupidity?

[LanternWaste]

86. I think that as some of the best jurists in the country's history have themselves

I think that as some of the best jurists in the country's history have themselves, debated the interpretations of not merely the second amendment, but indeed all of them, one may hazard that an interpretation, in and of itself, does not rise to the level of 'stupid.'

[Warpy]

28. Yeah, this is a "well, duh" headline

A parent's first concern will be the safety of the child. Then s/he'll look elsewhere.

[Aerows]

49. Yes

Idiots that shouldn't be in charge of an icebox, let alone a child. Certainly not a child with an Uzi.

People that stupid shouldn't be let outside without medication and supervision.

[magical thyme]

71. How could they not notice the man falling to the ground right next to her?

I mean, talk about being blinded by...something.

[Jenoch]

73. Who says they didn't see him go down?

They went to their daughter first. An employee ran to the instructor. Are you assuming once they saw their daughter was ok that they then ignord the man with the bleeding head wound?

[magical thyme]

81. they said it. nt

[Jenoch]

82. I hqve not read anythijg about the timing, have you?

[magical thyme]

89. the article at the link...

"The AP reported that the girl complained of shoulder pain after the incident and her family was so focused on her being injured from the gun's recoil that they didn't notice her instructor had been shot. A coworker rushed over to the shooting instructor, Charles Vacca, before the girl's family realized what had occurred."

Their daughter complained (to them ) of the shoulder pain and her family was so focussed on her recoil injury that they didn't realize what had occured until after a coworker rushed to the shooting instructor.

I've read several articles and they all provide a timeline that shows the parents focussed on the daughter's injury/complaint and not noticing the man on the ground beside her until after a coworker rushed over.

[Jenoch]

90. How long did that 'timeline' take

frm the gun being fired to when the emloyee ran over to the instructor?

[magical thyme]

91. nobody has stated a specific amount of time. nt

[Jenoch]

93. Thank you for making my point.

[TreasonousBastard]

74. Strange things happen when people are in shock or distress...

if they saw their daughter in trouble they might well have been blinded to everything else. They might even have seen their daughter as the one having been shot.

[RKP5637]

78. Yep! n/t

[Skittles]

4. "they didn't notice" is not the same as IGNORED

their first concern should be for their child, although I'm not sure why if they're that concerned they would consent to her being in a shit place like that

[avebury]

14. Wile their first concern should be their child, they had to be

deaf, dumb and blind not to notice the bleeding man on the ground.

[mythology]

16. Sometimes a parent's concern for their child overwhelms them

I remember I once had a motorcycle wreck and when my parents, who were about 5 minutes behind me, came up, my mom was convinced I was dead or already taken by an ambulance due to major injury until my stepdad pointed out that I was standing over my bike.

That said, the parents deserve all sorts of scorn for letting their 9 year old kid shoot an uzi in the first place.

[Jenoch]

20. Really?

It was probably a matter of just a few seconds involved in this incident.

[avebury]

30. You would have thought that one parent would have pulled

the girl aside and the other check on the instructor. Even if I had a family member in the same position of the little girl, I sure as heck would not have missed the bleeding guy on the ground.

[Jenoch]

38. Why are you assuming they missed the

bleeding guy on the ground? They ran to their daughter on the ground. An employee ran to the bleeding guy on the ground. I am quite sure they got their daughter out of there and then their attention was then the instructor.

[avebury]

43. Probably what was reported in the AP report:

"The AP reported that the girl complained of shoulder pain after the incident and her family was so focused on her being injured from the gun's recoil that they didn't notice her instructor had been shot."

[Jenoch]

45. That probably lasted about 7 or fewer seconds.

[Skittles]

37. I don't think they are talking about a great deal of time here

I think they're referring to the moments immediately following the shot

[JI7]

5. i wonder if their concern was for the girl herself or over not getting the pic they wanted

to show off to others.

[Live and Learn]

6. Why did you replace "didn't notice" with 'ignored?'

They have different meanings.

[RandySF]

17. How the hell do you "not notice" a man with a head shot?

[kcr]

22. When you think your child has been hurt shooting a gun

Yeah, they were idiots. But they're still parents.

[ColesCountyDem]

11. They didn't 'ignore' him-- they didn't 'notice him'

"...The AP reported that the girl complained of shoulder pain after the incident and her family was so focused on her being injured from the gun's recoil that they didn't notice her instructor had been shot.....".

Why was it necessary to mis-characterize the parents' behavior?

[Crabby Appleton]

34. Indeed. nt

[djean111]

12. If the instructor was laying on the ground, then they ignored him.

But hey! He was just sort of vaguely regrettable, more like inconvenient, collateral damage, anyway.

[Xithras]

33. To be entirely fair, the death was about 90% the dead guys fault.

This is one of those rare instances where "blaming the victim" is actually just fine.

He's the one with the federal license to own and operate the gun. He's the one who chose to make money off that gun by letting random strangers fire it. He was the ONLY one present with knowledge and experience around that particular firearm, who could have known how difficult the gun was to handle. He's the one who agreed to put it into the hands of a little nine year old girl. He's the one who told the girl and her parents that it could be done safely. He's the one who threw the switch to activate fully automatic firing. He's the one who chose to stand in the worst possible place alongside a person firing an UZI (and was the only one who should have known what a dangerous place that spot was). He's the one who told her to fire.

The parents are idiots for thinking that it would be a "fun idea" and signing off on it, but the dead guy largely earned his death through his own idiotic decisions. The only actual victim here is the little girl, who has to live with the decisions of these adults (and I use the term "adults" loosely) for the rest of her life.

He's not collateral damage. He's an idiot whose stupidity lead to his own death.

[djean111]

35. Point taken.

[sendero]

53. Exactly....

.... though I would not say anything so crass to his grieving family and friends, he is the clear recipient of a Darwin Award.

He could have easily seen when the girl fired a single shot trial run that she was not going to be able to control the weapon. It's sad, her parents are idiots too but at the end of the day this was his gig and he wasn't thinking.

[marions ghost]

56. "Earned his death"

and "blaming the victim is just fine..."

we all do stupid things. It's not wise to say he "earned death" unless you think you might "earn death" from making a wrong turn in your car. Did the girl have the right to kill him for his stupidity?

We need laws to protect the stupid from killing themselves and others. Prosecution in these cases would act as a deterrent.

[Xithras]

57. He didn't simply make a "stupid" decision.

This isn't a guy who made a random dumb decision and got himself killed. He helped to run a profitable business that was BUILT ON the idea of putting people (including himself) at risk of injury or death on a daily basis. He knew the risks. He accepted the risks. He was willing to take them on because he, himself, created them. Keep in mind that the Uzi is also famous for kicking backward and spinning around, so this little girl could have just as easily shot herself in the head...and he was FINE with that, because he was making money off her parents. He was willing to LIE to the girls parents, telling them that the activity was safe when it clearly wasn't, just to take a bit of their cash.

This is a guy who knew and understood the dangers of these weapons, and not only chose to use them for profit, but to profit by putting them into the hands of children who he unquestionably knew were too small to handle it safely. He didn't make a random unthinking choice to hand it to her. He knew she was too small to fire that weapon, and he gave it to her anyway.

He bought his own ticket. He's the one who should be prosecuted, but his hasty exit from this world prevented that from happening. The victim here is the little girl, and not the dead guy. He chose his fate. I'll save my sympathy for her, and for the family and friends that he left behind.

[marions ghost]

59. I understand all that

and you summed it up well.

It's not that I have sympathy for the guy, except that I do have compassion for idiots (which I see him as, rather than intentionally malicious). Some people are victims of their own delusion--about safety, about their own abilities, about their level of risk. But we all have delusions of some sort. You don't feel the same about a sky diver or a race car driver or a rock climber--that they deserve death.

Of course the girl is a victim also. A victim of her parents stupidity and negligence equally as much as the instructor's. But her parents did not receive the death sentence in this case, though you are right they could have. They should face prosecution in this case, if we had any decent laws.

I'm the last person to say what was going on at this place is OK. I don't think it is and I'd like to see any place run like this shut down. I am against the proliferation of these weapons in general. But I DO see this guy as a victim who should not have died this way. Unless you want to say that all gun handlers of any kind deserve to die by their own gun (and I doubt that).

[jollyreaper2112]

77. few people deserve to die

But you can certainly call some deaths tragic and sine inevitable. The kid hotdogging on his motorcycle, he's chasing death. If he catches it, that's sad but I will reserve more sympathy for the kid who's dealing with cancer.

Who was it, Morton Downy Jr? Famous for being a professional asshole, did ads for the smoker's lobby? Super obnoxious over smoking? Died of lung cancer. That's fitting.

[marions ghost]

80. When it comes to tragic early death

I don't parse it that way. I don't see any death as less tragic where there was more risk, or stupidity, or somebody made a mistake. Unless you think that all gun handlers deserve death because using guns is inherently risky. All sky divers deserve their deaths. Did my grandfather deserve to die at 35 because of the mistake he made in a (sport) hunting accident? Was it less tragic than if he died with cancer?

So--if you agree that my grandfather's death was no less tragic, then you must agree there's something different about this type of gun death at the Burgers & Bullets. So you decide the instructor is to blame and died a "fitting" death. That's the way you rationalize it. And I say it is too easy to ignore the real societal problems behind this event, if you place all the blame on the instructor. The war industry in this country enables this hyped-up gun culture, allied with the NRA.

This guy deserved to die at the hands of a 9 year old with an Uzi? That is just too judgmental. People deserve to die because they are assholes or hypocrites of some kind? That would be an awful LOT of people. And some assholes do improve and repent. This lawless gun mania is to blame just as much as the people involved. This culture that infected the parents who pushed the girl to shoot the gun and thought it was so cute.

All of us who sit back and watch this absurd carnage are to blame.

[jollyreaper2112]

85. responsibility

Responsibility plays into it. Your grandfather, if he was a safe and responsible huntsman and he just had a spot of bad luck, shit happens. I nearly took a header on the tile floor after letting the dogs out this morning, feet were a bit slick because the porch was wet from the rain. Shit happens. If I ran a red light an hour later because I was fiddling on my phone instead of driving and get t-boned by a semi, what the hell was I doing? Everyone in my life will be upset at my passing but also pretty angry at me for being so stupid.

I don't think the instructor deserved to die. As I said, I reserve that for dictators, mass murderers, and people who work in advertising. The ideal situation would have been a wake-up call, something that scared the shit out of him, that he recognized as stemming directly from his own irresponsibility, and he comes out the other man a more cautious man. I had a come-to-jesus moment about late-night driving years back, a three hour drive after 10pm that nearly saw me fall asleep and run off the road. I'm now militant about not getting on the road late unless it's a very short drive. An old Clint Eastwood line, a man has got to know his limitations. Same goes for knowing the limitations of others. The girl couldn't handle that firearm and no amount of skill on his part could compensate for her, not unless that skill was "not handing children automatic weapons."

[marions ghost]

88. Sure

responsibility plays into the cause of death.

But I still maintain it is too judgmental to say that someone "earned their death" by being stupid. And certainly this guy had help in doing something stupid--not only the other adults but the permissive and protectionist gun culture.

[Katashi_itto]

15. Dear god, the gun wasn't hurt was it?

[Jeneral2885]

21. Parents cared about the child

only when she complained about the pain. Did she complain before she was told to fire the gun? Or was she forced to fire it?

[Aerows]

68. "forced to fire it"

Because 9 year old's are notorious for having the wisdom of adults and choosing not to do dangerous things if their parents allow it.

[Jeneral2885]

75. May not be Wisdom

it may be "you must follow the second amendment without fail, you must follow the second amendment without fail, you must follow the second amendment without fail"

[Aerows]

83. I think we had a sarcasm disconnect somewhere n/t

[Rex]

24. The insanity of worshiping lethal weapons by adults will now cause

that little girl to have nightmares about killing someone. But we love our guns!

[Jeneral2885]

76. all weapons are lethal

from the smallest to nuclear weapons.

[Rex]

79. Yes but none are worshiped like the gun is.

[arcane1]

26. That's a flame-bait bullshit headline and you know it.

Why the dishonesty?

[aikoaiko]

31. What a strange interpretation of that article to make that subject title.

:

They didn't ignore the injured instructor, they were concerned with the daughter who, thankfully, wasn't actually hurt.

[jillan]

32. As a mom, I can totally understand this. Not that my children would ever be in THIS situation but

if my child was hurt, my mommy blinders would pop out and all I would see is my child.

THEN once I knew they were okay, I would be aware of others.

[dilby]

39. What were they going to do put his head back together?

He was shot in the head with an Uzi, it's not like because they were more worried about their child he died, he died the second the bullet went through his brain.

[joshcryer]

40. It's more likely they chose not to bring attention to it.

Saying they didn't notice is silly, but the proper legal course. It seems the daughter didn't realize, the parents rushed in, took her quickly out of the picture.

[CentralMass]

41. We had a tragic case here in MA in 2008.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/10/westfield_police_release_name.html
An 8yr old boy was at a firing range with his father being instructed on how to fire a 9mm "Micro-Uzi". It recoiled and the boy shot himself in the head.

I can't fathom how any parent or licensed instructor would let a child anywhere near a loaded Uzi.

[TorchTheWitch]

61. I remember that

I read an article recently about the court case which settled for some undisclosed amount with video of the father crying as he gave his testimony. What bothered me so much about the father is that it was HIM that wanted his son to shoot the gun so he could take pictures while it was pretty clear in the video of the incident he didn't want to do and was nervous.

I noticed the same thing about this little girl. She looked like she was scared and didn't want to shoot the gun at all. I also believe she was pressured into doing it by her parents. You have to wonder about what goes on in their heads to even take their kid to a place like that.

Burgers and Bullets seemed to be the new Barbecue and Pony Rides. That all by itself is really disturbing. Seeing a little girl in pigtails shooting an Uzi at a human silhouette target was disturbing as hell to see as if it's a little girl in pigtails walking around in a circle on a pony. What the fuck are we teaching our kids with this madness???? And now gun shows are being called gun "fairs" as if there's going to be cotton candy and a ferris wheel. The whole concept of these places deliberately setting up "entertainment" for the little ones by having them shoot at human silhouette targets is unfathomable indeed.

Welcome to DU!

[CentralMass]

65. Thank you for the welcome :-)

[Johonny]

44. Placing all the blame the dead guy. Very nice.

County prosecutors said the instructor was likely the most criminally negligent person because he allowed the girl to hold the gun without enough training, according to the AP. Prosecutors also said the parents and the girl weren't criminally responsible.

[Niceguy1]

46. they are correct.

He was the instructor, the subject matter expert....his fault entirely, sad at it is

[Blue_Tires]

66. What about the managers at the gun range?

Unless there is a clear and stated policy that the instructor violated, i.e., "Don't let 9-year-olds fire full-auto weapons", they are just as liable...

And the parents definitely share some of the blame, but to be fair we don't hold parents accountable for anything anymore these days...

[marions ghost]

60. Yeah

convenient isn't it? There is negligence among the living in this case. The girl is not responsible but the adults who put the gun in her hands certainly are.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

62. In the end, gun nuts circle the wagons and protect the "culture"

The instructor mocked people on Facebook about the dangers of guns. I'm sure he would have wanted it this way. Just another statistic.

[marions ghost]

63. The irony...

the dangers of guns were never real to him. And that denial, that bravado, came back to bite him in the karma.

But there are many more like him. Many who will deny the message of even this highly publicized death and continue to, as you say, circle the wagons. They'll say that he's just some dumb fuck who deserved to die. Hmmmmm............

[Crunchy Frog]

84. Yeah, his employer should probably be taking some of the heat,

but basically, he pretty much was responsible for his own death.

Would you prefer it if they threw the little girl in the slammer?

[LiberalArkie]

54. I can not fathom the gun culture these days

When I grew up we started with BB guns (rifles) and advanced to pellet firing rifles. After we got good with the handling and firing we progressed to 22 rifles. I think around 16 most of the guys had 30-06 rifles in their trucks at school during hunting season. I can not remember guys having hand guns back when I was a kid in the 60's.

[Strelnikov_]

70. Great post

Like you, at that age you could handle a 22, single shot, under closest supervision . . . like an adult holding the gun.

Shows how far 'gun culture' has degenerated.

[CreekDog]

64. Randy, the story does not say that the parents ignored the wounded man

[Strelnikov_]

69. So?

Who handed her the gun?

If it was the instructor, it's no different than the two linemen I saw fried by 43KV on a construction site I was on due to their mistake.

Tragic, but you are paid in these positions to be a professional.

[Aristus]

92. "Oh no, no; he'll be all right. Now, wasn't that fun, sweetie?"

Too bad she didn't ventilate her dumb-fuck father while she had the chance...