She married him because she is an idiot.

[IdaBriggs]

Last edited Tue Sep 9, 2014, 12:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Also because she probably loves him, and thinks there is more to their relationship than what was captured on that horrific video.

She probably considers herself a strong, confident woman. She isn't his slave. She knows damn good and well she could walk away, and I am confident she has family and friends who would provide her safe haven with no questions asked.

I have now watched the video multiple times. She never cowers from him. She is not oppressed.

She has just been the victim of a physical assault that should NEVER have happened, and she still loves him.

Life can be complicated sometimes. She probably tells herself she provoked him - she is not saying this to justify his behavior, but to give herself some CONTROL over it.

You see, if she PROVOKED HIM, then she can stop him from "over reacting" the next time by NOT provoking him. (Classic co-dependent behavior.)

And this is why she is an idiot: she has not yet realized that the man she loves, the father of her child, her lover and best friend, uses "HIT" as an automatic default "Go To" in his coping skills.

Not walk away. Not kneel in prayer. Not talk until four in the morning. Not even yell at each other and say nasty things.

Hit.

It is a learned behavior. It is the physical "fight" in the survival "fight, flight or freeze" mode.

And like it or not, when her partner feels threatened - even just mentally or emotionally - by her, his coping mechanism is Hit.

There are those who watch the video who will focus on the "norms" in their relationship - the playful (?) little back of her hand slaps. The two of them appear to be bickering. It escalates in the elevator.

She did not cower from him. In the elevator, she hit her own moment of "FLIGHT, FIGHT OR FREEZE" and she went for FIGHT.

And he knocked her unconscious with one blow, and (to my mind) seems more annoyed at the inconvenience than concerned for her medical condition.

It won't be a popular observation, but I think he looks kind of "shock-y" himself. Adrenalin rush, maybe. Everyone has baggage.

But this post is about her.

The two of them have a Very Messed Up relationship. I am willing to put money on the fact that in HER HEAD, she is NOT a victim. The arguments she will make to those who care about her are pretty cliche.

- "Victim" implies someone who is helpless. She is not. She is a grown woman, and she has made a choice to stay and work things through with the man she loves. They got MARRIED - he loves her.

- So they had a small scuffle; the whole thing is being blown out of proportion. It is actually embarrassing, really. It isn't anyone else's business, so just...BUTT OUT.

- Everyone needs to quit acting like this is a defining moment of his character. Or hers, for that matter.

- Besides, it isn't going to happen again. They have spent a lot of time talking this through. She is sorry everyone was inconvenienced, but the two of them have worked things out, so seriously, everyone needs to just drop it already.

- She loves him. He is the father of her child. He is her best friend and her lover. He worked hard to achieve professional success and she is proud of him. She knows she has a temper, and she is working on that, and so is he.

- She is not a "battered woman", dammit. She isn't afraid of him, and she has her own money.

They all come down to the same thing:

She loves him. He loves her. It isn't going to happen again.

And the truth is, she really believes that last bit. She has to.

Despite all common sense, despite all studies and stories, despite the reality that exercising the demons they both carry and learning healthy communication/relationship enhancing skills beyond "don't Hit!" is going to take a tremendous effort on both of their parts, especially when both will want to minimize and trivialize the facts she went after him and he knocked her unconscious, right now she believes it won't happen again.

And it won't. Until inevitably, it does.

And that is why I am comfortable saying:

She married him because she is an idiot.



DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed in this post are my own. I am not a trained mental health professional. I base these opinions on my own life experiences, which includes a loving, but seriously dysfunctional family of origin, three sisters who had partners arrested for domestic violence, and years of therapy to avoid being one of those statistics. Life is complicated, but NOBODY deserves to be a victim of domestic violence.

ON EDIT: I can no longer reply in this thread as I have received my first ever (non-meta) hide for one of my replies, which truthfully, was snarky and sarcastic (for which I apologize); I have been on DU for over a decade, so I guess I was due! Lol. Anyway, this is a difficult discussion, and I thank both the people who appreciated the nature of the post, as well as those who questioned my "harsh" language. This is an important discussion, and no, I am not going to edit the post, or delete it (but thank you for asking).

DU --

[B Calm]

1. I think she is not an idiot, but married him to walk away with half of his fortune.

I hope she takes him to the cleaners!

[exboyfil]

35. Rice probably has not earned a cent

since the marriage. He probably isn't going to make much in the near future. Might not be much to get from him. In general any property he acquired prior to the marriage would not be split. How much claim will she have for alimony for such a short marriage.

[BlueStreak]

103. He has eared his last dollar in football

Look at the stands on Sunday. There are LOTS of women at the games. No NFL team is going to hire this guy, and in a couple of years, he will be past the age most RBs survive in the league anyway.

So if the game plan was to take your lumps and cash in, that ain't gonna happen. This guy will be broke inside of 12 months.

But I don't know that was the young lady's plan. A lot of women feel they just don't have many options. It is hell when the best option in front of you is a guy know know will beat you up as long as you are together.

[Arkansas Granny]

2. You make several good points, not the least of which is that it's learned behavior.

So, now they can teach this "lesson" to their child also. Just keeping up those family traditions.

[IdaBriggs]

8. "Mind control", "mentally ill", "slave" and "gold digger" seem to be the "go to"

explanations for a lot of people, I am an "outside the box" thinker.

I hope their child learns to break the patterns....

[moriah]

25. Calling her an idiot isn't that far out of the fucking box. n/t

[pintobean]

27. It's outside the box

of common decency.

[moriah]

29. Yeah, that's the only "out of box" thinking happening here, for sure.

Sickening.

[Warpy]

101. Oxytocin is a bigger liar than alcohol is

That's the hormone that makes us sloppily in love and able to ignore the gigantic flaws in the object of our extreme affection. Eventually the liar hormone levels drop and we find ourselves tied to another person, theoretically for life. If we're lucky, s/he only eats crackers in bed. If we're unlucky, that person is an abuser.

[pintobean]

3. Victims of domestic violence are not idiots.

This is blaming the victim, and you should be ashamed.

[IdaBriggs]

4. Thank you for missing the point.

[pintobean]

6. The point is

the insult to victims is right there in the subject line, for every GD browser to see. No need to click for a victim to see that they're blamed.

[IdaBriggs]

10. We *do* blame victims of domestic violence who stay in the relationship.

She is either "brain washed/mind controlled", "mentally ill/wants it", a "slave" due to her financial/social circumstances, or a "gold digger."

I am going to stick with IDIOT because yes, victims of crimes who do not send their perpetrators to jail due to emotional ties EVEN THOUGH DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS A CRIME are viewed by the rest of society as either "asking for it" (see above) or idiots.

Not every person who is the victim of a physical assault sees themselves AS a victim; they frequently find themselves in the POWERFUL position of PROTECTING THE PEOPLE WHO ABUSE THEM --

Relationship dynamics are complicated. It makes it easy to put a stranger in jail, but not someone you love, and that applies to the guy who punches you in the elevator, or the teenager dipping into your purse for cash without permission.

[boston bean]

12. Another reason women don't send their perpetrators to jail

is because their perpetrators don't go to jail.

As evidenced in this case. Why would a woman who fears put herself in more danger by seeking remedy from the police and courts when they treat the assault, the way we saw here.

This isn't uncommon.

So, please REMOVE the "idiot" from your posting.

[IdaBriggs]

17. Did she seriously look afraid of him to you?

Call it good acting, but not to me.

And I do NOT believe this was the first time their relationship was physically violent.

You can say she is putting herself "in more danger by seeking remedy from the police and courts" but the honest to goodness truth is that is NOT why she is staying at this point in time; there are options which can be found in two seconds while looking at a phone.

She might get there later -- staying from fear of what might happen if she leaves, but when things start, that isn't why they stay in the beginning.

No, it isn't uncommon. Yes, it is upsetting. No, I won't remove the title because I think it is more respectful than "stupid, terrified, weak, helpless, mind controlled, brain washed, inept, gold digging woman" all of which have been used to describe her publicly, which implies she is like an abused puppy-dog desperately in need of saving instead of a strong woman struggling to hold a relationship together despite the fact neither of them appears to have the tools to be in a healthy one.

Less than a hundred years ago social workers believed that the only reason women stayed with abusive partners was because of economic necessity. Well, today's woman can support herself financially, sometimes makes *more* than her partner, and yet domestic violence still occurs. Then we went through the "society doesn't discuss it" phase, which pretty much ended when OJ Simpson was accused of killing his ex-wife and her friend, and got away with it, or maybe it was when Farrah Fawcett did a made-for-television movie called "The Burning Bed" where the "thought she was helpless, so she killed him" woman struck back. We're talking about it, but nothing is changing. Then the "resources aren't available" (except we now have a lot of them, but the epidemic is still going on), then the "they don't prosecute them anyway" which isn't true because yes, now they are being prosecuted, but you know what?

It is still going on, and the women are still staying until things get *really* bad, so maybe we should talk about other possible causes --

And I discussed them in my post.

Bottom line: She is NOT property. No one is making her stay. She does NOT want to walk away from the emotional investment she has in the relationship.

She is the victim of a crime. Odds are *very* good she will be again. There is a time and a place for "poor baby" supportive comments. This message board is not one of them.

[moriah]

24. This message board is also not about victim-blaming.

And what do you think you're calling her when you call her an idiot, other than stupid?

(Edit: Other people's bad behavior does not excuse my own, or yours.)

[bettyellen]

48. No Ida, "we" do not. You are doing it, but many of us know better. Speak for yourself.

[Beaverhausen]

53. No "we" don't.

You are sick

[Skidmore]

7. Perhaps your point would have been better made without

the "idiot" accusation being put out there. It detracts from some of the points you make. Dysfunctional systems and behavior must be unlearned and replaced. You were fortunate to gain benefit from the assistance you received while your sisers apparently were not. Hopefully, all trapped in such dsyfunctional systems can find their way to emotional and physical safety and help. Creating a safe environment starts by not castigating people for the skills and insight they are not yet able to access.

[Gormy Cuss]

22. Calling her an idiot is flat out victim blaming.

Regardless of what you wrote after that, the subject line displays an utter lack of empathy for those who have been victims of domestic abuse.

[IdaBriggs]

28. Welcome to a difference of opinion.

You are entitled to yours, including dismissing everything I wrote because you don't like the subject.

I stick by it.

[Gormy Cuss]

32. You repeated the assertion in your text (see, I read it.)

And it's not just a difference of opinion. Your "opinion" to call her an idiot is akin to enabling domestic abuse.

Calling her an idiot is a full stop end of credibility in your post.

[Gormy Cuss]

39. I never agree to disagree with anyone. That's dismissive.

There is nothing supportive about calling her an idiot.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025507512

[IdaBriggs]

41. I saw that thread. It was one of those that inspired this one.

It had some beautiful stuff in it.

Not sure what you are looking for, Gormy. I don't see either one of us changing our minds. You think I have "an utter lack of empathy for those who have been victims of domestic abuse", while I think I've spent a tremendous amount of time, energy, effort and heart ache coming to terms with it from both a personal and societal perspective.

I think I have done a good job bridging the understanding gap in an effort to explain things to people who have no frame of reference for the issues involved, and I also think the term I used is an accurate descriptor both for my own feelings, and those who have to deal with self-inflicted trauma issues like this one. (Best Defense for NOT Getting Abused: Don't Be In An Abusive Relationship.)

I am speaking to you with courtesy and respect. The only common ground we seem to have is that THIS SHIT SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING.

Is there anything else you want out of this conversation? It seems the best I can offer you is to "agree to disagree" about the validity of my opinion, versus yours? Is that really "dismissive" in your mind?

[Gormy Cuss]

84. Yes, "agreeing to disagree" is dismissive

Last edited Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:26 PM - Edit history (2)

though nowhere near as dismissive as calling someone an idiot because she is, for whatever reason, still with the person who abused her.

Best Defense for NOT Getting Abused: Don't Be In An Abusive Relationship

That oversimplification is not helpful to those in abusive relationships. It's also not helpful to those whose life experiences have conditioned them to think getting slapped around is a normal part of a loving relationship. Yes, it is lacking in empathy.

[boston bean]

92. Did you see how she edited the OP to speak of her hide here.

Haven't people been tombstoned for that?

I seem to recall a couple...

[Gormy Cuss]

94. Circumventing the jury system like that is ill-advised.

But then again, so was the original OP text.

[NYC_SKP]

95. No, there is not a violation in doing that.

And the ones you're thinking of had an extended history of mischief, whereas this member has none.

The edit in the OP mentioning the hide, if anything, adds transparency to the matter.

So I don't see what the outrage would be based upon that would lead up to a PPR.

[boston bean]

96. Did I show "outrage" somewhere?

And in editing an OP after it has survived a jury, is circumventing the system, and yes I do believe persons have been banned for doing so.

Do I think Ida should be no. But she did exactly as I stated.

[pintobean]

98. It is circumventing the restrictions placed on her account

by the software, It most certainly is a TOS violation. Whether it's a bannable offense, or not, would be up to admin. I would agree with you about the records, though. It's not like she's had an alert sock, or anything. I would call Ida's couple of hides a squeaky clean record.

[moriah]

33. Then, despite whatever family experience you're going by, you show a lack of understanding.

I can't find the post where you discuss whatever went on in your family, so I don't know it.

What I do know is that anyone who thinks thinks calling a woman an "idiot" for staying with an abuser, rather than calling her a victim of a pattern of manipulative behavior that over time shatters a person's self esteem to the point that they think they don't deserve any better LONG before they ever get hit, is somehow showing her respect probably doesn't have that much respect or empathy for whatever family member was abused, either.

[IdaBriggs]

40. Let me pull it up for you.

I wrote about my eldest sister here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5504277

I shared one of my coping mechanisms here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/125550563

I also shared other stuff about her here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022499019

And I shared some of my past here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024708904

And you know something? You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine.

Welcome to the internet, where everyone does not think the same, and a large percentage of the population, including me, thinks that people who stay in abusive relationships without both parties doing the work to learn healthy coping skills because they don't THINK that way, are idiots.

[moriah]

49. Calling women idiots doesn't help them reclaim the power they've surrendered, though.

(Yes, I read your posts now, and thank you for sharing.)

The only person who can heal successfully enough to actually get the gumption to leave, yes, is the victim. But calling her an idiot isn't going to help. You seem to attack the victim in the video because she stood up to her abuser rather than cower down in front of him. Maybe she was trying, right for that moment, to reclaim that power.

Instead of calling victims of abuse idiots, why not try to do something constructive? Send them things like that thing you wrote about them not being punching bags. It's awful to watch, it's not fun, you feel totally helpless when you see someone going back again and again. But calling them idiots is dismissive, rude, insensitive, and completely over the top, and I have no idea why this hasn't already been alerted on.

It's not just a difference of opinion, it's a difference of philosophy, and the victim-blaming philosophy should NOT be welcome on DU.

[IdaBriggs]

58. Perspective is everything: you saw me "attack the victim for standing up to her abuser."

Moriah, I did not. I reported a factual observation. She was in a survival moment of "Fight, Flight or Freeze" and she went for Fight.

So did he.

When a narrative is created about a "helpless victim" one has to ignore the facts. Fact: the two of them were bickering and bickering is not a punch worthy crime.

Fact: She was doing "playful" (?) back handed slaps while they were bickering, but again that does not justify the physical escalation of violence that occurred.

We don't know what they said to each other before all hell broke loose, and the bottom line is that I don't care:

NOTHING justified what happened in that elevator.

In the perfect world of Ida-In-Charge these two would be sent to a relationship concentration camp until they worked out their individual issues, dealt with the past trauma/drama they have created, and mastered some basic "how not to be in an abusive relationship" life skills. Unfortunately ( I do not rule the world, and the two of them seem to have settled in to "the real problem is that people won't leave us alone to work out our issues" mode.

At a certain point, a person has to take responsibilities for the choices they make, whether that be to stay or go.

She married the guy who punched her unconscious. He married the woman he punched unconscious.

“I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost... I am helpless.
It isn't my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I am in the same place.
But, it isn't my fault.
It still takes me a long time to get out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in. It's a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault. I get out immediately.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.

I walk down another street.”

― Portia Nelson, There's a Hole in My Sidewalk: The Romance of Self-Discovery

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/95085-i-walk-down-the-street-there-is-a-deep-hole

[cwydro]

76. I think she's a damn fool.

So I reckon we agree, lol.

[Chan790]

47. Considering she's now giving interviews and making statements like this one?

I woke up this morning feeling like I had a horrible nightmare, feeling like I’m mourning the death of my closest friend. But you have to accept the fact that reality is a nightmare in itself. No one knows the pain that the media and unwanted [opinions] from the public has cause my family. To make us relive a moment in our lives that we regret every day is a horrible thing. To take something away from the man I love that he has worked his ass off for all his life just to gain ratings is horrific. THIS IS OUR LIFE! What don’t you all get. If your intentions were to hurt us, embarrass us, make us feel alone, take all happiness away, you succeeded on so many levels. Just know we will continue to grow and show the world what real love is! Ravens nation we love you!

http://www.salon.com/2014/09/09/janay_rice_responds_to_footage_of_her_assault_being_made_public_husbands_release_from_ravens

It seems that her position is "How dare you stand-up for me and other victims of domestic abuse!"

[Beaverhausen]

51. Thank you

This OP disgusts me.

[trumad]

5. Good post Ida....

I once tossed an XBox controller at my son because he kept kicking my ass in the game we were playing. I hit him right in the head. I honestly didn't mean it---- but nonetheless, I hit him. It hurt him... He cried, I was mortified. My first instinct was to get to him and make sure he was OK...he was.... and then beg forgiveness for my stupidity.

Point is.... My reaction for hurting a loved one was of sheer terror and concern.

Ray Rices reaction was to drag her out of the elevator like a rag doll and drop her. His reaction after the punch is as telling as anything in my book.

[TexasProgresive]

9. The analogy that comes to my mind is

you take a couple of aspirins and break out in hives, uncomfortable but you'll live. Then one day you take a couple of aspirins and the reaction is more severe- anaphylaxis. Your blood pressure drops and you throat swells and you die.

This guy is like that. What he did once is a warning sign. The next time it may be the same or it may result in her death or the death of her child.

I wouldn't use the word idiot but the word fool. She is twice the fool because it the one fooling her is herself. These thing do not have a good outcome-best to cut your losses and get out.

[Historic NY]

11. She married him because she thought he'd change...

that rarely if ever will happen. No one deserves to be a punching bag.

[Oktober]

13. then she can stop him from "over reacting" the next time by NOT provoking him.

What the fuck.....?

IF mommy behaves then she won't make daddy lose his temper? Really?

[IdaBriggs]

19. I am glad you see the STUPID in the comment.

Unfortunately, it is one of the ways people in co-dependent abusive relationships explain the unexplainable to themselves.

Sometimes, it is all about who has the perceived control. If she convinces herself that she really is to blame -- that *she* had the *power* to "make him" do stuff, then she can "control him" by simply not doing (fill-in-the-blank) next time.

Of course it is bullshit. Despite her ability to "magically mind control HIM" he was the person who was 100% in control of his own actions. But both sides usually play the game.

"If you didn't (fill-in-the-blank), then I wouldn't drink / hit you / cheat on you / do drugs / drive drunk / lie / yell / etc."

Bottom line: when we do bad things, it is because we made a choice, out of the many, Many, MANY different ways we could handle a situation, to do *that* particular action. And telling ourselves "well, it could be worse, because we/they could have (fill-in-the-blank) instead" is a way to excuse it.

Sometimes a person really has to twist their mind into pretzel shapes to accept unacceptable behavior, but people do that, too.

It isn't *healthy* behavior, but it is more common than you would believe.

[tblue37]

37. Ida was describing what the woman was thinking, not what Ida herself believes. nt

[Sheldon Cooper]

14. Just when you think you've seen everything, a thread like this comes along.

What's that Lily Tomlin quote? Oh yeah..."No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up." That's about how I'm feeling right now.

[Brickbat]

15. Well, this is helpful.

[pampango]

16. Good post (content), terrible title. You make many great points but calling her an 'idiot' rather

than 'unfortunately typical of abuse victims' compromises the impact of your message. (I realize that provocative titles are the secret to attracting some folks attention around here.)

[IdaBriggs]

21. It is the not-so-secret opinion of most people.

Or the "brain washed/mentally ill/helpless slave/gold digger" contingent also has quite a few followers, too.

I am going to stick with my take on the matter, but to be fair, my family dynamic is definitely influencing my opinion.

Thank you for the kind words.

[Starry Messenger]

18. Wow.

If he kills her, what name will you call her then?

[IdaBriggs]

26. Please read what you just wrote.

You, a total stranger to her life (as am I), *ACKNOWLEDGE* the *reality* that she is partnered with a person who has a coping skill involving physical abuse, and you think there is a *POSSIBILITY* He. Might. Kill. Her.

And after she learned in no uncertain terms that she was not safe from physical assault by him, even in a public place, she stood in front of her friends and family, and promised to love, honor and cherish him for the rest of her life.

*IF* he kills her -- !!

[Starry Messenger]

97. God, for someone who hectors other on rudeness, you sure take the cake.

[NightWatcher]

20. Wow, we've certainly a lot of people who seem to know everything about everyone

Do you want to expose one horrible moment of your life to the world and invite others to judge you?

Come on, crack open a chapter of your life and let everyone see and judge and call you names. Got any regrets, painful decisions you made in your youth???

You never know what anyone else is going through in their life, so try not to judge.

[IdaBriggs]

23. If you read the post, you know I've been laying it out there.

And yes, I have a whole bunch of people judging me at the moment, with the difference being *I* made a choice to bring my past into this discussion, while she didn't choose to become the public face of domestic violence.

I totally understand someone choosing denial as a coping strategy, as opposed to facing having to end a relationship that means a lot to them, and then undergoing years of therapy to figure out *why* they ended up there in the first place. I am comfortable with the life choices I have made, unhappy about those made by people I care about, and mature enough to know there is *nothing* I can do except try to explain this absolutely UNEXPLAINABLE THING to people who don't think about how they might react if someone they love physically assaults them.

Trust me. I am all kinds of judge-y. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

[mentalsolstice]

81. Here are the bright shiny moments from Ida's life that she has shared on DU

Blasts from the past. Oh if only we all had the insight Ida has on how others should live their lives, the world would be all rainbows and unicorns!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=795074&mesg_id=795074

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2499019

[treestar]

30. That does help explain why people stay with their abusers

I'm afraid people allowed themselves to be distracted by calling her an idiot.

She may not even be one - but in her situation, is finding a way to justify it and believe it won't happen again.

[ladjf]

31. I sympathize with Mrs. Price.

But, she needs to realize that the disciplinary action taken against her husband for his bad behavior was society's attempt to prevent thousands of other wives from being abused. And the NFL appeared to be covering their ass after the tape was seen by all.

[LexVegas]

34. I think that people like you are the problem. Not the victim.

This commentary would be right at home on an ESPN set, next to the likes of Mike Ditka and Keyshawn Johnson.

[IdaBriggs]

43. I think the problem is MOSTLY the guy who hit her.

I think the next time she gets hit, it will partially be because she did not leave.

But, it is always good to have someone decide that I am responsible for her domestic abuse situation.

Man, I am starting to feel bad about it. Maybe I should call her up so we can do lunch, and I can explain to her that I've decided she ISN'T an idiot if she stays in an unhealthy abusive relationship. We've never met, so it might be a little awkward, but since my opinion is so flaming POWERFUL that it is responsible for keeping a woman in an abusive relationship that occurred six months before I typed out my thoughts, she will probably be excited that she can now escape it thanks to my permission to not think of herself as an Idiot.



But thank you for explaining that really, *I* am the problem, and not the people who are, you know, HITTING EACH OTHER.

[Tatiana]

36. I wouldn't call her an idiot. If anything, I would say she made an idiotic decision.

She may be very intelligent. However, we don't know what her home family was like. Did she grow up in an abusive household? Many children who grow up in abusive households and see violence between their parents end up repeating the same patterns in their own relationships.

It's clear that she has been coached. It's easy to be on the outside looking in and think "I would never tolerate that behavior!" She is probably facing an enormous amount of pressure to help Ray Rice clean up his image. I watched that press conference. She didn't look like a woman in love to me (I know, looks can be deceiving). She looked like someone who was trapped, and resigned to make the best of a bad situation.

[AverageJoe90]

117. This is a good point that you've made, Tatiana.

It is indeed quite possible that she grew up in a bad home; quite a few women who suffered crappy relationships do.

[Heidi]

42. How does your calling a victim of domestic violence an "idiot" help advance

the dialogue about domestic violence? How does it make anything better for anyone, man or woman, who is a victim of domestic violence?

[IdaBriggs]

50. Ask the same question about any of the other ways we as a society have handled this discussion.

1) Women only stay because they are financially dependent. NOT TRUE. Women are now able to be financially independent, and the rates of reported domestic violence have not decreased.

2) Women only stay because of societal pressures. NOT TRUE. Women who choose to leave abusive relationships are not social pariahs.

3) Women can't get support from the police or courts. NOT TRUE. Prosecutions of domestic violence and perpetrators of domestic violence regularly see court and jail time.

4) Women who stay in abusive relationships are weak and/or mentally ill. This is a currently accepted "truth" and I bloody well disagree with it. Abuse happens to all kinds of people - men and women - and there is no one "personality" that is more susceptible than another to it. We can debate the power of self-esteem and co-dependency in more detail, but to address your question --

There are two types of people who clicked on this thread:

1) Those who were MORTALLY OFFENDED by my calling an abuse victim AN IDIOT for marrying her abuser, who wanted to castigate me and explain what a terrible person I am / was / will always be. This is a message board, and those types of flame fests are pretty darn common. Fortunately, I am pretty centered in who I am, so the nastier messages are going to go whooshing right by me. I did put on some flame retardant armor before wading into this discussion -- yesterday was full of a lot of triggers for me, and I thought long and hard before I made my not-politically-correct post.

and

2) Those who harbored the Not-So-Secret Suspicion, that Yes, this woman had to be a Full-Out-Flaming IDIOT for marrying a man who physically assaulted her in a public place in a brutal and horrible fashion, which means she has increased her odds of becoming a "death statistic" in the future. I hope like hell I've explained some of the dynamic to those who can't understand it, because it would be nice if some of what I've learned over the years was actually useful to others, but more importantly, by bringing up the real issues - coping mechanisms and learned behavior - maybe, just MAYBE we can find a way to stop the damn cycle of violence.

But I am not a professional (which I've stated). This is my opinion, and like it or not, I've put it out there as part of the discussion.

There is a time and a place for compassion; there is a time and a place to try to find other ways of understanding on-going problems.

Eventually the thread will drop. I hope some of what I've said sticks. Maybe someone who is living through it can "get it" that if they *really* want a horrible, nasty abusive relationship to become a healthy, sustainable one, both parties are going to have to learn new strategies, dredge up the past/deal with the demons, and GROW in new directions.

It is hard work. Denial is easier. If the work doesn't get done, the question is only "when" things will get worse.

And only an Idiot wants to live with worse.

[pipi_k]

44. This is one of those issues

that, for me, is extremely frustrating because I can see both sides.

I grew up in an abusive home. My father laid his hands on my mother loads of times, and she herself wasn't above throwing a pan of hot soup or something else at him.

As an adult, I got involved with a series of abusive men.

I know all the tricks they pull to get their victims to stay, and I know how difficult it is for a woman with kids to leave, especially if she doesn't have a job or career of her own.

And I know all about the "But I looooooove him!" thing.

I know all that.

But in each case, for some unknown reason, I was able to find the strength to leave...even with small children.


So while I understand the reasons for staying, I also want to shake those women and tell them that they have to love themselves more than they "love" their abusers.

and if they have children, all the more important it is for them NOT to expose the kids to any kind of domestic violence.

Being a child in a violent home was, IMO, worse than being the adult in the same circumstances. It did irreparable damage.

The kids are always the real victims in those relationships.

Oh, and if someone chooses to try and "work it out", there has to be real effort. Like anger management and marriage counseling. No counseling = no marriage, as far as I'm concerned.

[IdaBriggs]

60. Your post moved me to tears (and I've been staying strong in this thread).

I also want to shake those women and tell them that they have to love themselves more than they "love" their abusers.

Yes! Yes! YES!!! This, a thousand times this!!!

Thank you for sharing.

[Autumn]

45. At first I disagreed with you calling her an idiot. But you are right.

This woman has one resource that other women who are abused don't have. She has the media. I'm going to recommend your OP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025508317

[exboyfil]

46. The whole situation is very complex

Early in my parent's marriage, my dad broke my mom's jaw and knocked several teeth out. I was very young at the time. There were other examples of abuse and infidelity that I know about, and probably many I do not. They stayed together 44 years until my dad's death at 65. My dad left her his 401(k), their, house, his pension and she is also on his social security. If she had left him earlier in the marriage she would never have had that level of income security, and my life would have been very different. In spite of it all I still love my dad and had many good times with him. I would not have like growing up separated from him like my half brother did.

I have never struck my wife of 27 years. We have had verbal altercations and there were times that I was verbally abusive which I deeply regret. I have instructed my two daughters in no uncertain terms to immediately leave a relationship if physical abuse occurs. They understand this and they are pursuing careers that will allow them to be independent irrespective of who they marry (my wife, mother, and both grandparents did not have this option). Both my grandmothers were in abusive relationships as well.

One common denominator in the abuse was alcohol. Neither my wife nor I drink, and I have strongly discouraged my daughters to drink.

I can't imagine how difficult it is for women with children who have husbands/boyfriends who are abusive. You throw in the threat to income security which happened in this case, and you can see how the wife will be lashing out. I think it is misdirected, but the rebound for witch hunts against husband's paychecks is going to be less income security for these women with probably nothing done about the abusive relationship. My mom never turned my dad in and the threat that him being in jail would cost him his job was one factor.

[riderinthestorm]

111. Janay Palmer Rice has a bachelors degree in communications

She has the education and intelligence to be independent.

Trying to imply that she's staying (or anyone else) because of $$ is unfair.

[exboyfil]

112. Income security is always a factor

it isn't the only factor of course. She herself indicated her concern of the lost earning potential of her husband in her post. My feeling is that Ray Rice is probably a lot like my dad. My dad and my mom eventually worked things out as I indicated in my earlier post, but my mom, who did have a job as a waitress in high end restaurants, recognized that fracturing the family and setting up two households would have an economic impact. I am pretty sure that was a factor in her decision to stay with my father.

I have not gone nearly as far as some to call her a gold digger or an idiot. I think she is a woman who is trying to provide for her child and truly loves a man who was horribly abusive to her at least once. The road ahead for them will be more difficult. Ray Rice has very limited career options available to him at this point, and a communications degree does not translate well to immediate income for his wife.

My dad was not a demon. Ray Rice is not a demon either. I really wish the whole thing had been handled better from the beginning. I have heard posted that abusive relationships end in either separation or death, but that did not happen with my family. Eventually whatever anger my father had left him and he was no longer abusive to my mom.

[riderinthestorm]

113. There are many DUer posts to the contrary. FEAR is a constant, not income security

I'm not trying to minimize your experience in the least It's just that income security as a causative factor is so statistically irrelevant that linking it to the Rice case is completely absurd.

It's just not a factor for the vast majority of DV cases.

[AtheistCrusader]

52. Pretend I've been living under a rock. Who are we talking about here?

[IdaBriggs]

66. A football player (Boston Ravens?) named Ray Rice

assaulted his then-fiance in an elevator back in February.

The NFL gave him a two-week suspension. Meanwhile, someone who tested positive for marijuana got (I think?) a six week suspension. They got married after the incident happened.

The video from the elevator surfaced yesterday, and it is brutal. You can see it on this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5503366

It is bringing up a lot of triggers and discussion about domestic abuse/violence, how it enabled/minimized/trivialized abuse against women, how victims are blamed for either "letting it happen" or "not getting away", and bonus: the value the NFL places on marijuana versus punching a woman unconscious as crimes.

I hope that helps.

[AtheistCrusader]

67. Holy shit...

If she'd hit her head on the floor a little bit differently, that would have been a homicide
That got him a 2 game suspension? Really?

He should be in jail

[IdaBriggs]

70. Most of us agree with you. She apparently does not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025508268

[AtheistCrusader]

71. I have no words...

I apparently, have been living under a rock on mars. With my fingers in my ears.

I don't even know what to say, reading that. Wow. She's defending him. I don't even...

[Marrah_G]

110. Baltimore

[rbrnmw]

54. You should take idiot out of your subject line

I have been a victim anybody could be we aren't idiots.

[loyalsister]

55. Yeah, my sister felt like that too

about herself. As she thought about it that way more and more, she began to feel like she deserved what she was getting. And she stayed for far too long.
My point is it doesn't help to perpetuate a degrading sentiment that many women hear and eventually internalize.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

56. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message
On Tue Sep 9, 2014, 10:49 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

She married him because she is an idiot.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025507994

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Denying this woman is battered is disgusting, and way more stupid than this woman is. Ignorance and hatred. Pls lock this.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Sep 9, 2014, 11:06 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I would ordinary vote to lock, but the OP needs to hear the arguments presented as to why calling the woman an "idiot" negates her own argument of how complex this is. It is a discussion that should be held in the thread.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I agree the word idiot should be removed and it's a bit controversial but it's not hide worthy.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's an opinion that is not hide-worthy. I don't see where anyone denied her being a battered woman. We'll see how strong their love is if she leaves him when he's not bringing in that NFL paycheck, instead of leaving him after physically abusing her. I am not blaming the victim; but she did marry him after he knocked her unconscious.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerter: People get to state their opinion. You don't get to hide it just because you don't like it.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[pintobean]

61. Which juror were you?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

62. #7. Problem? nt

[pintobean]

63. That was my guess

[ChisolmTrailDem]

64. Based on...what exactly?

I don't like the 'idiot' language, but it doesn't break the rules that lead to a hide.

I respectfully answered your question. Please answer mine. Problem?

[pintobean]

72. "it doesn't break the rules that lead to a hide"

What rules? There are no rules. Jurors use their own best judgment.
Given that this community has many victims of domestic violence, and these guidelines

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

I would say calling a victim an idiot most certainly is hide worthy.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

73. So, that I and 5 other jurors voted to let it stay, says what...exactly? BTW,

I am also a victim of domestic violence.

[pintobean]

74. I can't answer that

but the irony is making me struggle.

ETA - another jury hid it 5-2 when she doubled down.
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10025507994#post38

[ChisolmTrailDem]

78. So, what exactly are you trying to say about my voting to leave it? nt

[zappaman]

114. I would have hid it.

It seems like some jurors don't understand the system.

[IdaBriggs]

68. Thank you for sharing this.

I don't know why the alerter thought I was "Denying this woman is battered".

Alerter, if you read this post, please note I am NOT denying this woman was physically assaulted, nor do I find the behavior justifiable in any manner shape or form.

Jury members, thank you for leaving the thread. I know it is a tough topic, and I appreciate your allowing the discussion to take place, even if the flames for my word choice are pretty hot.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

69. Yw, though I don't care for the 'idiot' language. nt

[lunatica]

57. Calling her an idiot is offensive, mean and ugly

What a bizarre OP!

[Lex]

105. I guess the OP feels the need to get in a smack at Janay Rice too.

Regardless of what comes next in the OP, that subject line is offensive.

[Avalux]

59. She is not an idiot, she has made choices that are not in her best interest.

As someone who has been where Janay is, I am deeply offended that you would choose that word.

She lacks self love and self respect which keeps her tied to him, she has given up her power to him. In her mind, the reasons for staying with him seem perfectly reasonable and justified. Maybe she grew up in a home where domestic violence was the norm; maybe she has been a victim from a young age. Maybe she has weighed the pros and cons and told herself "he's nice to me most of the time, and he provides a fantastic lifestyle. I'm ok with an occasional smack in the face".

Whatever her thought processes, Janay doesn't think she is worthy of anything better or she'd leave. I hope she gets the help she needs, I hope she can learn to realize she doesn't really love and certainly doesn't need a man who treats her like an animal. It's taken me a long time to get to that place. I'd rather live under a bridge than go back to that.

I made bad choices, but I was never an idiot.

[PeaceNikki]

65. FYI: you are not an authority on DV or her. You just aren't.

Just stop, you're being offensive and hurtful.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

88. and ironically idiotic. nt

[LanternWaste]

75. I imagine you feel very empowered by pretending to know why or why not any given couple stays togeth

"She married him because she is an idiot..."

I imagine you feel very empowered by pretending to know why or why not any given couple stays together and pretending to know who is or is not an idiot based on little more than Hollywood gossip.

But pretense is all it really is...

[leftstreet]

77. +1

These posts make DU look stupid

[Tikki]

79. I know someone who went back and forth in a relationship before she married the guy.

Both ended up in Court separate times claiming domestic violence.

Shortly before the marriage the guy had this woman go to court and recant her statements and say
she lied about his domestic violence.

He, on the other hand, never went to court and recanted his accusation that she was violent to him.

I have never been able to be around him since. She does have family near by who looks in on her.


Tikki

[PeaceNikki]

82. You should just delete this piece of shit OP. You've already been locked out of it.

Delete it.

[mentalsolstice]

83. You never cease to amaze!

You're definitely not an expert, that's for sure! Get back to us when you've worked on the front lines in DV situations, as I have for 9-10 hours per day, dealing with 25-50 cases per week. Tell us what you think then.

However, you'll have to start a new thread, seeing how you got kicked out of this one.

[LeftyMom]

85. What the everloving fuck is the matter with you? nt

[WilliamPitt]

86. Jury results

See if you can guess which one I was.

On Tue Sep 9, 2014, 12:08 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

What the everloving fuck is the matter with you? nt
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5509417

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Personal attack.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Sep 9, 2014, 12:18 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Ermahgerd, she wrote "fuck"!!1!1!!
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[LeftyMom]

90. Gee, how am I ever going to find your comment? ;)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

87. a lack of empathy? a desire to be iconoclastic? general douchery?

[AuntPatsy]

89. It is an important issue, I'm not sure why you could not see the problem, in a place where

words are all we have to communicate with, They Matter, that said, your op contained some interesting points, I read your sisters have all been in such relationships, you've been smarter which I think is how you view it but in a nut shell, that was judgemental as hell...

And unless you've been in that situation, you could never possibly understand the complexities of it all....never...


Id·i·ot noun \ˈi-dē-ət\
: a very stupid or foolish person


Full Definition of IDIOT

1
usually offensive : a person affected with extreme mental retardation
2
: a foolish or stupid person
— idiot adjective

[NCTraveler]

91. Calling an abused woman an idiot is a form of abuse. You have it in you.

You don't need to know her personally for it to show an abusive personality on your part. You know her well enough to call her an idiot....you know her enough to be abusive toward her. This shows a lack of understanding. After reading one of your old links up thread I understand your why you feel you must say these things. My heart goes out to you.

[Lex]

106. My thought exactly.

Another way to take a swat.

[NYC_SKP]

93. IMO, like Snookie and her fans, there's a lot of "it" going around, it's an American thing.

Not exclusively American, of course. Europe has it's hooligans and it's share of celebrities.

But here it seems to be have reached crazy levels.

I blame the fans. Fans make the NFL owners money, some goes to players, rich players go to casinos and attract women, women fall for them because they are so funny and articulate and fun to be with.

My experience with folks like these leads me to think that they're not very bright, and I mean the athletes and their circle of friends. Not very bright.

But this whole mess would not be if not for the fans.

Did anyone else catch the "no cops" comment made by hotel staff outside the elevator? This is special treatment for a special guest, special because he is a pro athlete.

I won't watch pro football, and I don't think anyone else should support it, either.

Join your local service organization instead and do some good work in the community.

[lindysalsagal]

99. People choose what's familiar: Alcohol, abuse, neglect, whatever. Smart people do, too.

Lots of intelligent women, and occasionally men, allow themselves to become enablers of violent offenders.

It's what they grew up with, and they simply don't believe there is any other way.

I'm hoping that this will send her the help she needs to believe that there is a better way and that she deserves that for herself.

I also hope he has some good friends who will shine a light on his violence, which will continue until someone cares enough to challenge him in a loving way.

Forgiveness will come when each sees their own guilt, and forgiveness is the only real way to change.

[mentalsolstice]

104. All walks of life!

DV victims/survivors come from all walks of life. As I mentioned upthread, in my former life I worked for our local DV program and shelter. I've counseled women who were college professors and lawyers. It's rather futile to tackle the hows and whys of their past and present situations. Only solution is to get them to a safe place and work toward future options.

The OP is worthy. It's an insult to all female and male DU members who have faced domestic violence and the outcomes in their own personal lives.

[Niceguy1]

100. it is her choice

And shaming her for making that choice isnt helpful.

[Saffron]

102. Fox News responds to domestic violence.

Don't do it in an elevator. Do it in the stairwell, where there are no cameras.

http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2014/09/ray_rice_elevator_video_joking.html

[uppityperson]

107. She is NOT an idiot, she knows HIT is his response. It is much more complicated than that.

trying to avoid getting my post hidden by using bad language, is difficult

[Marrah_G]

108. I find your point of view on this revolting.

[steve2470]

109. I don't agree with you

She *probably* thought it was a one-time occurrence, that he would repent and never do it again. She was incorrect, if that's what she thought. Love can blind us all, myself included.

Sorry, I don't agree. Even very highly intelligent people make "mistakes" like this.

[flvegan]

115. No, she's an idiot for defending him and his actions.

At least, that's what I got from it all.

[AverageJoe90]

116. To be honest, Ida.....I disagree with some of your points.

As much as I'd like to believe that this won't happen again.....I'm afraid there's no real guarantees just yet. Sadly, this kinda thing does happen on a regular, or at least semi-regular basis, in many cases. And, also, some battered women don't always express their fears openly.....some may not even know that they were wronged until it's too late(and yes, I do think calling her an "idiot" is a bit too harsh).

With that said, however, that hasn't lessened my respect for you. I decided to go ahead and give the post a rec, and partly because you drove the point home that nobody deserves to be a victim. And I say, amen to that.