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brentspeak

(18,290 posts)
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 12:21 PM Sep 2014

Obama finalizing plans to have your tech job replaced by foreigners

Or, if you're lucky enough to hold onto your job, it's likely your wages will be kept stagnant by the further influx pool of cheap foreign labor.

Tech industry groups lobbied Obama, gave him their "wish list", and he is happily responding in kind: spouses of H-1B visa holders who are currently in the US will be granted the same work visas as their spouses, thus doubling (at the very least) the number of available H-1B's in the US. And surprise, surprise! The US Chamber of Offshoring/Commerce is fully on board with the administration's plan to double the number of H-1B visas through the spouse loophole.

(Followup to some previous posts on the subject.)



http://www.computerworld.com/article/2598332/technology-law-regulation/obama-s-options-for-tech-immigration-take-shape.html

Obama's options for tech immigration take shape

By Patrick Thibodeau
Computerworld | Aug 20, 2014 5:38 PM PT

When President Barack Obama takes executive action on immigration, he's expected to give final approval to a rule allowing spouses of H-1B visa holders, now barred from working in the U.S., to get jobs. There could be more changes as well as the Obama administration has met with various tech groups to collect wish lists.

snip

More certain is final White House approval of a rule to allow spouses of H-1B visa holders who are seeking green cards with authorization to work. For now, spouses can't hold jobs.

Writing in opposition was the Society of Professional Engineering in Aerospace (SPEEA), whose members are employed as scientists and in technical positions at several large companies, including Boeing.

SPEEA said that there is "the strong likelihood" that spouses will have science, technology, engineering and math degrees (STEM), and that in many cases may work for the same employer are their H-1B holding spouse. It warned that if the rule is adopted, "employers will likely exploit this opportunity by preferentially hiring H-1B workers with STEM-degreed spouses in order to acquire two STEM workers with one H-1B visa."

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce supports the (granting of H-1B's to spouses) rule, arguing that employed spouses "will improve the likelihood that highly skilled H-1B workers will seek to stay in the U.S. on a permanent basis and remain in the U.S. labor force."


Thibodeau: An H-1B cap hike would mean a grim future for workers.
182 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Obama finalizing plans to have your tech job replaced by foreigners (Original Post) brentspeak Sep 2014 OP
k&r for labor. n/t Laelth Sep 2014 #1
Hillary has opined on a number of occasions that the poor tech employers just cannot find merrily Sep 2014 #2
Tech employers(poor souls that they are) can't find qualified Americans.. freebrew Sep 2014 #26
Sing it! merrily Sep 2014 #31
you obviously know what you're talking about LittleGirl Sep 2014 #58
I just know what I've experienced... freebrew Sep 2014 #99
Bingo! Scuba Sep 2014 #106
Her class of people hates union workers warrant46 Sep 2014 #30
I would not necessarily put it that way. merrily Sep 2014 #39
Hillary should also be cognizant that earnings by H-1B workers often LEAVE OUR ECONOMY! cascadiance Sep 2014 #77
from what she said, stimulus was not in the forefront of her reasoning. merrily Sep 2014 #79
Oh, I forgot, she just PRETENDS she wants to help the economy recover... cascadiance Sep 2014 #80
Hillary on outsourcing and visas antigop Sep 2014 #155
"Want fries with that?" merrily Sep 2014 #158
In Other words: "Happy Labor Day... here's a big F.U." ChromeFoundry Sep 2014 #3
+1 woo me with science Sep 2014 #6
+2 n/t OhioChick Sep 2014 #27
I wonder if this will get as many rec's as the one last week about his highness's "I'd join a union" Doctor_J Sep 2014 #33
+1 leftstreet Sep 2014 #42
+1000 nt abelenkpe Sep 2014 #43
Awesome !! warrant46 Sep 2014 #44
Yeah but he gave such a pretty Labor Day speech! pa28 Sep 2014 #62
Be reasonable. Don't you know that the whole idea is to equalize salaries across the globe? sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #141
Equalizing salaries across the globe (more equality) would be a good thing. Lowering them would not. pampango Sep 2014 #147
Of course raising the pay rates and equalizing them globally would be the right thing to do. sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #149
Maybe its time BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #4
It is pretty much a second-world power with nukes. It actually ballyhoo Sep 2014 #29
We will be leaving the country before long LittleGirl Sep 2014 #59
"Welcome to Sweden"! cascadiance Sep 2014 #78
My grandparents left their country... meaculpa2011 Sep 2014 #114
RARELY on EARTH in any country is there a 2 STEM household ESPECIALLY in the same field... uponit7771 Sep 2014 #5
But there likely will be with this... cascadiance Sep 2014 #8
Are you kidding? BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #9
Got anything empirical? I work in a STEM field... rarely do the spouces have same STEM occupation uponit7771 Sep 2014 #10
Show us the numbers - TBF Sep 2014 #18
If you went to an engineering school you must have been aware that there were WOMEN there. pnwmom Sep 2014 #22
My husband and I are both in the same field abelenkpe Sep 2014 #46
My spouse does Android3.14 Sep 2014 #127
People, your individual experiences...howbeit beautiful are not empirical... out of 3.5 billion work uponit7771 Sep 2014 #148
Your "understanding" has no data at this point Android3.14 Sep 2014 #152
Oh, and try this as a starter Android3.14 Sep 2014 #153
The article doesn't even freakin mention STEM... what the hell are you "hating"?! uponit7771 Sep 2014 #177
There I go again Android3.14 Sep 2014 #179
You couldn't be more wrong. Who do you think most women in STEM fields marry? pnwmom Sep 2014 #19
Yoo Hoo! Over here! Barack_America Sep 2014 #86
"A little HOF" Starry Messenger Sep 2014 #122
Hang on, here's a bit of refutation Android3.14 Sep 2014 #154
Plenty of them in Silicon Valley Retrograde Sep 2014 #176
Post removed Post removed Sep 2014 #7
This is about driving wages into the ground BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #11
My brother-in-law had a dry wall hanging business Sopkoviak Sep 2014 #17
Um... BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #25
Cheap Labor Is Cheap Labor TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #48
+1 dreamnightwind Sep 2014 #84
*woosh* SammyWinstonJack Sep 2014 #12
Companies have used H1B visas as form a displacement, that's not in dispute I don't think this is... uponit7771 Sep 2014 #13
It's going to be a far higher lift than what you are predicting, because most of pnwmom Sep 2014 #21
Thaks for expanding the information. n/t truedelphi Sep 2014 #52
How about we take away your computer and give it to some random person on the street. ChromeFoundry Sep 2014 #14
He hates bosses exploiting workers not immigrants Generic Other Sep 2014 #15
We just don't want an uneven playing field and legalized INDENTURED SERVITUDE! cascadiance Sep 2014 #16
Entitled? It's bad enough that we're pushing our young people into STEM fields on the basis pnwmom Sep 2014 #20
So are you saying that Sopkoviak Sep 2014 #23
These "top" STEM workers can usually find jobs in their own countries, which need pnwmom Sep 2014 #38
US tech workers have already had their wages suppressed for years illegally abelenkpe Sep 2014 #37
I work for a software company and we have so many openings for Engineers it's not funny. dilby Sep 2014 #24
What does this mean? Demobrat Sep 2014 #35
Age is not the issue for my company we have all ages. Culturaly we are very progressive and green. dilby Sep 2014 #40
So your company runs on the good kind of stereotype and bias lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #50
Most companies have a culture and they prefer to hire those who fit the company culture. dilby Sep 2014 #53
Much like Chick Fil A has a culture. n/t lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #81
All companies have them. dilby Sep 2014 #82
So a female gay engineer from the south would or would not be a good fit? Jamastiene Sep 2014 #156
We have southern engineers. dilby Sep 2014 #169
The culture at my local Chick Fil A TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #143
It's discrimination, like it or not! JDPriestly Sep 2014 #137
Interesting because companies who hire bigots, homophobes, misogynists and abusers are regularly dilby Sep 2014 #142
Your commitment to diversity is reflected in the kind of people whom you refuse to hire? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2014 #144
Can you give me an example of a post in which a DUer condemned a company that hires JDPriestly Sep 2014 #145
You are correct we hire people who we get along with. dilby Sep 2014 #146
But you don't discriminate based on traits with which a person is born like race, sexual preference, JDPriestly Sep 2014 #182
oh gross Enrique Sep 2014 #68
My son is Southern and will probably be attending GA Tech. Fawke Em Sep 2014 #96
The accent is not an issue. dilby Sep 2014 #120
Kind of changing your tune. TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #121
Because Rednecks from the South are different than Southerners. dilby Sep 2014 #125
Just let it slide, dilby Android3.14 Sep 2014 #180
Lol, unfortunately, I've met far too many "redneck engineers." Jamastiene Sep 2014 #157
Yet, people from other countries will fit in to your culture? Live and Learn Sep 2014 #108
Where do you get that from? n/t dilby Sep 2014 #126
I guess I was blinded by the Live and Learn Sep 2014 #160
I understand peoples problem with the culture thing. dilby Sep 2014 #170
Thanks for clarifying what you meant. Live and Learn Sep 2014 #181
Funny, that's what some guys think about women in STEM TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #118
Where is your company? abelenkpe Sep 2014 #41
Company is in Portland. dilby Sep 2014 #47
Political litmus test? meaculpa2011 Sep 2014 #116
No kidding! TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #119
All companies have litmus tests. Even those in government positions like the DMV and police. BlueCaliDem Sep 2014 #134
What that guy is doing is illegal, women are a protected class. dilby Sep 2014 #139
I know. But it's pretty hard to prove that kind of discrimination in a court of law. BlueCaliDem Sep 2014 #140
Actually more like a progressive litmus test. dilby Sep 2014 #124
You can dress it up, wrap it and put a pretty pink bow on it... meaculpa2011 Sep 2014 #133
Since misogynists and homophobes are not protected classes I think we are safe. dilby Sep 2014 #135
Is the Ludovico Treatment part of your hiring process? meaculpa2011 Sep 2014 #136
Why is H1 visa bad but illegal imigration good? Travis_0004 Sep 2014 #28
Illegal imigrants milk cows and clean toilets warrant46 Sep 2014 #34
Illegal immigrants do a lot more than that TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #49
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This! n/t truedelphi Sep 2014 #51
Yup. n/t amandabeech Sep 2014 #83
^^K&R^^ Progressive dog Sep 2014 #110
NICE LIST warrant46 Sep 2014 #163
I don't think anyone says illegal immigration is good. NCTraveler Sep 2014 #36
Unbridled support for illegal immigration and they don't think it is a good? TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #54
"Unbridled support for illegal immigration and they don't think it is a good?" NCTraveler Sep 2014 #56
How many people here claim TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #60
I have yet to see illegal immigration called a good thing. NCTraveler Sep 2014 #64
Really? TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #66
you sound like you get your opionions from Fox News Skittles Sep 2014 #88
CLUELESS? Aha TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #90
Well, you show up, insisting that everyone on DU jeff47 Sep 2014 #93
I haven't watched Fox News since Bush v. Gore. Seriously. TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #94
And I'm Santa Claus. (nt) jeff47 Sep 2014 #104
And democrats are not a monolithic group TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #107
aw don't worry, I am done with you Skittles Sep 2014 #95
Good question Andy823 Sep 2014 #61
It's not just H-1B Visa program is bad. Study H-2B Visa program abuse too! cascadiance Sep 2014 #74
Because it's temporary. jeff47 Sep 2014 #92
Already happened abelenkpe Sep 2014 #32
+1 warrant46 Sep 2014 #45
If it's not their ox, they don't care who's gored. Face it. TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #55
Welcome to globalisation. Spider Jerusalem Sep 2014 #57
Very true. TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #63
Globalisation means a tendency towards wage convergence across economies, actually Spider Jerusalem Sep 2014 #65
But we don't have to let them in. TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #67
American prosperity is partly built on exploiting the resources and labour of developing countries. Spider Jerusalem Sep 2014 #69
That doesn't mean we can't change it. TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #73
It means lower wages for the employers & employees. grahamhgreen Sep 2014 #72
NOT CEOS!!! We should ask them WTF NOT? cascadiance Sep 2014 #75
My bad. What I meant was they get to pay lower wages! grahamhgreen Sep 2014 #76
Your presence on a US Democratic forum is therefore puzzling brentspeak Sep 2014 #98
See, here's the thing Spider Jerusalem Sep 2014 #113
"...a love for the United States and a desire for its citizenry to prosper." True but not limited to pampango Sep 2014 #138
Just like white male privilege The2ndWheel Sep 2014 #100
Wow. TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #112
Just comparing the situations The2ndWheel Sep 2014 #117
If you mean we shouldn't be throwing our weight around the world TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #123
No, just saying it's happening The2ndWheel Sep 2014 #131
It doesn't HAVE to happen TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #132
Living wages for the working class is a myth WestCoastLib Sep 2014 #159
Too late, I diversified my work experience. Rex Sep 2014 #70
He knows better.... doesn't he???? grahamhgreen Sep 2014 #71
Yeah but the Democrats... sendero Sep 2014 #85
Fuck this shit. Goddam corporatist. kath Sep 2014 #87
You know, I bet H1B executives would be far cheaper than US-born executives jeff47 Sep 2014 #89
Naw BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #91
That's capitalism on a global scale for you YoungDemCA Sep 2014 #97
"They took our jobs!" is funny, remember? Everybody said we shouldn't whine, remember? What changed? Romulox Sep 2014 #101
Ideals and reality don't always mix The2ndWheel Sep 2014 #102
The "ideal" is every man for himself. The reality is that this maxim applies to IT workers Romulox Sep 2014 #103
Until we have worldwide free movements of people TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #130
Of course we have a "right" to do so. I just don't see any evidence that we will. Romulox Sep 2014 #150
Special Snowflakes 4Q2u2 Sep 2014 #151
Actually, I have a lot to say about the trades getting hammered TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #165
Because they do not see from their Ivory Towers 4Q2u2 Sep 2014 #167
We have a Russian group of laborers here TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #168
What makes you think IT workers are globalization cheerleaders brentspeak Sep 2014 #162
They don't have to be cheerleaders, just part of the same system as the rest of us. Romulox Sep 2014 #164
IT Workers Are The Canary In the Coal Mine For the Promises Made to Americans TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #166
IT jobs are no more significant than were auto jobs, a generation ago. Romulox Sep 2014 #171
I didn't sell out anyone TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #173
So its really the Oligarchs that hate us for our freedoms! Okay I see now. misterhighwasted Sep 2014 #105
Yes, and large numbers of spouses get the plum jobs at gov/t agencies like NASA, NIH, AG, NSF, CDC. kelliekat44 Sep 2014 #109
So is it better to just ship the jobs Progressive dog Sep 2014 #111
K&R Paka Sep 2014 #115
The U.S. has become the Third World country that vkkv Sep 2014 #128
Shameful. All immigrants should be on equal footing. All should have the same rights. JDPriestly Sep 2014 #129
Hmmm... A flood of cheap labor never seemed to be an issue before... LostInAnomie Sep 2014 #161
Well said. nt Romulox Sep 2014 #172
Engineers are next? Engineers are now. Engineers are "tech workers". n/t hughee99 Sep 2014 #178
I'm going to blame the republicans for this. I'm still working out the details on that, though. n/t hughee99 Sep 2014 #174
Just wait 'til employers start arranging marriages between workers for H-1B reasons. hughee99 Sep 2014 #175

merrily

(45,251 posts)
2. Hillary has opined on a number of occasions that the poor tech employers just cannot find
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 12:29 PM
Sep 2014

enough qualified workers in the US population of about 350 million souls.

Draw your own conclusions.

Me, I have no doubt that employers tell her that there are not enough qualified USians, but I don't believe she is sufficiently uninformed or gullible to believe them.

freebrew

(1,917 posts)
26. Tech employers(poor souls that they are) can't find qualified Americans..
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:42 PM
Sep 2014

willing to work 60 hrs a week for minimum wage. Most tech jobs now require at least a BS. Many require Masters.
The cost of education makes it somewhat unattractive to work for low-wage jobs. Loan rules and all, you see.
Students are stuck forever paying these loans. Foreign students, OTOH, get all sorts of tuition breaks, living expenses, etc. many paid by the host nation, or us.

Add to that fact that a degree isn't at all necessary to perform the work required and you get a lot of unemployed Americans, willing and capable, with no way to get a job.


LittleGirl

(8,287 posts)
58. you obviously know what you're talking about
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:49 PM
Sep 2014

I've seen it too.

I'm a bit on the fence about spouses getting to work. Some of those jobs pay slave wages and most of those visa holders have a family. I think it's great that spouses will be able to work (in my humble opinion).

I'm married to an immigrant so I know what it's been like for him.

freebrew

(1,917 posts)
99. I just know what I've experienced...
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 09:08 AM
Sep 2014

and what I see happen to others around me. I worked in manufacturing most of my working life.
I've had co-workers with visas, made friends with most. Had bosses with visas, they were decent bosses.
Some were forced to come here by the company as Canadian plants were closed to dis-band the union shop there.
Those workers were no less likely to be screwn by the company, their salaries were pretty good.
I think what bothers me with the visa argument: Most of the students I knew from out of country were here with either our tax $ or their country's, expecting those graduates to go back to improve their host nation. Most of them stayed here for the $$ or maybe got married. I don't fault that, but corps have used this to undermine the salary structure based upon the costs of the training/education required to get the job.

I think what I just wrote might be a little disjointed, it's early and I'm still half sleeping. Sorry.




An aside...
The last corp. I worked for gave raises by % of your wage or salary. So, the company grew less and less profitable as it was paying its local managers 6 figures, the head guys $Ms and the folks doing the work peanuts.

What amazes me: what incoherent behavior is being taught in our business schools that explains firing the workers(blue and white collar) doing everything they can to do a good job and keeping the management team that screwed things up in the first place?

warrant46

(2,205 posts)
30. Her class of people hates union workers
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:44 PM
Sep 2014

like Operating Engineers who make $75.00 or so an hour operating cranes etc. If they could get Mexicans at $12.00 an hour just think of the profits they could pocket

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
77. Hillary should also be cognizant that earnings by H-1B workers often LEAVE OUR ECONOMY!
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 03:59 PM
Sep 2014

If you want a stimulus of more people working to have more people spending money WITHIN our economy WITHIN our country, then hiring more people that will send their wages overseas is NOT the way to do that!

Now maybe that is the rationale that Obama is using for this sort of "reform" that perhaps H-1B workers will be more apt to bring their families to live over here in the U.S. instead and spend the money domestically, if both spouses are working here instead of having the family live at home and stockpiling a big portion of their wages there in savings to spend later when their H-1B contract runs out.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
79. from what she said, stimulus was not in the forefront of her reasoning.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 04:05 PM
Sep 2014

Rather, it was about helping out these poor employers who (according to her) had been telling her that they just could not find qualified people to hire.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
80. Oh, I forgot, she just PRETENDS she wants to help the economy recover...
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 04:46 PM
Sep 2014

... but that is lower priority than helping her "friends" (that aren't us, even if she's trying to make us think that we are)

antigop

(12,778 posts)
155. Hillary on outsourcing and visas
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 09:30 PM
Sep 2014
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/07/AR2007090702780.html

They say she opposes legislative measures -- such as trade barriers -- to slow the loss of American jobs if they would restrain free trade. And they say she has supported the expansion of the temporary-worker visas because U.S. technology companies have repeatedly told her the visas are needed to maintain a ready workforce.

At the same time, they say, she has worked hard to secure money to assist workers who have lost jobs to outsourcing and wants to retrain the American workforce to compete better in the global marketplace.




Still waiting to hear from Hillary exactly WHAT an IT worker or engineer is supposed to train for after his/her job is replaced by a visaholder.
 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
33. I wonder if this will get as many rec's as the one last week about his highness's "I'd join a union"
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:48 PM
Sep 2014

proclamation.

so discouraging.

pa28

(6,145 posts)
62. Yeah but he gave such a pretty Labor Day speech!
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 03:01 PM
Sep 2014

You have to watch what he does because when he's talking to liberal or labor it's often the opposite of what he says.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
141. Be reasonable. Don't you know that the whole idea is to equalize salaries across the globe?
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 12:59 PM
Sep 2014

Those poor Corporations that now have to go to China and elsewhere where they don't have to abide by our labor laws, while still taking advantage of our tax breaks btw, to get cheap labor, wouldn't have to do that if WE could just provide them with the same cheap labor right here??

Equal rights to the same slave labor pay! What could be more Democratic? And looking at the pay rate of Americans as compared to several decades ago, it looks like the plan is working.

Global standards for labor makes the whole world a stage for the Corporate thugs who are hoarding more and more money as they pay less and less to the workers who made them rich.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
147. Equalizing salaries across the globe (more equality) would be a good thing. Lowering them would not.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 02:29 PM
Sep 2014

I don't think there are many liberals who support LESS equality in global salaries. (That sounds like a republican/conservative goal.) We want our standard of living to improve even if poorer countries improve faster and eventually catch up with us.

Most of the income gains in the past 25 years have gone to the bottom 70% and the top 5% on the global income scale. Those who have suffered have been the bottom 5% and the 80-90 percentile in income.

There should be a way to reign in the top 5% with their exponential increase in income and redistribute it to the bottom 5% and the 80-90% people. (The folks in the 10%-70% range have had even greater percentage increases in their income than the top 5% has had.) We should be able to do this without jeopardizing the progress made by the lowest 2/3 of the world's population.

The key to help the American middle class while those of poorer countries rise. It can be done as evidenced by many progressive countries with progressive taxes, good safety net, strong unions and effective regulation. These countries have much stronger middle classes than we do. It takes smart legislation on taxes, union, regulation and the safety net. Without such legislation (and we are nowhere near passing anything of the sort), our middle class will continue to suffer.



sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
149. Of course raising the pay rates and equalizing them globally would be the right thing to do.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 03:03 PM
Sep 2014

I was being facetious. Should have added a sarcasm tag.

What I am saying is that they are doing the opposite, trying to lower the wages of workers in first world nations so that Corporations will have a cheap labor force even in first world nations. When people are out of a job they are more likely to accept low wages rather than earn nothing at all.

Great charts btw, thank you for your comment. I completely agree.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
4. Maybe its time
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 12:35 PM
Sep 2014

For americans to leave the country like many of our ancestors left theirs. Clearly this country wasn't the great place my great grandparents thought it was.

 

ballyhoo

(2,060 posts)
29. It is pretty much a second-world power with nukes. It actually
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:43 PM
Sep 2014

was a great place for our great grandparents. But when the Reagans, the Bushes, and the Obamas came along it was all over but the shouting. Wait until the people get their 2016 premiums for ACA. The understanding for the hangers-on will come full tilt at that time. Americans have begun to flee the US now. But one better know someone wherever one plans on going. There are few fertile fields anymore.

LittleGirl

(8,287 posts)
59. We will be leaving the country before long
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:51 PM
Sep 2014

Waiting on a contract to live overseas and we're counting the hours.

You can't have job security if there isn't any of that going around.

meaculpa2011

(918 posts)
114. My grandparents left their country...
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 10:56 AM
Sep 2014

to find a better life. They did, and it meant a better life for their children and grandchildren.

It's time for me to honor their memory and do the same for my children and grandchildren.

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
5. RARELY on EARTH in any country is there a 2 STEM household ESPECIALLY in the same field...
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 12:40 PM
Sep 2014

... so this is a little HOF IMHO...

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
8. But there likely will be with this...
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 12:58 PM
Sep 2014

... especially when you consider that places like India actually pay for bachelor's degrees for their citizens, unlike American citizens. Now talking to Indians myself, I know that U.S. institutions for degrees are still held in higher regard, but if you think about what will start to happen, is that you'll get many couples who have both had free college bachelors degrees in India, and many of them come over here for graduate degrees to be better positioned for H-1B visas, and I'll need to check on this, but I think there are provisions for support for these degrees in this program too. Now, both husband and wife will come here and spend their college money on graduate degrees to be set up for H-1B visa jobs, especially with this newer provision. They spend all of their college money just on the graduate degree here locally, and American college graduates are heavy in debt with just bachelor's degrees that they had to pay for, and now more of them without jobs, and don't have money to spend on graduate degrees here themselves.

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
10. Got anything empirical? I work in a STEM field... rarely do the spouces have same STEM occupation
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:01 PM
Sep 2014

... in the same field or even around it.

STEM is already world wide rare

TBF

(32,056 posts)
18. Show us the numbers -
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:11 PM
Sep 2014

I live here in Houston and the STEM folks are all over. Being from an artsy family my kids actually have some advantage in the arts because that is not the norm here. We have NASA, medical center, amazing engineers - these folks are all STEM and their kids are acing the math & science STAAR tests (whether their families are Indian, Asian or originally European - we have a lot of diversity here as well).

It may not be the same in Peoria but I know what I'm seeing in this city.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
22. If you went to an engineering school you must have been aware that there were WOMEN there.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:20 PM
Sep 2014

Last edited Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:36 PM - Edit history (2)

And they usually married other engineers.

Maybe you went a long time ago. But at MIT, for example, women are almost half of the undergraduates now.

http://wiki.mitadmissions.org/Women_at_MIT

Women make up nearly half of MIT's undergraduate student body and a growing number of its faculty and leaders, including MIT's former President, Susan Hockfield. In 2009-2010, there were 1,916 undergraduate women and 1,916 graduate women studying at MIT, and 213 female faculty.

SNIP

In the past 30 years, as society finally began to see that math, science and engineering weren't "just for boys" anymore, MIT has enrolled a skyrocketing number of women students. Gifted young women with a passion for technical subjects have found in MIT an extremely collaborative and supportive educational environment - and they have made it even stronger and more dynamic.

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
46. My husband and I are both in the same field
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:05 PM
Sep 2014

Many of our coworkers and friends share the same occupation as their spouse having met in school or at work.

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
148. People, your individual experiences...howbeit beautiful are not empirical... out of 3.5 billion work
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 02:59 PM
Sep 2014

...working age adults lets not pick out the exceptions and make them the rule... it's a logical fallacy

Anyone got any numbers on double STEM households?

My understanding is it's very rare...

regards

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
152. Your "understanding" has no data at this point
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 04:48 PM
Sep 2014

Sheesh. I was born in the morning, but it wasn't this morning.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
179. There I go again
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 05:44 PM
Sep 2014

Doing your fricken' research.

Okay, let me make the connection for you. You made a completely unsubstantiated claim, "rarely do the spouces (sic.) have same STEM occupation". When others offered personal evidence refuting it, you hypocritically demanded empirical proof.

I offered an article which bolstered the anecdotal evidence ("A new working paper by an international team of economists finds that better educated people are increasingly more likely to marry other better-educated people while those with less formal schooling are more likely to choose a less well-educated partner.&quot

This means that those with degrees, including STEM degrees, tend to pair with persons of similar levels of education (STEM and non-STEM). By reducing the number of non-degreed persons from the pool of potential mates, the chance of people pairing with a STEM degreed person increases. It's called assortatative mating.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2385152

So here is what you need to do. If you still think that STEM folks behave like the poles of magnets and repel each other, then you should find an article directly showing it, an article that implies it, or perhaps conduct your own research.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
19. You couldn't be more wrong. Who do you think most women in STEM fields marry?
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:12 PM
Sep 2014

The men they go to school or work with.

My daughter and her husband were in the same STEM major at the same engineering school. All their friends consist of couples who are both in engineering.

Response to brentspeak (Original post)

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
11. This is about driving wages into the ground
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:04 PM
Sep 2014

My industry was decimated by low wage workers from Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia. Those countries trained workers in special effects for free or low cost (instead of the very expensive training most people get here) as a way to woo producers with cheap, union-free labor. And producers never met a way to screw crew they didn't love. Now they have imported those workers and have them living on "campuses" where they work 16-18 hours a day making $20 or less an hour for jobs that were sometimes $200 and hour before.

Nobody here is a racist, so please don't stoop that low.

 

Sopkoviak

(357 posts)
17. My brother-in-law had a dry wall hanging business
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:11 PM
Sep 2014

That had 15 to 20 crews working until the industry was inundated by low paid immigrants from low wage countries and he had to close up shop.

What's your point?

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
25. Um...
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:35 PM
Sep 2014

So you believe employers should be able to import workers who are willing to make far less than an American worker?

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
48. Cheap Labor Is Cheap Labor
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:09 PM
Sep 2014

I have a husband in STEM who is affected by these visas, and my working class family (uncles, cousins) has been destroyed by cheap immigrant labor - roofers, masonry, carpentry, you name it. People around here don't seem to understand that Americans actually lived off of those paychecks, and they didn't have to live 10 people to a two-room apartment to do it. Sure, they didn't make much money, but it was a living back then. My brothers did roofing work for a neighbor to put themselves through college (first generation college graduates.) My dad did masonry and painting as a "side" job.

With the oilfield downturn in the eighties, I had family that moved across the country and started their own landscaping business. They did well enough to support their kids, too. It was hard work, but they did it. Now, they can't find work doing that, either.

It's funny how everyone around here supports driving down the wages of the working class, but scream about STEM workers.

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
13. Companies have used H1B visas as form a displacement, that's not in dispute I don't think this is...
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:06 PM
Sep 2014

...about hating immigrants but I don't see how a 1 or 2% lift in H1Bs is going to create the HOF situation the OP is describing

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
21. It's going to be a far higher lift than what you are predicting, because most of
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:17 PM
Sep 2014

the STEM immigrants have spouses who are STEM -- according to the arguments of the people who have been pushing for this. They claim that these additional STEM workers are needed, but they're not -- except to lower salaries for everyone.

ChromeFoundry

(3,270 posts)
14. How about we take away your computer and give it to some random person on the street.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:08 PM
Sep 2014

You will continue to pay for the computer.
They will now post under your account here on DU.
...Because they don't complain as much as you.
...And someone told us that you are not smart enough to keep posting here on DU.

Oh, and why are you stating that this is unfair? Are you racist?


Not much different, is it?

Generic Other

(28,979 posts)
15. He hates bosses exploiting workers not immigrants
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:08 PM
Sep 2014

Seriously, how dare American workers feel some sense of entitlement to jobs in our own country?

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
16. We just don't want an uneven playing field and legalized INDENTURED SERVITUDE!
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:09 PM
Sep 2014

I am making less money in tech job contracts or permanent jobs than I did 20 years ago, primarily due to the movement towards contracting jobs like this. And I'm not "less qualified".

What I would rather see is an accelerated process for REAL immigration for those who want to work here, and become CITIZENS who can VOTE, and BECOME PART OF UNIONS! The tech sector early on didn't need union representation, and never really got them started through the years of the dotcom boom before it busted on the laddering scams, etc. Now, it has no chance of starting unions BY DESIGN by so much H-1B Visa workers that were not supposed to be here as "cheaper labor", but to fill in spots that U.S. workers aren't qualified for. But in fact it IS to get cheaper labor for equivalent experience as data through the years shows, when loopholes are being used to not offer equivalent salaries to those in the programs.

We'd be much better off pushing for global trade unions and labor rights, etc. to keep the 'bottom' from being present that these companies race to. There would be a lot less workers willing to move here when if their salaries and cost of living overseas wasn't one tenth of what it is here like it is in places like India. And there wouldn't be as much value in companies moving shop over there too then. We should focus on renegotiating these so-called "free trade" treaties, helping real immigration instead of forcing those wanting citizenship to wait 10 years for that to happen in many cases.

Don't make this a "brown people" thing. This applies to all immigrants coming here. There are many white eastern europeans here that I have as much a problem with hiring as those from places with "brown people".

And if you think that H-1B workers aren't abused, or won't be abused, also look at how H-2B workers (not tech but hired as guest workers too) were treated when they were brought over to help clean up the hurricane Katrina mess. Then you'd see why these exploitive programs that only benefit the 1% in reality should be shut down or minimized for the original priorities that provided the rationale for their creation.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
20. Entitled? It's bad enough that we're pushing our young people into STEM fields on the basis
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:15 PM
Sep 2014

of (non-existent) employee shortages. And now we are supposed to reduce the number of jobs available when they graduate?

STEM workers from other countries are needed to help develop their own countries. They don't need to be brought here so that employers can reduce wages on everyone.

 

Sopkoviak

(357 posts)
23. So are you saying that
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:35 PM
Sep 2014

Housekeepers, yard and pool, sheetrock hanger, tile layer and so on and so forth workers from other countries are needed to help develop their own countries.

What makes Stem and IT workers so sacrosanct?

Or is it all about whose ox is being gored?

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
38. These "top" STEM workers can usually find jobs in their own countries, which need
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:54 PM
Sep 2014

these skilled workers for exactly the same reason Obama claims we do -- to help grow their economies.

Which will benefit the low skilled workers in the long run.

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
37. US tech workers have already had their wages suppressed for years illegally
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:53 PM
Sep 2014

see: http://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/

This is just more effort by the government to help large corporations continue to suppress worker wages. It has nothing to do with the color of one's skin.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
24. I work for a software company and we have so many openings for Engineers it's not funny.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:35 PM
Sep 2014

Unfortunately the industry I work in is severely lacking in good engineers we have plenty of applicants but none of them actually qualify for the positions they are applying for or would not be a cultural fit for the company. The company has taken the position that they will not be importing any H-1B visa engineers and has put a lot of effort on recruiting kids in college to help direct them into the engineering careers we need.

Demobrat

(8,976 posts)
35. What does this mean?
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:49 PM
Sep 2014

"would not be a cultural fit for the company."? Where I live (the SF Bay Area) it's code for "you're too old". What does it mean where you are?

dilby

(2,273 posts)
40. Age is not the issue for my company we have all ages. Culturaly we are very progressive and green.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:55 PM
Sep 2014

If you are a redneck from the south you probably would not be a fit, if you are someone who leans left and and a little quirky then you will be just fine.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
50. So your company runs on the good kind of stereotype and bias
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:28 PM
Sep 2014

Not the bad kind.

"Cultural fit" aren't even clever code words.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
53. Most companies have a culture and they prefer to hire those who fit the company culture.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:35 PM
Sep 2014

People who have to work closely together are better suited to work with like minded people. Apple has a culture, Google has a culture, Disney has a culture, Turner has a culture and if you talked to anyone from those companies they would be very open about their cultures and that they look for like minded people in their hiring process.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
82. All companies have them.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 05:34 PM
Sep 2014

My company promotes diversity so we have quite a few gay employees and a lot of female engineers. We would not want to hire people who are homophobes or those that promote the good ole boy atmosphere that is seen at other tech companies.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
156. So a female gay engineer from the south would or would not be a good fit?
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:01 PM
Sep 2014

Just curious. I'm not looking right now, because I currently have a job, but I am from the south. I'm no redneck. I'm about as liberal as they come. Would that fit the culture or would simply being from the south mean no?

dilby

(2,273 posts)
169. We have southern engineers.
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 10:56 AM
Sep 2014

I probably should not have said southern redneck and just said redneck. And we have gay female engineers as well. My company offered domestic partner benefits from the start 5 years ago, which was a benefit to both gay and straight employees because it meant you did not have to get married to make sure the person you loved was covered under your health benefits.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
143. The culture at my local Chick Fil A
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 02:01 PM
Sep 2014

Very neat and clean and polite (Is that a culture?) - adults including grannies, grandpas, teens, blacks, whites, non-white hispanics, asians, including a couple of women with head scarves. (We have a number of Muslims in my community, which is very diverse.)

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
137. It's discrimination, like it or not!
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 12:39 PM
Sep 2014

It's legal, but your company is discriminating against people who are "different." It is not discriminating based on ability or training or job readiness but on who the people are. Similarly another company might claim its company culture requires it to hire people who live in conventional families -- no gay or lesbian couples, no mixed race families, etc. Culture is another word for -- we don't like the way you live, therefore we won't hire you.

Admit what it is. That is a good starting point toward a tolerant workplace.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
142. Interesting because companies who hire bigots, homophobes, misogynists and abusers are regularly
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 12:59 PM
Sep 2014

condemned here. My company promotes a very diverse workplace but because of that we need people who support and appreciate diversity. I am pretty sure most of the people on this board would do just fine at my company, it's absolutely everyone right to be a bigot however it does not mean they have a right to work at any company. A culture that promotes diversity is very important and a culture where people all get along promotes a healthy office environment.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
144. Your commitment to diversity is reflected in the kind of people whom you refuse to hire?
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 02:06 PM
Sep 2014

I get that the opposite of discriminate is indiscriminate, and that everyone makes judgment calls about the character of an applicant during an interview, but "diversity" and "a culture where people all get along" are antonyms.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
145. Can you give me an example of a post in which a DUer condemned a company that hires
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 02:07 PM
Sep 2014

bigots, homophobes or misogynists? Abusers violate the law, but bigots, homophobes and misogynists do not as long as their biases are not company policy. The problem is not hiring someone who has a prejudice. The problem is incorporating the prejudice into company policy.

I seriously doubt whether you ask people their opinions about religion, homosexuality, gender preference or guns before you hire them. Surely you don't. You just pick who you like.

I think you are misstating your case most likely. I'm hoping that you mean that you hire people you like, not that you apply some sort of test on their opinions before you hire them.

I think you are conveying a meaning that you probably do not have. Am I wrong?

dilby

(2,273 posts)
146. You are correct we hire people who we get along with.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 02:21 PM
Sep 2014

We do not ask positions but most often positions come out during interviews, if someone speaks negatively against several female bosses that raises a red flag, does not mean they are not getting hired but it does mean we need to speak with their references and also former bosses to see if there is an issue with working with women. Most companies have very stringent interview processes were they weed out candidates that would not be a fit, we also check facebook and twitter posts for anything that could be considered problematic, if a candidate has a like on "I stand with Phil" or whatever that is not a problem but it does mean you check some of the other stuff to see if they have ever made racist or homophobic comments. The company I work for goes out of it's way to hire the brightest and yes sometimes there are very qualified candidates who don't get hired due to their history that comes up during the investigation period.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
182. But you don't discriminate based on traits with which a person is born like race, sexual preference,
Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:27 AM
Sep 2014

gender, and you don't discriminate based on religion. Almost all companies or firms hire people they like.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
96. My son is Southern and will probably be attending GA Tech.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 10:28 PM
Sep 2014

So, you're saying he wouldn't be able to get a job because he has a Southern accent?

That is discrimination.

Edited to add: And I really don't know too many "redneck" engineers, so it would have to boil down to the accent. How very "not liberal."

dilby

(2,273 posts)
120. The accent is not an issue.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:14 AM
Sep 2014

We have people from North Carolina, Florida, Georgia, Texas and Mississippi working here. What we don't have is people like the Robertsons who are quite offensive to many. We have religious people but they are not spreading their gospel, we have hunters but they are not bringing their dead animals in out of respect for the large group of vegetarian and vegan employees.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
125. Because Rednecks from the South are different than Southerners.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:25 AM
Sep 2014

Do you think the Robertsons represent everyone from the south? But everyone would say the Robertsons are Rednecks from the South.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
180. Just let it slide, dilby
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 05:57 PM
Sep 2014

I understood what you were saying. If I'm ever looking for a job, I'd throw my resume your way.

Many of the folks who post here are just nimrods engaged in willful ignorance. They love telling progressives they are tea baggers, telling advocates of equality that they are bigots, try to portray feminists and misogynists, and generally stir the shit stew.

It's a common character flaw that occurs throughout the political spectrum.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
157. Lol, unfortunately, I've met far too many "redneck engineers."
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:08 PM
Sep 2014

Handiwork similar to their work can be seen here:
http://failblog.cheezburger.com/thereifixedit
We call that redneck engineering where I live. It is just a funny running joke about some of their "repairs."

Just thought I would throw some humor into this depressing ass conversation. I'd hate to think just because I'm from the south that I wouldn't "fit" into a "diverse" company when I happen to also be female, liberal and gay (lesbian for those who prefer that word). Bless their hearts.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
160. I guess I was blinded by the
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 03:40 AM
Sep 2014

"would not be a cultural fit for the company" excerpt of your post. Now that I have reread it, my post doesn't make much sense.

However, I do feel that basing hiring decisions on cultural fits is a very poor policy and that your company will lose out by using it. I understand that it would seem like a dream environment to only have to work with those that you get along with and share certain beliefs but you will also miss out on potentially stimulating and divergent ideas by limiting your viewpoints.

Plus, I still view privacy as one of the most important aspects of our Constitution and your policy seems to not only require people to divulge their political viewpoints but to also be prejudiced against those from certain regions.

Not only that, but you are missing the opportunity to share what you know with those whose beliefs you don;t share. Perhaps you can change some minds. I know I have done so at work.

Still, I do apologize for not thoroughly reading your post before replying.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
170. I understand peoples problem with the culture thing.
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 11:19 AM
Sep 2014

I started at my company when it was a small startup, a lot of the first hires were friends or friends of friends. There was just a handful of people who worked in really tight quarters for long hours. Everyone got along, did things outside of work together and it was more of a family atmosphere. Since I started this went from a small company to a global company and one thing the founders wanted to retain was the same feel the company had when it was a tiny startup. This is where the culture was first formed and it's something retained today. I know my UK counterparts all really well and I got along with them from the moment I met them when I had to work on a long project in the London. I had the same opportunity with my Hong Kong counterparts and it was the same. I have never worked in a company where everyone got along, no one was stabbing someone in the back and most importantly you did not feel someone did not belong there based on their skill set. The culture was very organic and natural in the beginning based on friends who were like minded working together and became a blueprint that was used for new hires.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
181. Thanks for clarifying what you meant.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 04:19 AM
Sep 2014

It really does sound like a wonderful place to work. At the same time, none of us would want to be barred from employment based upon our 'green' or 'liberal' culture.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
118. Funny, that's what some guys think about women in STEM
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:05 AM
Sep 2014

And blacks.

And any other person of color.

They don't "fit in."

Glad to see that most employers in Houston don't think the way you think. We have a very diverse STEM workforce here and are proud of it.

Although I'm not in STEM, I'm married to a programmer, and get that geeks tend to have their own culture and tend to dress like slobs , but personal religious beliefs and political beliefs tend not to invade that culture around here. The African American guy, the Russian woman, the Mexican American guy, the Texas redneck, and the cajun guy all seem to work great together. The office culture is different from their home culture.

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
41. Where is your company?
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:56 PM
Sep 2014

I know lots of experienced engineers who have worked places like Apple and Google and Disney. They aren't kids right out of school though.

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
134. All companies have litmus tests. Even those in government positions like the DMV and police.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 12:12 PM
Sep 2014

Dilby was just being honest and now s/he is getting excoriated for it, but fact remains, this isn't as uncommon as you'd like to believe.

The son of one of my husband's colleagues owns a successful cigar-bar in Arkansas. He refuses to hire women to work for him. He told hubby that women bring too much drama to the workplace. Those are his exact words. Oh, and he's a diehard Republican, too. He must believe, like U.S. Rep Ed Royce believes, that my husband is a Republican because of the conservative way he dresses for work (suits and ties).

I don't agree with these prejudiced hiring policies, but it is a fact of life in the United States, and the RW don't have any qualms not hiring women, minorities, or any other people who aren't a "culteral fit", although now they have to hide it, simply telling applicants that they're "not qualified".

dilby

(2,273 posts)
139. What that guy is doing is illegal, women are a protected class.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 12:46 PM
Sep 2014

There is a big difference between discrimination against protected classes and hiring practices that encourage diversity and like minded people.

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
140. I know. But it's pretty hard to prove that kind of discrimination in a court of law.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 12:52 PM
Sep 2014

Businesses in this country are always given a more superior position than workers/employees. And since Affirmative Action has been banned in California (along with five other States), I'll be expecting to see more minorities unemployed in the foreseeable future.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
124. Actually more like a progressive litmus test.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:23 AM
Sep 2014

If you have problems with a female boss, this is not the place for you. If you have problems with working with GLBT then this is not the place for you. If you have problems with the number of women who work in engineering than this is not the place for you. If you have a problem with a company that cares about all their employees dietary needs and you regularly make fun of vegans, vegetarians and pescatarians than this not the place for you. If you don't like Democrats like Senator Wyden who has met with us several times then this is not the place for you.

My company regularly takes political positions on GLBT issues and environmental issues especially those that affect Global warming. It would not be beneficial for us to have employees who disagree with those positions, yes we probably have those who disagree but they don't share their positions because it really goes against the companies core values.

meaculpa2011

(918 posts)
133. You can dress it up, wrap it and put a pretty pink bow on it...
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 12:02 PM
Sep 2014

but it's still bias based on thought.

If your posting was an employment ad you would be flagged by EEO in half a second.

"_____________'s" need not apply is repugnant regardless of who's doing it.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
135. Since misogynists and homophobes are not protected classes I think we are safe.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 12:15 PM
Sep 2014

But yeah we don't put that in the job description, but when you have cultural fits you really don't need to. You can get a feel for people during the interview process which takes a long, long time. Generally it's 2 phone interviews then an all day in person interview.

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
28. Why is H1 visa bad but illegal imigration good?
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:43 PM
Sep 2014

Nobody complains about undoccumented imigrants bringing wages down, but suddenly when they are the spouse of an H1 visa its bad?

If they are in this county legally I dont have a problen with them getting a job to support their family.

warrant46

(2,205 posts)
34. Illegal imigrants milk cows and clean toilets
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:48 PM
Sep 2014

H1B visa holders work for $8.00 an hour in a more skilled area

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
49. Illegal immigrants do a lot more than that
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:17 PM
Sep 2014

Ask anyone who grew up around the construction industry - painters, masonry workers, roofers, tilers, carpenters, sheet rockers, road workers, heavy construction workers, heavy equipment operators.

The fishing industry.

Hotel workers.

Laundry facilities.

Hair and nail salons.

House maids and nannies.

Landscaping crews.

And the list goes on and on.

And getting longer - the trucking industry is moving to that list.

Just about any working class job that doesn't require a good working knowledge of English is suffering from wage suppression, if you can get the job at all.

warrant46

(2,205 posts)
163. NICE LIST
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 07:42 AM
Sep 2014

And the Repuke voters around where I live (Who are mostly on SSI or SSDI or just plain old social security) Decry the laziness of "Negroes" and other whites who sit around and collect welfare and don't want to work

Note these Illegals milk cows on mega farms (5000 COWS OR MORE) for $6.00 an Hour CASH

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
36. I don't think anyone says illegal immigration is good.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:51 PM
Sep 2014

I think what people here say is that the immigration system is so broken that we cannot find fault with the current undocumented individuals in this country. That is at least how I feel. I still don't think I have ever seen anyone here or in the democratic party claim that illegal immigration is good. Seeing as that was the basis for your point, I find the argument to fall short from the start.

"Why is H1 visa bad but illegal immigration good?"

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
54. Unbridled support for illegal immigration and they don't think it is a good?
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:38 PM
Sep 2014

Look, there's no way I could look one person in the face who is here illegally and say "You gotta' leave." In fact, I'm for granting them a path to citizenship....AFTER we get illegal immigration under control.

And the first step on the way is harsh penalties for employers!

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
56. "Unbridled support for illegal immigration and they don't think it is a good?"
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:44 PM
Sep 2014

I have read your post multiple times now and still don't get the point being made.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
60. How many people here claim
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:58 PM
Sep 2014

How many people here claim , "Oh, I'm not for illegal immigration!" while at the same time putting down the welcome mat?

Believe me, many people here think illegal immigration "is" a good thing. If you can't have a discussion about the negative effects of illegal immigration without being called a "racist" here by many people, you have to believe that they support illegal immigration. I've read here for years, and watched folks get chewed up and spit out for that.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
66. Really?
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 03:12 PM
Sep 2014

Just because no one says "illegal immigration is a good thing" doesn't mean they don't support it. Just the fact that it is impossible to have an honest discussion on the subject tells me many support it. I mean who wants to be called "racist," "nativist," "selfish," "right wing" and on and on. I guess I don't care because I've read here for years, and if I have to go back to "read only" it's no skin off my nose. Not being emotionally invested here, I don't care what people think.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
90. CLUELESS? Aha
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 10:12 PM
Sep 2014

Just call me a racist and be done with it.

These jobs have all suffered from serious wage suppression in many parts of the country:

painters, sheetrock workers, bricklayers, carpenters, hair stylists and manicurists, yard and garden workers, dock workers and fishermen, dry cleaners, hotel workers, maids, nannies, and on and on. You know, the jobs that no one wants to do now that wages have been suppressed so much? Folks used to actually DO those jobs.

I don't blame anyone for coming here for a better life, and I certainly couldn't send them home, but let's not pretend that blue collar workers haven't been affected by illegal immigration while at the same time decrying professional workers on H1-B visas.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
93. Well, you show up, insisting that everyone on DU
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 10:20 PM
Sep 2014

loves illegal immigration. And when pressed for proof, you attack. And you've got a very low post count.

In other words, it's abundantly clear you're being a troll quoting the Fox News idea of what liberals think.

And, btw, you're utterly clueless about H1B visas and the restrictions around them that make them far worse for workers.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
94. I haven't watched Fox News since Bush v. Gore. Seriously.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 10:24 PM
Sep 2014

My main television viewing is CNN. I used to watch MSNBC, but I watch it less and less.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
107. And democrats are not a monolithic group
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 10:25 AM
Sep 2014

Some of us have actually been quite affected by immigration, legal and illegal.

My husband is a 50 year old programmer who has never been out of work. He's good. Very good. He survived the last round of cuts, but he sees the writing on the wall. This next influx of H1-B visa workers is going to hit the native workers in this industry and it's going to hurt.

Andy823

(11,495 posts)
61. Good question
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 03:01 PM
Sep 2014

You should start a new thread on this.

As has been posted below illegal immigrants work in all kinds of fields that help keep wages down for the average worker. Those who come here on work visa's have done so through the proper channels. I don't think it's right for employers to abuse this program by claiming they can not find people to do the jobs when many of the are simply trying to keep wages down. I think the "employers" need to have solid proof that they can find no help before they bring in workers they know will take less pay.

The same should go with any employer who is hiring workers who will work for less, usually illegals, when they never really look or local help. Way to many employers, no matter what kind of jobs the offer, are abusing the immigration laws and have been for years. We need a FAIR system that does not discriminate no matter what the jobs are. Instead of trying to keep wages down, we should be trying to do more to "raise"wages in other countries.

I agree with you, if they are legally in this country I have no problem with them working. We need to come up with a real immigration plan to get those who are here to support their families legalized into the system. I know there is a need workers in many fields, but the employer needs to obey all the laws wither it be hiring illegal workers, or apply to bring in H1 visa workers.

The employers are the problem and as long as they can get away with breaking the laws, or with lying about being able to fill jobs without visa workers nothing will get done. The rich will get richer, and the poor will get poorer, and that's no the way it should be. We need "real" immigration reform and we need it now.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
74. It's not just H-1B Visa program is bad. Study H-2B Visa program abuse too!
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 03:47 PM
Sep 2014

Both of these "guest worker" programs are there to allow the 1% employers to have "legal" means of exploiting indentured servant labor, and not have to rely on the government stop enforcing laws being broken by ILLEGAL EMPLOYERS that was started by Ronald Reagan's administration after amnesty was passed.

The difference is, is that for most lower wage jobs, it is easier for the employer to exploit and really abuse undocumented workers who are more apt to let them get away with such abuse than for workers with high tech backgrounds who work at H-1B jobs here. The tech industry wouldn't be able to get away with hiring people illegally without getting exposed and called to task for it and therefore they needed a program that they could bend the rules to get the same sort of "slave labor" that they could abuse as illegals.

After Katrina, they needed a lot of workers to help rebuild Louisiana, and in that case relied on the H-2B program which is similar to H-1B but hires average workers that might come in illegally otherwise. Now, if you look at the older news reports and how those brought in from other countries and the kind of abuse they put these people under (holding their passports hostage, etc.), you'll see how these sorts of "guest worker" programs should be SHUT DOWN or far better regulated. With Katrina they could have and SHOULD have hired residents of that area to do this work when they really needed it to get a living and housing again.

http://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnewsroom/immigration/b/outsidenews/archive/2013/06/28/multiple-trafficking-rico-civil-rights-violations-lawsuits-filed-on-behalf-of-h-2b-visa-workers.aspx

This isn't just about us STEM employees feeling like we are "special" and shouldn't be subject to H-1B competition. This sort of guest worker program is a threat to all American jobs and industries if we let it get institutionalized here and will take us further down the path of an oligarchy with no middle class.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
92. Because it's temporary.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 10:17 PM
Sep 2014

H1B visas are temporary. The worker has to leave the country when they expire. So they aren't immigrants.

Second, the H1B visa gives enormous power to the company - if you upset your boss, you're thrown out of the country. You also can't seek out a new job with another employer - the current employer would have to agree to transfer your visa, and why would the new employer hire you when your time limit is closer than a new H1B visa.

If the people on H1B visas were instead immigrating on a permanent basis, it would have a much smaller effect on wages.

If they are in this county legally I dont have a problen with them getting a job to support their family.

You got that backwards. You have to have the job first, then you can get an H1B visa. No employer, no visa.

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
32. Already happened
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:46 PM
Sep 2014

But not because of visas, instead because of offshoring. There used to be many VFX studios in LA, and thousands of VFX workers but that job has been off shored to countries that like Canada, New Zealand and the UK where the government subsidizes the industry. There were plenty of experienced educated workers but they've mostly all left the country to chase work opportunities. But hey, let's offer more visas so we can suppress worker wages even more. I mean twenty years of illegal wage suppression clearly wasn't enough. See: http://variety.com/2014/biz/news/disney-dreamworks-aninmation-lawsuit-1201300974/
and http://cinesourcemagazine.com/index.php?/site/comments/pixar_ilm_and_dreamworks_stung_by_wage_fixing_scandal/#.VA88uUvi6g8

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
55. If it's not their ox, they don't care who's gored. Face it.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:41 PM
Sep 2014

When it comes to immigration, it "feels" better to support poor immigrants instead of somewhat less poor Americans. Anything less is "racist" or lacking in "empathy."

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
57. Welcome to globalisation.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:48 PM
Sep 2014

Which is a good thing for the 95% of the people in the world who aren't Americans, honestly. The USA has over the past century enjoyed the benefits of a grotesquely disproportionate share of global GDP:



See that? From a postwar high of 35% of global GDP, to around 30% in 1980 and 25% in 1990 down to around 22% at present. That curve is only going to keep going down because of the economic rise of China and India. As it well should; I can't think of any good reason why a country with 5% of the global population should take in 25-30% of the total wealth produced.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
63. Very true.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 03:03 PM
Sep 2014

Very true. However, many aren't look for wealth...just a job to feed and clothe their families. (And, yes, I do know what you mean by "wealth." )

But does globalization really mean that all the construction jobs go to illegal immigrants and the STEM jobs go to immigrants, too?

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
65. Globalisation means a tendency towards wage convergence across economies, actually
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 03:11 PM
Sep 2014

that wages are still so low in Mexico and Colombia and so on, and in India and China, is the reason workers from those countries are coming to the USA. They get paid more than they would at home even if it's less than an American would make.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
67. But we don't have to let them in.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 03:16 PM
Sep 2014

While I agree that wages are moving towards convergence (the high wages after WWII cannot be duplicated unless we want another world war ), we don't have to assist in destroying the wages of Americans.

Seriously, my working class family did most jobs in construction. Those jobs clothed, housed, and fed us. Why should those wages be suppressed by illegal immigration?

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
69. American prosperity is partly built on exploiting the resources and labour of developing countries.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 03:26 PM
Sep 2014

The Obama administration, for instance, intervened to keep Haiti from raising their minimum wage for textile workers because it would drive up the price of Levi's.

Two years ago, Haiti unanimously passed a law sharply raising its minimum wage to 61 cents an hour. That doesn’t sound like much (and it isn’t), but it was two and a half times the then-minimum of 24 cents an hour.

This infuriated contractors for (UPDATE: I originally wrote that the companies themselves did this here, but The Nation wrote that it was contractors for the companies, so I’ve added “contractors for” here) American corporations like Hanes and Levi Strauss that pay Haitians slave wages to sew their clothes. They said they would only fork over a seven-cent-an-hour increase, and they got the State Department involved. The U.S. ambassador put pressure on Haiti’s president, who duly carved out a $3 a day minimum wage for textile companies (the U.S. minimum wage, which itself is very low, works out to $58 a day).
- See more at: http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/a_pulled_scoop_shows_us_booste.php#sthash.dTiEvmCE.dpuf


And the conditions causing mass emigration from Latin America to the USA? The USA can own some of the blame for that as well; the US-led "war on drugs" and the profitability of the drugs trade have led to criminal gangs and widespread lawlessness in much of Latin America, and NAFTA basically [idestroyed the livelihoods of Mexican farmers]. The removal of agriculture tariffs meant that suddenly Mexico was flooded with heavily-subsidised US-grown corn that drove quite a lot of Mexican farmers into poverty. The USA destroyed their livelihood, why shouldn't they come to the USA to look for work, if that's where it is?
 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
75. NOT CEOS!!! We should ask them WTF NOT?
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 03:54 PM
Sep 2014
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/06/30/americas-ceos-class-all-themselves

If they think everyone should be globalized, then maybe we should have a H-1B program to bring in cheaper CEOs from overseas so that we can have more money to pay all of the other employees then. Why? Because THEY call the shots and THEY want to have everyone as slaves for themselves! THAT is why we have this so-called "globalization". It is a SCAM to continue to drive their wealth and prosperity up, but creating bigger "bottoms" that are "globalized" that they can race to so that they can steal the wealth and prosperity of everyone else!

brentspeak

(18,290 posts)
98. Your presence on a US Democratic forum is therefore puzzling
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 11:28 PM
Sep 2014

Whether members here are Democrats, non-Democratic party progressives, or something else entirely, one thing that everyone on DU is assumed to share, despite any particular criticisms of US policy, ultimately is a love for the United States and a desire for its citizenry to prosper.

You, on the other, are rooting for the opposite -- for Chinese and Indian citizens to benefit economically at the expense of American citizens.

I don't think its overstating it to say that you are, in fact, "anti-American".

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
113. See, here's the thing
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 10:50 AM
Sep 2014

I have lived outside the US for some time, now. This has given me a broader perspective. And I don't happen to think that the USA deserves to prosper at the expense of other countries. As it has done for some time, now (5% of the global population but 25% of global GDP, 30% of total resource consumption, etc).

pampango

(24,692 posts)
138. "...a love for the United States and a desire for its citizenry to prosper." True but not limited to
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 12:42 PM
Sep 2014

that.

Many liberals equally have a love of all people (not just the 5% that live in the US) and have a desire for all people (not just the American 5%) to prosper.

I don't think its overstating it to say that you are, in fact, "anti-American".

IMHO, calling someone "anti-American" is a right wing tactic.

Liberals get accused by conservatives all the time of being "unAmerican" and not being 'patriotic' enough.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
100. Just like white male privilege
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 09:29 AM
Sep 2014

No such thing as an American job. The job can be done anywhere, by anyone. Or anything, when it comes to automation.

At the time of the peak on that graph, who's getting all that money? White men. Women weren't really part of the labor force. The Civil Rights era hadn't started yet. There was a short period of time where white men/America was lucky. The world belonged to them. Then everyone else wanted/got in on the game.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
112. Wow.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 10:49 AM
Sep 2014

Maybe we should punish all Americans just so we can make sure that those white men get their punishment, as well.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
117. Just comparing the situations
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:04 AM
Sep 2014

As was said, the US has 5% of the world's population. We're not going to just get whatever we want because we're in "America" anymore.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
123. If you mean we shouldn't be throwing our weight around the world
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:20 AM
Sep 2014

to get what we want, I completely agree.

But if you mean we should open the borders to reduce wages here IN this country, I completely disagree!

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
131. No, just saying it's happening
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:52 AM
Sep 2014

More of a comment on the losing of control of our own lives to distant forces. That's been the case for thousands of years with globalization. More and more people living within a single system. Each person meaning less, and thus having less value to the greater functioning of the machine.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
132. It doesn't HAVE to happen
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:55 AM
Sep 2014

We don't have to lose control of our own sovereignty. We are letting the globalists win.

WestCoastLib

(442 posts)
159. Living wages for the working class is a myth
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 03:15 AM
Sep 2014

At least in American Capitalism. We had a string middle class, with production workers earning family supporting wages for a short time, but it was simply a fluke. With the early 20th century wars, Europe was decimated and rebuilding for decades. Asia was rebuilding too and not yet the economic power of today. In that tiny time frame of our history, since the wars were not fought on American soil, we were able to pick up most of that slack and be a manufacturing power.

With the exception of this fluke of history, we have only ever had what we are heading toward now. A very small number of extremely wealthy and a huge poor class, with a small middle class.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
89. You know, I bet H1B executives would be far cheaper than US-born executives
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 10:10 PM
Sep 2014

Clearly we should be importing more H1B managers and executives. It'll save tons of money.

And I'm sure it will happen real soon now. Real soon. Any time now.....

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
97. That's capitalism on a global scale for you
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 10:47 PM
Sep 2014

You think any other President would have acted differently? Please.

Also, I don't like the anti-immigrant/nativist tone of some of the posts here.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
101. "They took our jobs!" is funny, remember? Everybody said we shouldn't whine, remember? What changed?
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 09:37 AM
Sep 2014

Not sure why this is any worse than NAFTA, outsourcing, illegal immigration, Hyundai driving, etc.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
102. Ideals and reality don't always mix
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 09:52 AM
Sep 2014

Then of course sometimes it just depends on who says what.

In terms of any sphere of life, we usually want the best of both worlds, without the downside of either one. Which is never possible. We're just good at hiding the downsides, for a time. They do eventually catch up with us though.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
103. The "ideal" is every man for himself. The reality is that this maxim applies to IT workers
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 09:56 AM
Sep 2014

with equal force.

Most importantly, it is likely not possible to expose the great mass of Americans to the vagaries of globalization while simultaneously sheltering the IT worker community from these same competitive forces.

Nor do threads like these provide any moral or logical framework for doing so. "Competition" is painful, but necessary in this globalized economy, remember? Get retrained, remember???

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
130. Until we have worldwide free movements of people
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:37 AM
Sep 2014

which we will have soon enough with the globalists itching to drive wages down even farther, don't you think Country A has a right to protect jobs, if Countries B, C, D, E, F, G, and H are doing so? I'd like to move to Canada, but I don't think I can. Gee, imagine that.

That seems quite logical and moral to me.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
150. Of course we have a "right" to do so. I just don't see any evidence that we will.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 03:58 PM
Sep 2014

America has already decided this issue: DEMOCRATS signed NAFTA. DEMOCRATS gave "Most Favored Nation" status to China. A DEMOCRAT (Barack Obama) recently gave us "Free Trade" with Korea. I didn't see a peep here on DU.

On the other end of the spectrum, the building trades have been utterly destroyed as a vehicle for a middle class lifestyle, due to unrestricted unskilled immigration, which is ongoing. Democrats, by and large, support this.

So what makes IT jobs the line in the sand? I don't see any logical reason to believe it will be, nor any special moral argument that it should be. The Democratic Party is the party of globalization and international capital. It would seem IT workers want an exemption from all of this, but why would they expect it, given recent history? Or, more to the point, given their own silence about "free trade" up until now?

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
151. Special Snowflakes
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 04:17 PM
Sep 2014

Because when the Trades were getting hammered the Special Snowflakes with Degrees remained silent for they thought they were immune to this degradation(they also benefited quite nicely). That piece of paper was a shield that would protect them from the avarice of business. Any mook can build a building, but I have a degree in XYZ. Little did they know when the stone went dry of blood, their stone would be picked up and destroyed.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
165. Actually, I have a lot to say about the trades getting hammered
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 09:00 AM
Sep 2014

which would inevitably lead to charges of "racism" here. People will remain silent as long as facts are ignored, and pejoratives are thrown around to silence discussion.


See my post 49 in this thread and read responses to my comments here. By the way, I grew up in and around the construction trades. My extended family was virtually all in construction.

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
167. Because they do not see from their Ivory Towers
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 09:39 AM
Sep 2014

They all assume you are talking strictly about Mexican Workers and being racist.
When in fact Sheet rocking and Plastering was taken over by French Canadians that would work for sheet pay and not hourly, then after making a bundle would go back to Canada and reap a bigger reward due to the old exchange rate.
Hard wood flooring became one of the areas that Vietnamese workers concentrated on, and their are still plenty of Illegal Irishman and Portuguese coming over and laying brick for pennies on the dollar.
There is also a vast Brazilian populace here working in the trades that have hurt the local Americans.

brentspeak

(18,290 posts)
162. What makes you think IT workers are globalization cheerleaders
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 05:00 AM
Sep 2014

and want to be exempt from offshoring/inshoring? Where did this misconception come from?

As for posts on DU criticizing Democrats for their own role in shipping jobs out of the country, there must be thousands of them. I myself have posted numerous threads on the topic:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3433278&mesg_id=3433293

http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x820926



Romulox

(25,960 posts)
164. They don't have to be cheerleaders, just part of the same system as the rest of us.
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:53 AM
Sep 2014
What makes you think IT workers are globalization cheerleaders and want to be exempt from offshoring/inshoring?


I didn't say IT workers were "cheerleaders", or even imply that they support globalization any more than the average American does. What I am saying is they are not exempt from the laws of cause and effect. We're not going to make a special carve out for IT workers after gutting the rest of the middle class. Not the least of which is because formerly middle class people don't have the money to pay you the wages that they themselves have been denied.

But I will say that it is not possible for IT workers to drum up much sympathy with an approach that ignores what has happened to the broader middle class in the last 30 years. It does indeed come off a bit like somehow this is important now, in a way that it wasn't before, because these are our jobs--in other words, self-serving.

A labor movement has to be just that--a broad movement based on collective self-interest. It can't be a collection of narrow interests armed with guilt trips. Not when the people you are addressing have themselves been devastated.

I myself have posted numerous threads on the topic:


Thank you for you efforts. This is not personal. This is cause and effect, as I mentioned. We can't tear down the middle class while preserving a special place for IT workers. It'll either be a broad movement to protect workers, or IT workers will have to expect the same treatment the rest of us have gotten.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
166. IT Workers Are The Canary In the Coal Mine For the Promises Made to Americans
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 09:14 AM
Sep 2014

They represent that better future that both parties have been hyping for the past fifty years. Better education. Higher paying jobs. Blah, blah, blah. Don't worry. Those manufacturing jobs are going overseas, but we will replace them with better, higher paying jobs. Sure, there's going to be some disruption and pain, but things will get better...blah, blah, blah

STEM, and in particular, IT workers are practically the mascot for those promises made. Remember those promises?

And by the way, as you can see from my many other posts here, I have a lot to say about the trades being decimated, as well!

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
171. IT jobs are no more significant than were auto jobs, a generation ago.
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 12:23 PM
Sep 2014
Better education. Higher paying jobs. Blah, blah, blah. Don't worry. Those manufacturing jobs are going overseas, but we will replace them with better, higher paying jobs. Sure, there's going to be some disruption and pain, but things will get better...blah, blah, blah

STEM, and in particular, IT workers are practically the mascot for those promises made. Remember those promises?


You traded the support of all of those ex-auto workers for short term job security. It's particularly insulting to say that IT workers are the canaries in the coalmine, when the entire industrial midwest lies in ruins.

At any rate, have you ever heard of a deal with the Devil that turns out just as planned? Everybody should've read the fine print. Americans sold out their fellows for empty promises.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
173. I didn't sell out anyone
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 01:43 PM
Sep 2014

Against NAFTA, against sending our jobs overseas, against illegal immigration suppressing wages, blah, blah, blah.

misterhighwasted

(9,148 posts)
105. So its really the Oligarchs that hate us for our freedoms! Okay I see now.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 10:05 AM
Sep 2014

Silly me, I thought they meant foreign nations.

 

kelliekat44

(7,759 posts)
109. Yes, and large numbers of spouses get the plum jobs at gov/t agencies like NASA, NIH, AG, NSF, CDC.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 10:39 AM
Sep 2014

A huge number of six-figure jobs go to these spouses and adult children while US citizens with credentials and qualifications take lower paying jobs just to get into the government and prestigious private companies.

Progressive dog

(6,900 posts)
111. So is it better to just ship the jobs
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 10:46 AM
Sep 2014

to places with lower costs of living? Intellectual property has low shipping costs.

 

vkkv

(3,384 posts)
128. The U.S. has become the Third World country that
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:33 AM
Sep 2014

needs to welcome more educated workers to our shores because the U.S. isn't willing to spend the money on education for it's own people.

Many of us Libtards predicted this exact scenario... Yes, we Libs are so 'tarded'.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
129. Shameful. All immigrants should be on equal footing. All should have the same rights.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:35 AM
Sep 2014

All visas should be for short periods, no work permitted unless they are permanent visas.l

H-1B visas should not exist.

A person should either come here to live, come here to visit, or stay out. Student visas should be given year by year, and students should not be allowed to intern or work while living here.

Wives or husbands and family should not be given work visas if here on short-term defined visas with their families.

LostInAnomie

(14,428 posts)
161. Hmmm... A flood of cheap labor never seemed to be an issue before...
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 04:13 AM
Sep 2014

... when it was manual labor jobs racing to the bottom. After all, aren't these immigrants "just taking jobs no American wants"? Maybe these tech workers should "go back to school" or "learn a trade".

Welcome to the real American labor market, tech workers. Engineers and nurses, you're next.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
175. Just wait 'til employers start arranging marriages between workers for H-1B reasons.
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 01:53 PM
Sep 2014

I'm not saying it will happen a lot, but someone, somewhere will do this sort of thing. Some sort of internal, corporate "H-1b-harmoney".

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