General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsVictoria Nuland in 2013: "We have invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine..."
@7:30 --"Since Ukraine's independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations," she said. "We have invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine."-- Victoria Nuland
"Assist Ukraine"
"Fuck the EU" -Assistant Sec of State Victoria Nuland
Nulands husband is historian Robert Kagan, Council on Foreign Relations member, and co-founder of the think-tank "Project for the New American Century" (PNAC).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland
$5 billion for Ukraine, Zero for Detroit
Do you know anyone that will benefit from spending $5 Billion in Ukraine?
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Enrique
(27,461 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)I'm so thankful for DU.
Where would we be without the good folks here constantly exposing Victoria Nuland and her incessant desires to control the universe?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)could get their hands on those magic cookies. Either could take over the world just using chocolate chips.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)Who the pro-Russian crowd apparently hates with the heat of a thousands suns.
For, I don't know, giving press conferences?
It's bizarre.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
newfie11
(8,159 posts)She's a weasel!
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)Enrique
(27,461 posts)that article has good information, but they are misleading when they claim to be fact-checking, and when they call the contrary analysis a conspiracy theory. It's not anywhere near as definitive as that.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)One that can be easily debunked, given that what happened in Ukraine was not actually a coup.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)would you accept that claim?
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)Preferences are cheap. Action isn't. We have preferences in sports, politics, music, movies, etc. That alone doesn't go far.
However, there's been no evidence presented whatsoever that the US actively acted on those preferences in deposing Yanukovych. Given that Yanukovych himself actually left Ukraine on his own willpower (and took three days to casually pack up his most valuable possessions), the notion that there was a "coup" is pretty much thrown out the window.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)for their nukes.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)As for expecting people who aren't married to someone, never been in politics, I'm guessing those who demand that would go with many of the Tea Party populists, like Joe the Plumber. As if you'd want to hire him to work at your house...
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)A certain group makes it sound like the $5 billion was given to them within the last year or two.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)or OWS.
It's strange how we support protesters abroad but squelch them at home.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)DOJ is investigating the Ferguson PD, in case you missed it.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)Do you enjoy pancakes?
Do you enjoy the croonings of Englebert Humperdink?
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)had a right to have their demands met?
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)And to your answer, sure.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)of our reactions to protests abroad vs at home.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)This guy can hassle you endlessly.
Life is short, and luckily that guy can be put on "ignore."
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)IIRC.
That's disingenous to say they had no demands.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)Translations: French, Slovak, Spanish, German, Italian, Arabic, Portuguese
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.
As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power.
We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.
* They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
* They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
* They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of ones skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
* They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
* They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
* They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
* They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
* They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers healthcare and pay.
* They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
* They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
* They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
* They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
* They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
* They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
* They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
* They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
* They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save peoples lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
* They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
* They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
* They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
* They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
* They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
* They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*
To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
Join us and make your voices heard!
*These grievances are not all-inclusive.
http://www.nycga.net/resources/declaration/
http://current.com/community/93480033_general-assembly-declaration-countdown-with-keith-olbermann.htm
Not concrete policy proposals, but a mission statement. I left them when Libertarians took over and told the youth to not vote, while at the same time pushing Tea Baggers to vote.
There also appeared to be an element of white privilege involved, as they demanded the right or freedom to take up the Commons for demonstrations, then were outraged at the brutal treatment by police, because they would not behave as the law allowed.
It was their behavior, not their skin color, that caused that, and they could have left the public spaces, but blacks cannot leave their skin color behind.
Blacks and minorities have been systematically treated with brutality by public and private powers for the fact of their skin color and not how they acted. OWS acted, as previous white protestors had, with the assumption of privilege under the same legal framework that denied others any freedom.
The words in the OWS Declaration gave me chills as white person, respecting the document written up by ancestral kin. Each of those great precepts were corrupted in order to enrich whites off the sweat of the brow of blacks and others. While I hold to the ideals there, I can't deny reality.
There was also too much of the *they* in their accusations. Government is not separate from the people but is composed of the ideas of those people who have many different beliefs and interests. The reason the corporatists are winning out in government is that they have a clear message for their followers who are not voting against their own interest as we accuse them of doing; they are instead, voting narrowly for their interests as individuals and principles and others be damned, so long as they get what they want. This is a blind spot among many who continue to marvel at why the world is leaning 'right.'
I submit that what OWS did after they left the national scene is fine if it has fusion qualities. But it was a media sensation and created, feted and was extinquished by the same media, and that is more like entertainment for supporters. There is more than one kind of addiction at work among us.
That they attacked the DNC platform on civil rights and corporate influence for which they had no counter to offer, and refused to do what was necessary to change it, did not ring true for those who seek change. Yet they are a vibrant culture in some areas, pushing Libertarianism, tapping into dissatisfied persons who have not worked in unity to affect large scale change with government.
They have siphoned off the vote but this has only led to more Tea Baggers in office creating misery and more feudalistic systems. They are seeking to find a niche to survive in that, abandoning civil government.
JMHO. I won't argue, as I've not noticed much rational discussion on OWS. I stated why I came to a parting of the ways. I also find fault with the list of greivances as well, as they were not new to most of us, and pointed the finger away from the people, who should be changing government to serve us and not allow the vacuum to be filled by the same corporate powers they accuse of so much trouble making. Too many of us cannot wait for their utopia. EOM.
P. S. More detailed piece at:
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/31/a_new_declaration_of_independence/
freshwest
(53,661 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)to go so far.
EX500rider
(10,835 posts)That may make satisfying them a little harder, no?
EX500rider
(10,835 posts)Why would every protest group "have the right" to have their demand met?
Pro-gun group?
KKK group?
PETA group?
etc...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)as the legitimate voice of the people.
Should we encourage them abroad but stomp them out at home?
Should other countries get involved in supporting our protest movements?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)cookies at OWS, that would not justify a US military response no.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)The Ukraine military shelled civilians in the East, that's well documented.
There are two sides to this conflict, it didn't just spring up spontaneously.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)invaded Crimea.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)There was no military action in Crimea.
That blew up later in the other regions.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)And that's exactly what they did, less than a week after Yanukovych left Ukraine.
It would be like saying our military can have free reign over all of Cuba because of our base in Guantanamo.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The US has a base in Cuba. If it rolled tanks towards Havana, that would be an invasion.
Russian troops seized land that belonged to Ukraine. That is a military action and an invasion, regardless of what the Putosphere says.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Awesome.
Sid
reorg
(3,317 posts)They are not welcome and their presence in Cuba is without the consent of the Cuban government since 1959.
The US send a yearly 4000 USD check, a sick joke in itself, but the Cuban government doesn't accept it. It is their land, but the US is staying there and even uses the place for outrageous crimes against humanity, the big bully which can afford military expenditures 320 times the measly amount Cuba's is spending.
So, what was it again you were saying about invasions?
THE EMPIRE AND THE INDEPENDENT ISLAND
... Since the triumph of the Revolution, the Revolutionary Government has denounced the illegal occupation of that portion of our territory.
On the other hand, since January 1st, 1959, the United States turned the usurped territory of the Guantanamo Naval Base into a permanent source of threats, provocation and violation of Cubas sovereignty, with the aim of creating trouble for the victorious revolutionary process. ...
http://www.granma.cu/granmad/secciones/reflexiones/ing-042.html
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)US forces stay on their base, per a legally binding treaty between the nations=invasion
Russian armed forces leave their bases, in blatant violation of their treaty, and use it to illegally steal land from Ukraine=totally not an invasion
That's the same logic that would lead a person to claim that those who believe Jews declared war on Germany in the early 20th Century aren't Jew-hating bigots.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)Namely, that the existence of Russian naval bases on the Crimean peninsula doesn't give the Russians carte blanche to send its troops into the entire peninsula, seize government buildings and Ukrainian military bases?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)http://sync.democraticunderground.com/1014881331#post31
About what one would expect from an apologist for fascist governments and Jew-hating websites.
pampango
(24,692 posts)government does not renew the lease on the US bases in Okinawa, the US will have no right to use their military personnel there (after removing their identifying patches, of course) to take control of the entire island of Okinawa in order to maintain those bases in perpetuity.
reorg
(3,317 posts)Japan and Germany are so-called "enemy states" mentioned in the UN Charter, which means that a UNSC resolution is not needed if any signee of the Charter, e.g. the US considers to take action against them. IOW it would be completely in line with the UN Charter if the US prevent a "reneal of aggressive policy" by Japan or Germany, say by way of taking control of the area where their military bases are located if and when the enemy states might want to throw them out.
1. The Security Council shall, where appropriate, utilize such regional arrangements or agencies for enforcement action under its authority. But no enforcement action shall be taken under regional arrangements or by regional agencies without the authorization of the Security Council, with the exception of measures against any enemy state, as defined in paragraph 2 of this Article, provided for pursuant to Article 107 or in regional arrangements directed against renewal of aggressive policy on the part of any such state, until such time as the Organization may, on request of the Governments concerned, be charged with the responsibility for preventing further aggression by such a state.
2. The term enemy state as used in paragraph 1 of this Article applies to any state which during the Second World War has been an enemy of any signatory of the present Charter.
http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter8.shtml
Another interesting aspect is your term "lease". As the Süddeutsche Zeitung informed its readers a while ago, the German government pays for about two thirds of all construction costs incurred by the American bases and a variety of other costs. They say Germany paid about 1 billion Euro in the last 10 years alone, while the 40,000 troops stationed here don't pay any taxes.
For the first 10 years, Germany had to pay for everything (4.5 billion DM yearly). After that, German had to pay part of the costs due to the NATO contract, and some murky agreements made in 1975. The used areas (with fences around them) are not "leased" by the US military, they are free: 53,870 ha (5798518541.4815 sq ft), 24,226 apartments.
EX500rider
(10,835 posts)The treaty stipulates that Republic of Cuba lease to the United States specific lands in Cuba, most notably the land that surrounds Guantánamo Bay, for the purpose of coaling and naval stations, for as long as necessary. The lease stipulates that the United States "shall exercise complete jurisdiction and control", while recognizing "the continuance of the ultimate sovereignty of the Republic of Cuba". Cuban vessels involved in trade will have free passage through the waters. The United States has the right to modify the waters as necessary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban%E2%80%93American_Treaty
Bad move on their part making it open ended and requiring both parties to dissolve.
But, what ya gonna do? Treaty is as treaty was written.
reorg
(3,317 posts)The Platt Amendment specified the terms under which the U.S. military occupation of Cuba would end and effectively relegated Cuba to the status of a U.S. protectorate.
http://www.fofweb.com/History/MainPrintPage.asp?iPin=EAFP338&DataType=AmericanHistory&WinType=Free
Might makes right.
EX500rider
(10,835 posts)....and wanted a naval base to coal ships from. What'd it cost us?
Spanish American War:
United States 2,910 dead
reorg
(3,317 posts)that Russia freed Crimea from Ukraine.
EX500rider
(10,835 posts)Ukraine being a imperialistic power in decline with colonies around the world just like Spain was.....oh wait, it's not like that at all..
reorg
(3,317 posts)that the Crimeans wanted to be liberated and become part of Russia whereas the Cubans had to be pressured with the threat of ongoing occupation until they finally capitulated and signed the damned paper which included the "lease" of Guantanamo.
http://www.pbs.org/crucible/tl18.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platt_Amendment
The first vote: 24 no : 2 yes
the second vote: 15 no : 14 yes
the final vote, after the US had threatened to occupy Cuba until the Platt Amendment was accepted: 16 yes :11 no.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Last edited Fri Sep 5, 2014, 06:11 PM - Edit history (1)
If you rent an apartment under lease, and the building is sold, your lease is still binding on the new owner, and as long as you abide by its terms, no grounds exist for a new owner to break it. The same applies between nations; a change in regime does not erase treaty obligations, nor debts, nor lease of territory or other rights. Mr. Castro may say anything he wants about the base being occupied or a usurpation or fruit of use of force over a century ago; it does not alter the case.
The Guantanamo lease is legally binding, so long as the United States abides by its terms, which require it to maintain the property and pay a certain yearly sum. If the new owner ( new regime ) does not want to cash the checks, that is their business, and does not affect the terms or legitimacy of the lease.
Russia's use of its base in Crimea had terms as well, among which was one that military forces were not to leave the base without consultation with Ukraine's authorities, and their permission. When Russian forces moved off the base regardless, they invaded Ukraine. There really is no serious argument about this; it is black-letter law.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)Additionally, the DOJ is going to tear the corruption apart bit by bit there.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Thank you for the heads-up, nationalize the fed. Odd how so many Democrats seemingly are unable to see how un-Democratic Empire and its sundry wars for profit are.
nationalize the fed
(2,169 posts)about the US spending $5 billion on a place they'll never visit.
Oh wait, there were only a few concerned with the $. A Billion here and a billion there, at least it isn't being borrowed. Oh wait, it is.
If the people don't care what happens to their money why should those that spend it? Maybe the ones that will have to deal with the consequences will care a bit more, or maybe not.
Thanks for giving a damn, Octafish. One of you makes up for at least a bakers dozen of the others.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)I know they're socialists, but...
Corporate corruption and academia: The Bush-Harvard-Enron connection
By Joseph Kay
wsws.org, 19 October 2002
EXCERPT...
One of these connections was to Harvard University, where Bush had received his MBA degree. Some months after Harken bought Spectrum 7, Harvard, together with the billionaire financier George Soros, poured money into Harken, which at the time was struggling to pay off loans to its main creditors, Bank of Boston and First City Bankcorp. First City agreed to refinance the loans, and, according to an article published in the Wall Street Journal on October 9, a key factor in the decision was the financial support provided by Harvard Management Corporation (HMC). HMC controls the universitys assets, valued at $20 billion.
Harvard quickly acquired a third of Harkens stock. Between 1987 and 2000, representatives of the university held positions on the companys board of directors, with seats on the executive and compensation committees. The universitys representatives were both heavily invested in the company personally, owning 10,000 shares of Harken each.
Harvards heavy investment in Harken is inexplicable except for the presence of Bush, who retained his position at Harken until 1993, when he became governor of Texas. Harken never sustained profitable operations, though it hoped to use Bushs connections to improve its financial state. Over the next five years, HMC had to bail out Harken in order forestall a number of severe crises. HMC was controlled at the time by Robert Stone, an oil man and long-time supporter of the Republican Party and Bushs father.
SNIP...
The deal has many similarities with the sort of structured finance arrangements that were made at Enron. The basic idea is to shift debt off of a companys balance sheet in order to improve reported earnings and elevate share values. Such partnerships were an important component of the accounting gimmicks widely used by American corporations during the stock market boom of the 1990s.
SNIP...
Finally, there is Lawrence Summers, who replaced Rubin as treasury secretary in 1999. Kenneth Lay sent a gushing congratulatory note to Summers, who responded with a promise that I'll keep my eye on power deregulation and energy-market infrastructure issues. When Bush came to office, Summers left government to become president of Harvard University.
CONTINUED...
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/10/hark-o19.html
...Maybe one day socialism in the United States of America will extend to those not in the upper class.
PS: Thank you for the kind words, nationalize the fed! Same back at ya!
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)For the sake of the anti-imperialist movement that grounds itself in facts, please stop repeating bullshit.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)And like zombies, the people who parrot them desperately need brains....
KoKo
(84,711 posts)nationalize the fed
(2,169 posts)where did the money go, or don't you care?
This is absurd to borrow $5b and spend it a place no one will visit.
Of course if you're R. Hunter Biden it's pretty cool.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)And that's all I'm going to say, because I'm really getting tired of even bothering to respond to shit like this.
JI7
(89,246 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)unrec