General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMeet the New War, Same as the Old War
President Barack Obama departs after delivering
a televised address to the nation on his plans for military
action against the Islamic State, from the Cross Hall of
the White House in Washington, Sept. 10, 2014.
(Photo: Saul Loeb / Pool via The New York Times)
Meet the New War, Same as the Old War
By William Rivers Pitt
Truthout | Op-Ed
Thursday 11 September 2014
On the night before the thirteenth anniversary of the September 11 attacks, President Obama delivered a prime-time press conference to discuss the new war in Iraq, which is really the old war, as it never actually ended. It dropped from the headlines here in the US a few years ago, except for an occasional heinous act that got brief ink - a marketplace massacre that killed 150, or a mosque bombing that killed 80 would get some ink and then fade - but people have been dying in Iraq every single day since we stuck our booted toe into their sand eighteen months after the Towers came down.
(snip)
So maybe I'm wrong, and the Wednesday night words of the president will prove prescient, and everything will work out fine...except, by my calculations, every time we drop bombs on a problem that was caused by us dropping bombs, we wind up dropping more bombs to try and solve it, and nothing ever gets fixed, but some people get paid, so the impetus to drop more bombs on the bombs we already dropped increases by order of magnitude, especially when we get the ratings-happy "news" media involved in the show.
There is some controversy over who actually said this, but the line is generally attributed to Albert Einstein. "The definition of insanity," goes the quote, "is doing something over and over again and expecting a different result." Whoever actually said it should be awarded the Nobel Prize, just like the president.
It has been thirteen years since the attacks of September 11, and this nation has spent every one of the 4,745 days between that morning and today in the grips of a media and politics and money-driven high panic. Millions upon millions have been killed, maimed, displaced or bankrupted in the process. ISISISILIS are bad guys, and no mistake, but there are a pile of nations on this planet besides us with standing armies, many of them with a far more vested personal interest in eradicating these lunatics than us. Their militaries are not exhausted like ours is.
"Our endless blessings bestow an enduring burden," said President Obama on Wednesday night, "but as Americans, we welcome our responsibility to lead."
Who is this "we," sir? You got a mouse in your pocket? I can only imagine the comforts that come with living in the White House, but for an enormous swath of the country you lead, the "blessings" you speak of turned to ashes in our mouths a long time ago. The money we are going to spend bombing the problems we caused by bombing the problems we bombed can be better spent creating jobs, repairing infrastructure, and educating our children to know better when a politician comes calling with platitudes about the excellence of the United States before announcing his intention to blow more stuff up.
We were excellent, I suppose. We certainly can be. It has been twenty-four years of this, with the twenty-five years of Vietnam still receding in the rear-view. Imagine if we had those 50 years back, and then imagine what we could do with 50 years unencumbered by profiteering warfare.
Maybe I'm wrong. Enjoy your new war, which is the old war. I'm sure it will all work out just fine.
The rest: http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/26113-william-rivers-pitt-meet-the-new-war-same-as-the-old-war
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)octoberlib
(14,971 posts)LiberalLoner
(9,761 posts)alterfurz
(2,473 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY.""
--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials
Please, end teh stupid.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)Hero worship, people to lazy or uniformed unable to form their own ideas? Critical thinking was one of the pillars for educators from my generation.
hueymahl
(2,482 posts)cilla4progress
(24,725 posts)Both the candidates in your tag line are nobility, ie, scions of political fathers.
That's how it's done in this great democracy. Just like the aristocracy we fled from...England.
Good candidates both, in any case.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Thank you for cutting through the bullshit and the propaganda clearly and powerfully,
...as many times as necessary.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)marmar
(77,067 posts)Except now it has enthusiastic DU boosters!
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)is not a principled stand, but simply a convenient tool to use against one's political opponents. Thus, when the opponents are not in the White House wars of choice are perfectly acceptable.
suffragette
(12,232 posts)blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)Response to blkmusclmachine (Reply #106)
blkmusclmachine This message was self-deleted by its author.
suffragette
(12,232 posts)Still won't listen.
Had hoped for more change than we got.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)and doesn't keep The List in his pocket.
rec
cali
(114,904 posts)history is pointless.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)which means we help other people fight wars and sell them weapons.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Agreed upon by the Appropriate Corporate Interests: the the recently revealed "Foreign Funded" U.S. Think Tanks, the MIC, Wall Street, Israel and the Oil and Mineral Rights Conglomerates seeking access.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)but maybe not the feet in the boots, which it was said, were from other 'allied' nations, like Qatar. Some of us spotted those feet among the 'protesters' and began to doubt the 'humanitarian' bombing which killed untold numbers of innocents. The country is now a failed state, like Iraq and Afghanistan, with brutality a way of life for millions of innocents who used to live in a pretty decent place.
Someone else once said that 'money is the root of all evil'.
I wonder if there is any way to make Peace profitable?
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)to make peace profitable.
It's a big world out there with plenty of potential consumers.
It's more about control and keeping other countries down and keeping the middle class down.
If you remember the Clinton era, it was relatively peaceful and prosperous.
But the neocons don't want that.
They don't want the middle class to feel comfortable and enjoy freedom.
They might become morally shallow and start to think for themselves.
(These thoughts are somewhat influenced by the documentary "The Power of Nightmares" .
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)If we could rid ourselves of corporate thinking and corporate definitions. Peace is infinitely more profitable to human beings than war, in the most important senses of the word.
We live in a sick corporate Matrix now.
H.R. 400 (110th): War Profiteering Prevention Act of 2007
Introduced:
Jan 11, 2007 (110th Congress, 20072009)
Status:
Died (Passed House) in a previous session of Congress
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)why there were no laws preventing profiteering from war.
Maybe it's time to introduce it again, and again and again until it passes.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Since ancient times war has been about getting someone else's land, water and gold. All that nationalism rhetoric is to convince the foot soldiers and other cannon fodder to give up their lives for God, Country and King so the upper classes can enjoy a luxurious life style.
Maybe that should be our next effort. Pass laws making it a crime to profit from war. If the penalties to pay are very stiff and dire, you might find a sudden big lack of interest from the MIC to engage in any but the most necessary of wars of defense.
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Can't bring Saddam back. For that matter we can't undo what the UK did to the region. To say we fucked up is to lose face ...like a Mafia don would say.
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)... what could possibly go wrong?
All our military adventures since WWII have ended up with clear-cut victories over evil. We've spread democracy, freedom, and justice. Our spotless record of defending human rights throughout the world has earned us the praise of everyone. What could possibly go wrong with a bombing campaign against a few extremists? It can't possibly draw us into a larger war. It can't possibly earn us the enmity of anybody. We can bomb our way to peace, just as we have in the past.
Do I even need to add the icon..?
The Wizard
(12,541 posts)you gotta have war."
(George W. Bush)
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... because we have a hoard of DUers who sound just like that right now.
hueymahl
(2,482 posts)I did respond to your thoughts on that post, BTW.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
riqster
(13,986 posts)Criticizing PBO for not acting like Bush seems specious, to say the very least.
cali
(114,904 posts)but continue with your rah rah war and bombs and money line.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)I'll wait.
riqster
(13,986 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)riqster
(13,986 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the Intel Warnings. I just read that we are NOT in any danger from ISIS, from two members of this administration. So why are we going back to war again??
riqster
(13,986 posts)Which those administration members also said.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)You said that, and I'm sure so did they, with a straight face.
And who benefits from those 'assets'? I don't recall meeting a single person who benefited from any of our wars, quite the contrary actually.
So, what are these assets a few people will profit from? And did you mean to be sarcastic?
roody
(10,849 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)taking actions. But those actions were not declaring war. There was a lot of actions that would have prevented the disaster short of war.
riqster
(13,986 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)humbled_opinion
(4,423 posts)Bush was President for 6 months pre-911 to your point castigation of Bill Clinton on the issue would have been more appropriate. However, for those of us that were truly against war for wars sake, I say Obama is channeling his inner Cheney at the moment, I believe in his speech he even used a "with us or against us" type of line.... Oh Well, sign the petition to demand Obama return the Nobel Peace Prize or the idea behind the prize is worthless...
riqster
(13,986 posts)Martin Eden
(12,863 posts)For what lack of action do you think we have castigated Bush for "doing nothing until after 9/11"?
Your conflation with criticism of PBO is built on the assumption the action Bush failed to take before 9/11 involved bombing other countries.
Totally specious on your part.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)the WMD lie was what functioned them.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Or the government in general.
Welcome to America.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)There was no question about what OBL's goals were.
Here, IS is not a threat to the US, Obama told us they are not planning to hit us. Try are a regional group.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)We know you did!
locks
(2,012 posts)If only we were as excellent at leading toward peace as we are at starting or continuing wars. We could truly be an exceptional nation.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)
Post removed
marmar
(77,067 posts)Jesus, Mary & Joseph. ...... The shark has been jumped. Along with the whale and the elephant seal.
Response to marmar (Reply #26)
MohRokTah This message was self-deleted by its author.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the admins would stop letting repeats back on this site, they just say the same old boring crap and eventually get PPRd for the same old trolling crap.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)Captures our personal reaction to watching the Speech last night....
yurbud
(39,405 posts)raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Autumn
(45,042 posts)War is our new normal.
Moostache
(9,895 posts)We are a pathetic species on whole - capable of the sublime, mired in the ridiculous. There has NEVER been a truly time of "peace" in recorded history, and in fact nearly non-stop warfare has raged since the earliest recorded history.
If you simply start with the Greeks (or take the Egyptians if you wish...as an arbitrary starting point, because the same is true throughout history), civilization has been sustained by and supported warfare in general.
There is an unbroken chain of violence and wickedness that stretches from before Alexander the Great all the way to beyond George the Lesser. Invasions, civil wars, wars of independence, crusades, kings fighting against kings using the children of surfs to nations fighting against nations using the children of the poor and the economically destitute. Wars for "freedom" (War of Independence) and wars for slavery (US Civil War). Wars for revenge. Wars for oil. Wars on drugs. Wars for drugs. Lip service wars on poverty. Wars for diamonds. Wars for coffee, tea and cocoa. Wars for land. Wars for water. Wars as games. Star Wars. War footing. War drums. Marches to war.
Over and over and over and over again...
War IS humanity.
We are incapable of NOT having it going at all times.
If there were two humans left on the planet, they would fight and after killing the other, the winner would start looking askew at his own relflections.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)Succinct, accurate.
green917
(442 posts)We humans are base and petty creatures that know no other state than that of conflict! Eloquently stated and, sadly, true.
Rex
(65,616 posts)The PTB pretend like THIS is war and is special, yet we are always fighting in some war around the globe. America is the War Nation, anyone blind to that doesn't really pay any attention at all to modern American history.
Autumn
(45,042 posts)ReRe
(10,597 posts)... people just can't get used to life in an EMPIRE.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)advisors, war mongers and those who have been bought and sold so many times before. I cringe every time anyone blurts out the claim of American exceptionalism. We are at the mercy of used car salesmen. There is nothing exceptional about buying that piece of junk.
"Our endless blessings bestow an enduring burden," said President Obama on Wednesday night, "but as Americans, we welcome our responsibility to lead."
Who is this "we," sir? You got a mouse in your pocket? I can only imagine the comforts that come with living in the White House, but for an enormous swath of the country you lead, the "blessings" you speak of turned to ashes in our mouths a long time ago. The money we are going to spend bombing the problems we caused by bombing the problems we bombed can be better spent creating jobs, repairing infrastructure, and educating our children to know better when a politician comes calling with platitudes about the excellence of the United States before announcing his intention to blow more stuff up.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Ah, good old paternalistic 'White man's burden', used by Britain and the US to justify colonialism and neocolonialism for centuries. It doesn't sound any better now than it ever did.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)Nothing? Well, ISIS is ethnically cleansing the areas it is conquering. Doing nothing means they keep slaughtering.
This is a situation where there is no good solution. This situation is the primary reason Cheney and his team of morons should not have invaded Iraq. But they did.
We're left with the mess they created. We can ignore it, and many thousands die. Or we can try to help clean it up....and fewer thousands die.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)and that is to stop arming those we eventually bomb.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Many, many more thousands died from our intervention in Iraq,
and Libya looks to be following the same pattern.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)How about just talking to those Dems who did not vote for the Iraq War Resolution?
How about everyone who did not want to bomb Syria a year ago?
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Of course, we are assured that this time will be different.
The Wizard
(12,541 posts)who took office under unusual circumstances got us into a war predicated on lies?
yurbud
(39,405 posts)he has on running his drone assassination program, letting Wall Street pick their regulators, and prosecuting whistleblowers, he would be at LEAST as good a president as LBJ.
world wide wally
(21,740 posts)pretty obvious that this is exactly what ISIS wanted us to do (not to mention the Neo-cons). Thom Hartman read an excerpt from Osama Bin Laden last week that said something to the effect of, "all we have to do is send someone to the farthest corner of the Earth and have him wave an Al Queada flag, and the US will send thousands of troops and billions of dollars to go get him."
Of course we can't allow these assholes to go around executing Americans for the sake of making videos, but playing this game of cat and mouse on their terms is foolish. I am sure we can all suggest better strategies of dealing with this, but I am afraid that once again, Obama has caved to pressure from the right to "just bomb somebody already!"
He sells us, as well as himself, short by doing this. Obama does his best when he actually thinks for himself.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)But Obama is doing it, so it must be needed. So lets hear it for another open ended war with a vague mission statement and no real measurable objectives. Hoo fuckin ray
totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)I know I am. But at the same time I blame shrub for getting us into this mess in the first place. But having said that, I voted for Obama because I thought he would get us out of Bush's mess, not contribute to it.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I wouldn't mind if you simply said you disagreed with the reasons for going to war and here (x, y, z) are the reasons why.
But saying this is the same as the 2003 Iraq war is so obviously wrong and the implications so nasty (Obama making same decisions as G.W. Bush) that it needs to be pointed out.
Iraq in 2003 was a state that was not threatening anyone and was complying with every request from the US and international community.
Comparing that with ISIS and saying "oh, they're the same" is the kind of sorry, pathetic analysis I would expect from a Sarah Palin or Michele Bachmann.
GusBob
(7,286 posts)Its in there somewhere between "another viet nam" "I told you so" and, 'going back in time and changing the course of history.'
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)daleanime
(17,796 posts)grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)littlemissmartypants
(22,629 posts)"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)Nothing to add, you've said it all.
randome
(34,845 posts)Obama is not the same as Bush. His policies are not the same as Bush's. Going after ISIS is not the same as invading a peaceful country.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
BobbyBoring
(1,965 posts)With this coalition "We're" forming. We will need boots on the ground and their boots are pretty close to the enemy. Their proximity to Syria should be a motivating factor.
They've been in fighting mode lately so BHO should get his buddy Bebe on the horn and get something for our $!
shireen
(8,333 posts)kindness. If we really want to win hearts and minds, we should help people help themselves. When people have some level of prosperity, they have hope. Where there is hope, militants become irrelevant.
I agree that we need to fix the terrible problems at home. But I think that a good chunk of the defense department budget could also be used helping impoverished countries.
People are weary of war. They WILL respond to kindness, peace, and hope. They will respond to a better future for their children.
I guess many will find my words naive and silly. But that's what I want for us all. Peace. Kindness. Good health. I want a world where we can rise above what's worst of humanity and become what makes us wonderful.
Nice OP, Mr. Pitt. Thank you.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)He tried the kindness approach by establishing the Peace Corps and the Alliance for Progress.
Docross
(39 posts)It will take the best minds in the world to fix this. Thank God our President is one of them. As for enemies; maybe we should consider this like an 'alien invasion'. Forget being former enemies... we have to get together and stop them!
I think it's much worse than we are led to believe. The President is doing everything he can to let us 'not panic'. The world is too intertwined, what happens over there, affects us HERE...oil, economies, WMD's. They don't HAVE to come here to hurt us.
Has anyone realized that they are getting very close to Israel? And we know what they think of them. THAT would be a worldwide catastrophe. THAT would be Total WAR!
This ISIS group is made up of mostly Sunni's (who WERE the majority in Iraq before the war) ..millions of which were pushed out of their country. The 200,000'collateral damage -killed, probably making each one of these ISIS people, relatives of theirs...Mothers, children, wives. How callus we were. If these people were blonde, named "Johnny" and wearing Nike's.. we'd be out of our minds with RAGE. (The same with the Palestinians. Our shame.) And we gave the country to the extremely revengeful Shi'ites. What did we think would happen. Turmoil in Syria, weapons available - there you go. And these people don't mind dying. They're promised immediate access to heaven.
Lord knows what weapons they now have in their possesion, including missiles. They have Generals and military from the former Iraq Army leading them. The thing is - they have nothing to lose. They've already lost it.
The good news - we have weapons that no one knows about, not just drones and surveillance. If President Obama can fix this (and he's the only one who possibly could)i in 20 years he'll be the ALL TIME HERO of the world. I know, we don't trust anyone anymore, constant feed from our idiot media and Republicans, but -- we don't have a choice.
Just have to sit out here in our computer chairs..kabitzing about - what WE"d do.
hueymahl
(2,482 posts)Oh lord, the Sky is falling!
Fool me once (or ten times, more like it), shame on you. Won't be fooled again.
Sorry, but your post is strait out of the Neocon playbook.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)Norm Guy
(13 posts)And the Middle Eastern images in the video are positively eerie.
lark
(23,083 posts)You put my thoughts onto paper much better than I could. I totally agree with every word you said, except the part about this coming out fine. We both know we are just creating new bombing situations. The world is not with us at all, they know this is just more American adverturism and as you elegantly stated profit opportunities.
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)From the entire article...
but here's a pro tip: "smart" bombs are not smart. They require troops on the ground to lase the intended targets, so the guidance systems on the bombs can find them. President Obama himself said on Wednesday night that some 150 airstrikes had been carried out against ISIS, ISIL or IS, whatever you want to call them. One assumes the US Special Forces troops hiding in a bush with the laser guidance apparatus wore boots while they augured the munitions in.
I'm not a weapons expert or anything close, but I believe what you're referring to is old technology.
"The preeminent smart-bomb technology of the day is Boeing's JDAM, which stands for Joint Direct Attack Munition... The JDAM "tail kit" includes adjustable tail fins, a control computer, an inertial guidance system and a GPS receiver. Both the GPS receiver and the inertial guidance system allow the bomb to locate itself in space. The GPS receiver figures out its position by interpreting GPS satellite signals while the inertial guidance system monitors the bomb's movements, tracking its path from its launch position...
This system works fine even in bad weather, because the JDAM gets all its information from satellite signals, which aren't blocked by cloud cover or obstacles. The bomb doesn't have to see anything at all to find its way to the target. "
http://science.howstuffworks.com/smart-bomb2.htm
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)And:
I know there are already American boots on the ground where I am now, Engel told MSNBC, adding, They are troops who are staying away from reporters, they are embedded with local fighters trying to guide in air strikes, gathering intelligence the kind of thing you would have thought the Green Berets would have done many years ago, and which are now being done by Navy SEALS and Delta Force and other Special Operations Forces.
Right there on live TV last night.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)kentuck
(111,076 posts)Even the hardest stone is soon wore down.
With the media and the politicians and the MIC constantly pushing for war, it was just a matter of time before the President wore down and agreed that war was the only solution.
No doubt they are a threat to Americans that are in Iraq and Syria. Whether they are a threat to Americans living in America is still open to question?
It seems to me that we lose if we win.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)Not your post which is good as usual but odd back drops or subliminals in the photos of this speech.
1. the microphones.......look like tiny darth vader type entities...
2. the back drop, who picked that?
I've only seen pictures and so far
some weird shit. Almost like it gives him a head ornament.
3. I'm weird and I know it. but perpetual war is not my thing.
JEB
(4,748 posts)Last edited Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:06 PM - Edit history (1)
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)You have incorrectly used and misspelled the past tense third person singular conjugation of the verb "to beget." Present tense third person singular is "begets."
Your post title should read, "Blood begets blood endlessly."
It's a common error, since we don't use that verb much anymore. Just thought you'd like to know, so you could correct your error on edit.
JEB
(4,748 posts)As you say not a verb I use very often.
Paper Roses
(7,473 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Or will we?
99Forever
(14,524 posts)grntuscarora
(1,249 posts)nt
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)This time it will all be different.
[/h2][/font color=red]
I forget who first said this, but it is applicable to this week's events.
1dogleft
(164 posts)I respect that part of you
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)Really, though: Who runs Washington DC? I know there's the figure-head President, but really, what organizations are running this nation and pulling all the strings???
indepat
(20,899 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)K&R
and tweet
and email
and anything else I can do
cwydro
(51,308 posts)stage left
(2,961 posts)Against the Viet Nam War. Against the Iraq Wars. Against the Afghanistan War. Against War.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Symbolic in some way. I think he's HAD ENOUGH...
Don't know how that will work out going forward. But, if I was in his "shoes" ....might have done the same thing.
"GIVE 'EM WHAT THEY WANT".....and cut out....let it go and then figure the next step.
It's hard to know yet what to think of him and his Presidency....but, I have much empathy for him....seeing this photo.
It's BEYOND PRESIDENCY........it's at the ROOT of our AMERICAN CONSTITUTION...and the RW who Wants to Destroy it and the Enablers on the Left who try to hold it...but get caught up in the Theatrics while failing to build their OWN STRONG COUNTER CULTURE to DEFEND.
No PRESIDENT can deal with it these days after the whole thing was given away by "well meaning but influenced by Think Tank/Wallstreet/MSM/MIC beholden.....preceding Presidents in a long line of giving away the Peoples Rights vs. the Corporations and Other Interests.
WALK AWAY..........
raven mad
(4,940 posts)I still agree.
salib
(2,116 posts)He's fully stepping into it.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)Agony
(2,605 posts)Thank you, Will, for saying what needs to be said...
ReRe
(10,597 posts)cilla4progress
(24,725 posts)I don't think I will be able to forgive him. Worse, I don't think he'll be able to forgive himself.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Last edited Fri Sep 12, 2014, 03:16 PM - Edit history (1)
Well and bravely said. Thank you for your principled stand on this frightful situation.
Regarding the new/old war, somehow I doubt many here will actually "enjoy" it that much.