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Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 09:58 AM Sep 2014

David Cameron warns of 'appeasing Putin as we did Hitler'


David Cameron has told European leaders that the west risks making similar mistakes in appeasing Vladimir Putin over Ukraine as Britain and France did with Adolf Hitler in the run-up to the second world war.

In a heated debate about the crisis behind closed doors in Brussels on Saturday, the prime minister told an EU summit that Putin had to be stopped from seizing all of Ukraine, according to La Repubblica, the Italian newspaper, which obtained details of the confidential discussion.

Downing Street declined to confirm the prime minister's remarks, but did not contest the accuracy of the report.

Cameron likened the west's dilemma with Putin to the infamous conduct of the British prime minister, Neville Chamberlain, with Hitler in Munich in 1938, when Anglo-French appeasement encouraged the Nazi leader to invade Poland the following year, sparking the second world war. "We run the risk of repeating the mistakes made in Munich in '38. We cannot know what will happen next," Cameron was reported as saying. "This time we cannot meet Putin's demands. He has already taken Crimea and we cannot allow him to take the whole country."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/02/david-cameron-warns-appeasing-putin-ukraine-hitler
21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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David Cameron warns of 'appeasing Putin as we did Hitler' (Original Post) Nye Bevan Sep 2014 OP
I'm more worried about appeasing Cameron. CJCRANE Sep 2014 #1
+1000. nt. polly7 Sep 2014 #5
The plaintive wail of all modern warmongers ... earthside Sep 2014 #2
What utter, lusting for a war, bullshit. djean111 Sep 2014 #3
did hitler have nukes? hmmmm bowens43 Sep 2014 #4
U.K. Prime Ministers may never be able to shake the legacy of Neville Chamberlain. gordianot Sep 2014 #6
Putin isn't Hitler and the situation isn't exactly the same, but there is some truth too. BillZBubb Sep 2014 #7
We helped invert the power structure in Ukraine overnight CJCRANE Sep 2014 #8
+ World War III Octafish Sep 2014 #12
We didn't invert the power structure overnight. Putin did. BillZBubb Sep 2014 #14
I think to people like Putin, letting them get away with Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is like stevenleser Sep 2014 #13
Agreed. To do nothing is not a responsible option. History shows that. BillZBubb Sep 2014 #15
Perhaps we should split Ukraine with Putin like Hitler and Stalin did to Poland in 1939. pampango Sep 2014 #9
If we did that, which would we be Hitler or Stalin? BillZBubb Sep 2014 #17
If we did such a thing it could easily be either. One aspect of fascism is the right of strong pampango Sep 2014 #18
I thought it might be sarcasm, but these days you never know! nt BillZBubb Sep 2014 #20
Ugh. Containment is an option here. Derp. nt geek tragedy Sep 2014 #10
He's more afraid of UKIP than the modern-day Hitler. nt LittleBlue Sep 2014 #11
Cameron should get together with McCain to devise more war propaganda. Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2014 #16
Right-wingers happily played the "appeasement" card regarding Saddam Hussein bullwinkle428 Sep 2014 #19
The right wing always wrongly uses the "appeasement" card. BillZBubb Sep 2014 #21

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
1. I'm more worried about appeasing Cameron.
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 10:02 AM
Sep 2014

The guy is just a Blair mini-me, another agent of geopolitical chaos.

earthside

(6,960 posts)
2. The plaintive wail of all modern warmongers ...
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 10:19 AM
Sep 2014

"We must not be like Neville Chamberlain."

How many wars have we (U.S., Britain, France, NATO, etc.) gotten into since 1945 because our 'leaders' offer wailing warnings of another 'appeasement' and/or another 'Hitler'?

We've got to stop falling for this constant war propaganda.

Unfortunately, the war party knows how to yank our (the general public) chain and get us to shell-out blood and treasure for their ends time after time after time.

gordianot

(15,226 posts)
6. U.K. Prime Ministers may never be able to shake the legacy of Neville Chamberlain.
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 10:34 AM
Sep 2014

Putin has the weapons in Hitlers wildest dream and is willing to play extortion chicken. Add to that it may be a cold winter in Europe. If they really want to battle Putin figure out how to get off fossil fuels and declare war on European oil companies that foster dependence. The US is the model for what happens when Oil Companies are appeased.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
7. Putin isn't Hitler and the situation isn't exactly the same, but there is some truth too.
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 11:06 AM
Sep 2014

Putin wants to rebuild Greater Russia by annexing all the Russian speaking areas on Russia's borders. So far, he has not used any massive, direct force to do so but instead has opted to use supplies of equipment and clandestine troops. That is directly analogous to Hitler's approach to the Sudetenland.

History has also documented how a strong response from the French or British to the German militarization of the Rhineland most likely would have cut Hitler's ambitions short and averted a World War.

Will Putin be satisfied with Crimea, the Donbas region, and a land corridor between Russia and Crimea? Or, given the ease with which he has accomplished a huge victory, will he be emboldened to reach for more? Hitler was emboldened, he took the weakness of the allies as a green light.

The response to Putin's moves don't have to lead to military confrontation. It is rather strange that the people accusing the West of war mongering are ignoring the fact that it is Putin who has precipitated this crisis by grabbing the land of another nation.

Does the West sit on the sidelines if Putin tries to grab all of Ukraine? Or the Russian speaking areas of the Baltic states, or other adjacent areas? Where does the West draw the line? Or is there no line?

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
8. We helped invert the power structure in Ukraine overnight
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 01:42 PM
Sep 2014

just like we did in Iraq.

That has consequences and reactions.

Putin was merely reacting.

We might not like how he reacted but he didn't initiate this little power play.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
12. + World War III
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 01:58 PM
Sep 2014

Which would not be anything I'd like, but there are those cough Condescenda of the one percent who would.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
14. We didn't invert the power structure overnight. Putin did.
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 02:21 PM
Sep 2014

Don't forget Putin swooped in and got the corrupt, unpopular former President Yanukovych to sign a pact with Russia after Yanukovych shot down a deal with the EU that had popular support. Putin knew exactly what the Ukrainian reaction would be.

That pact had consequences and reactions. IT INVERTED THE POWER STRUCTURE. As I said in my post, like all buffer states, Ukraine is a ping pong ball between rival blocs. Each bloc has been duplicitous.

But, to claim Putin was merely reacting is BS. Putin sensed weakness and took advantage. That is not merely reacting.

There seems to be a great deal of myopia here in people not seeing Putin for exactly what he is. We didn't invade Ukraine and invert the power structure. We didn't grab any Ukrainian territory. Putin did that.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
13. I think to people like Putin, letting them get away with Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is like
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 02:03 PM
Sep 2014

running from a predator. There is something instinctual that kicks in whereas even if the predator didn't necessarily intend to stalk and hunt you, you are going to set something off in them that will cause them to chase you.

Same thing with reacting to a dictator that has just engaged in an unprovoked war of aggression and conquest by not aggressively confronting them in some way. I happen to think Putin will grab all of Ukraine and as much of the former Soviet held areas as he can anyway. But if he hasn't set his mind on that for sure at this point, letting him get away scot free with what he has taken will set him on that course.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
9. Perhaps we should split Ukraine with Putin like Hitler and Stalin did to Poland in 1939.
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 01:52 PM
Sep 2014

Many Ukrainians may not like it but that may be no more relevant than Polish attitudes in 1939. I know it's the 21st century now and things are different, but big and powerful countries have more 'rights' than smaller, weaker ones, don't they? And Russia would end up with eastern Ukraine just like it ended up with eastern Poland.

There is a lot to learn from history. We should never ignore it, but times change and situations are different. What never seems to change is human nature; the liberal desire to make people's lives better and the conservative desire for more power.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
17. If we did that, which would we be Hitler or Stalin?
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 02:25 PM
Sep 2014

We would certainly be no better than either of them.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
18. If we did such a thing it could easily be either. One aspect of fascism is the right of strong
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 04:31 PM
Sep 2014

nations have a right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations. I prefer that we not act in a fascist manner.

I was joking in my earlier post. Sorry for not making that clear.

bullwinkle428

(20,626 posts)
19. Right-wingers happily played the "appeasement" card regarding Saddam Hussein
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 04:35 PM
Sep 2014

and Iraq in the lead-up to the war.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
21. The right wing always wrongly uses the "appeasement" card.
Wed Sep 3, 2014, 08:27 PM
Sep 2014

But, this is a case where the no appeasement argument has merit.

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