General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsElections have consequences. Had Al Gore been sworn in as President, in all likelihood there would
have been no attacks on the United States in September of 2001. VP Gore's warning to the incoming "mis"administration was to keep a close eye on Al-Quada, which was dismissed by the Bush/Cheney administration.
Imagine:
No war in Afghanistan.
No war in Iraq
No John Roberts
No Samuel Alito
A federal deficit $12 trillion less than it is now. (Maybe even NO deficit).
Elections have Consequences.
mucifer
(23,479 posts)gotta laugh or I would cry.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)and the brief walk on memory lane.
that was really good! Had not seen it before.
Autumn
(44,981 posts)My god what could have been. Thanks for posting that. That 2000 election sure did have consequences thanks to that disgusting supreme court.
YvonneCa
(10,117 posts)...this. Thank you for the reminder. Yes, elections do have consequences!
Brigid
(17,621 posts)Chief Justice George Clooney!
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)It made me laugh and two minutes after it was over; I feel like crying.
Al Carroll
(113 posts)He also favored the Iraq War, overthrowing Hussein, and believed there were WMDs in Iraq.
He only objected to Bush going to war in Iraq without internat'l support. Had he been pres, he would just have tried to build that support much more.
But your other points are very true.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)Yes, elections have consequences and I hope people will keep that in mind this November 4th.
bigdarryl
(13,190 posts)Gore received 500,000 more votes than Bush that election was STOLEN from Gore by those five jackasses on the court.
Autumn
(44,981 posts)what went on. Instead the Democrats remained silent.
Samantha
(9,314 posts)The announcement was scheduled to take place at 5:00 pm on the steps of the Court. The date: 9/11/2001....
Sam
Autumn
(44,981 posts)Oktober
(1,488 posts)Samantha
(9,314 posts)This was a subject discussed here at the time, and it garnered a lot of interest. After the attacks, people were still vocal about the effort but as time went on, it became apparent that it would be virtually impossible to proceed in the aftermath of 9/11.
Sam
Postscript: Vincent Bugliosi was one of the most outspoken people on this issue. I am including a link from The Nation who interviewed him in the days following 9/11 on the subject of impeaching the Supreme Court 5. It is very interesting:
http://www.thenation.com/article/still-time-impeach-supreme-court-five
Oktober
(1,488 posts)Was gonna say... Thought I'd remember that one...
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... by invalidating matching funds which her law firm lobbied for after she retired from the Supreme Court...
http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2010/04/21/house-panel-oks-clean-elections-repeal
... and then the Bush Roberts led Supreme Court shut down permanently when it was appealed to them later...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/28/us/politics/28campaign.html
So... Perhaps instead of being known for their screwy governor Jan Brewer who was appointed after Obama appointed the then governor to his administration, and her messing with immigration laws, Arizona might be known now as a leader amongst states in getting in some real public campaign financing law reforms!
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... that elections have consequences.
But I keep reading here on this "Democratic" website that both parties are the same, Obama equals Dubya, the behind-the-scenes PTB are actually running things from an undisclosed location, and gerrymandering of districts and GOP voter suppression efforts are just window dressing designed to fool the public into believing that their votes might actually count.
YvonneCa
(10,117 posts)madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)but the amount of corporate money pouring into the elections is a very scary situation, thanks to the Roberts Court's decisions.
BTW, Welcome back.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... to destroy life on earth!
Cleita
(75,480 posts)meaning no more mountain top mining, no more fracking and no Keystone pipe line. Also, I'd like to think that maybe the BP Gulf oil disaster might not have happened because of better regulations of oil drilling.
CTyankee
(63,890 posts)When I think about how meekly we all acquiesed. Nobody rioted in the streets. But then, nobody could even imagine the horrors that were wrought upon us by that one SCOTUS decision...
Staph
(6,251 posts)that in 2008, we would have elected John Edwards as president, assuming that he had been able to keep it in his pants for the preceding eight years.
madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)Did I really fucking say that??
ARRRRGGGGGHHHH!!
Lieberman/McCain 2008??
Amazing what happens when you go down that rabbit hole.
Staph
(6,251 posts)My bad -- I had a total brain fart after a long work week.
But I guess the point still remains -- President Joe Lieberman in 2008? Horrors!
tblue37
(65,227 posts)thoroughly obnoxious as VP, so he probably would not have won the Dem primary--and I doubt that Gore would have backed him for the nomination, either. I got the distinct impression that Gore was strong-armed by TPTB into accepting Lieberman as his VP.
Dirty Socialist
(3,252 posts)Remember, Gore DID win the election, but the Florida GOP and the Supreme Court stole it.
madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)tblue37
(65,227 posts)mainstreetonce
(4,178 posts)Lock cockpit doors.....before9/11.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)ungovernable. The media would have cheered them on. Winning reelection in 2004 would have been difficult given relentless campaign of sabotage.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)FlatStanley
(327 posts)Is that Alito and Roberts would not be on the bench.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)FlatStanley
(327 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,286 posts)out of the Geneva Convention Treaty and instituted torture, Gore would also have fought tooth and nail for Net Neutrality, protecting the Internet.
FlatStanley
(327 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,286 posts)Whether they be words of virtue, courage, truth, inspirational, enlightening, inclusive, or divisive, vitriolic, hate filled or fear instilling words.
Whether for good or evil words have power and they reflect on the speaker, they are part and parcel of your "behavior."
By their fruits you will know them. Do you
gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
FlatStanley
(327 posts)I do know that Senator Gore supported Iraq 1.0 and was the Veep during Bosnia, so I do know he has no problem with American Forces used against nations that are of no threat to America.
I voted for him in 2000, and I voted for Gore and Clinton in 1996. I just can't preclude him waging war in either Afghanistan or Iraq. Of course it was Saudi Arabia that hit us on 9/11 but nobody would dare support an attack on them.
Uncle Joe
(58,286 posts)So you're De Facto using a Biblical teaching.
There is a major difference between supporting Iraq 1.0 when they invaded another nation; Kuwait, kicking them out and invading Iraq on a passel of lies, Gore knew the difference.
FlatStanley
(327 posts)It really isn't quoting the Bible. And I suspect the concept of judging people by what they do predates the Bible.
But this is all beside the point. It is what you do, not what you say you will do, that defines you.
Uncle Joe
(58,286 posts)words predated their actions.
You violated your own quote when you stated categorically that Gore wouldn't have nominated Roberts or Alito because you were sure of this, all based on Al Gore's ideology and "words," despite the fact that Gore having never been sworn into office was never in the position to use his "works" in nominating anyone to the SC.
I don't disagree with your assumption but it's not based on Gore's "works" as a sworn in President.
I'm equally confident that Gore would never have invaded Iraq based on lies, instituted torture, would've been far more aggressive in championing sustainable energy sources, protected and promoted the Internet instead of trying to undermine it by killing Net Neutrality, and never have raped the Bill of Rights in regards to the American Peoples' privacy.
I'm less certain but relatively confident that 9/11 wouldn't have happened under Gore as he would've been far more aggressive in taking Al Qaeda seriously.
FlatStanley
(327 posts)Because Al Gore hadn't demonstrated, through action, that he would consider those type of jurists. On the other hand,
Al Gore's actions in supporting Iraq 1.0 and our Bosnia mission, provided evidence that he was not immune to targeting nations that did not threaten the US.
On further investigation I see that Al Gore confirmed Scalia and rejected Thomas. So he has a mixed bag there.
You can always judge their words by their previous actions, it would seem.
Uncle Joe
(58,286 posts)Will all respect, the only two statements we can say with any real certainty
Is that Alito and Roberts would not be on the bench.
Believe it or not, all wars are not the same, repelling an invasion in to a sovereign nation by an aggressor nation is as night and day to invading a nation based on lies and deceit, Iraq invade Kuwait and the U.S. along with a coalition of allies kicked them out.
In regards to Bosnia, NATO's intervention ended the war which had already killed approximately 100,000 people included 20,000-50,000 mass rapes and ethnic cleansing or war crimes committed mostly by the Serbs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_War
It was principally a territorial conflict, initially between the Serb forces mostly organized in the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) on the one side, and the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (ARBiH) which was largely composed of Bosniaks, and the Croat forces in the Croatian Defence Council (HVO) on the other side. The Croats also aimed at securing parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina as Croatian.[15] The Serb and Croat political leadership agreed on a partition of Bosnia with the Karađorđevo and Graz agreements, resulting in the Croat forces turning against the ARBiH and the Croat-Bosniak war.[16] The war was characterized by bitter fighting, indiscriminate shelling of cities and towns, ethnic cleansing and systematic mass rape, mostly led by Serb and, to a lesser extent, Croat[17] and Bosniak[18] forces. Events such as the Siege of Sarajevo and the Srebrenica massacre would become iconic of the conflict.
The Serbs, although initially superior due to the vast amount of weapons and resources provided by the JNA, eventually lost momentum as the Bosniaks and Croats allied themselves against the Republika Srpska in 1994 with the creation of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina following the Washington agreement. After the Srebrenica and Markale massacres, NATO intervened in 1995 with Operation Deliberate Force targeting the positions of the Army of the Republika Srpska, which proved key in ending the war.[19][20] The war was brought to an end after the signing of the General Framework Agreement for Peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina in Paris on 14 December 1995. Peace negotiations were held in Dayton, Ohio, and were finalized on 21 December 1995. The accords are now known as the Dayton Agreement.[21] According to a report compiled by the UN, and chaired by M. Cherif Bassiouni, while all sides committed war crimes during the conflict, Serbian forces were responsible for ninety per cent of them, whereas Croatian forces were responsible for six per cent, and Muslim forces four percent.[22] The report echoed conclusions published by a Central Intelligence Agency estimate in 1995.[23][24] As of early 2008, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia had convicted 45 Serbs, 12 Croats and 4 Bosniaks of war crimes in connection with the war in Bosnia.[25] The most recent figures suggest that around 100,000 people were killed during the war.[26][27] In addition, an estimated total of 20,000 to 50,000 women were raped,[28] and over 2.2 million people were displaced,[29] making it the most devastating conflict in Europe since the end of World War II.
Scalia was unanimously confirmed by the Senate, in this Gore wasn't alone, Scalia didn't have the paper trail of Bork which was Reagan's other consideration and the Judiciary Committee went easy on him after a bitter fight over the Rehnquist nomination.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonin_Scalia
In 1986, Scalia was appointed by Reagan to the Supreme Court to fill the associate justice seat vacated when Justice William Rehnquist was elevated to Chief Justice. Whereas Rehnquist's confirmation was contentious, Scalia was asked few difficult questions by the Senate Judiciary Committee, and faced no opposition. Scalia was unanimously confirmed by the Senate, becoming the first Italian-American justice.[2]
(snip)
When Senate Judiciary Committee hearings on Scalia's nomination opened in August 1986, he faced a committee that had just wrangled over the Rehnquist nomination. Witnesses and Democratic senators contended that, before becoming a judge, Rehnquist had engaged in activities designed to discourage minorities from voting. Committee members had little taste for a second battle over Scalia and were in any event reluctant to oppose the first Italian-American Supreme Court nominee.[29] The judge was not pressed heavily on controversial issues such as abortion or civil rights.[30] Scalia, who attended the hearing with his wife and nine children seated behind him, found time for a humorous exchange with Democratic Ohio Senator Howard Metzenbaum, whom Scalia had defeated in a tennis match in, as the nominee put it, "a case of my integrity overcoming my judgment".[31]
Scalia met no opposition from the committee. The full Senate debated Scalia's nomination only briefly, and he was confirmed 980 on September 17, 1986, becoming the first Italian-American justice.[2] This vote followed Rehnquist's confirmation as Chief Justice by a vote of 6533 on the same day. He took his seat on September 26, 1986. One committee member, Democratic Delaware Senator (and future Vice President) Joe Biden, later stated that he regretted not having opposed Scalia "because he was so effective".[32]
Having said that there is also major difference between having to confirm or deny a candidate to the SC which will inevitably be chosen from a pool by the President versus actually being the President and having the right to select said candidate to the SC.
FlatStanley
(327 posts)And after doing an admittedly cursory search on his Supremes confirmations that putting an Alito or Roberts on the bench is within the scope of possibility. For me, this strengthens the case that actions speak louder than words.
Uncle Joe
(58,286 posts)bring yourself to give a Gore Presidency, sort of like "throwing a bone."
A President Gore nominating Roberts or Alito for the SC isn't even within the common sense, logical or reasonable realm of possibility, and I have no doubt you know that.
You were basically arguing there was no fundamental difference between Gore and Bush except for the SC nominations, now you're backtracking even on that little bone, "actions may speak louder than words" but your words scream to high heaven; metaphorically speaking.
FlatStanley
(327 posts)And frankly, I expected far more nirvana relative to Bush with Obama and it has not come to pass. Now you can argue that the GOP as literally shut him down, and I see no reason in retrospect to presume the GOP wouldn't have done the same to Gore. After all, Gore was Clinton's Veep and the Republicans hated Clinton. And with Joe Lieberman as Veep again you have to ask yourself just how different it would have been.
Sorry I'm so cynical, but the past six years have been and utter disappointment to me. That may be my problem, and a wrong perception, but I truly thought we were on the verge of an FDR level pivot from the Neocon and DLC disasters of the past thirty years.
Uncle Joe
(58,286 posts)was his considerable experience and success with the workings of Washington.
Eight years with Congress, eight years as a Senator, eight years as a Vice-President and he performed all of those occupations admirably.
Obama was a relative newcomer and he had the handicap of cleaning up after the catastrophic Bush pResidency, Gore would've been starting out in a much more advantageous position.
Lieberman was primarily chosen because Clinton left Gore with little choice, having said that Gore would've been President not Lieberman and it's possible even Lieberman's future would've been altered for the better under Al's influence.
I don't know what "nirvana" is but I'm convinced Gore could've been one of our three greatest Presidents and that's no hyperbole.
FlatStanley
(327 posts)I was attempting to point out that the OP's interpretation of a Gore Presidency wasn't the guarantee in interpreted it to be. Although I think Lieberman would have proven to be his Trojan Horse full of neocon ideas or the Judas to Gore's policy. In retrospect.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)the promises.
FlatStanley
(327 posts)davidn3600
(6,342 posts)The Democrats were beating the Iraq war drum in the late 1990s.
Al Queda was planning 9/11 well before Bush took office. And I don't know the issues that went into not being able to track what they were doing. There was a lot of turf wars going on between the FBI and CIA so a lot of info was falling through the cracks. I doubt Gore would have fixed that.
As far as the Supreme Court goes, you do have a point there.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)They did not steal that election with good intentions in mind.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)He sure disappeared.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)JoeyT
(6,785 posts)And the consequence is losing the election.
I voted for Gore, but I wasn't particularly a fan of his, and I could easily understand why people were turned off by him.
Free trade thumping and running with Lieberman wasn't a good idea.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)Well, the SCOTUS kiled democracy on December 10, 2000.
get the red out
(13,460 posts)many times.
BKH70041
(961 posts)Give me the top ten stock gains for this coming week ending 09/19/2014 right now. You get those correct and we'll talk.
madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)But that is all immaterial to what you just said. If you had actually followed the news from the late 1990's you would have known the BFEE was planning at that time an invasion of Iraq. What that has to do with predictions of stock gains or losses, I will have to check with Paul Krugman.
BKH70041
(961 posts)Top ten stocks this next week and I believe you can know the future.
When I was at Wharton obtaining my MBA, Krugman came and gave a lecture. We laughed him off the stage. He's too simpleminded to address Wharton students who understand more about economics their first year than he could ever hope to understand.
madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)He does not toe the Koch line. What would you expect. What exactly is Krugman wrong about?
CBHagman
(16,981 posts)BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Afghanistan- Maybe? Maybe not, there were a lot of turf wars between the FBI and CIA so who knows if 9/11 and the subsequent response could have been avoided.
Iraq- There was bipartisan support for an Iraq war among the right wing which by that point was entrenched in both parties, if 9/11 happens then Iraq also probably happens.
Supreme Court Justices- Maybe not them but there were equally right wing/center right wing justices which were possible so once again, who knows.
Federal deficit- Largely contingent on the wars, if the wars exist then the deficit changes as it did along historical lines.
The problem with alternative history scenarios is the closer in time you are to the divergence the more deterministic it gets, you would have to go back several decades to see true divergence from our actual history. The second problem is your analysis is really contingent on great man theory being true, which I don't think it is. There are many more factors at play here than Gore getting the presidency, I think.
madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)Afghanistan - I think it would have been more like the operation Obama had when he went after bin Laden. No war, just strategic strikes.
Iraq - Would never have happened. After Bush #1 went in and pushed Hussein back with no effort at all, the sanctions proved to be effective at keeping Hussein at bay (albeit at the cost of Iraqi citizens). BTW, there was "bipartisan" support for the Iraq War (2003) that was created only by lies, so I cannot consider that bipartisan at all.
SC - Roberts and Alito would never have been nominated by President Gore. Nor would Roberts be running the Supreme Court.
Federal Deficit - In addition to the wars, there was an un-funded tax cut, which transferred nearly $2 trillion to the wealthiest of the wealthy, an un-funded expansion to provide prescription drugs valued at $.5 trillion dollars. None of this was paid for.
"What-if's" - Whilst I can never say what a President Gore would have done had he actually become President, I base my thoughts on what the Clinton/Gore admin and Gore himself have said. Would it have been different from what I image, quite possible. Would Gore have been a great president? I don't know. He may well have been a one term president. How would a President Gore reacted to 9/11? How would the news media (Fox Noise) responded? Questions abound.
Uncle Joe
(58,286 posts)would've been "equally right wing" as Roberts and Alito and probably not even "center right" Clinton's nominations didn't even approach right wing.
There was only bipartisan support for the war with Iraq because Bush and Cheney with the help of the corporate media relentlessly and subliminally promoted Iraq as a/the culprit behind 9/11, brainwashing the nation and Gore would never have done that.
Gore may have attacked Afghanistan to root out Al Qaeda but he wouldn't have taken the war off the books, he's a logical and in many ways visionary technocrat.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)and run away from all the good the Clinton administration did, the election might not have been close enough to steal!
madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)Gore really did pick a douchebag who couldn't even win a debate against himself. Also interesting is he ran away from a President who was still popular, whilst you look back to 1988, Bush #1 did not distance himself from a president who was not all there and was definitely tainted. Compare Bush #2 to Dukakis.
I completely agree that Gore would have had a much better shot at winning had he not shunned the Clenis.
Uncle Joe
(58,286 posts)it wasn't Gore that sold Clinton down the river, it was the other way around.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)and never drove home the message of how he and Clinton lowered the deficit.
Gore was scared of the whole Monica fiasco and that's also why he chose dickhead as his running mate.
Uncle Joe
(58,286 posts)occasions.
1. Acting like a teenager with his hormones out of control and engaging in sexual activity with a young subordinate despite knowing the Republicans had been gunning for him since day 1 over "bimbo eruptions." This did nothing to help Gore in moderate to conservative purplish states.
2. Having Gore to go out there on the White House Lawn and testify to Clinton's "integrity" thus directly tying Gore to the scandal.
3. Getting on national television and directly lying to the people "I did not have sexual relations with that woman Monica Lewinsky" instead of manning and confessing or just keeping his mouth shut, this did nothing to help Gore when the truth came out.
4. Trying to make the 2000 Convention about Clinton instead of Gore by wasting what seemed like an eternity of precious national television prime time, letting the camera follow Clinton down the hallway just so the people could gaze at his beauty, instead of hauling his ass to the podium and promoting Gore. This only message that display sent to the American People was Clinton's hubris.
It was Clinton's own actions which most determined Gore's choice for a running mate because Lieberman was about the only Democrat that rightfully criticized Clinton for his behavior.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)This is the truth, and there is no 2 ways about it!!!!
former9thward
(31,940 posts)Al Qaeda had attacked the Trade Center in 1993, the USS Cole, and blew up our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. All during the Clinton administration. The 9/11 operation was in the planning before Bush took over.
Regime change in Iraq was the official policy of the Clinton administration and Gore supported that.
Of course SC appointments would be different.
No economist ANYWHERE suggests there would be no deficit no matte who was president. If it had been less or not is imposbile to tell. The economic problems which set off the 2007-9 recession were long in coming and caused by many factors -- some of which are with us today.
madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)Maybe 9/11 would have happened. If it would have happened, would we have invaded Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11? I seriously doubt it.
As for regime change, IIRC, it was more of a containment thing rather than regime change, because no one really wanted to go down the rabbit hole of regime change in Iraq. Even Bush #1 and his administration thought better of that.
As to Budget deficits, we actually had a surplus for a couple of years at the end of the Clinton administration. As soon as the Bush/Cheney misadministration was selected they systematically trashed the economy. That is a fact. You cannot go into a recession and start cutting taxes for the wealthy.
former9thward
(31,940 posts)But it was regime change.
The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 is a United States Congressional statement of policy calling for regime change in Iraq. It was signed into law by President Bill Clinton, and states that it is the policy of the United States to support democratic movements within Iraq. The Act was cited in October 2002 to argue for the authorization of military force against the Iraqi government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act
The main problem with the deficits is that we went into two wars and refused to pay for them. We should have passed a war tax which completely paid for the wars. If people did not want to do that, then pull the troops out.
madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)The point of that act was to call attention to what was going on (or what was thought to be going on) in Iraq. IIRC, there was no real desire by the Clinton adminsitration to go into Iraq and do regime change.
As to your second comment, that is correct. Between the two wars a massive un-paid for tax cut, Bush #2 screwed this country. It was not the people that wanted to do that, it was the Military Industrial Complex and the Corporations of this country that wanted it to happen. Not the "people", unless you consider corporations to be people.
jmowreader
(50,528 posts)CBHagman
(16,981 posts)...Gore would have taken a completely different approach to national security. I recall how in the '90s the GOP loved to mock the Clinton administration for attempts to get Osama bin Laden.
And the front page of The New York Times of September 11th, 2001, contained a story about the Bush administration's cutbacks in counterterrorism efforts.
On edit: Of course a lot more would have been different, including appointments. However, the Republican leadership in Congress would have fought the Gore administration tooth and nail every step of the way. It's possible it would have been a one-term administration. But there would have been no Iraq War.