How Russia/Putin really feels about Nazis

[geek tragedy]

A lot of supporters of Putin's invasion of Ukraine like to scream "Nazi" about Ukraine because some fools there play the part.

How does Russia's government treat Nazis in countries it isn't invading.

Hungary:

In Hungary, for example, Putin has taken the Jobbik party under his wing. The third-largest party in the country, Jobbik has supporters who dress in Nazi-type uniforms, spout anti-Semitic rhetoric, and express concern about Israeli “colonization” of Hungary. The party has capitalized on rising support for nationalist economic policies, which are seen as an antidote for unpopular austerity policies and for Hungary’s economic liberalization in recent years. Russia is bent on tapping into that sentiment. In May 2013, Kremlin-connected right-wing Russian nationalists at the prestigious Moscow State University invited Jobbik party president Gabor Vona to speak. Vona also met with Russia Duma leaders including Ivan Grachev, chairman of the State Duma Committee for Energy and Vasily Tarasyuk, deputy chairman of the Committee on Natural Resources and Utilization, among others. On the Jobbik website, the visit is characterized as “a major breakthrough” which made “clear that Russian leaders consider Jobbik as a partner.” In fact, there have been persistent rumors that Jobbik’s enthusiasm is paid for with Russian rubles. The party has also repeatedly criticized Hungary’s “Euro-Atlantic connections” and the European Union. And, more recently, it called the referendum in Crimea “exemplary,” a dangerous word in a country with extensive co-ethnic populations in Romania and Slovakia. It seems that the party sees Putin’s new ethnic politics as being aligned with its own revisionist nationalism.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141067/mitchell-a-orenstein/putins-western-allies

Greece:

The list of parties goes on. Remember Golden Dawn, the Greek fascist party that won 18 seats in Greece’s parliament in 2012? Members use Nazi symbols at rallies, emphasize street fighting, and sing the Greek version of the Nazi Party anthem. The Greek government imprisoned Nikos Michaloliakos, its leader, and stripped parliamentary deputies of their political immunity before slapping them with charges of organized violence. But the party continues to take to the streets. Golden Dawn has never hidden its close connections to Russia’s extreme right, and is thought to receive funds from Russia. One Golden Dawn­­–linked website reports that Michaloliakos even received a letter in prison from Moscow State University professor and former Kremlin adviser Alexander Dugin, one of the authors of Putin’s “Eurasian” ideology. It was also Dugin who hosted Jobbik leader Vona when he visited Moscow. In his letter, Dugin expressed support for Golden Dawn’s geopolitical positions and requested to open a line of communication between Golden Dawn and his think tank in Moscow. Golden Dawn’s New York website reports that Michaloliakos “has spoken out clearly in favor of an alliance and cooperation with Russia, and away from the ‘naval forces’ of the ‘Atlantic.’”

Bulgaria:

Finally, a cable made public by WikiLeaks shows that Bulgaria’s far right Ataka party has close links to the Russian embassy. Reports that Russia funds Ataka have swirled for years, but have never been verified. But evidence of enthusiasm for Russia’s foreign policy goals is open for all to see. Radio Bulgaria reported on March 17 that Ataka’s parliamentary group “has insisted that Bulgaria should recognize the results from the referendum for Crimea’s joining to the Russian Federation.” Meanwhile, party leader Volen Siderov has called repeatedly for Bulgaria to veto EU economic sanctions for Russia.

And, here's a real shockeroo, guess who Putin hand-picked to rubber-stamp the sham vote in Crimea:

In addition to their very vocal support for Russia’s annexation of Crimea within the EU, Jobbik, National Front, and Ataka all sent election observers to validate the Crimea referendum (as did the Austrian Freedom Party, the Belgian Vlaams Belang party, Italy’s Forza Italia and Lega Nord, and Poland’s Self-Defense, in addition to a few far-left parties, conspicuously Germany’s Die Linke). Their showing was organized by the Russia-based Eurasian Observatory For Democracy & Elections, a far-right NGO “opposed to Western ideology.” The EODE specializes in monitoring elections in “self-proclaimed republics” (Abkhazia, Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh) allied with Moscow, according to its website.

Russia's government, as it turns out, only condemns Nazism when it provides cover to enact actual Nazi-like policies, such as invading one's neighbors.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

1. Those apologizing for this madman should know better but they don't care.

Sticking their thumb in the eye of the US / NATO is more important to them than any degree of intellectual curiosity or ethical consistency. Putin apologists have taken partisanship to a deranged, war-mongering level.

Now they're telling us that because Putin is willing to move around tactical nukes we should just roll over. Hey, it's just a few customs offices on the German-Austrian border; how bad could it possibly be? Hey, it's just the Rhineland; you're not going to get exercised over a sliver of land, are you? The Sudetenland? Crete? What are you, looking for a war or something?

[geek tragedy]

2. Tactical nukes? nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. Moving them, yes.

Russia Moves Tactical Nukes Closer to NATO. Gulp.

As recently as this spring, the Russians have moved their tactical nukes to sites close to their Western frontiers, alarming the Baltic and Eastern European members of NATO, the Wall Street Journal reports. Russia’s longstanding position is that it won’t pull its tactical nuclear weapons behind the Ural Mountains until the U.S. gets its own small nukes out of Europe. True totals of Russian tactical nuclear weapons is a tightly-held secret, but the Federation of American Scientists estimated last year that Moscow has nearly 5,400 of them, with about 2,000 deployed.

The Russian nuke movement isn’t expressly forbidden by prior nuclear treaties; and the Journal notes that it “appeared to coincide” with the arrival of NATO missile defense systems near Russia’s European borders. At the NATO summit in Lisbon this month, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev endorsed building a joint NATO-Russia missile defense system over the next ten years — a big NATO priority — but warned that if “universal” missile defense couldn’t be fielded, a “new round of arms race will start.” So it’s tense, but it’s not necessarily time to dig out that old Sting song out of the record crates.

http://www.wired.com/2010/11/russia-moves-small-nukes-closer-to-europe-gulp/

From this thread --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025499036

[Bodhi BloodWave]

25. Umm, silly question, why are we worried about news from 2010 now? n/t

[freshwest]

20. +1

[Dems to Win]

4. Fascists on side A, fascists on side B

I pick neither side.

I don't support Putin, I don't support the Azov Brigade, I don't support Svoboda, I don't support Right Sector.

Given that there are no good guys in this fight, I wish the US would stay out.

I am suspicious of US/NATO actions that provoked the Ukraine fight, and I feel for the people of Ukraine being played as pawns between powerful forces.

I'm still wondering who paid the black hooded snipers that created bloody chaos in Kiev and led to the overthrow of the elected government. If we knew who paid them, we'd have a much better understanding of who created this mess, and why.

[Igel]

9. There are never "good guys" making up either side.

That's sort of a problem, because then the "good side" is always the "side that serves my ends right now." You ignore problems in your clan that are odious in the other camp.

"The worst of my tribe is better than the best in your tribe." I've heard it said in other words by Democrats and by Republicans, by progressives and conservatives, by Americans and Canadians and Muslims and both tolerant and hateful fundies.

One of the "tricks" to put that into practice is to require that the other side be perfect. You forgive faults among allies; you exaggerate faults among enemies. Love is blind, and none is blinder than self-love, which usually extends to those that you think are like you. It makes demanding blind allegiance and purity purges obligatory. It's the flip side of "haters gonna hate."

It's a motivation for those who really side against the US to justify their position. The US isn't perfect. So they side with the other side--at least "I choose neither side" lacks that rather large ladle-full of hypocrisy.

However, not choosing over something that carries a rather large moral risk--whether it's Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, Iraq, or Ukraine--doesn't mean that there's no moral taint in not choosing. It just makes it no longer a potential sin of commission but a sin of omission. Letting the genocide occur in Rwanda was a sin of omission, if you want to use those terms. Not having a stand on apartheid in S. Africa was also a sin of omission. The moral taint is directly proportional to the ability to intervene and stop the problem, in saying "better that 10 000 of their kind die to save 10 of my kind."

This is an extreme stance against chauvinism and jingoism. Which is exactly what many say: "Help our own to be more well off before saving the lives of others. I don't want my kids to fight for others against oppression." Where would the US be with that kind of attitude? No abolitionism. No "march for freedom" and having civil rights workers travel to the South in the '60s to agitate for civil rights.

[William769]

5. Kick & very highly recommended.

And not surprised at all.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

6. Irrespective of how they feel about neo Nazi groups, I'm pretty sure Russia hates actual Nazis

The second World War gave them ample reason.

[geek tragedy]

7. 1939-1945 Nazis they hate.

The current incarnation are allies.

Any dispute between Russian fascists and Nazis is a turf battle, not an ideological disagreement.

[Igel]

10. What's an "actual Nazi"?

They're all 79 years old or older. The Nazi regime fell in 1945. I have trouble imaging that we'd call anybody under 10 at the time an "actual Nazi." So that's 1935. They'd be 79 this year--and that's stretching it. Really, nobody fears a handful of octagenarians.

Is an "actual Nazi" somebody who wants to gas Jews? Or just bash and blame them? Gays? Gypsies? Non-Aryans?

Somebody who believes in German expansionism?

Control over a capitalist society by a strong man and strong government?

Somebody who believes in the militarization and glorification of culture and society?

Define "Nazi." DU used to have people who would post long lists of necessary criteria for "fascist" and "Nazi." They've stopped, largely because they were pointless. You can't really define a general term from a specific example and that's what they did. They picked their definition to control the discussion and dictate terms to shut people up.


Russia likes dissing other nationalities. As long as you're subject to Russian culture in Russia, you're okay. Don't discuss federalization. Other nationalities are subject to constant abuse and bashing, whether verbally and discretely in the press or with cudgels on the street by skinheads. Seldom do attacks on non-Russian-citizens get prosecuted, definitely not like attacks on Russians by non-citizens. Russian culture and ethnicity good, all others inferior. Parallel to "Aryan." (Strictly speaking, there's more Aryan in Russians. Scythians and Sarmatians were Aryans. "Aryan" gives us the word "Iran.&quot

Russian press reports glowingly on upcoming military exercises. On new equipment. On new training procedures. On new military exports. We may hear about a military exercise, most often when somebody else takes offense or it serves some larger goal, but they're reported on extensively in Russia. Even routine ones in the middle of nowhere and of no interest no anybody.

Russia's about expansion. If not of the borders themselves, then of control and domination. Lebensraum.

Russia has oligarchs just as before. Except that they're on a leash. Controlled by a centralized government.

So on and so forth. The problem with "Nazis" is that they're pro-German and anti-Russian. In Ukraine, the problem isn't that they're "pro-German"; the historical background is that they were pro-German because they were anti-Russian (the "Ukrainian fascists" in the '40s wanted independence, not German domination, and split over precisely that). Their real sin was fighting Russia on Ukrainian soil and continuing the fight against Russia on Ukrainian soil.

Note that the "SS" insigna taken over by Svoboda is a "wolf-hook," long preceding fascism in Germany by a couple thousand years but used in a story that fascists liked years after it was written. It gave rise to the entire "wolf"-genre in Nazi propaganda and naming. So the biker gang that Putin has no problem with may use a swastika, but they're called the "Night Wolves." Continuing the Nazi wolf-motif even as it takes an Indo-Aryan symbol, the swastika, as its own.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

11. An actual Nazi is a member of the German Nazi party pre-1945. nt

[NuclearDem]

13. Only after they invaded.

The Soviets had no problem signing a nonaggression pact with them beforehand.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

14. True enough. Barbarossa changed all that. Hitler made a huge mistake with that.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

18. Or dividing Poland. nt

[LeftyMom]

37. The gap between Golden Dawn and Actual Nazis (TM) is so narrow it's watertight.

History is weirder and more complicated than you're giving it credit for.

[SidDithers]

8. The Putin-supporting fringe left won't like these facts...nt

Sid

[Scootaloo]

12. "A lot of supporters" - of which there are four on DU?

Tell me about the war on christmas next!

[geek tragedy]

15. At least 10. Pro-Kremlin posts regularly make the

greatest page. They never get very high because the Putinistas are still a fringe minority.

[Scootaloo]

16. No, no, I got you and a bunch of other Moral Panic posters together.

We counted a total of six, of whom one no longer posts, and another is actually just doing the devil's advocate thing.

Out of how many hundreds - thousands? - of people on DU/

[geek tragedy]

17. I can PM more names than that.

For obvious reasons not gonna do so in a post.

[eridani]

22. Here's a clue for you

Being agaisnt imperialism isn't the same as being for the other side. People who insist otherwise are not the slightest bit different from those who hollered "Saddam lover" at opponents of the Iraq war.

[geek tragedy]

23. When people justify imperialism under

the guise of opposing imperialism . . .

[eridani]

32. I'm against the biggest imperialist

When Putin has 800+ military bases in 100 countries, get back to me.

[geek tragedy]

33. So, Putin was just Standing His Ground. nt

[eridani]

34. When he has military bases in 100 countries, get back to me n/t

[geek tragedy]

35. Not a valid justification for his own imperial aggression.

And, no, just because the US has acted imperialistically does not mean Russia is not behaving imperialistically. Simple logic.

[eridani]

38. Only if eastern Ukraine splits and becomes part of the Russian Federation

If the east just gets greater autonomy, it's nothing but what they deserve.

[geek tragedy]

39. By that definition the US hasn't been

imperialistic for over a century.

[eridani]

40. What about all those military bases? Where is the Russian equivalent? n/t

[geek tragedy]

41. Red herring. Kindly tell us how Russia

engaging in military aggression in order to conquer territory from its neighbors, and its further attempts to bully and intimidate other neighbors to the point of controlling them, is not imperialism.

[eridani]

42. You know it'c conquest because why?

And how does the world's largest known empire in history have the standing to say anything about aggression?

[geek tragedy]

43. Because they used military force to take land away from one state

and add it to their own. That's pretty much the definition of conquest.

Largest contiguous empire in history was the USSR. The US is not an actual empire, that's merely a metaphor for its global influence.

[eridani]

44. It used to be an empire until they figured out they couldn't afford it anymore

They took Crimea away from one state and gave it to another in 1956--with no vote. They reversed the procedure this year with a vote. Military dominance is imperialism, period. By that definition the US is an empire.

[geek tragedy]

45. No, it was reversed via invasion, not vote.

State boundaries were redrawn from the barrel of the Russian army's guns, not the ballot box.

Having the most powerful military is not imperialism. The US is hardly dominant militarily--haven't won a meaningful conflict since Korea.

[eridani]

47. What do you call 800 military bases in 100 countries?

Where is the Russian equivalent?

Crimea did in fact have a referendum, but 30% turnout made the result something of a joke. In the WA State August primary in south King County, turnout averaged 24 %. Joke or not, the results determined who is going on to the general election.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/05/06/russian-government-agency-reveals-fraudulent-nature-of-the-crimean-referendum-results/

[geek tragedy]

48. Was Washington under military occupation

by the beneficiary of that vote?

[eridani]

49. If you count up all the military bases in the US, are we under military occupation? n/t

[geek tragedy]

50. No. nt

[eridani]

52. Then neither is Crimea

It's been part of Russia for most of its existence as a state. Conquered of course--just like How the West Was Won here.

[geek tragedy]

56. you are a bit confused as to what a military occupation means.

When a military actively displaces civilian law enforcement of the rightful sovereign, that is a military occupation.

Crimea was under foreign military occupation when that referendum was held, just as much as the West Bank is under foreign military occupation.

[Iterate]

19. 'Novorossiya' Conference In Yalta This Weekend With European Neo-Nazi Speakers

17:26 (GMT)

A conference is being held this weekend in Yalta, Russian-occupied Crimea, titled "Russia, Ukraine, Novorossia: Global Problems and Challenges."

The conference is due to be attended by numerous separatist leaders, including Aleksandr Boroday.

It had been reported that Igor Girkin, aka Strelkov, had been due to speak. However Anatoly El Murid, a Russian political theorist, posted a photo of himself in Russia with Girkin today on his blog, saying that the Russian separatist leader had only found out that his name had been connected to the event today. He says that Strelkov's name had been used by the organisers for their own purposes.



Interestingly, according to Anton Shekhovstov, an expert on Europe's extreme right, the conference is due to be attended by a number of prominent European far right figures.

He lists them thus:

Frank Creyelman (far right Vlaams Belang, Belgium)
Luc Michel (neo-Nazi Parti Communautaire National-Européen, Belgium)
Pavel Chernev (far right Ataka, Bulgaria)
Angel Djambazki (far right Bulgarsko Natsionalno Dvizhenie, Bulgaria)
Erkki Johan Bäckman (neo-Stalinist, Finland)
Márton Gyöngyösi (fascist Jobbik, Hungary)
Giovanni Maria Camillacci (far right Lega Nord, Italy)
Roberto Fiore (fascist Forza Nuova, Italy)
Mateusz Piskorski (far right Samooborona, Poland)
Konrad Rękas (far right Samooborona, Poland)
Bartosz Bekier (neo-Nazi Falanga, Poland)
Nick Griffin (fascist British National Party, UK)

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-194-humanitarian-corridor-uncertain-for-evacuation-of-ukrainian-soldiers/#4052

I'm sure a good time was had by all. Marine Le Pen seems to have missed it, but didn't let the weekend go by without saying that 'the crisis in Ukraine is all the EU's fault', which is hard to square with both the cautious EU state responses and the overt support of the far right fringe for the Russian interference in Ukrainian electoral politics, the two Russian invasions and the Russian annexation.

[The Magistrate]

54. Quite A Rogues Gallery Of Neo-Nazis, Sir

[stevenleser]

21. One of several pathetic lies told by Putin's government and parroted by Putinistas on the internet

It's very sad to see that kind of nonsense regurgitated here.

Good OP.

[JEB]

24. As far as I can tell there is not a whit of difference

between Russia and the USA. Both operate a government that services corporate crony capitalist fascism. Either country will fund and arm extremist groups or governments when it suits their purposes. Corrupt governments competing for resources and the common people will suffer.

edit to add:
Kind of like our elections, one can argue about which is the lesser of two evils.

[geek tragedy]

26. Double face palm.

1) if you cannot discern one whit of difference between the US and Russia, that is to profess an astonishing lack of knowledge about both countries;

2) there is no argument amongst rational people which party in the US is preferable to the other. There is a right answer and a wrong answer. People who claim the Republicans are the lesser evil are colloquially referred to as "trolls" here

[JEB]

29. Repukes are obviously the greater evil.

As for which country is the greater evil, it depends on which end of their business you are on. Which country executes wars of aggression based on lies? Which country tortures and fails to hold the perps accountable? Which country allows its police to kill with impunity? Which country is an obvious oligarchy? Plant your face in those palms.

[geek tragedy]

30. I dunno, why don't you organize a pride

march in Moscow and tell us how they're exactly the same.

[JEB]

31. Or Saudi Arabia, one of our favorite allies.

Look, I am not claiming that Russia is a liberal mecca. I'm saying we need to clean up our own house before we demonize another country in a jingoistic fever. That is the Neocon playbook.

[R3druM]

27. It needs to be repeated...

[url=http://postimage.org/][img][/img][/url]
[url=http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=russian][/url]

[Cha]

28. Of course he has..

"Putin has taken the Jobbik party under his wing. The third-largest party in the country, Jobbik has supporters who dress in Nazi-type uniforms, spout anti-Semitic rhetoric, and express concern about Israeli “colonization” of Hungary"

Thanks for documentation, geek.

[Major Hogwash]

36. Great exposure of Putin.

Or, "Pooty-poot" as George W. Bush used to refer to him.

[mythology]

46. Well, once you've looked into a man's eyes and seen his soul

you can come up with such adorable nicknames.

[Lithos]

51. Sad, isn't it?

He's been doing it for several years as each party started their rise to power. I suspect some of their funding has also quietly come from him as well. Vona for instance did a trip to Moscow over a year ago before his party's big gains this year.

L-

[The Magistrate]

53. It Certainly Is, Sir

Sad that these parties get such support and, locally, sad that so many here turn a blind eye to it.

[geek tragedy]

57. He hides these things in plain sight. Discretion nowhere nearly effective

as a state media apparatus.

[The Magistrate]

55. Good Work Pulling All This Together In One Place, Sir