I was switched all the time as a kid.

[Are_grits_groceries]

My cousins were too. I am not defending it. It's another form of violence couched in a regional definition.

We had to pick our own switches. You learned to pick stiffer, less supple branches. They hurt less than the sting of the others which could act like whips. You survived less lashes if you hollered and acted as if it hurt like hell. It did hurt, but if you somehow conveyed you were oh so sorry by acting horribly wounded at the first blow and pleading, then it seemed to satisfy the elders most of the time.

Was I really sorry? I was sorry I got caught and was going to be switched. We all learned to be more devious and careful. AND you never narced on anybody if you got hurt in some way. You just planned your payback instead of turning the perpetrator over to the elders.

What was worse for me was the 'game' my Mama played. If she got real mad at me, she wouldn't talk to me and pretended not to know me. She would also act like she was going to leave me wherever we were at that moment. It could be a store, a friend's house, at a relative's, or by the side of a road. You want to terrify a little kid then try that. I still have nightmares occasionally about that.

Neither method is right. However, a branch from a bush is not embedded in my psyche.

[Heidi]

1. Both are abuse, in my experience and opinion.

I'm sorry you had to endure the physical abuse of the switchings and the emotional abuse, as well, but I'm glad you survived and that you're here, Are_grits_groceries.

[Are_grits_groceries]

4. I agree.

I wasn't trying to minimize switching. It's one more way adults can screw up kids and perpetuate violence.

[Heidi]

5. I know you weren't minimizing it.

I'm glad you started this thread. There are plenty of child abuse apologists on DU right now, but I know you're not one of them. Happy Sunday, Are_grits_groceries.

[merrily]

2. Being hit hard is very different from beiing hit until you have deep cuts and require medical

attention.

I am sorry any child has to go through any kind of suffering, you, me or that 4 year old. But I never needed to see a doctor after a beating.

[Are_grits_groceries]

3. I disagree.

Having to go to a doctor does show a more extreme beating. However, in the mind of a kid, especially a 4 year old, being attacked by your father is traumatic whether more medical attention is required or not.
I am just as concerned about the statements the kid made that Peterson hit him in the mouth and threatened him if the police were called. Those statements should be investigated because they indicate a deeper and more dangerous pathology at work.

[merrily]

6. We see it differently. I think that kid's beating is different from the

ones you and I got. And I don't think any of us gets to say what may harm that kid emotionally more, especially if we didn't need to see a doctor after a beating.

[Jenoch]

22. Just a point of fact.

The boy went to an already scheduled checkup in Minnesota and the doctor reported the injuries to social services.

[justiceischeap]

7. My childhood experiences

I never experienced the switch, my dad was fond of the belt... and didn't care which end he used. He also liked smacking and he liked to verbally berate us--especially if he had a bad day at work. I agree with you grits, it didn't stop our behavior it just made us better at getting away with it.

However, I think the worst "punishment" I got from him was the day he found cigarettes in my room (I was 11 or 12). He had me lay across the bed, had his belt in hand and I was sure this was the worst beating of all the beatings. In the end, he asked if I was ready and I said yes... he barely tapped my ass with that belt and walked out.

Everything he did to me as a kid has stuck with me but that one, that one seemed the worst of all the actual beatings.

And all beatings or "punishments" don't leave marks that need to be treated by medical doctors but for some people they leave marks that need to be treated in therapy--I don't advocate it because fearing a parent is different from respecting a parent and I think if you respect a parent, you aren't going to do things to lose that respect.

[pnwmom]

38. And some mean that the adult child wants nothing to do with the parent ever again,

though the parent might not know it because the adult does a good job of faking it -- unless and until he doesn't.

[TexasProgresive]

8. Of the several whippings I got growing up one stands out.

I never received many from family and this one was from the principal of the elementary school. My 5th to 6th grade class was moved from a rural school to one in town. There I was, a stranger, standing in the lunch line in the first week. 2 boys started scuffling behind me and shoved me into the kid in front. He must've woke up on the wrong side of the bed because he turned around ready to punch me out. I put up my fist to block a blow.

The upshot is that my action was seen by a teacher and I alone was sent to the principal's office. I was taken to the boiler room and given 3 swats with a wooden paddle. The bruises faded after a few weeks but what has never faded is a deep distrust of those in authority. I never take it for granted that they are acting correctly just because they have the power. Everyone starts out the same with me. If you act respectfully of others I will do the same. But if you have power over others I will be watching what you do,closely.

[4139]

9. My sister cut the buttons off most of our father's jackets and pants...

...and blamed ME! I got the belt big time!

[MoonRiver]

10. I got spankings and some switchings as a kid, but nothing that drew blood.

It was always at the hand of my mom. She would threaten to "tell daddy" but he never did anything. Never understood why she thought that was an effective strategy to make us behave. The spankings ended when I was about ten. Either I became more "socialized" or she just didn't think it was proper.

Like I said the spankings/switchings weren't too painful. I was very close to my mom as an adult so I don't think the punishments put a huge dent in my psyche. I do think the severity of capital punishment is a huge factor it how well children fare as adults. There has to be a lot of other good stuff going on or therapy to cope with the effects of severe abuse.

Corporal punishment also existed in my elementary school and maybe my junior high. I was basically a well behaved kid, so never met up with the principal's paddle. School spankings were common back then and very, very wrong imo.

Grits so sorry about what sounds like a very difficult childhood. No little kid should have to endure that.

[HereSince1628]

11. You don't have the stick in your psyche, but, you mentioned

"We all learned to be more devious and careful. AND you never narced on anybody if you got hurt in some way. You just planned your payback instead of turning the perpetrator over to the elders."

And it makes me wonder how much of -that- is still in your psyche? Because if you learned those behaviors as you say you did, as a consequence of getting switched, the consequences of the switching may still be with you.

I'm not saying that you have a problem with these things, I don't know you at all. I just wonder about why you said what you said and how true you think that is.

Because, the effects of growing up in an abusive or neglectful circumstance are varied; becoming educated about issues of trust, anticipation of hostile behaviors, and general strategies on how to survive in an abusive environment are also among the possible consequences of abuse. Those lessons can be carried for a long time.

Behavioral psych people commonly say that lessons that provided survival advantage as a child in a hostile environment can contribute to interpersonal dysfunction in later life.

[Are_grits_groceries]

12. Oh I have no doubt that the switchings left

some mark in my inner mind. I have more difficulty identifying what those marks are.

I KNOW the threat of leaving me left its mark. I learned never to trust 'love'. So I leave and have left first.

[HereSince1628]

13. I think members of our society are vulnerable to discounting such things

in arguments framed "I was whipped as a child, and I turned out OK".

I suspect people who say such things are mostly expecting the damage to be a Godzilla-sized fire-breathing monster in their life. It is more likely to be insidious little gremlins working on the levers of our behavioral choices.

[Are_grits_groceries]

15. I think you are right.

People lock a lot away which isn't healthy because it can build up. In addition, they may unconsciously use the same methods or coping mechanisms without recognizing it. Hopefully, it doesn't sabotage them too much.

[HipChick]

14. I was very devious a a kid

rarely got spanked..but my sister was a handful and out of control...she got the belt..a lot...it didn't help,she still made poor choices in her life

[oberliner]

19. What is happening in that little video?

I missed the story behind that one.

[librechik]

41. "Rob Ford looks at food"

it's all right there.

[Glitterati]

16. I never understood

how anyone thinks

don't *thwack* hit *thwack* your *thwack* sister

was an effective way to teach a child not to hit. Clearly, do as I say and not as I do.

So this football player beat the hell out of his kid for pushing another kid. OK, that was an effective lesson (NOT).

[Le Taz Hot]

25. One that never made sense to me was,

"Shut up that cryin' or I'll give you something to cry about!" And if you didn't shut up, THWACK! Yeah, terrify the kid even more, that'll larn 'em and will certainly get them to stop crying. The worst was when they'd cover up my mouth to stifle the cries/screams and, since my nose was stopped up from crying, nearly passing out because I just flat couldn't breath. Some people should not be within 500 miles of a child.

[malaise]

17. So were many of my friends

and some express the view that it made them disciplined obedient children.
I abhor all forms of violence.

[HereSince1628]

20. Which is one of the problems with interpreting violence from within a culture

that accepts adult/parent-on-child violence and 'excepts' it from judgements of wrong-doing.

We make judgements with regard to cultural 'norms'. When normal is violent... well, let's just say abuse must meet even more horrific standard to be called such.

[malaise]

23. That's a profound observation

[oberliner]

18. Can relate to you about the "games" and mental cruelty

Unfortunately, it's a lot harder (probably impossible) to get a conviction of child abuse based on those acts of mental cruelty and emotional abuse.

[Paladin]

21. If perfect strangers treated one another the way "loving" families act....

...this planet would be completely free of the human race in a matter of years.

[Pisces]

24. 90% of the population of the 80"s and back would be in jail according to some on this board. Also

90% of the people have some mental abnormality because they were paddled, spanked, or whipped. There is abuse and
then there is a spanking. 90% of the people who experienced this at home or at school are not in need of therapy.
I think we diminish true abuse when we swing so far to the left and label everything from a small swat to the belt as
abuse. People naturally become defensive because most of our parents spanked us.

With hindsight and our modern perspective we can call it abuse, but while living it back in those times I don't think anybody would have called it child abuse.

[Le Taz Hot]

26. Please,

cite your source(s).

Thanks,

LTH

[Pisces]

27. Here are 2 links, oh and what surprised me is that 90% still spank their kids today.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/newsroom/harrispolls/tabid/447/ctl/readcustom%20default/mid/1508/articleid/1283/default.aspx

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/newsroom/harrispolls/tabid/447/ctl/readcustom%20default/mid/1508/articleid/1283/default.aspx

There are many more sources these were the first two on google. I was being sarcastic to those on the board that claim
spanking causes mental damage even including a swat on the butt. I think we are diminishing true child abuse.


Here is the Huffpo link

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/claire-mccarthy-md/spanking_b_1608747.html

[Le Taz Hot]

31. Your claim was that, "90% of the population of the 80"s and back would be in jail according to some"

when nobody claimed that (you provided no citation for that claim in terms of a direct DU link).

Further, you claim that, "90% of the people who experienced this at home or at school are not in need of therapy."

The first two links you provided had to do with raw statistics, nothing about people needing therapy.

The second link affirms what all of us have been trying to tell people who are child-abuse apologists that severe damage is done to children due to being assaulted by a trusted adult, regardless of severity. There have been MANY studies that affirm this and many have been cited on this board. Feel free to look those up.

[Feral Child]

28. Just curious

are you a "spanker"?

Just because nobody back then would have "called" it abuse, doesn't mean that it wasn't. A lot of doctors in that time period smoked tobacco.

That's the point of being a progressive, progressing.

[Pisces]

29. I am not defending spanking. How obtuse can some be. THere is a difference between abuse and

spanking. And here is a link for you, 90% still spank their kids in some form.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/claire-mccarthy-md/spanking_b_1608747.html

[Feral Child]

33. Thanks for the link

but I'm not going to bother. If 90% spank, then nine out of ten are wrong.

I'm not obtuse, I assure you. The only distinction or difference between "spanking" and "abuse" is scale, and I wondered what you think is permissible. You haven't really answered that question, you responded with an insult. Please be aware that I didn't ask if you abuse anyone, I asked if you, yourself, have spanked a child. Since you aver that spanking is not abuse, I fail to see why you failed to answer.

You say you're not defending spanking, yet you insist it doesn't amount to abuse. It apparently lies in some gray, undefined area, and it seems that you don't think it's wrong, ergo you are defending the practice. It's a default thing: if you don't condemn it, you condone it.

Spanking is violence. Violence against a child teaches it to fear. Perhaps that fear becomes sublimated or suppressed. It's still a fearful incident when the child becomes aware that a parent is capable of violence towards it.

You and I will never agree on this subject and you may certainly raise your children in whatever way you feel is appropriate.

Feel free to rebut this post. I don't really want to engage in discussing this topic any further, so I won't reply. I don't enjoy being insulted.

[phil89]

35. If 90% do it

Then it's ok?

[CBGLuthier]

30. and 10 percent of us (more really) say you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

If you think the daily switchings and beatings with a belt are just motherfucking piffle to be shrugged off and we should all man up then you are out of your fucking mind.

Some of us are damaged because our parents were savages. So glad you do not know what we are talking about but since you don't know what we are talking about perhaps you should STFU.

[LiberalElite]

32. My mother did hit me

on the arms or backside. It wasn't a beating. Just a smack or two if she thought my behavior warranted it. The only time I remember was when I ran ahead of her and crossed a street without looking for traffic. It was a side street with a stop sign, not a multi-laned two-way. I remained on the corner feeling very pleased with myself, waiting for her to catch up. Then I got it.

[RebelOne]

34. I was never switched,

but I had very long hair that my mother would to braid every day, and twice she broke a hair brush over my head because I did not hold still while she was braiding. Then when I was a teenager I was sneaking a smoke in my bedroom. She walked in and caught me. There was a curtain rod on the floor which she picked up and hit me with it. I still have a scar on my leg.

[Spirochete]

36. I got whipped a lot as a kid

switches, belts - you name it. There was a piano wire loop with a handle, even. (I think I ended up hiding that one).
Then the whippings stopped. That pissed me off, because they were abandoned in favor of grounding and loss of privileges. That I didn't like, and would whine "C'mon - that's not fair. You're not playing the game right. You're supposed to hit me this many times for doing this wrong thing. let's go back to that." Didn't work. They figured out switching was ineffective, because I didn't much care, but I did hate being grounded, so that was a much more effective punishment. I would bet spanking seldom accomplishes it's purpose with anyone. a little of it may be needed for very young children to communicate to them that certain things are a no-no - such as poking a fork into the wall sockets, etc. But that's about it. Other than that, spanking is mostly for parents revenge on their kids, and serves no other purpose.

[Liberal_in_LA]

37. parents didnt know better. now they should all know better and cut that crap out

[senseandsensibility]

39. My mom said her mother made them pick their own switches

from a tree. If they were going to be switched, she said, "Go pick a switch." When she told about it, I could tell the words terrorized her and her siblings. I am glad that she never repeated this with me or my brother.

[BlindTiresias]

40. Yeah :(

At one point I was hit so often and severely I would involuntarily wince if someone made a motion towards me. I wasn't even a bad kid, the reasons for hitting were manufactured 95% of the time.