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madinmaryland

(64,931 posts)
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:00 PM Sep 2014

Elections have consequences. Had Al Gore been sworn in as President, in all likelihood there would

have been no attacks on the United States in September of 2001. VP Gore's warning to the incoming "mis"administration was to keep a close eye on Al-Quada, which was dismissed by the Bush/Cheney administration.

Imagine:

No war in Afghanistan.
No war in Iraq
No John Roberts
No Samuel Alito
A federal deficit $12 trillion less than it is now. (Maybe even NO deficit).

Elections have Consequences.

82 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Elections have consequences. Had Al Gore been sworn in as President, in all likelihood there would (Original Post) madinmaryland Sep 2014 OP
This is what would have happened: mucifer Sep 2014 #1
Loved seeing it again, mucifer! Thanks so much for the great laughs BlueCaliDem Sep 2014 #3
lol treestar Sep 2014 #5
OMG I remember that. As funny as it is it makes me cry. Autumn Sep 2014 #6
I remember... YvonneCa Sep 2014 #9
I hadn't seen this before. Brigid Sep 2014 #22
I never saw that before. Half-Century Man Sep 2014 #26
Gore FAVORED the Afghan War Al Carroll Sep 2014 #53
+ 1000. Thank you! BlueCaliDem Sep 2014 #2
Well you can blame the Supreme Court for that fuckup bigdarryl Sep 2014 #4
They should have been impeached and the Democrats should never have tolorated Autumn Sep 2014 #7
There was a movement to impeach the Supreme Court 5 Samantha Sep 2014 #17
Uncanny. Almost by design. Autumn Sep 2014 #18
Movement by whom? Oktober Sep 2014 #40
A great number of people who were angry over the Supreme Court's decision Samantha Sep 2014 #47
Ahh... I thought you meant someone with power... Oktober Sep 2014 #48
And perhaps Sandra Day O'Connor then wouldn't have shut down Arizona public campaign financing... cascadiance Sep 2014 #45
I wholeheartedly agree ... NanceGreggs Sep 2014 #8
Sad isn't it? n/t YvonneCa Sep 2014 #11
As I said above, I don't believe that both parties are the same... madinmaryland Sep 2014 #12
In the multiverse universe theory there is such a parallel Earth...maybe I am already there.... Fred Sanders Sep 2014 #10
And climate change would have been dealt with already instead of "waiting in the wings"... cascadiance Sep 2014 #13
+1 lunasun Sep 2014 #31
Also, we would have been farther along in developing renewable energy sources Cleita Sep 2014 #14
Yes. So many, many things would be so different... CTyankee Sep 2014 #42
Of course, that also strongly implies . . . Staph Sep 2014 #15
Huh? Vice President Lieberman would have become President. madinmaryland Sep 2014 #16
D'oh! Staph Sep 2014 #21
Probably not. Lieberman is such a weasel that I doubt he could have been anything other than tblue37 Sep 2014 #25
WRONG Dirty Socialist Sep 2014 #19
Did you read what I wrote? "Had Al Gore been sworn in as President" madinmaryland Sep 2014 #20
A probably no Islamic State, either. nt tblue37 Sep 2014 #23
Al Gore wanted to mainstreetonce Sep 2014 #24
The Republicans would have pulled out all stops in trying to cripple the nation and make the country Douglas Carpenter Sep 2014 #27
the guy who said Nader didn't throw 2000? you would've barbecued that party traitor by 2002 MisterP Sep 2014 #28
Will all respect, the only two statements we can say with any real certainty FlatStanley Sep 2014 #29
...which certainly would have been preferable. nt cyberswede Sep 2014 #30
Absolutely! FlatStanley Sep 2014 #32
Gore wouldn't have invaded Iraq, he wouldn't have raped the Bill of Rights nor pulled us Uncle Joe Sep 2014 #34
Sorry, but you know people by their WORKS. FlatStanley Sep 2014 #37
That's only half the story, you also know people by their words. Uncle Joe Sep 2014 #38
Sorry. I'm an Atheist so I'm not concerned how the sentiment is portrayed in the Bible. FlatStanley Sep 2014 #39
Whether you're an Atheist or not, your quote evolved from the Bible. Uncle Joe Sep 2014 #50
Since I didn't learn it from the Bible, and I didn't use it as written in the Bible FlatStanley Sep 2014 #51
It's both, Hitler, Goebbels, Ghandi, Martin Luther King and a legion of other historical figures' Uncle Joe Sep 2014 #55
Actually, I didn't state it categorically, but definitely with high confidence. FlatStanley Sep 2014 #56
"Real certainty" is about as close to categorical as you can get. Uncle Joe Sep 2014 #57
I accept that. FlatStanley Sep 2014 #58
I don't believe you truly believe that, but your original post was all the credit that you could Uncle Joe Sep 2014 #63
I'm not backtracking. I just don't think it would be the nirvana that OP suggested. FlatStanley Sep 2014 #79
The major advantage with a President Gore Uncle Joe Sep 2014 #81
I don't disagree with you. FlatStanley Sep 2014 #82
I'm not sure I believe that. They go in promising all kinds of things. But the results never match liberal_at_heart Sep 2014 #33
Yes. You know them by their works FlatStanley Sep 2014 #35
I dont know if we can say that or not. davidn3600 Sep 2014 #36
Kicked and recommended! Enthusiast Sep 2014 #41
Maybe ol' Al shouldn't have spent the previous 4 years shilling for NAFTA. It wasn't popular. Romulox Sep 2014 #43
where is ross perot today? is he still alive? grasswire Sep 2014 #54
We would all be flying our solar powered flying cars too. B Calm Sep 2014 #44
Bad policy has consequences. JoeyT Sep 2014 #46
Elected President, but didn't take the oath joeybee12 Sep 2014 #49
I have thought about this get the red out Sep 2014 #52
You have a crystal ball? BKH70041 Sep 2014 #59
And I know Krystal Ball... madinmaryland Sep 2014 #62
Yeah, it's all me. (snicker) BKH70041 Sep 2014 #65
Of course Paul Krugman was laughed off the stage at Wharton. madinmaryland Sep 2014 #68
The coming week holds a tombstone. CBHagman Sep 2014 #80
Hmm, I really hate indulging in alternative history, but... BlindTiresias Sep 2014 #60
Thanks for your comments... madinmaryland Sep 2014 #67
Gore was more progressive than Clinton and there is no way his nominations for the SC Uncle Joe Sep 2014 #71
And if Gore hadn't of picked a walking/talling douchebag for a running mate zappaman Sep 2014 #61
You bring up a couple of interesting points. madinmaryland Sep 2014 #64
Gore chose his VP running mate with the same basic mentality as Lincoln did in choosing Johnson and Uncle Joe Sep 2014 #66
Gore ran away from the policies of the Clinton administration zappaman Sep 2014 #69
Gore didn't "run away" from Clinton's policies. Clinton threw Gore under the bus on at least four Uncle Joe Sep 2014 #73
I personally recommend this thread!!! Major Hogwash Sep 2014 #70
9/11 would have happened. former9thward Sep 2014 #72
Well... madinmaryland Sep 2014 #74
Not to beat a dead horse ... former9thward Sep 2014 #75
Well.. madinmaryland Sep 2014 #76
The deficit has never been $12 trillion; the national debt is that high jmowreader Sep 2014 #77
I am not certain the administration would have prevented 9/11, but I can well imagine... CBHagman Sep 2014 #78

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
3. Loved seeing it again, mucifer! Thanks so much for the great laughs
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:08 PM
Sep 2014

and the brief walk on memory lane.

Autumn

(44,981 posts)
6. OMG I remember that. As funny as it is it makes me cry.
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:11 PM
Sep 2014

My god what could have been. Thanks for posting that. That 2000 election sure did have consequences thanks to that disgusting supreme court.

Al Carroll

(113 posts)
53. Gore FAVORED the Afghan War
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 03:01 PM
Sep 2014

He also favored the Iraq War, overthrowing Hussein, and believed there were WMDs in Iraq.

He only objected to Bush going to war in Iraq without internat'l support. Had he been pres, he would just have tried to build that support much more.

But your other points are very true.

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
2. + 1000. Thank you!
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:03 PM
Sep 2014

Yes, elections have consequences and I hope people will keep that in mind this November 4th.

 

bigdarryl

(13,190 posts)
4. Well you can blame the Supreme Court for that fuckup
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:09 PM
Sep 2014

Gore received 500,000 more votes than Bush that election was STOLEN from Gore by those five jackasses on the court.

Autumn

(44,981 posts)
7. They should have been impeached and the Democrats should never have tolorated
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:20 PM
Sep 2014

what went on. Instead the Democrats remained silent.

Samantha

(9,314 posts)
17. There was a movement to impeach the Supreme Court 5
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 09:01 PM
Sep 2014

The announcement was scheduled to take place at 5:00 pm on the steps of the Court. The date: 9/11/2001....

Sam

Samantha

(9,314 posts)
47. A great number of people who were angry over the Supreme Court's decision
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 12:21 PM
Sep 2014

This was a subject discussed here at the time, and it garnered a lot of interest. After the attacks, people were still vocal about the effort but as time went on, it became apparent that it would be virtually impossible to proceed in the aftermath of 9/11.

Sam

Postscript: Vincent Bugliosi was one of the most outspoken people on this issue. I am including a link from The Nation who interviewed him in the days following 9/11 on the subject of impeaching the Supreme Court 5. It is very interesting:

http://www.thenation.com/article/still-time-impeach-supreme-court-five

 

Oktober

(1,488 posts)
48. Ahh... I thought you meant someone with power...
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 12:42 PM
Sep 2014

Was gonna say... Thought I'd remember that one...

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
45. And perhaps Sandra Day O'Connor then wouldn't have shut down Arizona public campaign financing...
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 11:07 AM
Sep 2014

... by invalidating matching funds which her law firm lobbied for after she retired from the Supreme Court...

http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2010/04/21/house-panel-oks-clean-elections-repeal

... and then the Bush Roberts led Supreme Court shut down permanently when it was appealed to them later...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/28/us/politics/28campaign.html

So... Perhaps instead of being known for their screwy governor Jan Brewer who was appointed after Obama appointed the then governor to his administration, and her messing with immigration laws, Arizona might be known now as a leader amongst states in getting in some real public campaign financing law reforms!

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
8. I wholeheartedly agree ...
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:24 PM
Sep 2014

... that elections have consequences.

But I keep reading here on this "Democratic" website that both parties are the same, Obama equals Dubya, the behind-the-scenes PTB are actually running things from an undisclosed location, and gerrymandering of districts and GOP voter suppression efforts are just window dressing designed to fool the public into believing that their votes might actually count.

madinmaryland

(64,931 posts)
12. As I said above, I don't believe that both parties are the same...
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:34 PM
Sep 2014

but the amount of corporate money pouring into the elections is a very scary situation, thanks to the Roberts Court's decisions.

BTW, Welcome back.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
13. And climate change would have been dealt with already instead of "waiting in the wings"...
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:35 PM
Sep 2014

... to destroy life on earth!

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
14. Also, we would have been farther along in developing renewable energy sources
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:47 PM
Sep 2014

meaning no more mountain top mining, no more fracking and no Keystone pipe line. Also, I'd like to think that maybe the BP Gulf oil disaster might not have happened because of better regulations of oil drilling.

CTyankee

(63,890 posts)
42. Yes. So many, many things would be so different...
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 08:28 AM
Sep 2014

When I think about how meekly we all acquiesed. Nobody rioted in the streets. But then, nobody could even imagine the horrors that were wrought upon us by that one SCOTUS decision...

Staph

(6,251 posts)
15. Of course, that also strongly implies . . .
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:49 PM
Sep 2014

that in 2008, we would have elected John Edwards as president, assuming that he had been able to keep it in his pants for the preceding eight years.



madinmaryland

(64,931 posts)
16. Huh? Vice President Lieberman would have become President.
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 08:56 PM
Sep 2014

Did I really fucking say that??

ARRRRGGGGGHHHH!!

Lieberman/McCain 2008??

Amazing what happens when you go down that rabbit hole.

Staph

(6,251 posts)
21. D'oh!
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 09:56 PM
Sep 2014

My bad -- I had a total brain fart after a long work week.

But I guess the point still remains -- President Joe Lieberman in 2008? Horrors!


tblue37

(65,227 posts)
25. Probably not. Lieberman is such a weasel that I doubt he could have been anything other than
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 10:25 PM
Sep 2014

thoroughly obnoxious as VP, so he probably would not have won the Dem primary--and I doubt that Gore would have backed him for the nomination, either. I got the distinct impression that Gore was strong-armed by TPTB into accepting Lieberman as his VP.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
27. The Republicans would have pulled out all stops in trying to cripple the nation and make the country
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 10:46 PM
Sep 2014

ungovernable. The media would have cheered them on. Winning reelection in 2004 would have been difficult given relentless campaign of sabotage.

 

FlatStanley

(327 posts)
29. Will all respect, the only two statements we can say with any real certainty
Thu Sep 11, 2014, 11:16 PM
Sep 2014

Is that Alito and Roberts would not be on the bench.

Uncle Joe

(58,286 posts)
34. Gore wouldn't have invaded Iraq, he wouldn't have raped the Bill of Rights nor pulled us
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 02:29 AM
Sep 2014

out of the Geneva Convention Treaty and instituted torture, Gore would also have fought tooth and nail for Net Neutrality, protecting the Internet.




Uncle Joe

(58,286 posts)
38. That's only half the story, you also know people by their words.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 03:12 AM
Sep 2014

Whether they be words of virtue, courage, truth, inspirational, enlightening, inclusive, or divisive, vitriolic, hate filled or fear instilling words.

Whether for good or evil words have power and they reflect on the speaker, they are part and parcel of your "behavior."



By their fruits you will know them. Do you
gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?







 

FlatStanley

(327 posts)
39. Sorry. I'm an Atheist so I'm not concerned how the sentiment is portrayed in the Bible.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 03:40 AM
Sep 2014

I do know that Senator Gore supported Iraq 1.0 and was the Veep during Bosnia, so I do know he has no problem with American Forces used against nations that are of no threat to America.

I voted for him in 2000, and I voted for Gore and Clinton in 1996. I just can't preclude him waging war in either Afghanistan or Iraq. Of course it was Saudi Arabia that hit us on 9/11 but nobody would dare support an attack on them.

Uncle Joe

(58,286 posts)
50. Whether you're an Atheist or not, your quote evolved from the Bible.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 02:42 PM
Sep 2014

So you're De Facto using a Biblical teaching.

There is a major difference between supporting Iraq 1.0 when they invaded another nation; Kuwait, kicking them out and invading Iraq on a passel of lies, Gore knew the difference.

 

FlatStanley

(327 posts)
51. Since I didn't learn it from the Bible, and I didn't use it as written in the Bible
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 02:55 PM
Sep 2014

It really isn't quoting the Bible. And I suspect the concept of judging people by what they do predates the Bible.

But this is all beside the point. It is what you do, not what you say you will do, that defines you.

Uncle Joe

(58,286 posts)
55. It's both, Hitler, Goebbels, Ghandi, Martin Luther King and a legion of other historical figures'
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 03:12 PM
Sep 2014

words predated their actions.

You violated your own quote when you stated categorically that Gore wouldn't have nominated Roberts or Alito because you were sure of this, all based on Al Gore's ideology and "words," despite the fact that Gore having never been sworn into office was never in the position to use his "works" in nominating anyone to the SC.

I don't disagree with your assumption but it's not based on Gore's "works" as a sworn in President.

I'm equally confident that Gore would never have invaded Iraq based on lies, instituted torture, would've been far more aggressive in championing sustainable energy sources, protected and promoted the Internet instead of trying to undermine it by killing Net Neutrality, and never have raped the Bill of Rights in regards to the American Peoples' privacy.

I'm less certain but relatively confident that 9/11 wouldn't have happened under Gore as he would've been far more aggressive in taking Al Qaeda seriously.

 

FlatStanley

(327 posts)
56. Actually, I didn't state it categorically, but definitely with high confidence.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 03:54 PM
Sep 2014

Because Al Gore hadn't demonstrated, through action, that he would consider those type of jurists. On the other hand,
Al Gore's actions in supporting Iraq 1.0 and our Bosnia mission, provided evidence that he was not immune to targeting nations that did not threaten the US.

On further investigation I see that Al Gore confirmed Scalia and rejected Thomas. So he has a mixed bag there.

You can always judge their words by their previous actions, it would seem.

Uncle Joe

(58,286 posts)
57. "Real certainty" is about as close to categorical as you can get.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 04:26 PM
Sep 2014


Will all respect, the only two statements we can say with any real certainty

Is that Alito and Roberts would not be on the bench.




Believe it or not, all wars are not the same, repelling an invasion in to a sovereign nation by an aggressor nation is as night and day to invading a nation based on lies and deceit, Iraq invade Kuwait and the U.S. along with a coalition of allies kicked them out.

In regards to Bosnia, NATO's intervention ended the war which had already killed approximately 100,000 people included 20,000-50,000 mass rapes and ethnic cleansing or war crimes committed mostly by the Serbs.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_War

It was principally a territorial conflict, initially between the Serb forces mostly organized in the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) on the one side, and the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (ARBiH) which was largely composed of Bosniaks, and the Croat forces in the Croatian Defence Council (HVO) on the other side. The Croats also aimed at securing parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina as Croatian.[15] The Serb and Croat political leadership agreed on a partition of Bosnia with the Karađorđevo and Graz agreements, resulting in the Croat forces turning against the ARBiH and the Croat-Bosniak war.[16] The war was characterized by bitter fighting, indiscriminate shelling of cities and towns, ethnic cleansing and systematic mass rape, mostly led by Serb and, to a lesser extent, Croat[17] and Bosniak[18] forces. Events such as the Siege of Sarajevo and the Srebrenica massacre would become iconic of the conflict.

The Serbs, although initially superior due to the vast amount of weapons and resources provided by the JNA, eventually lost momentum as the Bosniaks and Croats allied themselves against the Republika Srpska in 1994 with the creation of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina following the Washington agreement. After the Srebrenica and Markale massacres, NATO intervened in 1995 with Operation Deliberate Force targeting the positions of the Army of the Republika Srpska, which proved key in ending the war.[19][20] The war was brought to an end after the signing of the General Framework Agreement for Peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina in Paris on 14 December 1995. Peace negotiations were held in Dayton, Ohio, and were finalized on 21 December 1995. The accords are now known as the Dayton Agreement.[21] According to a report compiled by the UN, and chaired by M. Cherif Bassiouni, while all sides committed war crimes during the conflict, Serbian forces were responsible for ninety per cent of them, whereas Croatian forces were responsible for six per cent, and Muslim forces four percent.[22] The report echoed conclusions published by a Central Intelligence Agency estimate in 1995.[23][24] As of early 2008, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia had convicted 45 Serbs, 12 Croats and 4 Bosniaks of war crimes in connection with the war in Bosnia.[25] The most recent figures suggest that around 100,000 people were killed during the war.[26][27] In addition, an estimated total of 20,000 to 50,000 women were raped,[28] and over 2.2 million people were displaced,[29] making it the most devastating conflict in Europe since the end of World War II.



Scalia was unanimously confirmed by the Senate, in this Gore wasn't alone, Scalia didn't have the paper trail of Bork which was Reagan's other consideration and the Judiciary Committee went easy on him after a bitter fight over the Rehnquist nomination.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonin_Scalia

In 1986, Scalia was appointed by Reagan to the Supreme Court to fill the associate justice seat vacated when Justice William Rehnquist was elevated to Chief Justice. Whereas Rehnquist's confirmation was contentious, Scalia was asked few difficult questions by the Senate Judiciary Committee, and faced no opposition. Scalia was unanimously confirmed by the Senate, becoming the first Italian-American justice.[2]

(snip)

When Senate Judiciary Committee hearings on Scalia's nomination opened in August 1986, he faced a committee that had just wrangled over the Rehnquist nomination. Witnesses and Democratic senators contended that, before becoming a judge, Rehnquist had engaged in activities designed to discourage minorities from voting. Committee members had little taste for a second battle over Scalia and were in any event reluctant to oppose the first Italian-American Supreme Court nominee.[29] The judge was not pressed heavily on controversial issues such as abortion or civil rights.[30] Scalia, who attended the hearing with his wife and nine children seated behind him, found time for a humorous exchange with Democratic Ohio Senator Howard Metzenbaum, whom Scalia had defeated in a tennis match in, as the nominee put it, "a case of my integrity overcoming my judgment".[31]

Scalia met no opposition from the committee. The full Senate debated Scalia's nomination only briefly, and he was confirmed 98–0 on September 17, 1986, becoming the first Italian-American justice.[2] This vote followed Rehnquist's confirmation as Chief Justice by a vote of 65–33 on the same day. He took his seat on September 26, 1986. One committee member, Democratic Delaware Senator (and future Vice President) Joe Biden, later stated that he regretted not having opposed Scalia "because he was so effective".[32]



Having said that there is also major difference between having to confirm or deny a candidate to the SC which will inevitably be chosen from a pool by the President versus actually being the President and having the right to select said candidate to the SC.
 

FlatStanley

(327 posts)
58. I accept that.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 08:50 PM
Sep 2014

And after doing an admittedly cursory search on his Supremes confirmations that putting an Alito or Roberts on the bench is within the scope of possibility. For me, this strengthens the case that actions speak louder than words.

Uncle Joe

(58,286 posts)
63. I don't believe you truly believe that, but your original post was all the credit that you could
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 09:22 PM
Sep 2014

bring yourself to give a Gore Presidency, sort of like "throwing a bone."

A President Gore nominating Roberts or Alito for the SC isn't even within the common sense, logical or reasonable realm of possibility, and I have no doubt you know that.

You were basically arguing there was no fundamental difference between Gore and Bush except for the SC nominations, now you're backtracking even on that little bone, "actions may speak louder than words" but your words scream to high heaven; metaphorically speaking.

 

FlatStanley

(327 posts)
79. I'm not backtracking. I just don't think it would be the nirvana that OP suggested.
Sat Sep 13, 2014, 12:03 AM
Sep 2014

And frankly, I expected far more nirvana relative to Bush with Obama and it has not come to pass. Now you can argue that the GOP as literally shut him down, and I see no reason in retrospect to presume the GOP wouldn't have done the same to Gore. After all, Gore was Clinton's Veep and the Republicans hated Clinton. And with Joe Lieberman as Veep again you have to ask yourself just how different it would have been.

Sorry I'm so cynical, but the past six years have been and utter disappointment to me. That may be my problem, and a wrong perception, but I truly thought we were on the verge of an FDR level pivot from the Neocon and DLC disasters of the past thirty years.

Uncle Joe

(58,286 posts)
81. The major advantage with a President Gore
Sat Sep 13, 2014, 12:55 AM
Sep 2014

was his considerable experience and success with the workings of Washington.

Eight years with Congress, eight years as a Senator, eight years as a Vice-President and he performed all of those occupations admirably.

Obama was a relative newcomer and he had the handicap of cleaning up after the catastrophic Bush pResidency, Gore would've been starting out in a much more advantageous position.

Lieberman was primarily chosen because Clinton left Gore with little choice, having said that Gore would've been President not Lieberman and it's possible even Lieberman's future would've been altered for the better under Al's influence.

I don't know what "nirvana" is but I'm convinced Gore could've been one of our three greatest Presidents and that's no hyperbole.

 

FlatStanley

(327 posts)
82. I don't disagree with you.
Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:33 AM
Sep 2014

I was attempting to point out that the OP's interpretation of a Gore Presidency wasn't the guarantee in interpreted it to be. Although I think Lieberman would have proven to be his Trojan Horse full of neocon ideas or the Judas to Gore's policy. In retrospect.

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
33. I'm not sure I believe that. They go in promising all kinds of things. But the results never match
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 01:58 AM
Sep 2014

the promises.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
36. I dont know if we can say that or not.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 02:39 AM
Sep 2014

The Democrats were beating the Iraq war drum in the late 1990s.

Al Queda was planning 9/11 well before Bush took office. And I don't know the issues that went into not being able to track what they were doing. There was a lot of turf wars going on between the FBI and CIA so a lot of info was falling through the cracks. I doubt Gore would have fixed that.

As far as the Supreme Court goes, you do have a point there.

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
46. Bad policy has consequences.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 11:35 AM
Sep 2014

And the consequence is losing the election.

I voted for Gore, but I wasn't particularly a fan of his, and I could easily understand why people were turned off by him.

Free trade thumping and running with Lieberman wasn't a good idea.

BKH70041

(961 posts)
59. You have a crystal ball?
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 08:55 PM
Sep 2014

Give me the top ten stock gains for this coming week ending 09/19/2014 right now. You get those correct and we'll talk.

madinmaryland

(64,931 posts)
62. And I know Krystal Ball...
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 09:21 PM
Sep 2014

But that is all immaterial to what you just said. If you had actually followed the news from the late 1990's you would have known the BFEE was planning at that time an invasion of Iraq. What that has to do with predictions of stock gains or losses, I will have to check with Paul Krugman.

BKH70041

(961 posts)
65. Yeah, it's all me. (snicker)
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 09:28 PM
Sep 2014

Top ten stocks this next week and I believe you can know the future.

When I was at Wharton obtaining my MBA, Krugman came and gave a lecture. We laughed him off the stage. He's too simpleminded to address Wharton students who understand more about economics their first year than he could ever hope to understand.

madinmaryland

(64,931 posts)
68. Of course Paul Krugman was laughed off the stage at Wharton.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 09:52 PM
Sep 2014

He does not toe the Koch line. What would you expect. What exactly is Krugman wrong about?


BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
60. Hmm, I really hate indulging in alternative history, but...
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 09:13 PM
Sep 2014

Afghanistan- Maybe? Maybe not, there were a lot of turf wars between the FBI and CIA so who knows if 9/11 and the subsequent response could have been avoided.

Iraq- There was bipartisan support for an Iraq war among the right wing which by that point was entrenched in both parties, if 9/11 happens then Iraq also probably happens.

Supreme Court Justices- Maybe not them but there were equally right wing/center right wing justices which were possible so once again, who knows.

Federal deficit- Largely contingent on the wars, if the wars exist then the deficit changes as it did along historical lines.


The problem with alternative history scenarios is the closer in time you are to the divergence the more deterministic it gets, you would have to go back several decades to see true divergence from our actual history. The second problem is your analysis is really contingent on great man theory being true, which I don't think it is. There are many more factors at play here than Gore getting the presidency, I think.

madinmaryland

(64,931 posts)
67. Thanks for your comments...
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 09:46 PM
Sep 2014

Afghanistan - I think it would have been more like the operation Obama had when he went after bin Laden. No war, just strategic strikes.

Iraq - Would never have happened. After Bush #1 went in and pushed Hussein back with no effort at all, the sanctions proved to be effective at keeping Hussein at bay (albeit at the cost of Iraqi citizens). BTW, there was "bipartisan" support for the Iraq War (2003) that was created only by lies, so I cannot consider that bipartisan at all.

SC - Roberts and Alito would never have been nominated by President Gore. Nor would Roberts be running the Supreme Court.

Federal Deficit - In addition to the wars, there was an un-funded tax cut, which transferred nearly $2 trillion to the wealthiest of the wealthy, an un-funded expansion to provide prescription drugs valued at $.5 trillion dollars. None of this was paid for.

"What-if's" - Whilst I can never say what a President Gore would have done had he actually become President, I base my thoughts on what the Clinton/Gore admin and Gore himself have said. Would it have been different from what I image, quite possible. Would Gore have been a great president? I don't know. He may well have been a one term president. How would a President Gore reacted to 9/11? How would the news media (Fox Noise) responded? Questions abound.

Uncle Joe

(58,286 posts)
71. Gore was more progressive than Clinton and there is no way his nominations for the SC
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 09:58 PM
Sep 2014

would've been "equally right wing" as Roberts and Alito and probably not even "center right" Clinton's nominations didn't even approach right wing.

There was only bipartisan support for the war with Iraq because Bush and Cheney with the help of the corporate media relentlessly and subliminally promoted Iraq as a/the culprit behind 9/11, brainwashing the nation and Gore would never have done that.

Gore may have attacked Afghanistan to root out Al Qaeda but he wouldn't have taken the war off the books, he's a logical and in many ways visionary technocrat.

zappaman

(20,606 posts)
61. And if Gore hadn't of picked a walking/talling douchebag for a running mate
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 09:15 PM
Sep 2014

and run away from all the good the Clinton administration did, the election might not have been close enough to steal!

madinmaryland

(64,931 posts)
64. You bring up a couple of interesting points.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 09:27 PM
Sep 2014

Gore really did pick a douchebag who couldn't even win a debate against himself. Also interesting is he ran away from a President who was still popular, whilst you look back to 1988, Bush #1 did not distance himself from a president who was not all there and was definitely tainted. Compare Bush #2 to Dukakis.

I completely agree that Gore would have had a much better shot at winning had he not shunned the Clenis.

Uncle Joe

(58,286 posts)
66. Gore chose his VP running mate with the same basic mentality as Lincoln did in choosing Johnson and
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 09:29 PM
Sep 2014

it wasn't Gore that sold Clinton down the river, it was the other way around.

zappaman

(20,606 posts)
69. Gore ran away from the policies of the Clinton administration
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 09:57 PM
Sep 2014

and never drove home the message of how he and Clinton lowered the deficit.
Gore was scared of the whole Monica fiasco and that's also why he chose dickhead as his running mate.

Uncle Joe

(58,286 posts)
73. Gore didn't "run away" from Clinton's policies. Clinton threw Gore under the bus on at least four
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 10:14 PM
Sep 2014

occasions.

1. Acting like a teenager with his hormones out of control and engaging in sexual activity with a young subordinate despite knowing the Republicans had been gunning for him since day 1 over "bimbo eruptions." This did nothing to help Gore in moderate to conservative purplish states.

2. Having Gore to go out there on the White House Lawn and testify to Clinton's "integrity" thus directly tying Gore to the scandal.

3. Getting on national television and directly lying to the people "I did not have sexual relations with that woman Monica Lewinsky" instead of manning and confessing or just keeping his mouth shut, this did nothing to help Gore when the truth came out.

4. Trying to make the 2000 Convention about Clinton instead of Gore by wasting what seemed like an eternity of precious national television prime time, letting the camera follow Clinton down the hallway just so the people could gaze at his beauty, instead of hauling his ass to the podium and promoting Gore. This only message that display sent to the American People was Clinton's hubris.

It was Clinton's own actions which most determined Gore's choice for a running mate because Lieberman was about the only Democrat that rightfully criticized Clinton for his behavior.

former9thward

(31,940 posts)
72. 9/11 would have happened.
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 10:12 PM
Sep 2014

Al Qaeda had attacked the Trade Center in 1993, the USS Cole, and blew up our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. All during the Clinton administration. The 9/11 operation was in the planning before Bush took over.

Regime change in Iraq was the official policy of the Clinton administration and Gore supported that.

Of course SC appointments would be different.

No economist ANYWHERE suggests there would be no deficit no matte who was president. If it had been less or not is imposbile to tell. The economic problems which set off the 2007-9 recession were long in coming and caused by many factors -- some of which are with us today.

madinmaryland

(64,931 posts)
74. Well...
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 10:43 PM
Sep 2014

Maybe 9/11 would have happened. If it would have happened, would we have invaded Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11? I seriously doubt it.

As for regime change, IIRC, it was more of a containment thing rather than regime change, because no one really wanted to go down the rabbit hole of regime change in Iraq. Even Bush #1 and his administration thought better of that.

As to Budget deficits, we actually had a surplus for a couple of years at the end of the Clinton administration. As soon as the Bush/Cheney misadministration was selected they systematically trashed the economy. That is a fact. You cannot go into a recession and start cutting taxes for the wealthy.

former9thward

(31,940 posts)
75. Not to beat a dead horse ...
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 10:51 PM
Sep 2014

But it was regime change.

The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 is a United States Congressional statement of policy calling for regime change in Iraq. It was signed into law by President Bill Clinton, and states that it is the policy of the United States to support democratic movements within Iraq. The Act was cited in October 2002 to argue for the authorization of military force against the Iraqi government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act

The main problem with the deficits is that we went into two wars and refused to pay for them. We should have passed a war tax which completely paid for the wars. If people did not want to do that, then pull the troops out.

madinmaryland

(64,931 posts)
76. Well..
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 11:05 PM
Sep 2014

The point of that act was to call attention to what was going on (or what was thought to be going on) in Iraq. IIRC, there was no real desire by the Clinton adminsitration to go into Iraq and do regime change.

As to your second comment, that is correct. Between the two wars a massive un-paid for tax cut, Bush #2 screwed this country. It was not the people that wanted to do that, it was the Military Industrial Complex and the Corporations of this country that wanted it to happen. Not the "people", unless you consider corporations to be people.

CBHagman

(16,981 posts)
78. I am not certain the administration would have prevented 9/11, but I can well imagine...
Fri Sep 12, 2014, 11:50 PM
Sep 2014

...Gore would have taken a completely different approach to national security. I recall how in the '90s the GOP loved to mock the Clinton administration for attempts to get Osama bin Laden.

And the front page of The New York Times of September 11th, 2001, contained a story about the Bush administration's cutbacks in counterterrorism efforts.

On edit: Of course a lot more would have been different, including appointments. However, the Republican leadership in Congress would have fought the Gore administration tooth and nail every step of the way. It's possible it would have been a one-term administration. But there would have been no Iraq War.

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