For those of you wondering why they didn't use Planned Parenthood for their abortion

[xmas74]

instead of ordering pills online:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5499747

You do realize that most PP clinics do not offer abortions, don't you? They offer referrals. They tell you that yep, you're pregnant and then wait for you to ask about abortion (since in some areas they cannot even use the word unless you ask first). if you state that you want one they will tell you the nearest place to obtain one and give you a ball park range of what it might cost. (Somewhere between $400 and $1300 and most insurance wouldn't dream of covering it, nor would there be a payment plan. That's all cash up-front.) They might set up an appointment for you but maybe not, since most of PP appointments can now be set up online for their services.

And who knows how far you'll have to drive? In my state I'd have to driver four hours to St Louis and if the state GOP gets their wish there will be a 72 hour wait for the procedure. It's actually closer for me to drive to Kansas but that can get tricky with a minor going over state lines.

Yes, the mother in the link should have had her daughter examined by a doctor when there were complications present but I understand the ordering of the pills overall. They were probably cheaper and more convenient. Pp isn't that convenient for many rural people. I support them and I've donated to them in the past but they aren't always available to every woman that needs them and finding one that performs an abortion procedure is even harder than everyone thinks. At least the pills were a better option than some offered in the past: coat hangers, knitting needles, Drano douches (yep, knew someone who did it) and the ever popular (even to this day) flinging yourself down the stairs at the high school or college football stadium. It's hard enough to obtain an abortion for women in the U.S. but everyone, including posters here at DU, forget how hard it really is on rural women. Many still make do with what is available.

[brer cat]

1. This is an important post.

So many people act like obtaining abortion services is just a walk down the street. In much of America, it is difficult and prohibitively expensive. It is horrifying for those of us who lived through the days of coat hangers, knitting needles and Drano douches.

Thanks xmas74. K&R

[xmas74]

2. I saw a Drano douche 23 years ago.

I worked with a girl who threw herself down the football stadium stairs-repeatedly- three years ago. She had a miscarriage but she also cracked a rib and broke her collarbone.

It's not the past. It still happens. No one wants to talk about it.

[Arkansas Granny]

4. And it will happen more often if the so-called "pro-life" bunch gets their way.

[xmas74]

6. You're one of the bordering states.

You know what's up in our neck of the woods.

[Arkansas Granny]

21. Yep. Arkansas passed some very restrictive measure on abortion that have been put on hold

by the courts as being unconstitutional.

[xmas74]

29. I hope it happens here.

Nixon vetoed the initial 72 hour (yep, the Nixon everyone here seems to hate right now) but the GOP is planning on pushing it through anyway.

Here's hoping someone steps in and sues their butts off.

[Jester Messiah]

158. Oddly enough they always seem to make exceptions for their own daughters who "get in trouble"

It's the hypocrisy that burns me up most of all.

[Wounded Bear]

3. The RW shame-o-sphere has so misled their constituents...

that most don't know what you're talking about. After all, Rush said it, it must be true.

You're preaching to the choir here, but hopefully, somebody who needs this info gets it. Treatment of women in this country is abhorrent to most anybody with some real empathy.

[xmas74]

5. Look through the link I provided above

and there are a few wanting to know why she just didn't pop over to the nearest PP (which was 75 miles from home) and have it done. It was made to sound like buying a gallon of milk at the local Quik Mart on the way home from work.

I'm at an age where I really don't have to worry about needing the procedure for myself. (I had a hot flash the other day and realized that's what was waking me up at night. Doctor's office says it's early menopause but I have an appointment in a couple of weeks for tests.) Even though I have little to worry about I worry about others, including my daughter.

[Wounded Bear]

8. I, too have a daughter...

so I worry for her rights going forward. She's had two children and I don't know if she wants more. It's her decision, of course, along with her husband. But it's a basic human rights issue to me.

[xmas74]

9. Same here

but my child is still in high school. She hasn't even made it to the stage of deciding whether or not she wants children. I want her to have access to everything that will assist her in making that decision for herself.

It's a basic human right and it's being denied.

[rbrnmw]

38. I have 2 daughters and we live in Ohio

The laws here make it almost impossible to have a safe abortion.

[riqster]

41. Likewise. And because of crap organization, it looks like Dems will lose again.

[rbrnmw]

42. yep 4 more years of Kasuck

I despise that man Our Dem HQ's isn't even open yet I've been calling and calling Dems around here but nothing much going on yet. I will do everything and anything they want. I wish there was more going on but there isn't yet.

[riqster]

105. It's just job security for Redfern. Ohio's Dem party sucks.

Last edited Sun Sep 7, 2014, 05:27 PM - Edit history (1)

[xmas74]

45. The laws here are the same.

It's awful.

[mopinko]

7. back in the days of coathangers

docs would have just taken care of this child, and that would have been that.
they never chased men who did this for money. why are they putting this mom in prison?
i mean, really. ffs.
she did the right thing. she took her for help.

you are right. this is the wrong end of the problem to be attacking.

[xmas74]

10. She did the best she could with a crappy situation.

Maybe she should have been seen a bit earlier instead of waiting but I understand the fear. They are rural people and if the doctor was local they'd have to worry about everyone knowing about the girl. All it takes is one gossipy receptionist in a practice and everyone knows everyone's business. Gossip of that nature can still ruin a girl in a small town.

[mopinko]

11. i just wanna scream, tho. shit.

sounds like 50 years ago in my small town. makes me

[xmas74]

13. Same here.

Sounds like every day in my town. I understand why someone would want to order pills online: cheaper, quicker and more confidential.

[mopinko]

27. yeah, instead of laws requiring admitting privileges for clinic docs how bout

laws requiring treatment for complications of abortions of any kind with complete medical privacy? how bout that, instead.

that is a hot button w me because i had home births, and they pull the same bullshit there. they pretend you have to have a hospital affiliated doc of your own, as tho they would turn you away from the er.

[xmas74]

61. A midwife could perform a low risk abortion

and there's no reason why this isn't allowed, except that it would allow far more availability to poor women in rural areas.

Abortion should be safe, available, on demand and kept confidential if the patient chooses. It shouldn't be turned into something that is beyond the reach of many American women.

[mopinko]

122. you got that. especially

since they make midwives study far beyond what they need, just to discourage them.
nurses made up a big part of the underground abortion network back in the day.

doc's offices, too. i had a miscarriage gone bad at the hospital and they thereafter did d&c's in their own office. they could have done abortions too, but they didn't to my knowledge.

[xmas74]

139. I suspect some still do it

but keep it on the down low. When I was younger we all knew of a doctor who would perform them in his office "with good reason". Basically you had to go in, tell him you wanted one done and why. I knew a couple of women who had it done and they said it was inexpensive and he took care of his patients. They also said that he prescribed some form of bc after each procedure. He never described how far along they were or what have you; he just wanted to know that you were making the decision that was best for you and not what someone else wanted. He was just an old country doctor with a small office connected to his home.

Maybe what we need are more of those old country doctors.

[Ms. Toad]

146. Not necessarily.

You need to be a little cautious. The term "midwife" has lots of meaning - and around here there are a fair number of lay midwives with absolutely no medical training.

[xmas74]

150. I do forget about that sometimes.

In my state they are CNM so I never think about the lay midwives.

[Ms. Toad]

151. We attended prenatal classes with a lay midwife &

picked our doctor out because he was the only doctor in town willing to work with a midwife planning an at home birth. We didn't want an at home birth, but we wanted to have as few medical interventions as possible and figured anyone willing to work with a lay midwife would also be willing to minimize medical interventions. Unfortunately, my daughter had other ideas . . . she didn't want so smoosh her pretty face, and I had to have a cesarean.

The most interesting part of the entire experience was the fact that the midwife (most of them in our area) was a fundamentalist Christian, anti-abortion, character...and there we sat...a lesbian couple about to give birth...I love expanding their minds by exposing them to new ideas.

[xmas74]

152. Those are the only lay midwives I know of in my area

are fundamentalist Christians so I don't even think about them.

I had a c-section with my daughter so I know what it's like.

[Ms. Toad]

153. There are actually two groups around here

fundamentalist Christians, and flower children who never left the 70s. I'm in the latter camp, but couldn't find any midwives in that category.

[xmas74]

160. I'm in Missouri

so it's mostly fundamentalist Christians.

[mopinko]

156. my docs had a solid foundation in the orthodox jewish community.

lots of big families, and sects that disapproved of hospitals.
lubovitchers, etc.
a big population here

[greatlaurel]

12. Even if you have insurance, using insurance can be risky if your employer finds out.

Yeah, I know HIPPA protects a patient's privacy, but employers know what procedures are being used. What a mess we are in. I remember the old days when abortion was illegal. Now, the religious nuts have taken us back there.

[xmas74]

14. Yep.

It's insane.

[Ms. Toad]

148. Employers do NOT legally know what procedures are being use.

We had an MRA package with our policy at my last workplace (medical reimbursement account). In order to comply with HIPAA, our reimbursements had to be submitted to the insurance broker, and ONLY the dollar amount to be reimbursed was provided to the employer. (That's not only the law, I also saw the reports and verified that is what was being provided.)

[BrotherIvan]

15. K&R

That's why it is important for reproductive services to be available and affordable. That is what the fundagelicals are slowly chipping away at. People really do need to fight back.

[xmas74]

16. Yet so few are.

We take it for granted that it's available-unless it's not, in the case of millions of rural American women. I know where to go but many don't and some have doctors who would never, ever tell them.

Hell, I live in a state where a pharmacist can refuse to fill a prescription for birth control so why would they make it easy to obtain a surgical procedure?

[BrotherIvan]

19. The anti-abortion campaign is a huge win for the right

They have been very very successful in so many ways. They have put the image in people's minds that having an abortion is killing a baby. I've witnessed it quite a lot even on DU from people who don't think they are anti-choice but still parrot the false rhetoric. There needs to be much more education on what abortion truly is.

Then we have seen both Democrats and Republicans chip away at abortion rights. Republicans are always worse, but Democrats have been enabling them by first signing bills that separated out abortion from health insurance for federal funds(thereby acknowledging the lie that an abortion is separate from basic medical care and that it is somehow abhorrent) to allowing accommodations for woman-hating religious organizations that led to the Hobby Lobby case.

If people don't stop it now by DEMANDING their leaders be pro-choice, then we will lose the right in this country. Usually that means voting for the Democrat, but not always. Many Democrats aren't anti-abortion, but don't actively support choice and that is leading to the erosion of important, basic RIGHTS. Just like the right demands that all their candidates declare their anti-abortion stance, we should make our candidates state their pro-choice stance and then vote accordingly. If they don't, they will not be reelected because it is that important.

And then people need to either stop their support for their religious institutions that are actively working to erase women's rights. One of the biggest of those has a rather liberal makeup of members but a hard right hierarchy who does quite the opposite: the Catholic Church. The same as citizens, pro-choice people need to let it be known that they will not support a candidate, institution or church with money or time who does not believe in equality for women. By filling the coffers of bigoted institutions, that money is used to take away women's access to very necessary medical care.

[xmas74]

25. You said it better than I ever could.

Everything.

[calimary]

157. Or me. Absolutely. I seriously fear our rights are on the ropes.

Or getting there fast.

Because nobody gives enough of a damn to stand up to the enemy on this. The politicians don't do it, and not enough of the voters bother, either. For too many it's just not a priority anymore. For too many young women oblivious of the fight and the struggle and the bloodshed and death that happened before Roe v Wade, it's a right they simply take for granted. Too many think we're just having some sort of hysterics or we're exaggerating when we warn them that the right to have the last word over your own body is steadily being chipped away by a VERY resolute and determined enemy, and the lack of much forceful defense from our side. They think we're worrying for no reason! That's silly! Nuthin's gunna happen, they say. S'Not gonna happen. They don't assume anything will ever happen. We're just one Supreme Court justice away from it now, and just one presidential term away from it now.

It is utterly maddening to me to think of how many people just won't bother to go vote this fall. For WHATEVER reason. MADDENING! Hey, NOW it's women's rights. Rest assured if they kill ours, they're going to be coming after YOURS, NEXT. They won't be satisfied just with taking women's rights away, I guarantee you.

Really certain you won't bother voting this time? That's something you can ask someone you know who decides to sit this one out for WHATEVER reason. Teach Obama a lesson. Say pox on both their houses. Shrug that they're all the same, none of them pure, all of them contaminated.

[davidpdx]

64. We need to fight hard to undo all of the draconian measures the Republicans have gotten passed

In the last 10 years or so at the federal, state, and local level. If we don't it will get harder and harder for women to get access to these services.

[Small Accumulates]

17. That thread is a privileged peoples' parade of ignorance

I'm constantly astonished by the strength of some folks' unwillingness to see others' plights with some degree of compassion. I must remind myself, just as constantly, that they are operating from fear, a fear that insists they could never find themselves lacking money, without safe recourse, and quickly losing control of their lives. Because to face that fear is unthinkable; and so they must transform this poor woman into an "other," lock her away and throw away the key. Never mind the damage that is done to these people's lives. My heart goes out to this woman and her daughter.

[xmas74]

18. As does mine.

I look at her, a low wage earner in a small town with a teenage daughter and all I can think is "There but for the Grace of God..."

That woman could easily be me. I don't know what I'd do if I had to get that much money together all at once, take the time off of work for the procedure and recovery along with travel expenses and still deal with paying the bills. Add to that the stress of it being her teenage daughter instead of her and it's just a mess.

People truly don't realize how hard it is on small town women to get the procedures that they need done.

[BrotherIvan]

20. A rec for both of your posts

That was my takeaway as well. I hope people will read your thread and educate themselves.

[xmas74]

26. You also realize that the mother in the other thread will now never be able to work in her field

again? She was a nurse's aide and she has what can be boiled down to a neglect charge. No one will ever hire her with that in her background to work as a CNA ever again.

So now what happens to her after she serves her time? She gets out and she can't find a job with her training to support herself and her family. More punishment for something that should have been readily available to her and her daughter.

[BrotherIvan]

36. Just awful

So many lives have been ruined or lost for this insane crusade. When are we going to let people, including women, make their own decisions? It is absolute madness. I hope for the best for that woman and her daughter, but the outlook is very bleak.

[xmas74]

40. It's a mess she'll never be able

to dig herself out of. It's pathetic.

She'll be a fast food employee soon because that's all she be able to do.

[kcr]

104. My attempt to educated resulted in being told I was too emotional

They simply refuse to see it. Like someone else said, the reality is just too frightening.

[BrotherIvan]

133. Too many people think that abortion will never effect them

It's a question the majority of men never think about until it effects them. They may also not know if a woman in their own lives has chosen to abort. Most often, they don't care either way. That leaves quite a bit of room for religious crazies to maneuver. And make no mistake about it, except for the true zealots like perhaps Santorum, most pols could care less. It's a way to mobilize the base, that's all.

The women who are anti-abortion have been given false information their entire lives. And again, when faced with that decision, some do choose to abort and then turn around and then want to take that choice away from other women.

The anti-abortion crowd spreads lies that abortions will make a woman sterile or cause breast cancer and they've been very successful. But the staunchest pro-choice women I know are mothers. They might have been on the fence about what they might do, but once they had children, they realized what a *life-changing* experience it is and that EVERY woman should be ready and willing to be a parent.

Anyone who doesn't get that is severely stupid.

[gollygee]

33. +1

and a kick for the thread.

[LeftyMom]

22. In my state (California) PP would do it on site within a week and the state would pay for it.

The rest of the country needs to get it's shit together.

[xmas74]

28. I wish!

I live in a college town. We have a PP here but they only do referrrals-either to the one across the other side of the state or the one over the state line. We have a few "alternatives" here that, imo, basically work as headhunters for adoption agencies. From what I've heard they get the girls in, give them a pregnancy test and then tell them all kinds of half-ass untruths. They help them initially get set up with an agency who them convinces them that, being unwed students or poor women, they are unfit to be mothers and that there are plenty of rich families who'd love nothing better than a little white baby to spoil rotten. (You don't hear them making a fuss about minorities.)

It's crazy around here.

[LeftyMom]

32. Abortion rights actually expanded here legally this year.

Because we do have a rural access problem (California is big and most of it is sparsely populated farm country, after all) for health care of all sorts, there was a study permitted by the state for the last few years to see if Nurse Practitioners, Certified Nurse Midwives, etc could safely function as abortion providers. It turns out, to nobody's particular surprise (it's a simple enough thing) that they can do so as safely as MDs, so a permanent law allowing them to do so was signed this year.

Free birth control, STD testing and annual exams are available here and the eligibility form is one page long and done in the waiting room of the doctor's office.

Not many protestors here either. I think during 40 Days of Yelling At Clinics the local clinic might have had 8 or 10 at most, but most weekends when I go by I see 4.

[xmas74]

35. We have regular protestors at my local PP

and they don't even provide abortions, just referrals. Always the same one or two dozen people driving in (not locals-not always even state license plates on their vehicles), always the same signs, always the same chants.

Whenever I have a really bad day I sometimes drive over and challenge the protestors. Most seem to think that they actually provide abortions there. Turns out a church back home told them that they give abortions for free to the college kids and the military.

[beam me up scottie]

44. LMAO! "Whenever I have a really bad day I sometimes drive over and challenge the protestors."

I want to drive over them all of the time!

[xmas74]

52. I've invited a few in for my pap smear

and then remind them that, oh yeah, you can't actually walk on grounds.

A year ago I had an appointment and pulled in the lot. One man kept yelling at me and, once again, I invited him along for my pap smear. He walked onto the lot, leaned on my car and stuck his head in my window. With my other hand I speed dialed the PP office and loudly repeated everything he said, including how he was actually on the lot and pressed up against my car as a means of not allowing me out. The receptionist understood immediately and the police were there within a couple of minutes. I actually had a police escort in to my appointment that day.

Now, every time that same group is out there and they see me pull up in the lot they all stop, look at their feet and take a few more steps back.

I really wanted to punch that guy. He was every bit of 350, wearing a Royals t shirt stained with something brown and something orange (my guess: Cheetoes and Dr Pepper), greasy hair, misspelled sign and referred to me as "baby" and "sweetie" and tried to reach for my hand so we "could pray". That day I was scared, now I argue back.

[beam me up scottie]

56. "That day I was scared, now I argue back."

You are their worst nightmare and my new hero.

[xmas74]

57. Vaginas frighten them.

Always have, always will.

And I don't think a single damn one of them knows what a pap smear is for. One once argued with me about it being a service needed before an abortion.

[beam me up scottie]

63. That's one of the worst things about closing clinics,

poor women go there for exams, std/cancer screenings and birth control they couldn't otherwise afford.
They also provide critical information we need to know to stay healthy and alive.

The state health department here offers some of those services but they are only open two days a month.

Women are DYING because they don't have access to preventative care.

[xmas74]

65. Our local health department doesn't offer those services at all.

I hate to think of what will happen if the local PP closes its doors.

[beam me up scottie]

70. They don't advertise it here, it's not even listed in the phone book.

They are located in an abandoned hospital with no security, the safety of the patients and staff isn't a consideration when it comes to budget cuts.

[xmas74]

76. Awful.

Someone will get hurt.

[beam me up scottie]

112. Those women were some of the most courageous and dedicated medical professionals I've ever met.

They did everything in their very limited power to help women.

[xmas74]

116. They did everything they could.

The worst part is that it never should have had to happen.

It's a healthcare decision that shouldn't be relegated to back rooms, basements and abandoned buildings. It sound be available at the local doctor's office and treated like any other routine procedure.

[suffragette]

23. Thank you for making these points

I think Planned Parenthood has been providing amazing services in the most hostile of environments, but even they can not do it all by themselves.
And, as you note, distance becomes more of a barrier for people in rural areas. Doubly so for those with lower incomes. And a lower income job usually means an additional penalty of losing income for taking time off.
This goes for access to pharmacies as well.

[xmas74]

30. Several years ago I was switched to a dose

to help with menstrual problems. I took my prescription to a smaller pharmacy that I'd other prescriptions filled and had always liked. (Support the local business owners and all.) The pharmacist refused to fill them and instead gave me a lecture about them being an affront to God and since I wasn't married it was even worse. I looked him square in the eye and made the comment about how it was to keep me from going through menopause too soon, which would mean I'd never have another child again and that it was none of his business anyway. I walked out and had to fill them at Walmart. (The place DUers hate the most was my option that was open.)

I've never been back to that pharmacy.

[suffragette]

50. Sad you had to go through that

But glad you were able to find another option. Even if it was Walmart and goodness knows I hate that place and what it has done to communities.
The pharmacy issue is a huge one and one that elicits many similar responses of 'just go to another one' here.
I live in a city and would not have that problem. But I will continue to advocate for my rural sisters to not have to face that problem either.

[xmas74]

54. Thanks.

I made him look like an idiot that day. Someone in the store made a comment about how dumb he was and why not just fill the prescription. The best part was that it was an old farmer, the type that runs towards super conservative. He actually said that I was paying for my prescription and that he (the pharmacist) wasn't my doctor so he just needed to shut it and do his job. He also said he was sick and tired of everyone in everyone's business and not minding their own.

That was the best part of the day. That, and at least I had Walmart. Some don't even have that.

[Heidi]

24. Kick, kick, kick!!!

[xmas74]

31. Thank you nt

[suffragette]

51. Hug, hug, hug

And

[avebury]

34. Mail order abortion may become the methodolgy of the future

if countries (including the US) continue to take steps to prevent women from asserting their right to reproductive freedom.

http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-08-29/dutch-physician-making-abortion-drugs-more-accessible-women-around-world-mail

Almost 40 percent of the world’s population lives in countries where abortion is either banned or severely restricted.

Dr. Rebecca Gomperts, a physician and activist, is taking it upon herself to change that statistic by providing access to a combination of abortion drugs that women can administer themselves. Her Amsterdam-based organization is called Women on Web. Started almost a decade ago, it’s a “telemedicine support service” for women who are seeking medical abortions.

“Women all over the world who live in countries where abortion is illegal or very restricted can write in to the help desk of her organization and get connected with a doctor who will write a prescription [for abortion drugs,]” says Bazelon.

The medication prescribed by the doctors of Women on Web both terminates a fetus and causes a woman to expel a fetus. Bazelon says these prescriptions are filled by an Indian-based drug exporter, and Gomperts contends that the medication provided by the exporter is safe and has been verified for quality.

“Research shows that [the medication] is very effective — up to 98 percent effective in the first trimester, and that they’re safe relative to other types of procedures and relative to giving birth,” Bazelon says.

According to Bazelon, the medication provided by Women on Web essentially induces a miscarriage.

“For all of time, women have been naturally miscarrying by themselves,” says Bazelon. “If it’s really early in the pregnancy, sometimes it isn’t physically difficult. Other times, it can be painful and take place over hours and be a hard thing to go through.”

From India, the medication is shipped to women all over the world. In addition to the medication, Women on Web provides information to women on what they can expect to experience after the drugs are taken. Bazelon says that Gomperts has also done the research to make sure her organization is operating legally.“

[xmas74]

46. Mail order would certainly be easier than

traveling four hours and taking several days off of work.

[Avalux]

60. Sure it's easier, but at what cost?

One drug disrupts the woman's hormones and causes her to expel the contents of her uterus. The other causes her cervix to soften and open slightly so that the content can pass through. Most of the time this process works well, but sometimes there are complications. If the contents are too large to pass through they may stay where they are, decaying. This can cause infection and other serious problems, like blood loss.

There is a reason these drugs, which equal a medical procedure, are given under a doctor's supervision - to protect the patient. It's not just taking a pill and that's it - easy!

The inability of people to separate patient safety from the abortion issue is mind-boggling. Do you agree that unqualified people should be able to perform medical procedures? The argument that abortion services may not have been available doesn't justify the mother's actions. She endangered her child's life.

[xmas74]

62. Then why not make it more readily available?

Why not make it available at any doctor's office, instead of having to drive for several hours? Why make it so hard to obtain this procedure?

Chances are she obtained the pills and gave them to her daughter, not knowing the risk. Once things started going south she might have been afraid to take her daughter to the local ER for fear of small town gossip. (Think it doesn't exist? It does and something like an abortion is enough to socially ruin a young girl's life.)

Look, as a mother I know that we do what we think is best for our child. Sometimes it's not but the fact remains that it's becoming harder by the day for many to obtain legal abortions. With the way things are going it'll be harder to get legal abortions and mail order pills will become more common. Heck, it's got to be better than a Drano douche.

[Avalux]

67. Now you're making sense.

That's precisely what we need to push for - making these drugs more readily available to women who want an medical abortion. They're legal by prescription with follow-up to ensure they worked properly. There's no reason why more docs shouldn't offer them, except for anti-choice laws and societal pressure.

And that's what we can change. Access.

Then women won't be put in a position where they would consider taking a mail order drug obtained illegally.

[xmas74]

69. Access would be good

but for now it's just not available,which is why this will become more of an option for some in the future.

I didn't say it was a good option. I just said I understood why some would go with that option. The sheer amount of money for the procedure, the travel and time off of work is just too much for some.

[Avalux]

74. I'd take the time off work and make the drive.

And before you accuse me of not understanding, I've lived i poverty; I've taken care of 3 daughters with very little. I would sell what I have, take time off work, and make the drive even if I lost my job because it's the best and safest way to care for my child.

I would never order drugs from and unknown source over the internet, a source that doesn't mind breaking the law, and give them to my child without knowing what they are and what they'll do. I can always make due with stuff, but I can't get my child's life back.

[xmas74]

75. I've worked in nursing homes.

Three days off and there's a good chance you'll lose your job.

It's a desperate situation either way.

[Avalux]

77. A job is not worth a child's safety. n/t

[xmas74]

80. When it might be the only place in the area

Some of the areas are rural enough that this might be the main employer in the area.

Once again, we are dealing with someone who might not understand what she was getting her child involved with, only knowing that she could provide a service without a drive and taking time off work. Seems to me she wanted what was best for her child but didn't realize what the consequences were.

Honestly, I'm surprised we don't hear about this more often than we do.

[questionseverything]

106. sounds more like the state endangered the child's life

and what is up with the medical profession being the police?

[avebury]

91. It would also make it a lot more difficult

for abortion clinic protesters.

[beam me up scottie]

94. Their worst nightmare, eh?

Makes it kind of hard to terrorize the patients and staff...

[xmas74]

98. I guess they could protest the post office.

Maybe they could stand in front of the doors and refuse to let people mail their packages.

[mtngirl47]

144. Thanks for posting this link...

When the other thread starting going off the deep end I started looking for this article--I had read it last week but couldn't find it today!

[MaggieD]

37. It's beyond disgusting

That we are still fighting for reproductive rights in 2014.

[xmas74]

47. It is.

How did we get to this!

[eggplant]

39. And that's why we have the NNAF.

http://www.fundabortionnow.org/

Please give generously.

[xmas74]

48. When I can,

though it's not often enough.

[beam me up scottie]

43. I half expected to see the term "abortion on demand" in that thread.

Thank you for this, many people don't realize that we're not just in danger of losing our rights, in some states we've already lost them.

Here is the info from the Alliance For Justice website I posted last night:

Forty years ago, the Supreme Court affirmed women’s constitutional right to safe and legal abortion in the landmark case Roe v. Wade. But today, Roe is at risk, with hundreds of new laws restricting abortion rights introduced in the past year alone.

***

Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers—or “TRAP”—Laws

What are they?

Passed under the guise of protecting health and safety, these laws regulating abortion clinics or providers are actually thinly-veiled attempts to shut down abortion clinics.

They needlessly require abortion clinics to meet the same standards as hospitals, or require providers to attain staff privileges at local hospitals, often an impossible feat.

When clinics cannot meet these regulations, they are forced to close. As Mississippi Lt. Governor Tate Reeves said as he signed a Mississippi TRAP bill into law, “We have the opportunity with the signing of this bill to end abortion in Mississippi.”



Where are these?

About 28 states have some version of TRAP laws.

According to the Guttmacher Institute, as of March 1, 2014, 27 states have policies requiring unnecessary regulations of abortion clinics, 24 states require abortion clinics to meet the same standards as ambulatory surgical centers, and 13 states unnecessarily require clinic physicians to attain either some kind of affiliation with a local hospital or attain admitting privileges.

***

Bans on Types and Times of Abortion

What are they?

Some states have enacted outright bans on abortion after a certain point in pregnancy. Some states have attempted to outlaw abortion after six weeks, when many women don’t even know they’re pregnant. Other states have adopted bans after 12 or 20 weeks.

Some states have restricted access to medication abortion, such as RU-486, which allows women to safely terminate a pregnancy early in the first trimester without the risks or costs of a surgical procedure.

***

Where are these?

North Dakota has banned abortions after six weeks of pregnancy; the law is being challenged in federal court. Arkansas has adopted a ban on abortion after 12 weeks of pregnancy. Nine states explicitly ban abortion after 20 weeks.

Five states have enacted laws restricting access to medication abortion by requiring physicians to follow outdated labeling protocols.

***

Mandatory Ultrasound Laws

What is it?

Some states require that before a woman may have an abortion, she must undergo an ultrasound, listen to the provider describe the fetus, and often then wait a certain period of time until she is allowed to actually attain the abortion.

Ultrasounds are rarely medically necessary for abortion. Some states require women to undergo an ultrasound prior to an abortion even when it is unnecessary, and additionally, some states require a waiting period of up to 24 hours between the ultrasound and the abortion. This causes an unnecessary delay in attaining abortion, often causing additional expense to the woman.

***

Where are these?

Five states have enacted laws requiring that providers must perform an ultrasound, display the image, and describe the fetus to the woman before performing an abortion.

Arizona, Louisiana, North Dakota, Virginia, and Texas require woman wait at least 24 hours to attain an abortion after the ultrasound.

***

The Fight in the Courts

Many of the laws restricting abortion have been challenged in federal and state court. That’s why it’s critically important to appoint federal judges who will uphold longstanding precedent guaranteeing women’s right to safe and legal abortion. The state laws being challenged in federal court include:

Arizona: The Ninth Circuit struck down an Arizona law prohibiting abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy. The state petitioned the Supreme Court for review, but the Court refused to hear the case, leaving the Ninth Circuit decision in place.

Arkansas: A federal judge in March 2014 permanently blocked Arkansas’s law, the “Arkansas Human Heartbeat Protection Act,” which bans abortion after 12 weeks of pregnancy.

Mississippi: Fighting to keep the state’s lone abortion clinic open, advocates are challenging a TRAP law passed in 2012 that requires the clinic’s providers to attain admitting privileges at a local hospital. A federal judge blocked the state from closing the clinic while its providers attempt to get admitting privileges. : The Fifth Circuit heard oral arguments in the case in April 2014.

North Carolina: North Carolina’s coercive ultrasound law that requires an ultrasound at least four hours before an abortion—without exception in cases of rape, health of the mother, or fatal fetal abnormalities—is being challenged in federal court. A federal judge struck down the law as unconstitutional. The governor announced his opposition to appealing the ruling, but that decision will ultimately be made by the state attorney general.

Texas: Texas’s law that imposes TRAP requirements, limits access to medication abortion, and bans abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy has been challenged in federal court. The Fifth Circuit has lifted the District Court’s grant of an injunction on the admitting privileges part of the law. Advocates petitioned the Supreme Court to temporarily block the law, but the Court left the Fifth Circuit decision in place. In March 2014, the Fifth Circuit upheld the admitting privileges and medication abortion restrictions as constitutional.

Wisconsin: Wisconsin’s TRAP law that would force two of four health centers providing abortion in Wisconsin to close is being challenged. A federal district court judge temporarily blocked the law pending trail; the state appealed to the Seventh Circuit, which affirmed the lower court. The state is now seeking appellate review from the United States Supreme Court. Meanwhile, the trial on the merits of the law took place in May 2014.

http://www.afj.org/multimedia/first-monday-films/roe-at-risk-the-threats-the-courts-and-you

[xmas74]

49. It's a disturbing trend

and many here don't see it. If you want to see where abortion is all but banned just go to a rural area in the South/Midwest/Plains. Too many women have little to no way of obtaining the procedure.

[Feral Child]

53. At least two in-state:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018662955

[xmas74]

55. What are you talking about?

Your link leads me to LOLcats and memes.

[beam me up scottie]

58. !

[xmas74]

59. I'd still love to know what he's talking about.

He never did reply back, as you've noticed.

[beam me up scottie]

66. Probably busy googling for more information to prove PP clinics are located on every street corner

where abortions are free and you get a lollypop when you sign up for the Abortion of the Month Club.

Because we're too stupid to know what's available where we live.

[xmas74]

78. I can get a lollypop when I join the Abortion of the Month Club?

Sign me up!

I've never had one but I've been along with others. It's sometimes a desperate situation where time is of the essence.

[beam me up scottie]

83. I almost died from mine.

Back then my only option was a surgical procedure, if I had the option of purchasing medication from any source I wouldn't have hesitated.

Some people just don't get it and they never will.

Thank you again for this thread, you knew you were going to get crap about it from the chronically ignorant but you did it anyway.

[xmas74]

86. When I was 16 I was in the locker room when a girl

actually gave herself a Drano douche in the shower. I've never forgotten it. It's something that should never happen again, but I'm afraid it will. At least the pills, even if from a less than reputable source, would have been better than that.

Something has to change.

[beam me up scottie]

90. Until the privileged in our party are willing to get a clue nothing will ever change.

Many years ago there was talk of an abortion underground to assist women in states where they didn't have access to safe and legal procedures. I was willing to risk my freedom to be part of it then and I'm more than willing to do so again.

Desperate times/desperate measures.

[xmas74]

96. PM sent.

Same thoughts here.

[Feral Child]

68. No need to be snippy.

I just made a mistake. I'm human that way.

Here's the proper link: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-center/PA

And another, for SE PA: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-southeastern-pennsylvania/patients/our-health-centers


North East: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-center/pennsylvania/philadelphia/19154/far-northeast-surgical-center-3441-91460

Another: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-center/pennsylvania/philadelphia/19107/locust-street-surgical-center-3360-91460


GoogleSearch gives up several more locations within PA that provide abortion services. My research took all of 30 sec's.

Apparently you were no more diligent than the mother in question was in researching. You, like she, just assumed there was no help available and she chose a highly risky and illegal course.


Have you ever priced black-market internet meds? QUITE expensive. Then there's the risk involved; she bought "pills" off the internet from someone willing to sell prescription drugs, no questions asked. Could she be certain that they sent as promised?
I doubt that vendor was found on Angie's List.


Would YOU feed your child illegal pills obtained from a foreign source from questionable folk you don't know?

[xmas74]

71. I wasn't being snippy by any means.

I really had no idea what you were talking about.

I know my state has one provider-just one. If I needed one I'd have to drive four hours to get there and, if the GOP has its way, wil have to wait 72 hours for the procedure. Now if I cannot afford to drive that far (or don't have a vehicle), cannot afford the appointment and cannot afford to take three days off of work (like they are trying to push through in my state) then what am I to do? I'm desperate and I need to get this done. There are pills available online that can be delivered right to my front door. What do I do?

Maybe I'm the wrong person to ask since I've witnessed desperation up close and in person. I was in the room when a girl gave herself a Drano douche in the locker room shower back in high school. After that nearly anything has to be safer.

[Feral Child]

87. Interesting anecdote.

I'll agree on the Drano-remedy.

Here's another query for you: Do you know if I have an understanding of "desperation"? Perhaps I'm an EMT, or a cop, or fire/rescue. Maybe I've seen things you can't even imagine. I've made no secret that I'm an infantry combat vet from Viet Nam. Do you think I might have witnessed some desperation there?

+, you haven't answered my pointed question, i'll repeat it with the addition of the restrictions you labor under: Would you give your child "pills" obtained from someone willing to circumvent International Law to supply you with "pills"? Pills with an unknown provenance from a criminal, pills that could be anything....

Answer directly, please. Either you would be willing to feed YOUR child pills from a highly unreliable source, or you wouldn't. That's a simple "Yes" or "No" question. Surely someone with your experience of desperation can answer such a simple question.

[xmas74]

93. You never asked me what I did for a living.

Maybe I worked in emergency services for several years also. (I did.) I also worked in state hospitals before I had my own child and saw things that were horrible, to say the least.

Would I? No, but I'm not that mother. I know the difference, I have transportation to take my child over state lines (in my case) to the closest clinic and I have enough of an education to not trust most products on the internet. Others do not.

Instead of blaming others why aren't we blaming the lawmakers for making it extremely difficult to obtain a procedure that should be available in a local doctor's office? Why make it so cost-prohibitive and make it hard for those in rural areas to travel? Why are we punishing small town women?

[Feral Child]

108. Charges were brought because she endangered a child.

The law can't be expected to make exceptions simply because life was difficult for this woman. She might have, instead, stolen a car to get the girl to a clinic. Should the law absolve of her of any crime, because she was in a difficult position?



You know that they wouldn't and you wouldn't expect it.
I agree that abortion needs to be reliable, available and affordable for all. It should be the center plank of the Democrat platform.
Unfortunately, it isn't readily available.

If she'd burgled a pharmacy for appropriate meds, Would that be OK with you?
What if she'd robbed a pharmacy at gunpoint?
Is any crime excusable because it's connected to the need for an abortion?

Take "abortion" out of the equation. Now the child has a Flagyl-resistant C-diff infection. The required medicine cost about $1300, a bitter "pill" of it's own.

Is it OK for her to internet shop for a cheaper alternative, even though she has no prescription? Or are you making excuses because the word "abortion" is involved?


EDIT: BTW, I had no reason to ask your occupation. Since YOU brought up experience, I thought it just to elaborate on mine, lest you assume I'm a stranger to life's foibles. Also, thank you for your service.

[xmas74]

110. Question is did she know that it was illegal to purchase over the internet?

Did she actually know this? Quite a few don't. I really don't think she understood what she was getting herself into at the time. She used what she knew and did the best with it. It was decided that her child would have an abortion and that pills certainly sounded safer than surgery.

As parents we all do things that aren't exactly good for our children at one time or another and some of those things can lead to harm. Do we prosecute every single instance, even if we obviously never meant for harm to happen to the child and only did what was thought best with the knowledge available?

I hate to say it but it is starting to sound like a case of "blame the victim" from you.

[Feral Child]

120. "Ignorance" is never an acceptable defense.

I could argue I didn't know it was illegal to gut my neighbor like a fish. The court cannot be deflected by determining on a piecemeal basis when stupid is an excuse so the law is very clear about ignorance.

You know this, now you're just wasting my time with spurious arguments you can't actually believe.

I don't play that game. Goodbye.

[beam me up scottie]

130. "Ignorance" is never an acceptable defense

Wow, just wow.

Do you even read what you post?

Seriously, you're the poster child of willful ignorance, a proverbial Engergizer Bunny constantly beating your drum full of Google Maps and Suburbanite Privilege, condemning a mother you know nothing about.

[Live and Learn]

128. There is no evidence that the pills

were purchased from a supplier circumventing International Law, that I know of. Do you have a link for that?

[Live and Learn]

135. That is ridiculous. Just because something is illegal here doesn't

mean suppliers in countries where it is not illegal are circumventing international law.

Only you can wasted your time. And I do think that is exactly what you are doing when you attempt to use bullying techniques to substantiate your invalid statements.

[xmas74]

136. Did you notice the reply has been hidden now?

Someone didn't like it.

[Live and Learn]

137. No, I didn't. Thanks for the update. nt

[Beaverhausen]

73. None of those facilities are anywhere near where this woman and her daughter live

Are you so certain they have a car and and can drive to the nearest facility, which I understand is actually 74 miles away? Do you know if the mother can take that much time off of work?

Do you know how large Pennsylvania actually is?

[Feral Child]

81. Yes, I understand basic geography.

And I've lived in the north-east, so I know that mass-transit between cities is very available.

No I can't answer your hypotheticals about this woman's occupational limitations.

I do know that extensive research is involved in locating online pharmacies that will supply international restricted limitations without prescriptions. I know that any script-med you obtain this way is both very expensive and of questionable provenance. I know that my research turned up numerous clinics providing abortions throughout the state. A more exhaustive search might have taken as much as five minutes, about 4-5 hours less than it would take to find an internet "pharmacy"

I also know that most of those firms specialize in Xanax & Hydro, so an even more refined search would be required to find the specific "pills" she bought.

More, those meds have to clear Customs, so:
A. There's a possibility of confiscation.
B. International mail can be quite slow (Parcel companies don't accept these kind of shipments)

Either of those miscues could result in the pregnancy continuing past the "safe" period for this medicine.


In short, her actions aren't excusable or justifiable.

I'll close with a question: Would you give "pills" obtained from the internet without the required prescription to your child?

[Beaverhausen]

84. Mass Transit between cities, yes. They live in a tiny town in the middle of nowhere

they would have had to travel at least 3 times to have the procedure done.

Clearly she was desperate. What I would have done really doesn't matter.

The bottom line is, the sentence the mother received is ridiculously harsh and women everywhere need access to safe abortion services. We are going back to the days before Roe V Wade. Maybe that's OK for you, but its not for most women.

[Feral Child]

92. So you are unwilling to take a direct stance.

I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't risk poisoning your child.

Yet you want this woman excused from placing her child in that much jeapordy. Excused, even though her negligence placed her daughter in the ER. Excused, even though she clearly risked killing her daughter?

I think you're arguing from an emotional stance, defending any and all abortions, even risky, illegal ones, all in a very detached and hypothetical fashion. Partisanship can over-rule common sense, but I don't believe that, with your child's life on the line, you'd decide the same as this woman.

[beam me up scottie]

99. "I think you're arguing from an emotional stance, defending any and all abortions"

Last edited Sun Sep 7, 2014, 05:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Yeah, we wimmenfolks tend to get all histerical like that.

wow.

Nowhere in this thread or the previous does Beaverhausen say she wanted the mother excused.

[Feral Child]

113. She doesn't want her punished

I think quibbling over "excused" is an equivocation.

I've already mentioned that I'm supportive of the right for a woman to choose. If you want to play the misogyny card, you're wasting your time: I don't take that bait.

I was unaware of the gender of "xmas74". There are very militant male supporters of abortion rights, too, you know. I happen to be one of them. I don't think that "xmas74" is "hysterical", which you know is an outdated diagnosis no longer used by the medical profession. The law this woman broke says nothing about abortion, she's charged with practicing medicine without a license.

Do you think that law is invalid? Should all or any of us set up shop as a health practitioner?

Since it's obvious you're trying to bait me into a circular, emotionally charged scream-thread, I will no longer address you.

Some people come here to vent spleen, I'm not one of those. Nothing can be gained by ugly exchanges of insults.

Good day, Sir or Ma'am.

[beam me up scottie]

127. Not wanting her jailed and her child in state custody is NOT the same thing as "excusing" her

Newsflash: your declaration of support for our right to choose won't win you any medals here. Not when you repeatedly blame the mother because you judge her to be an unfit parent.

If you think that your posts in this thread and the previous one make you look like a "very militant male supporters of abortion rights" you are delusional.

An "emotionally charged scream-thread" ?

And you wonder why we question your support.

[suffragette]

115. It was only a matter of time before that got

Posted. They think it strengthens their argument. It never does though, just the opposite.

[xmas74]

134. Same poster referred to me as "snippy" earlier.

Weak, weak, weak.

[suffragette]

147. Yep: snippy, silly, emotional, militant.

Those are all very revealing tells from the poster.

[xmas74]

149. Exactly.

Us uppity "wimminfolk" need to know our place and all. It was pretty telling exactly where the arguments were leading.

[beam me up scottie]

140. No kidding, lol!

Using words like 'hysterical' and 'emotional' is one sure way to bring the wrath of women DUers down upon their pointy little heads.

[xmas74]

141. Of course, he hasn't figured it out yet

though I noticed one of his replies has since been hidden by jury decision.

[suffragette]

155. That's for sure. And it didn't take long for that poster to to resort to all the usual tells.

Interestingly enough though, none of them have responded to my post linking to NARAL's info about Pennsylvania's restrictive abortion laws and climate in the other thread.

[Beaverhausen]

142. You don't know anything about me

Not my experiences nor those of close friends of mine regarding abortions.

Yet you call me names and completely misrepresent what I posted.

That's called losing your argument.

[beam me up scottie]

88. What would you be willing to do if YOU were pregnant, poor and desperate?

Without the benefit of all of your "extensive research".

[Feral Child]

102. Why, without research?

We can be pretty sure this woman could do a simple Google search, she was able to find a black-market operation.

Your question is disengenuous. I might not fault the woman for taking a risk if she, herself, was pregnant. I certainly fault her for making that decision for a 16 year old girl.

And, for a direct answer, I WOULD NOT blatantly risk poisoning my child with Internet nostrums of no provenance.



What would you do? Would you risk your child's life?

[beam me up scottie]

107. Yes, sunshine, without research.

Or are you unaware that many poor people in rural areas don't even have a fucking computer with which to google?

You're not only disengenuous (sic) you're absolutely unwilling to imagine for one minute what goes through the minds of women who are forced to make choices without the benefit of resources and without access to the wealth of information available to such educated people as yourself.

I didn't ask what you would do for a child, I asked what YOU would do.

What would I do? Well, since I almost bled to death after a botched abortion I would have loved to have the luxury of ordering medication that could be taken in the privacy of my own home.



How dare you question my or any other woman's motivation?



People like you are the problem. Get on board or get the hell out of our way.

[Feral Child]

129. I didn't question any woman's motivation.

I questioned this woman's actions not her reasons.

Please spare me your "How-dare-you" outrage, especially when it's misdirected.

As to your pronoun preferences, I prefer sticking as close to actualities as possible: she didn't decide for herself, she decide for a dependent child. I would never put a child in harm's way.

So step back to reality. Would you victimize a child in this fashion? That's rhetorical, it's already clear that you're manufacturing defenses for a criminal based on your prejudices. This is no longer a discussion, and you can't be persuaded because you want desperately not to be. Your desperation is apparent from your attempts to anger me. You cannot make me angry, and I won't allow you to waste more of my time.

BTW, thanks for pointing out that I forgot to Spell Check my last riposte. That's also a sophomoric attempt to invalidate my premise based on a misspelled word. It's the kind of rebuttal that a truly desperate person might make. You've been around long enough to know how weak a tactic that is.

Lastly, I know not what you mean with your imperious summation. I've made it very clear that I support readily available, affordable, and safe abortion for any woman at any time SHE decides it's appropriate, without let or interference; hence I'm neither " the problem", nor "in the way".

I'm not impressed by your impotent anger, and I don't engage in emotional outbursts on the internet.

Good evening.

[beam me up scottie]

138. You accused one poster of "excusing" the mother

and suggested that she was "defending any and all abortions, even risky, illegal ones".

And fuck yeah I'm angry, why shouldn't I be when people care more about persecuting women for breaking the law than showing compassion for them.

You reserved all of your anger for the mother in this situation, repeatedly damning her for her ignorance while wallowing in yours from on high.

I don't know if she should have known better but as a "supporter" of women's rights you should have.

[LanternWaste]

178. Judging the action without knowledge of motivation is a fool's errand. Defending it as such is merel

"I questioned this woman's actions not her reasons..."
Judging the action without knowledge of motivation is a fool's errand. Continuing to rationalize doing so is merely foolish.


"I'm not impressed by your impotent anger..."
I don't think anyone is too impressed by your irrational and somewhat hysterical anger, either.

[beam me up scottie]

212. Thank you, LanternWaste.

You have always been an ally and a true feminist in every sense of the word.

[xmas74]

213. I stopped arguing with him after a while.

I would have been better off slamming my head into a concrete wall.

[xmas74]

89. Mass transit may be available in the NE

but where I live it's almost non-existant outside of the cities. In my town we have school buses and that's it.

[Feral Child]

95. Ok, that's a definite difficulty.

Is it insurmountable? And, most importantly, would you find some means, any means, rather than make the conscious choice to endanger your child in this manner?

Would you break this very important law?

[xmas74]

101. Would I? No.

Would others I know? Possibly.

I've known women so poor they had no vehicle and walked to work every day, no matter the weather. (And work was several miles away.) Would they risk something like this? Possibly.

Abortion is still something you keep quiet, especially in small towns. If you don't have money you would have to borrow it. If you don't have transportation you would have to find someone to take you. You'd also need to take the time off of work and that could raise questions. (My boss, for example, is extremely nosy and wants a doctor's note for every single incidence. Imagine bringing in a note from a clinic not in the area. It would raise red flags.)

Desperate women do desperate things.

[Feral Child]

117. So do desperate men.

We send men to jail for stealing food for their children. Thing is, there are laws on the books and every contingency cannot be foreseen. Some laws are clearly unjust, this one isn't. I do believe the sentence was unduly harsh, but the conviction is valid. Neither cops nor judges should get to decide what laws they want to enforce. I know, the system's broke and they often do just that, but judicial corruption is too large a side issue to address as a subthread.

Fact is, she clearly broke the law and the conviction is valid.

[beam me up scottie]

145. No man, no matter HOW desperate, will ever be forced to give birth to a child against his will.

The fact that you even make the comparison tells me everything I need to know about you.

[laundry_queen]

159. +1000 nt

[Ilsa]

72. This is the future created by chipping away at

Women's health care laws and rights. More women don't have access, and when they try to get it, they end up in prison.

There was no reason to put this mother in prison for trying to help her daughter. She didn't intentionally try to hurt her; she was trying to protect her. It's not as if she's going to do this over and over.

SHAME ON THE JUDGE THAT SENTENCED HER TO PRISON.

[xmas74]

79. There are a few in this thread stating that she

deserves what she gets for putting her child at risk.

Just read through it.

[Ilsa]

82. She probably didn't know enough to

understand the risk completely. Many people on medication don't fully understand side effects, combinations, and everything that can go wrong. She was desperate to help her daughter.

Prison is for people who are a danger to others. I doubt this mother would permit the same sequence of events if she got pregnant again. Prison doesn't help anyone here.

[xmas74]

85. That's what I've been trying to explain.

The mother was desperate and didn't know what she was getting into. She didn't mean to hurt her but to help.

Access is low and education is piss-poor in our country when it comes to abortion. Situations like this don't have to happen if those two things change. Of course, I'm not holding my breath over either.

[SonofMarx]

97. Bad decison by mom, could kill her daughter

[pnwmom]

100. The nearest abortion clinic was 75 miles away. They were poor. How were they

supposed to get there?

That "bad decision" was to use medicine that doctors prescribe for abortions every day, both in the US and in Europe.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-info/abortion/the-abortion-pill

[SonofMarx]

163. I trust results-rest my case

[pnwmom]

165. Even if she had gotten the prescription from a doctor,

she would have had the same reaction to the medication and would have ended up with cramps that sent her to the hospital.

But the final result is she's fine now and no longer pregnant.

Rest my case.

[SonofMarx]

167. Your assertion is not true

It is totally made up. I am citing what actually happened.

[pnwmom]

168. What isn't true? She's fine now and isn't pregnant. Prove otherwise. n/t

[SonofMarx]

169. I already proved you made it up.

It was a very foolish risk to take. Would you have given a loved one the pill she gave her daughter?

[pnwmom]

170. I would have taken my daughter to Planned Parenthood, if she'd asked me, and they'd

have given her the same pills to take at home, if that was her choice, or helped her arrange for a surgical abortion.

If she had developed problems afterwards, I would have sought further medical care, just as this mother did.

But we are luckier than this girl because there are many doctors and clinics in our area that assist with abortions, including a local Planned Parenthood.

The girl isn't pregnant and she's fine now. If you could have proven otherwise, you would have.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-info/abortion/the-abortion-pill

The Abortion Pill at a Glance

Take medicines to end an early pregnancy

Safe and effective

Available from many Planned Parenthood health centers

Costs about $300–$800



A woman has many decisions to make when considering abortion. If you're thinking about abortion, your health care provider may talk with you about a few different abortion methods. You may be offered the option to have an in-clinic abortion procedure. Or you may be offered the option to have a medication abortion by taking the abortion pill. Medication abortion is the kind of abortion discussed on this page.

Whether you're thinking about having a medication abortion, you're concerned about a woman who may be having one, or you're someone who's just curious about medication abortion, you may have many questions. Here are some of the most common questions we hear women ask about the abortion pill. We hope you find the answers helpful. And if you're thinking of having a medication abortion, we hope they help you decide what is best for you.

SNIP

[xmas74]

205. If you look at this site out of the Netherlands

they offer a doctor consult and will ship it to your house for 90 Euros (around $116 in U.S. dollars). Full instruction is also given for how to take it.

https://www.womenonweb.org/en/i-need-an-abortion


$300 at PP, where you might have to travel and get stuck with all the state regulations or $116 mailed right to your door, bypassing any wait times, ultrasounds, etc? I can understand why this might be seen as a choice for some.

For my own daughter I would take her over the state line to PP but if I had no options for myself I'd consider otherwise.

[xmas74]

173. I've had that exact pill.

It's used in hospitals all the time to induce labor. Chances are the mother has had it or someone they know also has had it.

Cytotec is a pretty common labor pill.

[gollygee]

175. I've been given that pill

it's a pretty common medication to take to induce labor.

[xmas74]

204. Actually, yes, she would have had cramps.

What do you think happens with an abortion? There is cramping involved.

I've had a miscarriage and I've given birth. The miscarriage involved cramping. Contractions also felt like gut wrenching cramping. I drove with a friend when she had her surgical abortion. Guess what? There was quite a bit of cramping involved and that happened the entire drive home. She was still too drugged up to feel much when we left the clinic. It wasn't until about an hour into the drive that the drugs had worn off and she really started feeling the cramping.

The fact is, she would have had some cramping, no matter where she was at. If she had no cramping, then the drug didn't take.

Bleeding and uterine contractions (cramping) may begin half an hour following this first step and will almost always start within the first 12 hours. Bleeding itself does not mean that an abortion has occurred.

http://gynuity.org/resources/read/misoprostol-selfguide-engpdf/

Actually, read that entire page, if you have a few minutes. It's educational. I've learned quite a bit about abortion with cytotec that I didn't know. And check out the bottom with the link to Women on Waves.

[xmas74]

103. Did she know this?

Probably not. She probably read what she could about the drug and decided that it sounded safe, since it's used in offices all the time.

No one knows what they'd do until they are in that situation.

[SonofMarx]

164. I would not let a loved one do it.

I stand by what I said

[xmas74]

172. Cytotec

I received it in the hospital to induce my labor. It's not an unknown drug. The mother might have even received it herself to induce at one time or someone she knows has. (That's very likely-it's a common drug.)

She's poor, she lives in a rural area, she might not have much access to a clinic. (The nearest clinic was 75 miles and that was just a PP clinic, not an abortion clinic.) Maybe she's upset about her daughter's pregnancy (I would be if it were my daughter) and talks to someone about it. That person directs them to purchasing Cytotec on a website, maybe a website with instruction on how to do it. I did a simple web search and found a website run out of Europe that had directions and mailed it to your door for 90 Euros, stating that Cytotec has a 90% success rate within 12 hours. 90 Euros and and high success rate. 90 Euros would be cheaper than obtaining an abortion at a clinic, where wait times may come into play and fighting for an appointment can be a risk.

Maybe I wouldn't have done it but I understand why it was done.

[pnwmom]

208. You wouldn't let a loved one have any abortion. So what?

She was just as safe as any other woman taking this at home, which millions do every day. But she was one of a small percent that had a problem serious enough to send her to the hospital. And then she was fixed up and sent home.

(By the way, she happened to have a urinary tract infection (UTI), too, which is not a side effect of the drug -- but would have added greatly to her pain. She's lucky she went into the hospital because a UTI if untreated can lead to permanent kidney damage.)

This is all about controlling women and limiting abortion -- the judge in the case made his anti-abortion views explicit. And yours are obvious, too.

[xmas74]

214. According to the PP site

the first dose is given in office while the second is administered by the patient at home. In other words, not every part of the procedure is completed in an office under a medical technician of some sort's care.

The site https://www.womenonweb.org/ actually gives detail about how to do this at home and even ships the pills to a person's house from the Netherlands for less than half the price of what it might cost at PP. (PP advertises their pills at $300-800 while this site advertises them for about 90 Euro, which comes up to around $116 U.S. dollars.) There is a questionaire that needs filled out first, which is then turned over to a physician for evaluation. And a follow up visit to a local doctor is encouraged, if possible.

Not much money, rural, travel expenses and taking time off of work compared to ordering them online. Personally, I'd take my child to a PP over the state line but I can understand why this mother did what she did.

[beam me up scottie]

111. Thanks to the lack of affordable legal options her daughter could have died.

Does your lack of compassion for the mom also extend to her daughter?

[SonofMarx]

166. The premise of your question does not follow

I would not give it to a loved one. Would you?

[xmas74]

174. Once again, I've had it,

as have a number of my friends. I had it back in 2000 to induce labor with my daughter. When that wasn't as effective as they had hoped I was then given pitocin.

This "I wouldn't give it to a loved one" is silly. I wouldn't be surprised if one of your loved ones has already had it.

[gollygee]

182. There's a risk no matter what here

Pregnancy and childbirth are also risky at that age. If the girl wants an abortion, then ideally it would be at a facility with trained professionals, however if that was not available to her for whatever reason (likely financial due to traveling and wait times) then it wasn't a choice between something risky and something without risk; it was a choice between two options that both had risk - a) abortion whatever way she and her mom could find, or b) pregnancy and childbirth.

[gollygee]

187. Irrelevant

That's a ridiculous response. Obviously she is alive.

[Agschmid]

196. So much fail.

[xmas74]

201. Actually, there are sites that offer a doctor's consult

and then prescribe it for 90 Euros. They give full instructions on how to take it and encourage women to see a doctor after they've taken it, for a followup.

As to over the internet: over the counter, over the internet, does it matter? Some people have adverse reactions to drugs no matter how safe you think they are. An example for me personally is Aleve. It's sold over the counter at any pharmacy, discount store or even gas stations all over the U.S. I can't take it. When I took it I became dizzy, had a headache and became extremely nauseous. I actually vomited and developed a rash. So what did I do? I went to a doctor. Guess what? I can never take Aleve ever again.

The point is that people can develop side effects even with something that most can handle. What do they do when they develop the side effects? What this mother did: take their child for treatment.

My cousin cannot take some antibiotics. How did she find out? She was sent home with a prescription from a physician. The reaction didn't happen in the office but rather at home. And what did she do? She went to the ER and was treated.

People sometimes have reactions to drugs. As long as it's recognized and treated then there should be no problems. In the case of the mother in the link, she addressed the problem by taking her daughter to the ER for treatment.

[gollygee]

143. This is what happens when people curtail abortion rights by making them more difficult

to get.

They do the best they can, and they best they can do is sometimes not very safe.

The answer is to make abortion services much easier to get, not to criminalize people dealing with desperate situations the best they can.

[uppityperson]

185. This is what DOES happen when abortion rights are curtailed.

[uppityperson]

188. Indeed I do. I have spent most of my adult professional life working and volunteering with women's

reproductive health issues. Thank you for recognizing that some of us do know.

When reproductive health access, aka contraception and abortion rights, are limited, people do things that are not always safe or legal.

Yes. I do know.

[uppityperson]

192. Not debatable. I HAVE spent most of my adult professional life working/volunteering in women's

health care.

[uppityperson]

194. You tell me I am lying about my working with women's health care and give me permission to

disagree with you? That is not your right to give.

You did not answer my questions.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5505250

[uppityperson]

198. Why do you not answer the questions? They are simple to answer and part of the discussion.

[uppityperson]

200. I am waiting for your answers.

Do you deny limitation of reproductive health care leads to potentially unsafe actions?

Not "can" but "does"?

Bonus question.
What is your age range? Within a decade is fine if you are concerned about sharing exact age.

[uppityperson]

191. Do you deny limitation of reproductive health care leads to potentially unsafe actions?

Not "can" but "does"?

Bonus question.
What is your age range? Within a decade is fine if you are concerned about sharing exact age.

[xmas74]

209. What was going on in this entire subthread?

I notice it's all been removed.

[uppityperson]

210. SonofMarx did not agree that limiting reproductive health issues led to unsafe actions.

He also did not answer any question but instead gave permission to disagree with him.

At least in this subthread with me. I am not sure why he felt he had to give me permission to disagree, it was odd.

[xmas74]

211. There was another person in the thread who

also had a similar tone. He would give permission to address him.


There was definitely a certain kind of person showing up yesterday, just to argue against reproductive right and address it as "concern".

[marym625]

109. Sorry if I missed it

And this was already stated, but when the daughter started having problems the mother took her to the er. That's when the charges came up because they told the truth

[xmas74]

118. Yep

Health care was addressed at the ER when issues appeared and that's when the charges came about.

[Le Taz Hot]

114. The right-wing replies to that thread

made me ill. Slowly, steadily, the right-wing has slithered onto DU. Awhile back I started a thread about being a Federal employee and you'd think I'd posted it on FR. Then the last two days there have been numerous Clinton apologists justifying her glowing reviews of that war criminal Kissinger. Victims of hackers are blamed for having PRIVATE nude photos of themselves STOLEN. And now we have people who have never been desperately poor condemning a mother who was only trying to help her daughter exercise her right to choose.

The infiltration has not been by Republicans but by Third-Way "Democrats" who have had to move so far to the right to justify the unjustifiable actions and rhetoric their heroes have undertaken that they are virtually indistinguishable from moderate Republicans.

[xmas74]

119. There are right wing comments on this thread.

You don't even have to leave to find the comments here.

It's just crazy.

[Le Taz Hot]

123. I saw them.

One of them started a thread about how Hillary and Kissinger were just dealing with the "realities" of the world as it now exists. I felt like I was reading George Will.

[xmas74]

124. Geez Louise.

It's crazy.

One of my arguers has informed me that he's no longer speaking to me. Oh, well.

When did we get so crazy around here?

[Le Taz Hot]

126. Yeah, one of the others

on that thread got pissed off at me for pointing out that Kissinger made a backroom deal with the South Vietnamese that killed the 1968 Paris Peace talks after he had posted about how Kissinger "ended the war in Viet Nam" He/She didn't take issue with the facts (as he/she spewed before knowing what happened in 1968) but I was mean and rude about it. He/She is obviously new. LOL!

[xmas74]

132. Someone referred to me as "snippy" in this thread.

That's a word I haven't heard used towards me since I was a child.

[OldRedneck]

121. Misoprostol

The Rise of the Do-It-Yourself Abortion in Texas

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-rise-of-the-diy-abortion-in-texas/373240/

-- quote

I’m here to look for a small, white, hexagonal pill called misoprostol. Also known as miso or Cytotec, the drug induces an abortion that appears like a miscarriage during the early stages of a woman’s pregnancy. For women living in Latin America and other countries that have traditionally outlawed abortion, miso has been a lifeline—it’s been called “a noble medication,” “world-shaking” and “revolutionary.” But now, it’s not just an asset of the developing world.

-- end quote

[xmas74]

125. I was given Cytotec to induce my labor nearly fifteen years ago.

I hated it but it was a different situation for me.

[handmade34]

154. I used available herbs

to bring about miscarriage back before abortion was legal... can't believe another generation has to fight this fight again...

[xmas74]

161. I received cytotec in the hospital to induce

with my daughter. It makes sense that it would work for abortion-I just didn't think about it that way.

I knew someone who used herbs once, saying that it was cheaper than making the drive to a clinic. She called her grandmother and asked her what to take. She said her grandmother said this has always happened but that no one really ever talks about the use of herbs from the past.

[liberalmuse]

162. I can't even believe you have to post this here on DU.

Seriously, it's rather shocking how much things have changed in the past few years. That this woman is going to prison for being a loving parent is mindboggling. This country is f*cked.

[xmas74]

197. It's crazy, isn't it?

Even crazier are those who repeatedly argue about it.

[beam me up scottie]

171. 100 recs!

You're a star lady, take a bow.

[xmas74]

179. Flattering but

I wish I didn't have to post any of it. Unfortunately what I posted is all too real in many parts of the U.S.

[Paka]

176. So true & so sad!

Thanks for posting.

[xmas74]

203. What's sad is that we still have to argue and fight for this.

That is what's sad.

[libodem]

177. K&R

I find it interesting who recommends the threads. Mostly for the notably absent.

[xmas74]

206. The absent are always the most interesting one

along with those who argue, especially with really low post count.