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KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:36 PM Sep 2014

Gay Culture Is Dying. Good Riddance!

Wait, wait, before you hit Alert, hear her out.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/09/08/gay_culture_i_look_forward_to_its_extinction_dialogue.html

The notion that gay culture might be experiencing something of a decline is not a new one. Andrew Sullivan got there nine years ago. You've chronicled the decline of the gay bar here in Slate, and others have noted the increasing straightness of gay vacation spots. There's also a recent study that suggests fewer gay people are moving to predominantly gay neighborhoods. All this is bad news for certain people—gay cruise directors, for instance, and real-estate agents with lots of listings in the gayborhood. But should the wider LGBTQ community really be spending time, energy, and emotional bandwidth on pleas to preserve gay spaces?

The preservationist impulse is an understandable one. Lesbians and gays are a tiny minority. Historically, we've been subject to stigma and oppression at the hands of a larger culture acting under the influence of the purity dictates of irrational ancient religions. Today, though, these religious prohibitions are holding far less sway over modern ideas and attitudes, and they were themselves something of an historical accident, a case of a fringe religious group (Christians) unexpectedly coming to dominate Western culture a thousand years ago. The two previous cultures to which Westerners owe the greatest cultural debt, those of Greece and Rome, didn’t find anything particularly wrong or abhorrent in homosexual activity. Although their ethic was nothing like our modern one, it is instructive to note that there is nothing natural or inevitable about moral or legal prohibitions of homosexuality....

Those who suggest that we, as gays, will always need places of refuge show a failure of imagination at how bright our future can be. They assume that there must always be some stigma, some feeling of difference, or separateness, or loneliness, remaining after the work of the LGBTQ movement is accomplished. But why? After all, left-handedness was once associated with the devil, but there is no distinct left-handed subculture. Left-handed people have their shared annoyances, they even have pride, of a sort, in their supposed tendencies toward creativity and genius. But there are no left-handed bars or cruises.

Gays and lesbians are different from left-handers in one important way, which is that we must seek out and date each other (or bisexuals of our own gender). If Internet dating didn’t exist, this would probably be enough to make designated gay spaces a necessity. As it is, however, even this level of segregation has become unnecessary. Gays and lesbians should not be afraid of a future where we reclaim our birthright by integrating fully into the communities that give birth to us.

52 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Gay Culture Is Dying. Good Riddance! (Original Post) KamaAina Sep 2014 OP
Sorry if this sounds bad, but I prefer the company of gay people like me. closeupready Sep 2014 #1
mostly seconded. La Lioness Priyanka Sep 2014 #3
I should have added lesbians, too - that's totally fine with me. closeupready Sep 2014 #5
when i tell gay people that i can't accept a job in several states, they always know what i mean La Lioness Priyanka Sep 2014 #10
Same here! I used to travel a lot and it was always great to be in a strange city for RKP5637 Sep 2014 #17
This message was self-deleted by its author closeupready Sep 2014 #20
I hope you aren't saying straight people are yucky right? snooper2 Sep 2014 #19
This message was self-deleted by its author closeupready Sep 2014 #21
Ah, gotcha, next time start recording, train videos get a lot of views on YouTube snooper2 Sep 2014 #22
lol, that's funny - closeupready Sep 2014 #23
Wow. TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #26
Probably. No apologies about it either, if that's what you want here. closeupready Sep 2014 #27
Expect an apology? TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #28
as a straight guy, I kinda enjoy gay culture KG Sep 2014 #2
Well, I guess. Xyzse Sep 2014 #4
Unrec... joeybee12 Sep 2014 #6
Um, Andrew Sullivan has been on Colbert KamaAina Sep 2014 #9
So has Peggy Noonan...nt joeybee12 Sep 2014 #14
+1 Behind the Aegis Sep 2014 #15
andrew sullivan xchrom Sep 2014 #24
The only "culture" that can't die out is ID by skin color. nt kelliekat44 Sep 2014 #7
Hmmm. This seems like the melting pot theory in a way. el_bryanto Sep 2014 #8
One hopes that at least remnants of it will survive KamaAina Sep 2014 #11
I hope so too! n/t RKP5637 Sep 2014 #18
There is a left handed subculture,it's just super secret sufrommich Sep 2014 #12
LOL! smirkymonkey Sep 2014 #50
Wow, that was some kind of stupid. Behind the Aegis Sep 2014 #13
Hear hear! shaayecanaan Sep 2014 #32
Perhaps you can join her in reasearch. Behind the Aegis Sep 2014 #33
People forget there isn't a bright line between gay culture and straight culture. pnwmom Sep 2014 #16
i really only hang out -- in real life -- with gay people -- gay men in fact. xchrom Sep 2014 #25
never, ever think DonCoquixote Sep 2014 #29
I thought it said "Gun Culture is Dying. Good Riddance" madinmaryland Sep 2014 #30
I did, too! Same reason. Some of my ammo is forming a culture... Eleanors38 Sep 2014 #36
I think this article raises some good points. AverageJoe90 Sep 2014 #31
I read an article on this some years back ismnotwasm Sep 2014 #34
And THIS is why you are a TRUE BLUE ally! Behind the Aegis Sep 2014 #35
This is mostly the opinion that has been shared with me by gay men Sen. Walter Sobchak Sep 2014 #37
What does this even mean? Behind the Aegis Sep 2014 #38
I question that too. It's not as if gays on the whole are any more "self-destructive" than heteros. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #39
I am wondering what the response will be. Behind the Aegis Sep 2014 #41
I believe they were referring to promiscuity, hard drugs and disease. Sen. Walter Sobchak Sep 2014 #44
Thank you for your response. Behind the Aegis Sep 2014 #52
I certainly think it's possibe (even desirable) to maintain a distinctive culture and community nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #40
I heard Sarah Weddington speak when I was in college. Behind the Aegis Sep 2014 #42
That's a great way to put it. People shouldn't have to be "the same" just to co-exist. n/t nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #43
Fuck Andrew Sullivan. QC Sep 2014 #45
I wouldn't if I were you. KamaAina Sep 2014 #46
Except for the bar scene when I was younger, cwydro Sep 2014 #47
I am saddened to see posts from DUers who Codeine Sep 2014 #48
...NO....Gay Culture isn't going away irisblue Sep 2014 #49
I guess I'm an outlier teenagebambam Sep 2014 #51
 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
1. Sorry if this sounds bad, but I prefer the company of gay people like me.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:42 PM
Sep 2014

There are so many levels on which I find absolutely ZERO common ground with people who do sexual acts with the members of the opposite gender.

What can I say. I do not rejoice in seeing gay subculture wane. But then I'm older than most so there's that, I suppose.

 

La Lioness Priyanka

(53,866 posts)
10. when i tell gay people that i can't accept a job in several states, they always know what i mean
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:51 PM
Sep 2014

every single time i have to explain to straight people, that in many states i will lose my marriage rights and possibly employment protections.

it's only one example why my friends are primarily LGBTQ identified

RKP5637

(67,102 posts)
17. Same here! I used to travel a lot and it was always great to be in a strange city for
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:03 PM
Sep 2014

several weeks on business and to be able to find a ready made comfortable experience in a gay club where you sort of felt you were with family in a strange city very far from home.

Response to RKP5637 (Reply #17)

Response to snooper2 (Reply #19)

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
23. lol, that's funny -
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:38 PM
Sep 2014

I think the legalities though of getting a model's release is a grey area I don't want to test, but if I were homeless and assetless, I guess I'd be more willing ...

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
26. Wow.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:46 PM
Sep 2014

"There are so many levels on which I find absolutely ZERO common ground with people who do sexual acts with the members of the opposite gender."


I am trying to imagine why that is. I guess I could understand it if life was all about "sexual acts," but it's not.

I completely understand wanting to have spheres where you can be around other gay folks, but if you have ZERO in common with straight people, I think that says something about your personality - not your sexuality.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
28. Expect an apology?
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 03:25 PM
Sep 2014

That truly never entered my brain.

You are who you are, but I'm glad my gay friends feel differently. They enrich my life - not because they are gay, but because they are great.

Xyzse

(8,217 posts)
4. Well, I guess.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:47 PM
Sep 2014

In fact, I am a bit enthused and happy to note that when dealing with weddings lately, many don't even ask what genders are in there.
It is just called a marriage.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
9. Um, Andrew Sullivan has been on Colbert
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:50 PM
Sep 2014

Are you ready to throw The Greatest Living American(TM) under the bus?

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
8. Hmmm. This seems like the melting pot theory in a way.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:50 PM
Sep 2014

Once in the United States we believed that all those ethnic differences would melt away and we'd be one homogonized people and this was pretty desirable. That usually meant that racial minorities would learn to act like middle-class wasps - a dubious benefit at best.

While it is laudable that Gays are more accepted in regular society - if there is a Gay Community/Gay Culture, I don't know if it'd necessarily be a good thing that that disappeared.

But I'm straight so may not be looking at this correctly.

Bryant

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
11. One hopes that at least remnants of it will survive
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:52 PM
Sep 2014

as remnants of immigrant culture have in NYC's Little Italy and Chinatown.

Behind the Aegis

(53,944 posts)
13. Wow, that was some kind of stupid.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:55 PM
Sep 2014
The two previous cultures to which Westerners owe the greatest cultural debt, those of Greece and Rome, didn’t find anything particularly wrong or abhorrent in homosexual activity. Although their ethic was nothing like our modern one, it is instructive to note that there is nothing natural or inevitable about moral or legal prohibitions of homosexuality....


She needs to do some damn research. Too many people falsely believe ancient Greece and Rome were hotbeds of homo-acceptance. They were not. There is a difference between same-sex acts and homosexuality.

I am actually quite sick of people trying to assimilate. It is one thing to be a part of life, and quite another to do it at the expense by denying the culture of one of your identities.

This reads like something a self-loathing homosexual would write; filled with internalized homophobia and disdain.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
32. Hear hear!
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 12:21 AM
Sep 2014
She needs to do some damn research. Too many people falsely believe ancient Greece and Rome were hotbeds of homo-acceptance. They were not. There is a difference between same-sex acts and homosexuality.


Damn straight. I engage in furious bouts of same-sex acts all the time and I'm not even slightly gay.

pnwmom

(108,973 posts)
16. People forget there isn't a bright line between gay culture and straight culture.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 01:59 PM
Sep 2014

But all of us children of gay people don't. And neither do people who identify as bi.

Through an online group of the children of gays and lesbians, I've heard from many teen and adult children who have felt excluded from both cultures. With their parents, they are condemned by some straight people. And yet some gay people don't accept straight children as real members of their communities, because "they can pass."

You'd think they'd realize that passing isn't good enough.

xchrom

(108,903 posts)
25. i really only hang out -- in real life -- with gay people -- gay men in fact.
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 02:42 PM
Sep 2014

we are older -- so nothing outrageous about our culture -- but lots of dinner parties and movies.

i am not comfortable with straights.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
29. never, ever think
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 04:13 PM
Sep 2014

That once you achieve a certain level of money, that you cannot be targeted. So many jews were in Germany that it was called "the new palestine."

madinmaryland

(64,931 posts)
30. I thought it said "Gun Culture is Dying. Good Riddance"
Tue Sep 9, 2014, 05:56 PM
Sep 2014

Well I saw it on my cellphone. Can't a person dream for that???

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
36. I did, too! Same reason. Some of my ammo is forming a culture...
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 03:41 AM
Sep 2014

turning turquoise and all from age. Time for another session at the range.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
31. I think this article raises some good points.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 12:14 AM
Sep 2014

Indeed, wouldn't be nice to see society understand being gay as just another part of American life? I hope to live to see that day.

ismnotwasm

(41,975 posts)
34. I read an article on this some years back
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 02:00 AM
Sep 2014

The deep rooted Gay culture, with so many positives out of horror, well I would hate to see it die. While I believe that Gay people have the same human rights as straights, they are not the 'same'--they shouldn't have to be--and the dying of Gay culture leaves our world culture poorer. I hope always to attend pride parades, I hope Gays always have their places to meet and greet and get to know each other.


Gay culture is so rich, and offers so much, I hope the straight world is able to see even a tiny part of it.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
37. This is mostly the opinion that has been shared with me by gay men
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 04:04 AM
Sep 2014

They say there just aren't that many places they're inclined to go where they aren't welcome and if those amongst their community with more self-destructive tendencies are taking their business online and behind closed doors, that is just great too.

Behind the Aegis

(53,944 posts)
38. What does this even mean?
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 04:23 AM
Sep 2014
if those amongst their community with more self-destructive tendencies are taking their business online and behind closed doors, that is just great too.

Behind the Aegis

(53,944 posts)
41. I am wondering what the response will be.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 04:56 AM
Sep 2014

I have a feeling it will be "sexual" in nature. See, there is no "GLBT culture" except who we fuck! I learned that tonight...right here at DU!

Behind the Aegis

(53,944 posts)
52. Thank you for your response.
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 12:40 AM
Sep 2014

It demonstrates the issue of internalized homophobia well, when gays see "other" gays in that lens. There is more to our culture and community then how, how much, and how often we have sex.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
40. I certainly think it's possibe (even desirable) to maintain a distinctive culture and community
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 04:52 AM
Sep 2014

despite increasing social acceptance from the mainstream. Best of both worlds in a sense.

Behind the Aegis

(53,944 posts)
42. I heard Sarah Weddington speak when I was in college.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 05:02 AM
Sep 2014

She took on the concept of "melting pot" in regards to the US. She said there is no reason we need to become like one another in order to get along. We should be more like a "salad." We retain our individuality, but still come together to make something desirable.

QC

(26,371 posts)
45. Fuck Andrew Sullivan.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 05:54 PM
Sep 2014

His name should never come up in any intelligent discussion, unless the subject is right wing assholism.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
46. I wouldn't if I were you.
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 06:03 PM
Sep 2014

He is rumored to engage in unprotected sex ("barebacking&quot . If true, since he is HIV+ and knows it, that is irresponsible bordering on criminal (actually is criminal in some states).

 

cwydro

(51,308 posts)
47. Except for the bar scene when I was younger,
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 06:14 PM
Sep 2014

I don't live in any sort of "gay culture" world.

I have gay friends, straight friends, bi friends.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
48. I am saddened to see posts from DUers who
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 06:51 PM
Sep 2014

are uncomfortable with straight people. I understand, I guess -- but it still brings me down.

My gay friends enrich my life and bring me great joy, and I hope I do the same for them. I suppose it helps that we all embrace nerd culture with sufficient enthusiasm so as to render all else secondary.

irisblue

(32,962 posts)
49. ...NO....Gay Culture isn't going away
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 07:14 PM
Sep 2014

The Lesbian Music Festivals are still happening; one here in Ohio quite soon; there will be some scared, just 18 yr old kid from Ashville Ohio will work up the nerve to go in The South Bend Tavern on a Friday night, and the 2014 Columbus Pride Parade& Festival had more then 400,000 attendes. We aren't going away. And Andrew Sullivan...a joke. We're here, we're queer, get used to it.

teenagebambam

(1,592 posts)
51. I guess I'm an outlier
Wed Sep 10, 2014, 08:14 PM
Sep 2014

Husband and I (together 21 years) have always sort of "mainstreamed" ourselves as far as choice of neighborhood, social activities, etc. Except for one other long term gay couple, our best friends are all straight couples.

We never faced ostracization from our families, and our careers are in the arts where sexuality was never an issue, and I guess that probably has a lot to do with it.
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