Michael Moore is being crticized for racism, not policy commentary

[geek tragedy]

A lot of people are complaining that Moore is being attacked solely because he criticized President Obama's policies.

That's a rather obtuse, perhaps willfully so, claim.

He's being criticized because what he said was explicitly racist--explicitly reducing President Obama to nothing more than his skin pigmentation, stating that NOTHING about the President's record in office matters, only his skin color. There's a long history of this kind of stuff on the part of white people, and it's racist as fuck.

And Moore has a history of this, as one would expect from a privileged white guy with no filter.

https://web.archive.org/web/20030206101644/http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=366725

What we did not expect was to feel so enraged at one point that we almost walked out. It was when Moore went into a rant about how the passengers on the planes on 11 September were scaredy-cats because they were mostly white. If the passengers had included black men, he claimed, those killers, with their puny bodies and unimpressive small knives, would have been crushed by the dudes, who as we all know take no disrespect from anybody. God save us from such stupid white men, especially now, when in the US and the UK, black people's lives are being ripped to shreds by drugs, lawlessness, fear and frightful violence plus the endless circle of racism, exclusion and incarceration. This is not awesome, Mr Moore; it is a calamity, for descendants of slaves unimaginably more so.

Just putting this out there so maybe some white progressives who are less sensitive to this stuff than others will get it.

[TreasonousBastard]

1. I don't know if he is a racist they way we...

traditionally consider racists.

But he is certainly confused.

[geek tragedy]

3. racism manifests itself in all kinds of ways

some of it ostensibly benign "clean and articulate" or projection "people won't see him as anything more than a token"

[bullwinkle428]

10. Re: "clean and articulate" - are you calling Joe Biden a racist by definition?

[vi5]

2. I don't disagree regarding Moore.

However, the president's supporters don't do him or anyone any favors by dismissing most or all criticisms of him and his policies and his presidency to racism either.

[geek tragedy]

5. policy criticism should be rebutted using policy arguments, not

accusations of racism

[vi5]

9. Correct.

But that's something that a lot of vehemently pro-Obama folks would be wise to remember and too often forget.

It's one thing when it's lobbed against Republicans who have a history of racism. But when it's used against fellow Dems with no history of anything even close to racism, simply because they disagree with policy, then it loses much of it's credibility.

[geek tragedy]

17. kind of like anti-semitism and Israel--just because some propagandists

try to smear all critics as Jew-haters doesn't mean that some criticism isn't influenced by negative attitudes towards Jews

[Behind the Aegis]

110. True.

Except, when one does try to point out the anti-Semitism, the numbers are usually reversed in what gets defended. Comments like #4 in this thread, changed to Israel and anti-Semitism respectively, will greatly outnumber those defending against another form of bigotry.

[geek tragedy]

112. here, sadly yes. nt

[Scuba]

147. +1

[joeglow3]

30. So, President Obama will not be remembered as being the first black president?

Shit. Did I just say something racist?

[geek tragedy]

33. that is ONE thing for which he will be remembered. The point is that defining black people

by their race to the exclusion of all other accomplishments, words, actions, qualities etc is racist.

Perhaps you should try to listen instead of being so defensive.

[joeglow3]

47. Then I think MM's point flew right over your hear

NO ONE disputes that he will be remembered for being the black president. However, MM seems to think he has done little policy wise that will be remembered decades from now. That is NOT defensive.

Maybe YOU should try to listen instead of going on the offensive.

[geek tragedy]

48. No, this is just MM and his ilk playing the race card in order to attack the President.

When white people use a black person's race to frame a criticism, 99.99% of the time that's just plain racism

This is an attempt to diminish the president to being nothing but a skin pigment.

The real dynamic is that Moore is projecting his racism onto everyone else--he's assuming because all he can see is a black man playing the role of president, that's all anyone else sees. Because racists of all ideological stripes tend to engage in projection to avoid coming to terms with their own racism.

Republicans certainly will remember him in policy terms. People claiming to be progressive should make an attempt to be less racist than Republicans.

[joeglow3]

49. We will have to agree to disagree

Michael Moore has been consistent with his criticism of our president gravitating to the right. And your view is that he feels that way because of racism.

I disagree 100% with that.

[geek tragedy]

51. No, it's my view that Moore saying that Obama is nothing but the color of his skin is racist.

If Moore had said he was too lenient on Wall Street and torturers, or that he should have never flirted with austerity, or that he should have not supported trade deals, that would not be racist.

It would not be racist to say he is a war criminal, a liar, or an ally of the 1%.

it is racist to say he's nothing but his skin color--that's pretty much the essence of racism

sorry you don't have a problem with that.

[brush]

66. I think you finally got him with that last post, geek tragedy

Moore or course should know better than to blast the president with nothing more than his skin color — no accomplishments acknowledged (and there have been plenty), or no policy criticisms cited.

And btw, the ACA is ground-breaking law and the most significant piece of progressive legislation since the days of LBJ and FDR — even though it's not single payer.

Moore should be blasted back for allowing himself to fall into knee-jerk racism.

HE OF ALL PEOPLE KNOWS BETTER THAN THAT.

[joeglow3]

149. No. I am just done pissing in the wind

We all KNOW obama will be remembered as the first black president. We disagree about what else he will be remembered for. Had Michael said those two comments months apart, no one would be upset (although many would disagree with the second one). However, since he combined the two, people suddenly scream racism. Frankly, I think it has A LOT to do with not wanting to address the second point. You see, if we can successfully label him a racist, we no longer even need to debate the second point. We have now changed the conversation AND dismissed him as a racist in own swoop.

In short, it is intellectual dishonesty.

[brush]

150. There was no need to bring in race . . .

all he had to do was mention that no banksters went to jail, and the ACA of course, for what this president would be remembered for.

As I said, he of all people knows better.

If he's disappointed in Obama I'm just as disappointed in him, a known progressive, for stooping to race card playing.

There was no need.

[LexVegas]

4. Ha. Everyone that criticizes Obama in any way is a racist.

[geek tragedy]

6. thanks for the thoughtful contribution

and sensitivity towards racism

[YoungDemCA]

24. Did the OP say that?

Or do you need more straw?

[Bobbie Jo]

31. Whoooosh

[pnwmom]

39. Anyone who says that all Obama has accomplished is being the first black President is a racist.

Any other President would get some credit - at least by his own party -- for having dug the country out of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. And for having gotten universal healthcare coverage passed, along with a large Medicaid expansion.

[840high]

84. The term has lost it's

meaning due to overuse.

[SidDithers]

106. Welcome to DU...

Sid

[Tarheel_Dem]

128. Great retort. Oh, and welcome back. You were missed.

[NYC_SKP]

7. Like Maher, whatever talent he had seems to be slipping. Reduced to insult humor.

His Schtick has always been to be a fly in the ointment, but in the past it has purpose.

This latest comment is just taking a meaningless cheap shot to get attention.

Good post, good find on his clearly clueless attitude toward race in America.

[mimi85]

54. Glad someone else recognizes

Bill Maher for what he's become.

[el_bryanto]

8. I think that people decide that his comments are racist because they approve of President Obama's

track record. If you look at the Obama Presidency and see it as largely a failure - better than any republican of course, but still basically a do-nothing President, than what Moore said is correct; Obama hasn't done any thing of significance and therefore the the thing he will be remembered for is being a black president.

If you think that Obama has done a lot of great things, but other people downplay or ignore those great things, well, one possible explanation for why they don't acknowledge Obama's greatness is that they are racist. I don't think that's where Moore is coming from though.

Has Obama done noteworthy and positive things as President? If the answer to the first question is no, do you refuse to acknowledge Obama's accomplishments because he is black?

Bryant

[randome]

11. Even if you take racism out of the equation, what Moore said was, at the very least, very ignorant.

No one should be described the way he described Obama. It was an ignorant comment that contributed nothing to the national discourse.

Except...this.

I could say that Moore will only be remembered as a fat film director and that would be just as insulting and just as useless a comment.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[geek tragedy]

13. Republicans will not remember him only as a black president.

They'll remember his actions in office--the ones they either imagine he did or the ones he did that they don't like. They'll remember Benghazi, and Fast and Furious, and pushing 'amnesty' and for being a big spender and someone who hates big business and who wants to punish people's success by taxing them.


The far left will see him as a corporatist, war-mongering blah blah blah

If people look at his 8 years in office and see nothing but skin color, that's a form of racism.

[el_bryanto]

18. 100 Years from now?

100 Years ago we had Woodrow Wilson who, for better or worse, is remembered - largely because he was President during WW1

But 102 years ago we had William Howard Taft. What accomplishments do you remember from the Taft Presidency? What failures did President Taft encounter?

Do you think Benghazi and the Fast and the Furious will still be discussed 100 years from now? Even the ACA might largely be forgotten assuming we get a progressive solution to Health Care in between now and then.

Bryant

[Capt. Obvious]

23. Howard Taft is remembered for the bath tub incident

Which may or may not be true.

Taft is often remembered as being the most obese president.[113] He was 5 feet 11 inches (1.80 m) tall; his weight peaked at 335–340 pounds (150 kg) toward the end of his Presidency.[114] The truth of the story of Taft getting stuck in a White House bathtub is unclear. However, he once did overflow a bathtub.[115][116]

Wiki

Not shockingly, most people don't know he was also Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

[geek tragedy]

26. Taft was the only person to be President and serve on the Supreme Court

Taft's record in office is largely overshadowed by Teddy Roosevelt, his predecessor and then rival in the next election "Bull Moose party" etc.

But, Taft is also known for "Dollar Diplomacy"

Also, corporations and personal income were taxed for the first time under Taft.

Some people will remember him for being fat, but that's ignorance not a reflection of his term in office.

[el_bryanto]

27. You knew that off the top of your head?

and do you anticipate that most Americans would know that off the top of their head?

I don't, personally.

I'm sure Obama will have a nice long Wikipedia entry, but what will people generally remember him for, assuming they remember him at all?

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

32. we're talking two different things--criticizing americans for having a very shallow

memory of history, vs criticizing Obama for doing nothing but being black while in office.

Do you think that Americans' memory of Taft as being fat is an indictment of his policies in office? I sure don't.

[el_bryanto]

34. No but I also think if you boil down the President's accomplishments in office

100 years from now - i think being the first Black President will be at the top of the list. There will be some sympathetic reviews "President Obama didn't accomplish as much as he might have due to incredible resistance from the right wing" and critical reviews "President Obama's instinct for conciliation pushed him to surrender prematurely again and again. That and his support for the surveillance state turned what could have been a progressive president into a center-right president, more noted for moderate competence than vision."

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

36. again, amongst whom, people who actually pay attention to policy or superficial ignoramuses

who can only remember a blowjob from Clinton's presidency?

Like it or hate it, the ACA is a BFD. The most controversial, contested, and litigated piece of legislation of the past quarter century.

And, since everyone knows it as Obamacare, chances are that is what people will remember.

Do people remember JFK primarily for his Catholicism? He had FAR fewer meaningful accomplishments in office.

[el_bryanto]

37. The ACA is a tiny step forward

I hope that in my lifetime we get a real progressive in office who will put forward what Obama should have put forward, something that actually takes the teeth out of the parasitical insurance industry, either by Single Payer or some other improvement. The ACA was written and created with the help of the Insurance Companies, so while it is a step forward, it's not much of one.

And if we get a real progressive who really challenges the insurance companies, than that will make the ACA seem much less significant.

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

42. The ACA is not 'tiny'--certainly not in terms of political importance and history

let alone the policy aspect.

You are conflating your policy objections to the legislation with its overall importance in our political discourse as well as just how big of a deal it actually is.

If it were only a 'tiny' measure, it would not have been the center of two successive elections, 50 repeal votes in the House, a Supreme Court challenge, and a government shutdown.

The ACA reduced the number of uninsured Americans by 10 MILLION. And it's affected just about everyone else.

Objectively, it is just plain inaccurate to call it 'tiny.'

[el_bryanto]

94. OK we disagree on that - I hope that the ACA will be remembered as a tiny step forward

And you believe it should be remembered as landmark legislation. Going back to the original argument - do you believe that my opinion of the ACA is based on racist feeling against Obama?

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

96. one can think of it as being a big step backwards without being racist.

but, love it or hate it or somewhere in between, it is not some unknown thing that barely registed in the public's consciousness.

The 2010 election was about Obamacare.

the 2012 election was about Obamacare.

The 2013 government shutdown was about Obamacare.

Its place in history as a high profile, well-known, famous/notorious/controversial piece of legislation is a matter of established fact.

It affects virtually every employer, every employee, every hospital, every medical device maker, many, many working poor, etc.

By itself, the expansion of Medicaid was a very big deal.

Its merit can certainly be denied, its importance and place in the public consciousness really can't be.

It's literally the most well-known piece of legislation in a generation. And it's got Obama's name fused with it.

The argument that he won't be remembered for it is utterly indefensible as a matter of empirical inquiry.

[el_bryanto]

97. "Utterly indefensible" - than why, in your opinion, would someone defend it?

And returning to the OP, is the decision to argue that Obamacare won't, in the long run, be that memorable proof of racism?

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

98. to drag his race into a discussion of his policies as a means of attacking him is racism.

People who are unsatisfied with legislation's direction will often deceive themselves as to its scope.

[el_bryanto]

104. "As a means of attacking him" - that part doesn't make a lot of sense.

He is the first black president - regardless of whatever else history accounts for him, they will probably include that. And if we get HRC than she will be remembered as the first woman president. It's possible that it will be like Kennedy being the first Catholic President, but prejudice against Blacks or women is a lot more deeply held.

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

105. but he's invoking it to reduce Obama to nothing more than that

It's the first-cousin of the people who called Obama the "Affirmative Action President'--the upshot in each instance is that the only thing that the president has going for him is his skin color.

It's crude reductivism.

[el_bryanto]

108. No it isn't - that doesn't make any sense.

When people say he's the affermative action president they are saying he's not qualified to be President. I don't think that Michael Moore is questioning his qualification. He's questioning how he used those qualifications; i.e. surrendering to Republicans pretty consistently.

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

109. same shit, different pile.

"not qualified to do the job" vs "turned out to not be qualified to do the job"

it's a very simple rule for white progressives: don't mention the president's race when criticizing him.

"He only won because he's black" is not appreciably more racist than "his only accomplishment was being black and president at the same time"

[el_bryanto]

115. Well yes it is

Because one implies that the only reason he got to be President is that he's black. He has no ability to be President because he's inferior. The other is a commentary on what he's achieved - which you believe to be a great deal, and Michael Moore believes to be very little. If he had done a lot of great things, and specifically, if under his presidency life in Flint and Detroit had gotten better (as that seems to be what triggered the remarks) than Moore would have praised the president.

In fairness, I don't know what Moore expected. Obama has always been wishy-washy middle of the roader; I'm disappointed at his expansion of the Surveillance state as I believed he would curtail that a bit, but other than that he's pretty much governed the way I expected him to.

I just wish we would nominate and elect someone who wasn't a wishy-washy middle of the roader. Instead we will probably nominate Hillary Clinton next.

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

116. and my point is that one can call him a centrist squish (which I do!) without resorting to dragging

his race into the discussion

[MoonchildCA]

58. It may be a tiny step forward to you...

But to the tens of thousands of lives it has saved so far, including mine, it is a very, very huge step in the right direction.

I agree we need to go further, hopefully single-payer, but to go from no insurance and no hope, to having your life back is no small thing.

[joshcryer]

137. Objectively false. Vermont passed single payer.

It will go into effect in 2017. It was not possible without the ACA because they would have had to raise payroll taxes to 11% to pay for it. Good luck with that.

Many states will follow as Vermont's system proves to be the best and most affordable.

It will take time for the Republican controlled states to follow, but even Kentucky shows that some of them can be sane.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

73. but JFK did have the love of a huge percentage of the populace

And no multi-billion $$$ Hate-Media repuke propaganda network lying to the public 24/7. Not just lying, but lying with extreme aggression.

People who respect and are grateful for PBO are afraid to say anything half the time, because the narrative of lies is so all-encompassing, so impervious to reason and memory, that it's a major feat just to make a dent in the armor.

[geek tragedy]

74. Kennedy received a lower % than Obama did in the elections.

There was a lot of hate towards him back then too.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

76. Ohhhhhhh...

I just have such strong memories of the popular perception of heroism, the love for the man.

I was a very little kid, so I admit, I wasn't looking very deeply. Just osmosed a cultural wave, I guess?

[geek tragedy]

81. happened before I was born. cultural wave is probably a good description though nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

83. it's not a period I've read up on, either.

So I defer to those who have actually done the research.

[RobinA]

89. I Thought

of JFK immediately when I started reading this thread. I suspect he WOULD be remembered mainly for his Catholicism if not for Vietnam and a few of his other scary debacles. And his assassination.

Now that I think about it, I suspect that in 100 years, assassination will trump Catholicism as his major claim to fame. I'm not sure Vietnam as an issue will survive the Boomers. Nor will his Cuban entanglements. Hell, going to the freakin' moon is already sliding far down the list, and that was one helluva major accomplishment.

Basically, none of these people are Washington, Lincoln or Roosevelt, so if they are remembered at all they will be remembered for the one or two things that set them apart or that they were first at. Race, gender, atomic bomb useage...

[brush]

72. Again, the ACA, the most significant piece of social . . .

Last edited Thu Sep 11, 2014, 10:22 PM - Edit history (1)

legislation since the days of LBJ and FDR.

You somehow leave that out on everyone of your posts.

[Bluenorthwest]

29. Wilson is a great case in point, folks say 'WW1' and that's all they know. Wilson was a huge racist

who reversed the integration of the Federal government and re-instituted segregation. No one remembers this. Here's old Woodrow on how terrible the post Civil War era was for white Southerners:
"self-preservation [forced whites] to rid themselves, by fair means or foul, of the intolerable burden of governments sustained by the votes of ignorant negroes."

[el_bryanto]

35. That's all accurate - and he apparently approved of the message of Birth of a Nation

The technically amazing film that lionized the Ku Klux Klan.

Technically amazing in that the film making techniques used were revolutionary. The message was awful.

Bryant

[JustAnotherGen]

41. I remember it

[brush]

68. C'mon, the ACA will be remembered as the . . .

Last edited Thu Sep 11, 2014, 09:24 PM - Edit history (1)

first step towards universal health care and the most significant piece of social legislation since the days of LBJ and FDR — and it was pushed thru on Obama's watch.

Criticize him for the things you don't think he got done but give the man credit for the things he did.

[NYC_SKP]

15. "Has Obama done noteworthy and positive things as President?" If you answered "no", then...

...then you can't be helped.

It's not racist to believe that he hasn't brought us healthcare reform, turned around the economy, wound down wars, and done countless other things, all despite the greatest resistance from the right any president has had to face.

It's utter and incurable blindness.

Amazing.

[belltower]

88. poppycock

On issue after issue after issue, PBO has not changed the tenor of any conversation.
He has been a brilliant technocrat of a president. But that's small...

MM is saying that -- insofar as SOCIAL PROGRESS is concerned -- the only change PBO has brought is the destruction of the white male monopoly on the office. That's not racist it's a fact. A challenge PBO faced, and overcame, and for which he RIGHTLY is to be lauded.

But we all know what PBO has not tried very hard to achieve SOCIAL PROGRESS.
He has not tried one whit to change that facts that
1. Warfare drives our economy
2. Wealth is captured by an elite
3. Methane and CO2 are out of control
4. Municipal & individual rights are being stripped
5. Paternalism remains our primary governing principle
6. Serfdom & ignorance is encouraged throughout society

In short, when you run on "change" that we DESPERATELY need
... and then don't change a g-dang thing to speak of, then wtf?

Frankly I don't believe the crap about "oh if he had a less obstructionist Congress then..."
A stinking load of steaming crap -- did you see the guy ever try to change that Congress?
No, because as a technocrat, he simply doesn't DO social progress.

[pnwmom]

40. You don't think digging us out of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression,

despite the concerted efforts of the Republicans in Congress on every step of the way, was a noteworthy accomplishment?

[belltower]

91. umm, that legislation was already passed before he took office

oh he did the Dodd act, which did NOT regulate derivatives, the smoking gun
oh he did the CFPC, Warren's baby, but he did NOT push it very hard

so what are you saying he did?
certainly not anything about wealth inequality or
hahaha living-minimum wage or
hehehe a broad jobs program or
yuckyuckyuck education-for-all or
pretty much anything that will have structural effects

and that's been the story of his presidency
... no structural change

[pnwmom]

107. TARP was passed earlier. But the $800 million economic stimulus was passed under Obama.

And that was critically important.

And the ACA was a huge achievement -- the first universal health coverage bill ever passed in the US, many decades after Medicare and Medicaid.

[belltower]

122. huh?

a) 800 million is peanuts, and that included 60% tax cuts, so get f'in real willya
b) ACA is not universal by any measure, never intended to be
c) Medicare is universal, for an age-group.

[pnwmom]

125. That 832 million averted a far worse financial crisis and arrested the 400,000 monthly job losses

we were facing when Obama took office.

And the ACA is universal and was intended to be. It, for the first time, guarantees that everyone will be able to qualify for health insurance, either through work or individually; and guarantees the Essential Benefits to everyone with either individual or employer or government based insurance.

It was also intended to be connected to a Medicaid expansion in every state, but SCOTUS stopped that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/opinion/sunday/what-the-stimulus-accomplished.html

Of all the myths and falsehoods that Republicans have spread about President Obama, the most pernicious and long-lasting is that the $832 billion stimulus package did not work. Since 2009, Republican lawmakers have inextricably linked the words “failed” and “stimulus,” and last week, five years after passage of the Recovery Act, they dusted off their old playbook again.

SNIP

The stimulus could have done more good had it been bigger and more carefully constructed. But put simply, it prevented a second recession that could have turned into a depression. It created or saved an average of 1.6 million jobs a year for four years. (There are the jobs, Mr. Boehner.) It raised the nation’s economic output by 2 to 3 percent from 2009 to 2011. It prevented a significant increase in poverty — without it, 5.3 million additional people would have become poor in 2010.

SNIP

Government spending worked, helping millions of people who never realized it. And it can work again, whenever lawmakers agree that putting people to work is more important than winning ideological fights.

[mimi85]

56. I guess getting OBL was

nothing. Quite the statement on 9/11. I'm sure the survivors would think it's "nothing."

[treestar]

12. I agree

He could have gone on with his usual "criticism" without mentioning skin color. Obama will always be remembered as the first black US President. While that is true and Moore could be referring to that, his coupling his usual put downs with that fact indicates he expected more from a POTUS because he was black - the black man has to do five times as much to get a fifth of the credit.

That Sept. 11 comment is really pretty bad. It sounds like he's putting down white men, but it's twisted in such a way that he's really going with the usual "blacks are more violent" shit.

[belltower]

92. no you're wrong my friend

MM was explicitly told, like all of us, and we voted for this:

CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN

where? when? what? WHY?
Why does he have a national address about war against a rag-tag army,
but NOTHING about the problems ten times more important?

this ISIL thing reminds me alot of Grenada.

anyway, a smart technocrat president is all PBO is.
maybe just a tenor of the times I guess: big data in pants.

[Threedifferentones]

14. I don't think this latest point is racist, but the one about the 9/11 planes...yikes!

Or, rather, I pretty much agree with Moore. The only tremendous progress Obama will be remembered for is finally breaking a long standing racial barrier. In every other way his presidency has been quite moderate, and moderates are not remembered for making great changes. That seems like a logical point to me, and it is not based on stupid stereotypes. It doesn't mean that his record doesn't matter, quite the opposite in fact: it means that the parts of his legacy that really matter have been either "meh," such as the ACA, which is better than before but still a long way from other first world nations, or downright "ARGH," such as his continuation and legalization of Bush's NSA spying and drone killings.

The point about the planes only being vulnerable because all the men on them were white is really quite racist OTOH. So, since Moore definitely has said racist things in the past, maybe I'm being too generous in my interpretation of the other argument...

[geek tragedy]

19. Let's put it this way: will Obama be remembered for Obamacare?

Regardless of whether someone thinks that it's mediocre policy that leaves a lot to be desire, it takes an almost willful misreading of history to say that Obama won't be remembered for the most contentious and litigated piece of legislation of the past quarter-century, which has been branded with his name.

There are a lot of things where his record is susceptible to criticism. And that's how his record will be remembered.

Not prosecuting bankers and torturers is part of his record. Drones and increased targeted attacks overseas are part of his record.

Having a flawed record is not the same as having nothing but his skin color associated with his name.

[pnwmom]

43. Our economy was losing 400K jobs per month when Obama took office.

Why does he get no credit for leading us out of the greatest financial crisis since the Depression -- against the opposition of the do-nothing Rethugs in Congress?

[brush]

79. What is it with the Obama-no-accomplishments-but-first-black meme?

The ACA, a major accomplishment, is ground-breaking law and the most significant piece of progressive, social legislation since the days of LBJ and FDR — even though it's not single payer.

Alleged progressives on this board should acknowledge that — many here downplay it or don't even mention it even though it has insured many previously uninsured and saved many lives.

Criticize him for what you don't think he got done policy-wise, not skin-wise, but do acknowledge what he did get done.

And btw, Lily Ledbetter anyone, and getting us from losing hundreds of thousands of jobs a month to creating two hundred thousand a month?

Too many faux noise-like omissions here. What's up DU?

[Capt. Obvious]

16. You and a few others are making that claim

and making it because he criticized Obama.

Same shit different person.

[Cad Bane]

20. Most of Obama's haters are fine with a certain level of racism.

Many of them even defended Cornel West for the hateful shit he said.

Moore was just reinforcing the goal of Republicans and Obama haters on the left from the beginning.

If you don't discuss any of the positive things he's done and you shout down anyone who tries to do so, then you can reduce his value to just a black man in the whitehouse.

It's a perfect way to insure that he gets low support from white folks.

[Rex]

21. What he said was stupid, Obama will be remembered as a great POTUS.

Not the first time MM has said something stupid.

[geek tragedy]

28. I disagree with him on the substance--certainly I think when his full 8 years

are up and you compare the unemployment rate and state of the federal budget/debt and certainly foreign policy, it'll be remarkable how we dug out of the hole Bush put us in.

But, even if one disagrees, I think there are good and then there are out of bounds ways of articulating that criticism.

If people want to talk about the failure to prosecute bankers and torturers, that's certainly a legit thing to bring up, for example.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Ask 99% of Straight America what Harvey Milk did, they will say 'first elected openly gay man'.

They will not know nor will they mention the issues and accomplishments of his life. They do not mention the Briggs Amendment fight, which was a major piece of history. They do not mention his activism around poverty, homeless youth, marijuana, voting rights. They say 'First Gay'. And that is all they say.
That might be wrong, it might be right but it is in fact the way it is. Harvey did lots of things. But he will be and already is remembered by most simply as 'the fist gay man to win an election'.

Perhaps that is the case simply because of the raging and total homophobia that consumes straight culture? Or perhaps that's just the way it is for those who break a glass ceiling? To be the first is a great thing and a hard act to top.

[geek tragedy]

44. I remember him as a hero.

To use your example:

There are two ways one could characterize it:

1) People will remember Harvey Milk as "first elected openly gay man" because of some combination of homophobia and overall ignorance of his record (I believe this is what you are saying); and

2) People will remember Harvey Milk as "first elected openly gay man" because he didn't do anything else worth remembering. He was gay, and that's it. That's it."

(2) is the Moore argument.

[Bluenorthwest]

50. Characterization is an editorial act. It is not the same as comprehension of content.

It takes far less than 100 years for history to reduce greatness to a catch phrase.

[geek tragedy]

53. true. point i was making is when a person makes a claim about future perceptions

of a person's record, to varying degrees there are embedded assumptions about whether the perception being predicted will be accurate or not

[MADem]

90. Moore's comments were not painting Obama as an heroic first. They were insulting, dismissive,

and racist. Harvey Milk was the first openly gay man AND.... AND, you say? Ask Sean Penn who starred in the film about his life. There's your AND. He was a martyr, in essence, as a consequence of his assassination, too.

As far as Moore is concerned, Obama was the first black POTUS, period, paragraph, end of essay.

The guy is tone deaf. Maybe he needed the advice of that wife he just left, or something, to prevent himself from saying stupid, racist things like this.

[Number23]

134. Exactly. Thank you, MADem. And the reaction from the miniscule number of black posters that still

bother to post here to Moore's comments underscore your point and not that of the poster to whom you are responding.

[MADem]

139. I don't think Michael Moore would like to be reduced to a single physical characteristic.

Wonder why he feels so free to do just that to POTUS?

[Rex]

60. Everyone says stupid shit, rich or poor...famous or not so famous.

He does that on occasion and there are people here that cannot wait to pounce on him for it.

[geek tragedy]

63. the cycle of detractors and cheerleaders forms kind of a dual orbit here

with both Obama and Moore having both in large numbers here.

Public figure does/says something stupid, antagonists criticize, fanpeople defend and attack the motives of the antagonists, antagonists say nasty things about fanpeople, and away we go.

[Rex]

69. True, we have a lot of fanpeople here and when one of their idols gets dissed

the rest of us read all about it between the detractors and fanboy/girls.

You know DU very well.

[belltower]

93. ISIL & Syria will gobble up the rest of his time

Sadly, his speech last night ended domestic policy initiatives
so his 8 years is OVER as of now, September 11th, 2014.
Time to move forward, as this man runs in-place.
He had his chance, and he fucking blew it, damn it DAMN IT
I had hope, but no longer, that he can foster structural change
His patrons simply have too much on him I guess

[geek tragedy]

95. your concern is touching, please note that his presidency has been declared 'over'

so many times, that such declarations prompt the rolling of eyes

[Cha]

22. I'm criticizing Michael Moore for his willful ignorance and his racism.. he does this because he

knows his fans out there will lap it up and ask for more.

His 9/11 rant is despicable.

[YoungDemCA]

25. Not only is that a ridiculous speculative claim on Moore's part

It's also quite offensive.

[MohRokTah]

45. THANK YOU!

Finally, somebody gets it.

[JoePhilly]

46. Hey Michael: Fat, Racist, and Wrong is no way to go through life son.

[randome]

52. Calling him fat? Well, that's...that's...pretty much equivalent to what he said about Obama.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[JoePhilly]

55. Hey ... Some of my best friends are fat!

(Actually, so is the guy I see in the mirror)

[MADem]

138. Yep. Being reduced to a single physical characteristic is ... what's the word? ...Dehumanizing!!!

Moore should know better, but he apparently doesn't.

[Union Scribe]

57. Moore's comment was wrong, but this onslaught

by DU's Character Assassin Guild is far less excusable.

[geek tragedy]

61. Why was it wrong? nt

[Union Scribe]

65. Because Obama will be remembered for many things.

It will be a mixed record of course. His comment was not wrong because it was "racist" since Moore was acknowledging the historic nature of being the first black president regardless of his total disappointment with Obama's other actions. I think we've seen this play a few too many times on DU for it to be effective any longer, sorry.

[geek tragedy]

67. maybe I should put it this way: why bring Obama's skin pigment into a discussion of policy?

if Moore believes he's going to have a record of not accomplishing enough, why not just say that?

One can call him a corporate tool, a drone-loving war criminal, a liar, an enemy of working people, or just a mediocre president without invoking his race.

I don't think Moore consciously believes blacks are inferior or anything like that, but this kind of critique--marginalizing based on skin pigment--is a form of privilege invoking. It's not terribly far removed from the "Affirmative Action President' commentary.

[Union Scribe]

80. Isn't becoming the first black president

an accomplishment? He's given him that as a notable historic achievement. He isn't convinced there's anything else Obama accomplished that is historic. That can certainly be argued and I already said I think he's wrong, but not every mention of race is racist.

[geek tragedy]

123. becoming president is an accomplishment, but it's not an accomplishment as president.

maybe Moore thought he was being complimentary, but in general it's just a really bad idea for white people to reference a black person's race when criticizing that person.

as an aside, I think more impressive than winning as a black man was being the only Democrat to win over 50% of the vote twice other than FDR and Andrew Jackson.

[stupidicus]

77. indeed

it seems to me that the corrolary to their "must be haters/racists" for the critique crowd would be their designation as blind and irrational BHO-worshippers at the very least, who are perhaps largely motivated by white guilt -- just to keep the poles balanced and lines connecting them untilted in their polarized, either/or world.

WHat's most striking about this to me is that they are attempting to do with Moore what they falsely accuse us BHO detractors of -- overlooking his long and storied record of public service in what are undeniably and presumably "our" causes, which now all take a back seat to his alleged "racism". There is of course the important distinction that most BHO critics have far more to go on that one simple statement of opinion as MM's was.

The ease with which so many have now proposed and accepted that MM must necessarily be a racist based on that comment alone establishes a prime facie case for that proposed above imo. They may well establish his guilt in this court of public opinion amongst their peers/those of like mind, but it's highly questionable that they'd prevail in a court of law iffin he hypotheitically pursued a defamation suit over the charge. The best affirmative defense in such matters, the truth, isn't on their side using a preponderance of the evidence standard, is it?

It seems to me that all they're accomplishing with this effort is validating/using the same illogic rightwingers tried to make hay out of with Biden's comments.

[riqster]

59. Well put. Thanks.

[beerandjesus]

62. Up is down, black is white, war is peace.

Michael Moore was criticizing Obama for policy reasons. YOU decided that the only reason he might possibly do that is racism.

You're acting like a right-wing parody of a liberal: If you criticize the President, you must be a racist. It makes me sick to see you playing into their evil, destructive meme with such enthusiasm.


You know, a lot of us actually voted for Obama twice, but still have criticisms we feel are well-founded. Can't you just go back to calling us "professional leftists", "Paulbots", or even, God forbid, "people with ODS"? Do you have to call us racists now, too?

[geek tragedy]

64. probably should actually read the post before commenting on it.

you're ignoring just a teeny-tiny little fact--that Moore was the one who used the president's race to frame an attack on him.

doesn't really matter at that point whether the criticism is based on bullshit or the holy gospel, once you start dragging a person's race into criticisms against them, you've crossed a line.

sorry you cannot understand this

[G_j]

111. I don't see that he used race to "frame an attack"

You are really reaching there. And I think that sort of extrapolation obscures what real racism is.

[geek tragedy]

113. how is the president's race relevant to a discussion of his actions in office?

answer, of course, is that it is not relevant.

question is why did Moore reach for that angle when making his criticisms.

[G_j]

121. he never connected the two

you did.

[geek tragedy]

124. you are confused, I fear

When the history is written of this era, this is how you’ll be remembered: he was the first black president.
OK, not a bad accomplishment, but that’s it. That’s it, Mr. Obama. One hundred years from now, ‘He was the first black American that got elected president,’ and that’s it. Eight years of your life and that’s what people are going to remember.

there is Moore, lecturing the president that the only thing people will remember about his record in office is his skin pigment.


it's ugly and offensive

[G_j]

132. not confused

very far from it. You are determined that everyone share your personal interpretation of his remarks.

[beerandjesus]

119. Thanks for the condescension.

Not taking any more bait though. You go right on thinking about how much smarter you are than all of us liberal "fucking retards".

[geek tragedy]

120. thanks for your thoughtful, constructive contributions to the discussion nt

[gordianot]

70. There does seem to be an automatic dismissal of President Obama by many people.

To quote my barber in reference to statements by a customer "So if Obama is for it your against it?" to which the customer answered yes. The next statement took me by surprise the barber stated sorry no one should be judged by skin color. The shop was full and with the exception of the person in the chair and one other customer all were in agreement. Now were there still racist views in that shop most certainly. Mr. Moore obviously has some issues, one can only speculate.

[NorthCarolina]

71. Good luck trying to sell that meme.

[CakeGrrl]

75. Paraphrased: 'The only thing memorable about this POTUS is his skin color'

The simpleton MADE it about race and was boneheadedly, deliberately ignorant of everything else.

Guess he didn't benefit from the Lilly Ledbetter Act. No skin in the game for him there.
Repeal of DOMA/DADT? Benefits for same sex couples? Nothing to be noted for.
Pulling economic indicators from the toilet? Lalalalala, he can't hear you.


Moore is a whiny jackass.

[brush]

86. Good post, CakeGrrl. nt

[Dawgs]

99. Jesus Christ. No one will remember Obama for Lily Ledbetter, DADT, or the economy in 100 years.

They will remember him as being the first black president.

That's ALL MM was saying.

He WASN'T saying that those things you listed aren't accomplishments or that people weren't affected by them. He said they won't be remembered in 100 years.

[CakeGrrl]

126. Really?

How about Osama bin Laden? Not enough to bother remembering?

Is Bill Clinton in the same boat? Is impeachment the most notable aspect of HIS presidency?

I maintain MM feels the POTUS should be ashamed of and disappointed in his Presidency. I understood what I read.

So for that, MM can go fuck off.

[840high]

82. I don't think he's a racist.

[geek tragedy]

85. almost everyone is at least a little racist. main differential is self-awareness

but no, he's not someone who believes in discrimination or views African-Americans as inferior, as far as I can tell

[MADem]

87. YES. His comment was racist. He should be ashamed of himself, but he probably isn't.

He doesn't have the gift of introspection that he demands of others.

This was a major "Open Mouth, Insert Foot" moment--and I am stunned at how many people not only leapt to his defense, but eagerly tried to shut up anyone with a different POV.

His POV is offensive as hell, and anyone who doesn't "get" that has some of that introspection to do as well.

[geek tragedy]

101. He does have introspection, but only in retrospect.

He has a long history of saying stupid shit, then being like "oops, here's what I really meant" with an explanation that sounds like his IQ has gone up by 30 points.

[Dawgs]

100. I don't think you know what racism means. n/t

[Cha]

135. Maybe it's you who doesn't know what racism means.

[Behind the Aegis]

102. For some, unless the racism comes in the form of "that word", it isn't really racism.

"Michelle Obama is pretty for a black girl."

Many would see the above statement and not think there is anything wrong with it; that it is actually a compliment. It is wrong on two levels, the first being that Ms. Obama is not a girl she is a woman; and two, the qualifier "for a" suggests her attractiveness is unusual for black women. It is this type of "soft racism" which usually gets a pass, ignored, or even defended, but it is just as malicious and hurtful as the "in your face" racism is.

A few, inevitably, try to make every criticism of the president, or many criticisms, about race, but they are rare. However, on the flip-side, which is not as rare, we have those who ignore racism and try to "pre-emptively" deflect it by claiming "oh, so-and-so always tries to make criticism about the president into some act of racism." Worse yet, are those who mock racism by changing the subject to something other than racism, "racism" against whites (i.e. "blacks do it too&quot , use sarcasm in a way to diminish the charge of racism, or flat out defend it.

Sadly, this is a not just a problem on the right.

[geek tragedy]

103. +1. nt

[sheshe2]

127. Thank you, BtA. nt

[Cha]

129. Exactly.. they wouldn't know "racism" if it stared back at them in the mirror.. mahalo, BtA~

[abelenkpe]

114. Recently purchased flash cards for my kids that cover all of the US presidents

Under Facts and Achievements for President Obama it lists in order:

1. First African-American President
2. President of Harvard Law Review
3. US senator from Illinois
4. Won audio-book Grammy Awards for his books Dreams from My Father and The Audacity of Hope
5. Won 2009 Nobel Peace Prize for efforts to strengthen international diplomacy

Should I toss them as racist? Is it institutional bigotry to list that first and foremost similar to obituaries of noteworthy women that comment on their marital status and motherhood before mentioning any of their other accomplishments? None of the other presidents are noted as being white under facts and achievements although some mention their religion...

[geek tragedy]

117. No, if the card listed these as his accomplishments:

1) has black skin
2) that's it, sorry

then it would be racist

[abelenkpe]

118. K, still might look for some other ones though. nt

[Cha]

130. Exactly, geek!

[joshcryer]

143. Pretty much.

https://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/509831618132185089

[Cha]

131. Michael Moore's racism.. I want this for my journal, geek.. "God save us from such stupid men.."

06 January 2003

"I took my son to see Michael Moore live at the Roundhouse, in north London, before Christmas. The US radical and author of the best-selling book Stupid White Men was (mostly) clever, funny, angry, sharp, iconoclastic and sceptical about the lies and humbug processed by the US government and big business. Sure there were some flunked bits – you expect that, the troughs are part of the adventure, an evening with a well-worn rebel."

"What we did not expect was to feel so enraged at one point that we almost walked out. It was when Moore went into a rant about how the passengers on the planes on 11 September were scaredy-cats because they were mostly white. If the passengers had included black men, he claimed, those killers, with their puny bodies and unimpressive small knives, would have been crushed by the dudes, who as we all know take no disrespect from anybody. God save us from such stupid white men, especially now, when in the US and the UK, black people's lives are being ripped to shreds by drugs, lawlessness, fear and frightful violence plus the endless circle of racism, exclusion and incarceration. This is not awesome, Mr Moore; it is a calamity, for descendants of slaves unimaginably more so"

https://web.archive.org/web/20030206101644/http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=366725

[Cha]

133. K

[joshcryer]

136. His tweet doubling down is highly offensive to me.

https://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/509831618132185089

Fuck this. Fuck it all. Fuck.

[Behind the Aegis]

140. Soft racism on display.

Will Obama be remembered as the first Black president? Of course, because he is. But to claim his ONLY accomplishment is "being black" is racist crap! Want to see more soft racism?

"He won't be remembered in the way FDR, Lincoln, and Kennedy were."

Oh, so the "black" president doesn't measure up to the "standard" (wink, wink), therefore, the only thing he has going for him...skin color.

But you are just reacting to the MSM, a puppet, not a real liberal, and some other shit I can't remember at this point, and throwing poor, put-upon Michael Moore under the bus! Of course, if MM wasn't under the bus, at least he knows he could still sit at the front of the bus. Look at me, making a comment about the racist treatment of blacks in this country, when MM's comments were nothing but "truthtopower" criticism.

[joshcryer]

141. I tweeted to him.

This is a really low blow for Moore to be making. A really low blow. He could've easily softened his open and ad hoc statements at the festival. He could've said "it was inartful." But, no, he doubled down. I have lost all respect for him now.

The biggest thing about Obama, as a black president, is that, in fact, he doesn't get credit for anything good he does, only the presentably negative things (TPP comes to mind, which he has almost no control over its negotiation; the USTR does that, he could demand open transparency but the TPP by its nature denies that, and Obama, being a reasonable person, would accept that).

[Behind the Aegis]

144. Good for you.

I don't tweet, so I won't tweet him, but I did see at least one "tweeter" (is that the right term?) who called him out.

The biggest thing about Obama, as a black president, is that, in fact, he doesn't get credit for anything good he does, only the presentably negative things

Yes, it isn't white....ooops, I mean "right" that he gets held to a different standard in many cases. Most of the time, it comes from the right-wing, so it is really fucking disappointing when it is from the so-called left. I am not talking about criticism, I am talking about "criticism laced with racism." I have been disappointed by Obama many times, and found some of his actions/comments to be wrong or milquetoast, but I don't ever feel the need to reduce him to his skin color.

I can't say I am surprised by many of the comments or the commenters.

[joshcryer]

146. Here's my tweet:

https://twitter.com/joshcryer/status/510337405833191424

It's not showing up in his "feed" because either I don't know how twitter works or he blocked replies showing up in his list.

I used the word "presentably" there loosely, btw, because 95% of the shit Obama gets shit on for are things that actually didn't happen or happened under his watch or just realpolitik. He offers up SS cuts, as per his own campaign promise, that means he's actually, literally, cutting SS (nevermind the poverty exemptions which would've brought millions of seniors out of poverty; ie, it was never going to pass in a teaparty controlled house).

I'd say 99% of the criticisms come from the right wing rebranded as a left wing criticism. I started to recognize this when Better Believe It was banned for using right wing sources, criticizing the ACA. It is actually sort of strange when the right wing is using left wing arguments to bolster an anti-left critique, but it never really occurred to me that it was happening until BBI did it.

Surprised, yeah, I'm in the same camp. I am completely unsurprised by the arguments at this point. In 2008-2009, yeah, it would've bothered me, but these days it's damn natural. And, I say this, having my first post on DU locked criticizing Obama's Warren pick for the inauguration. I admit I was messing around then, but let's be forthright here, Obama gets shit on for the smallest thing he actually didn't do but was said to be doing, and then more so, shit on for doing things that weren't as impactful as people desire.

[brentspeak]

151. Oh, I'm sure you are truly outraged

Is this the New Democrat meme that was dispensed today?

[RandiFan1290]

142. I still support Michael Moore

Fuck the haters! All of them!

I've never been more proud to be in the minority on this site.

[MrScorpio]

152. Pardon me for being a bit of a late comer here

But what is it about MM that you're supporting and what puts you in the minority?

[gollygee]

148. It's because of how people define "racism"

They define it as people who use the N word, people who wear white sheets and pointy white hoods, etc. They define it as "evil" and in a way that keeps them safe from having to really think about it and examine their own lives in relationship to it.

They don't like the thought that racism is bigger than that, that it's built into our society and institutions, and that it's impossible to simply escape or avoid. Michael Moore accidentally saying something racist doesn't mean he is evil or akin to a KKK member. It means he's a privileged white man who didn't think. We as privileged white people need to understand that racism can speak through us without us intending for it to, that if it happens it doesn't mean we are "a racist" (I hate the word as a noun because it leads to people think of racism in this way) but just that we spoke from a place of privilege and we've been given a opportunity for learning and growth.