Bernie Sanders: Presidential Run Is Not About Hillary, It’s About The ‘Collapsing’ Middle Class

[Purveyor]

Scott Kaufman
14 Sep 2014

Senator Bernie Sanders (I-Vermont) indicated on Meet the Press today that he would seriously consider running for president in 2016, even if that required him to switch his party affiliation to Democrat.

“The truth is, profound anger at both political parties, more and more people are becoming independent,” he began.

However, “the issue of whether you run as an independent, with the necessity of setting up a fifty-state infrastructure, running as a Democrat, that’s something that I’m looking at,” he continued.

Host Chuck Todd asked whether his running would necessarily be a criticism of Hillary Clinton’s record or policies.

“I don’t know that Hillary is running,” Sanders replied. “I don’t know what she’s running on. I know that the middle class in this country is collapsing. I know that the gap between the very, very rich and everybody else is growing wider. There’s profound anger at the greed on Wall Street, anger at the media establishment. The American people want real change. I have been taking on the big money and special interests all of my political life.”

more...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/blog/2014/09/14/bernie-sanders-presidential-run-is-not-about-hillary-its-about-the-collapsing-middle-class/

Bernie Sanders On MTP Video Clip:

[Louisiana1976]

1. Sanders should run as a Democrat in the primaries. I'd vote for him over Hillary, who is to the

right of Obama. But he should not run as an Independent in the election. He'd split the Democratic vote and do the same thing for Hillary that Nader did for Gore in 2000.

[Purveyor]

2. I hope he does. I don't agree with him but on only a few issues and he would indeed

get my vote unless President Carter declares (lol). Hillary will not get my vote either in the primary or general, I'll leave that race blank on my ballot.

[Veilex]

3. "Hillary will not get my vote either in the primary or general" - Ditto

[pnwmom]

5. You'll just take your toys and leave the sandbox. How mature of you.

Because, of course, Hillary would be just as bad as Ted Cruise or Ben Carson (the annointed-by-God candidate) or Paul Ryan. Right.

[Veilex]

9. My vote, my choice, none of yours. Full stop.

"How mature of you" - and denigrating someone else's choice is soooo much more mature.

I will NOT vote for HRC. I will cast my vote for someone I think would actually be good for the country... such as Bernie sanders.
I'd vote for Elizabeth Warren over Bernie, were she running, but she's not.

Bottom line; I will not support HRC. You don't have to like it...and I don't have to justify myself to you.

[pnwmom]

14. If it's the general, deciding not to vote for the Dem is a boost for the Rethug, whoever he is,

because that's one less vote he has to counter.

Of course you don't have to justify myself to you. And you can't justify that to me -- or to anyone else who can do basic arithmetic -- on the basis of logic. For some reason, you've decided to let your emotions get the better of you; and you're right, that's your choice.

[ZombieHorde]

19. That is only true if the voter

doesn't live in a red or blue state, since the votes in those states are pretty much already determined. Those who live purple states determine elections.

I live in Montana. No matter whom I vote for my electoral vote is going to the Republican nominee. I don't really have a Presidential vote.

[Veilex]

23. +1 - Hey, stop that!

You're talking sense! We can't have that here!
You MUST vote HRC, else you're just being an over-emotional child who's letting the GOP win!

Its like you want to think for yourself or something!

You're not being a very good Zombie-horde...just sayin

[merrily]

91. Fortunately for me, I have the opposite situation.

I live in Massachusetts. Apart from Eisenhower and Reagan, Massachusetts goes blue on the President. The only state to go for McGovern, which helped give it the rep of the bluest state. It seems to like Republican governors but the legislature is over 90% dem, so the Governor doesn't have a whole lot of say unless he or she convinces the legislature (Romney and Kennedy convincing the legislature is how we got Romneycare).

I can very safely write in Godzilla, if I were that silly.

[merrily]

92. PS. Presidentials come down to about a dozen counties, not even states.

Problem is, they are not always the same counties in every Presidential.

[Veilex]

20. "you can't justify that to me" - Wrong. I don't need to.

"you've decided to let your emotions get the better of you" - Wrong again, but once more, I don't have to justify myself to you.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

83. well, I SURE hope you're going to vote in the Nov. midterms.

And, I really really really hope you'll vote a straight democratic ticket.

The house right now is actually more important than 2016 presidential vote.

Look, I realize this is just my perspective, but from my vantage point this isn't only a matter of principles.

I wish we all had the luxury of staying true to our values, really. As progressives, our values are the last barrier protecting the world...if I were a bible person, I'd say us, "the meek" .....but, anyway, I mean us regular folk, trying to be just, be kind, be smart, be respectful of people, "who are different than ourselves" . Us people trying to do something positive for the planet, the creatures, the people because we understand that we're all connected.

But then, there are also, really and truly, the most evil people aligned against us, and everything we cherish; global survival, even. That's not exaggeration, as I'm sure you're aware.

Actually, as Hilary herself put it, years ago: there is a VAST right-wing conspiracy. You don't have to like her one little bit to know that she hit that nail on the head.

I seriously hope you'll assess each situation, as each comes along, and act wisely. Which might mean having to weigh your decision and understand strategy.

Think of the ramifications of your decision- - a year, 2 years, 5 years ahead. At least choose the least harmful option, if it comes to that, but please don't hand anything over to the worst people in the world.

[Veilex]

84. You were on target when you said "this isn't only a matter of principles".

Fact of the matter is this: The SCOTUS is going to be up for grabs very soon. The next sitting president will have an enormous play in who's selected for that. If HRC is elected, we will, without any doubt whatsoever, get another pro-business buddy for Antonin Scalia.

This is a fight for the SCOTUS and for the very soul of our democracy. I WILL NOT give my vote to someone who has proven she is out for herself and big corporations... and not the people.

I will vote for Bernie Sanders, as I have said, if he runs. I don't care if he wears the holy-sacred "D" or not.
He has my vote.
That's all there is to it.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

85. first get your ass to the midterms.

Right now, that is the priority.

[merrily]

93. Any DUer who is eligible to vote and does not vote

should stop posting here. JMO

There's always an absentee ballot if you can't stand on line or have to work or travel.

[Veilex]

95. "Any DUer who is eligible to vote and does not vote should stop posting here"

Agreed... though, I'd take it a step further if I could: There should be a federal holiday for voting... maybe even a weekend.

[merrily]

97. That would work for national elections, but not local.

And an absentee ballot should be readily available. It used to be a pain to get one in my state, even though it is a blue state. A man terminally ill in a nursing home, now deceased, was being required to mail in a doctor's letter with every request for a ballot because he said he was too sick to go to the polls.

His wife visited him every day, but was too tired to keep fighting city hall, literally. I took the fight to the Secretary of State's office, who would claim the city should be sending the man a ballot automatically, but was not intervening with the city.

I don't know if I had anything to do with it, but getting an absentee ballot in the mail before every election is no longer annoying in my city.

[Veilex]

99. I'd like to thank you for taking an active roll in helping to make that change.

We need a lot more people willing to do exactly that... particularly for those who're having a hard time defending themselves.
Even if you were not the catalyst, you still helped push action in the right direction.

[merrily]

102. I hope I had something to do with it, but I do not know.

Thing is, I rode the bus with that poor woman every day. I was going home; she was going to the nursing home. She was so sad and exhausted. So, even though they were very active citizens before he got sick, she just gave up on going through the drill of getting a doctor's letter every time. Terminally ill does not improve over time. One doctor's letter saying that should have sufficed. Hell, the return address on the envelope being a nursing home should have sufficed.

[MynameisBlarney]

132. Agreed.

These midterms expecially...it's vital that we vote.

[Veilex]

98. No worries there.

I may not advocate HRC, but I always vote.

I'm a little bit of a civics geek that way.

[merrily]

100. Responsible citizens vote.

Don't need to be a geek.

[Veilex]

101. True.

But then, being a geek just means you enthusiastically enjoy what you do... and, well, I do!

[merrily]

104. Well then, I must be a voting geek too. I love primary and election days.

Now, out-geek this: I have a red, white and blue coffee cup I use on election days. Just my private celebration.

[Veilex]

131. okay...

I enlisted into the US Army. When my enlistment was up, I took a job doing armed security for a navy base & navy hospital.
Ever since I initially got involved with the military, I've been virtually addicted to civics... to the point where I've considered looking into running for office (haven't tried...yet).

I suppose that's a bit broader than being a voting geek... but it does a nice job of detailing out some of where my sense of civic duty comes from.

[merrily]

135. LOL! You could have stopped after "I enlisted in the U.S. Army."

Enlisting in the military very easily trumps my coffee cup. Nolo contendere.

This is definitely the time for former military to run, either as a Republican or as a Democrat, but maybe especially as a Democrat. Congress? Some state office? Have you talked to anyone in your state's Dem Party?

You might try chatting up brooklynite via private message. He's connected with the DNC. So is Skinner, for that matter. Either of them might be able to tell you where to start, if you have not already done so.

Don't forget me when you're President, though.

[Veilex]

137. Truthfully, I havent gotten that far...

In part because I've been working on a small entertainment business start up...
That and my significant other dislikes politics.
Much as I am interested in civics, she is my number one priority.
So, I likely won't be running without an explicit statement from her to go for it.

[merrily]

149. Well, supposedly Colin Powell's wife didn't want him to run, either and

supposedly, that was the reason that he did not run. So, you are in lofty miitary company (rank-wise, anyway. He's not on any pedestal of mine.)

I love start ups. Best wishes with it.

[Veilex]

156. Thanks!

I kinda got tired of how much anti-social behavior is on "social media", so I thought I'd make a game company that helps bring people back together.

That and I realized a while back that corporations often end up with way too much power due to their resources... so I thought I'd see about getting one going and use it as a force for good... kinda like Credo Mobile http://www.credomobile.com/.

If everything goes according to plan, we'll have a Kickstarter campaign by the end of next month. I find both exhilarating and terrifying, all at the same time.

[merrily]

161. Then, you are a true entrepreneur, for I think this is

how all true entrepreneurs feel.

I find both exhilarating and terrifying, all at the same time.

That, plus a solid business plan and a good accountant will go a long way.

[Scootaloo]

54. Maybe Democratic candidates need to stop acting like Republicans

Maybe slapping a "D" next to thuggish right-wing neoconservatives is enough for you. Actually I KNOW it's enough for you. But it's not enough for those of us who vote out of principle, forethought, and concern for what that vote means.

[Scuba]

117. +1

[Veilex]

133. +1

[grahamhgreen]

109. Historically, yes. But if Sen Sanders has the numbers to win, is vote independent as well.

[pnwmom]

94. You'd rather throw your vote away on a candidate who can't win than vote for someone

who doesn't meet all your strict standards.

People who believe no loaf is better than half a loaf end up starving.

[FlatStanley]

166. You seem to think that hacking off four fingers is better than hacking off five fingers.

I choose to keep all my digits.

[lark]

140. I'm not a big Hillary fan.

However, would you leave your vote blank in effect voting for Perry/Mittens/Rand or whoever? I knew Obama was a corporatist and covering up for the BFEE the 2nd time around and making a mockery of privacy and I voted for him anyway. I will hold my nose and vote for Hillary if she's the Dem. candidate because she's better than batshit crazy. She's way too militaristic for me and too soft on big $$, but once again, she's still better than the Repug alternative.

[Veilex]

143. "she's still better than the Repug alternative" - And this logic here is exactly how the Kochs win

If you take someone who is a republican through and through, and someone else who is just a few shades off from being republican through and through, it no longer matters who you vote for.

"she's better than batshit crazy" - and Bernie is a hell of a lot better than her.

I will vote for Bernie.

[pnwmom]

4. So if Hillary is running against Ted Cruise or Ben Carson, God's chosen candidate,

you just won't bother voting because there's no difference between them and her?

And you consider yourself a progressive. Wow.

[Purveyor]

7. Yeah...wow. If the Party can't nominate a 'progressive' why should I cast a vote

for the 'other', i.e. clinton. A 'progressive' she in NOT.

[Veilex]

12. +1

[ballyhoo]

22. +1000

[Scootaloo]

55. Exactly

I refuse to "settle."

[Veilex]

134. +100000

[woo me with science]

116. +100000

We have trained the pols that they can assault us and still have our votes. It's time to untrain them that.

[Kilgore]

168. Hillary the Borg is part of the collective.....

Which brought such hits as the Third Way.

[rhett o rick]

86. Ah yes, the lesser of evils manipulation that some of you fall for. The PTB want H. Clinton and have

figured out how to manipulate some into voting for her. She will not save the middle class and you know it. If you want Ted Cruise then you nominate H. Clinton. It's on you. She has zero integrity. She helped George Bush invade Iraq and is a good friend of the Bush Family. She is on the Goldman-Sachs payroll, but you don't care a bit what kind of person she is as long as she has a "D" behind her name. That's all that matters. Sorry but Homey don't play that game.

[Scuba]

118. +1

[JDPriestly]

107. I'm with you, Purveyor.

[MynameisBlarney]

130. That's a silly thing.

If my only choice is Hillary or whichever moron the GOTP tries to foist onto us, I'll GLADLY vote for Hillary.
Not voting is not an option for me.

[ballyhoo]

17. I'd vote for him too, although I adamantly disagree

with him on ISIS.

[Scootaloo]

56. Having watched his delivery on Thom hartmann...

He's saying IS is something that needs to be dealt with. That is true.
He said that barging forward to "look tough" as the prior administration did is not the way to do it. THat is also true.
He said he want our plan of action to be well-thought and considered. I can't disagree with him there.
And he said that no matter what, the republicans will attack Obama over it either way. also true.

sanders has not - as far as I know - actually endorsed the specific plan put forth by Obama, except to loosely praise it above what Bush would have done. he hasn't said that bombing the hell out of north iraq is magically going to solve problems. he hasn't backed up the president'splan against Syria, he hasn't endorsed the bocking-off of syria and Iran in th effort against IS. He's only said "well, Bush would have done way worse."

If he does - or has - come out in support of such ideas, well.. he's wrong. He's allowed to be wrong about stuff, and his position economics, social issues, and most foreign policy issues aligns with my own enough that I'm not ready to thow him under the bus for being wrong on this issue, if so.

[ballyhoo]

60. Tell you what, Scootaloo, read this (or as much as you can) and

then get back to me, if you want. I don't know the website but I think the dude knows Seymour Hirsch. Whatever you think is fine me though. Everyone sees things differently, particularly on this board.

http://nationbuilders.thenation.com/profiles/blogs/america-isis-and-syria-we-have-to-bomb-the-jihadis-in-order-to

[Scootaloo]

63. I could have written much of that blog post myself.

In fact I'm pretty sure I've raised many of the same points here on DU (though I actually hadn't been able to make a clear Israel connection that doesn't just sound like"because Israel" - no one's perfect.)

My point is that Sanders seems to have stopped shy of actual endorsement of Obama's plan on this particular issue.

[ballyhoo]

70. It's too late now and I have to feed my dogs, but tomorrow if you

get the chance can you post a reference showing that Bernie is doing what you said in your second paragraph. Would make me feel more confident. Bernie Sanders is the only one I haven't written off. If you can't that is fine too. Good night. Is that Bambi or a young rooster?

[Scootaloo]

73. Here's the video

Some posters have been trying to claim it's a full-throttle endorsement of the president. it's not. It's an endorsement of the idea that we need to do something, but sanders really doesn't jump in with the president - he doesn't criticize the plan, but he doesn't jump for it, either. it's very... hedge-y. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

And neither. It's a pony. Named Scootaloo.

[FlatStanley]

88. Fun fact: Gore won Florida.

[Old Crow]

6. I love Bernie

He's one of the few politicians who is actually a leader. He stands for something. What a concept, right?

[Veilex]

13. Bernie is pretty damn awsome.

I do foresee the GOP attacking him based on age though.

The GOP's never been above age discrimination.

[Old Crow]

15. Hadn't considered that, but I'm sure you're right.

For my own education, I did a little fact-gathering.

Bernie's age: 73 (as of six days ago; birthday is Sept. 8)
McCain's age: 78 (as of Aug. 29)
Reagan's age when elected 1st term: 69*
Reagan's age when elected 2nd term: 73

*Oldest elected president in U.S. history.

[Veilex]

25. Interesting!

Thanks for sharing

[MissDeeds]

27. Yeah, and Reagan, 'the great communicator'

was a wee bit elderly, and Pat Roberts, who is running - again - for the Senate in Kansas is 78. Of course, we're not supposed to to mention that.

[Veilex]

35. Nice catch!

I wouldn't have caught that bit about Pat Roberts!

Thanks for that!

[MissDeeds]

40. Glad to help

[TheNutcracker]

8. Check out this thread here on DU and get on board! with a K&R

[RoccoR5955]

10. Run, Berine, Run!

I hope he runs. He's got my vote by a mile!

[Enthusiast]

11. Yay, Bernie!

We must have an advocate for the people that are getting screwed!

We must have a candidate that doesn't cheer lead for trade deals and supply side economics.

Just say no to HRC!

[MissDeeds]

42. + a zillion n/t

[DrBulldog]

16. Please Bernie ....

... please give me any good excuse to NOT vote for Hillary.

[hack89]

18. It is way too late

He doesn't have the money, organization or resources to run a national campaign. It would be entertaining to watch him debate Hillary but that assumes he can get on enough state ballots to be considered a "real" candidate.

[joshcryer]

89. Nah, liberals have an appetite for a liberal.

Sanders would have a huge support base from the 10-20% of anti-Clinton liberals. He might even be able to get a state or two.

Come primary time though he'd be destroyed by Clinton.

[hack89]

114. If he is merely an anti-Hilary candidate

Last edited Mon Sep 15, 2014, 01:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Then he has no chance at all.

[Veilex]

136. He's been consistently far more people empowerment than HRC

She wants to give more powers and abilities to the corporations she's already schmoozing.
He wants to re invest power and rights back to the people.

This makes it a very clear choice on who to vote for.

[hack89]

139. Except Hillary has widespread support among Dems

I question the logic that somehow Bernie will come along, shine a bright light on all her sins and her support will just disappear. She is a known quantity, warts and all, and is still extremely popular. Bernie is another Kucinich - another political unknown that is picked as the progressive standard bearer because a small minority cannot stomach a centrist Dem.

[Veilex]

142. "She is a known quantity, warts and all" - and that's her downfall.

The GOP has an extensive play book to use against her. Everything starting from back when Bill was in office. Every single thing they brought up when she ran the first time. All of it will come screaming back.
The GOP will absolutely eviscerate her.

Add to that only 54 percent of Americans view her favorably... and that's without the continual rush of attack adds that will be launched at her.

Bernie Sanders, on the other hand, is popular not only with Dems and progressives, but with conservatives as well. Add to that, he has virtually no political baggage for the GOP to use against him.

You're right. HRC is a known quantity...it is known she will be in the back pocket of her corporate buddies.
She's not a centrist... she's a sell out.

We don't need that, we need an actual representative of the people... and that is Bernie Sanders.

[hack89]

148. She has a 90% favorably rating among Democrats

Last edited Mon Sep 15, 2014, 08:04 PM - Edit history (1)

and a 50% rating among independents. Obama's ratings before the 2012 elections were 79% and 37% respectively.

Hillary is in a historically strong position regardless of what mud repukes sling.

You would have to supply some links before I accept your premise that Bernie is popular nationally. Gallup certainly has nothing on him beyond state polls.

Don't let fear govern your choices - we know the repukes fight dirty. That is not reason to turn tail.

[Veilex]

162. No link with your stats?

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/08/poll-hillary-clinton-2016-110009.html

"Don't let fear govern your choices - we know the repukes fight dirty. That is not reason to turn tail."
You misunderstand if you think I'm not willing to vote for Hillary out of fear... its disgust... not fear.

her (HRC) corruption has been chiefly in service to big Republican donors. Ever since her husband entered the White House in 1993 with that strategy, it has been the dominant strategy for major Democratic Presidential aspirants; Hillary's corruption in shaping her health-care plan to benefit the private HMO industry, and Bill's corruption shaping his deregulation of Wall Street to benefit Citigroup and other Wall Street titans, has been a winning political strategy.

Here's a whole laundry list of just SOME of the reasons why I'm disgusted with and won't vote for HRC.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/why-hillary-clinton-shoul_b_4293469.html

[hack89]

164. They are from the same Gallup poll you quoted

Last edited Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:18 AM - Edit history (1)

You have the link already.

Vote for whoever you wish. I doubt it will matter much.

[Veilex]

169. You're confused...

the link I posted does not give HRC a 50% favorability rating.

"Vote for ever you wish" - I will. You can count on that

[hack89]

170. Didn't say you posted the link

I said they came from the same poll and assumed you had actually read it - perhaps that was a mistake. If you didn't cherry pick polls and looked at what they say in their entirety you wouldn't have this problem.

[Veilex]

184. I read it and didn't see the statistic you claim is there.

However, I'm not one to assume I've got a corner on information...hence why I asked for a link.
But, then, I think cherry-picking might be a projection on your part.

Feel free to enlighten or don't. In this case, it's your credibility on the line. Not mine.

[hack89]

185. I don't think you looked very hard

http://www.gallup.com/poll/171290/smaller-majority-americans-view-hillary-clinton-favorably.aspx

[Veilex]

186. "I don't think you looked very hard" - or perhaps confirmation bias got in the way.

I'm certainly not immune. But I'm also willing to admit I'm wrong... so thank you for posting that link.

[hack89]

187. Not a problem. nt

[grahamhgreen]

110. He's got my money:)

[hack89]

115. There are not enough of you to make a difference.

His appeal is very limited - right now he appears to merely be the anti-Hilary candidate.

[NorthCarolina]

119. You can keep hoping that, but in the end I believe you will find

that his appeal is far broader than the image you are attempting to paint. I don't believe simply playing down his "appeal", or the usual mantra of "he has no chance" will fly for your camp this time. The political climate has shifted immensely in this country, and the ground is falling out beneath the Conservative Dems and their GOP counterparts.

Bernie speaks to the average citizen because he truly understands them, plain and simple, and their numbers are far greater than you care to acknowledge.

I know the DLC camp is likely still formulating avenues of attack and that these are just way early off the shelf anti-Liberal salvos, however I think they will have to do far better than these to have any effect (other than comedic):

"Not enough of us to make a difference"

Over 50 milliion Americans live at or below the poverty line. Bernie understands these voters and their plight and can speak directly to their needs, whereas the GOP and Conservative Dems are best at pretending they don't exist. Oh, I'm sure we'll be treated to the obligatory campaign picture of Hillary standing in a checkout line at the Piggly Wiggly to show "connection with the common man" while simultaneously clueless of the cost of a gallon of milk, but I seriously doubt these tired gimmicks will suffice this go around.

"His appeal is very limited"

I'll just offer you this:

(2012): "Vermont, one of the most refreshingly unconventional politicians in America was coasting toward re-election with a campaign that broke all the rules. A week before the election, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders had run no attack ads. In fact, he hadn’t run any TV commercials. He was still speaking in full sentences, not soundbites; still inviting voters to ask complicated questions on controversial issues—and still answering with big, bold proposals to address climate change, really reform healthcare with a single-payer “Medicare for All” program, steer money away from the Pentagon and toward domestic jobs initiatives, and counter the threat of plutocracy posed by Citizens United by amending the Constitution. Rejecting the empty partisanship of the pre-election frenzy, Sanders was ripping the austerity agenda of Romney and Paul Ryan, while warning that Obama and too many Democrats were inclining toward an austerity-lite “grand bargain” that would make debt reduction a greater priority than saving Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

And Sanders was winning—big."

"he appears to merely be the anti-Hilary candidate"

If by that statement you mean the "anti-establishment" candidate, then you may be correct on that one. However, there appears to be a heavy dose of ant-status quo going about lately and on not only this board, but twitter, facebook, and most interactive social sites. If I were in the status-quo Hillary camp, I would be quite worried as anti-Wall Street politician fever is quite contagious.

[grahamhgreen]

176. No. His appeal he got Medicare for all in Vermont. Burlington is now 100% renewable energy. He audit

-ed the Fed.

Etc.

Has nothing to do with Hillary.

[hack89]

178. And he still has no name recognition, no money, no organization

I understand his appeal - that doesn't mean he is a viable presidential candidate.

[grahamhgreen]

180. I bet you agree with his position that health care is a RIGHT:)

[hack89]

182. I agree with many of his positions

especially regarding health care. I just don't think he has a snowballs chance in hell of being president. He is the next stop after Warren for those who cannot stomach a centrist Dem like Hillary.

[grahamhgreen]

183. His policy positions are great! Remember Obama, he beat the odds too.

[NorthCarolina]

174. Mine too.

Side note: I can't help but notice throughout this thread that virtually ALL of the rabid pro-Hillary, anti-Liberal Bernie despising crowd all have HUGE, and I mean HUGE, post counts. I can only wonder if these folks are actually just your average Joe/Josephine sitting at their desk writing what their thoughts, or if there is something more malicious going on. Something scripted, something with an agenda. Curious.

[grahamhgreen]

177. Scripted personas for sure. Note how they frame the debate as bernie vs Hill, instead if on the

Issues

[NorthCarolina]

179. Sure, because "on the issues" Bernie wins. Can't permit that discussion to ensue.

Better to just resort to character assassination and belittling in the hopes it will suffice to cause "doubt", and then double down by threatening a GOP win if Dems don't toe the line and elect the anointed corporate candidate.

[NRaleighLiberal]

21. Voting for president Obama twice was exciting. Voting for Bernie would be exciting as well. K&R

[CentralMass]

24. I would vote for Bernie Sanders.

[VanillaRhapsody]

26. awww this will hurt some folks feelings....

Bernie IS NOT A Democrat...and it is against TOS to support him as such.

[BlueCaliDem]

29. I believe, in their excitement at the prospect of not having to vote for Hillary Clinton,

they forgot that they're supporting an Independent - which, as you correctly point out, is against ToS rules.

Until he's declared himself that he'll run as a Democrat, DUers shouldn't support Senator Sanders for president.

[VanillaRhapsody]

32. Exactly....I do believe these are the dregs that come here just to start trouble....

they don't really give rats ass one way or the other...

[BlueCaliDem]

38. I've read similar posts on other sites like the anti-HRC ones on this thread alone.

In fact, I had corresponded with one in Texas during the 2008 presidential campaign. He had such a hatred for HRC ... called her "Billary", and stated that he'd never vote for her. Not in a million years. Later I discovered that he voted for McCain and Palin, but he acted as if he was going to vote for Senator Obama. In fact, he went as far as to say that he voted for Senator Obama in the primaries. I don't know if he had, but then I read his blog where he proudly stated that although the "war hero" and the "popular female governor" didn't win, he was proud to have cast his vote for them. This coming from a guy who lives off of SSI and what his sisters gave him every week.

[VanillaRhapsody]

39. Perfect example.....

[Purveyor]

30. Start 'alerting then' and notify MIRT. This place will get damn quiet and lonely in a hurry, indeed

after THAT purge.

Hell, this thread only is already up to 40+ recs in the short time it has been up.

Make sure you include rec'ers in your alert too!

[VanillaRhapsody]

33. Why do YOU think there is a shortage of REAL Democrats on DU?

there is no shortage of trolls either....

[Purveyor]

34. Are you calling me a 'troll'? eom

[VanillaRhapsody]

36. I don't know....you tell me....

if you support an Independent on DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND.....what would YOU call it?

[Purveyor]

41. One that has a potential progressive candidate that may become a democratic candidate to

run in the 2016 Presidential race.

Is that a 'troll' to you? If so...say it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

43. this is also not Progressive Underground....but you can start that blog if you want...

Rand Paul is probably going to run too...should HE be allowed to be supported on Democratic Underground too?

And what would you call HIS supporters on DU?

[Purveyor]

45. OK. You are slipping off the rail now so I'll let you have the last illogical word

here.

Have a nice evening...

[VanillaRhapsody]

46. OH I AM? That's rich....let me give you a refresher

Vote for Democrats.
Winning elections is important — therefore, advocating in favor of Republican nominees or in favor of third-party spoiler candidates that could split the vote and throw an election to our conservative opponents is never permitted on Democratic Underground. But that does not mean that DU members are required to always be completely supportive of Democrats. During the ups-and-downs of politics and policy-making, it is perfectly normal to have mixed feelings about the Democratic officials we worked hard to help elect. When we are not in the heat of election season, members are permitted to post strong criticism or disappointment with our Democratic elected officials, or to express ambivalence about voting for them. In Democratic primaries, members may support whomever they choose. But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees (EXCEPT in rare cases where were a non-Democrat is most likely to defeat the conservative alternative, or where there is no possibility of splitting the liberal vote and inadvertently throwing the election to the conservative alternative). For presidential contests, election season begins when both major-party nominees become clear. For non-presidential contests, election season begins on Labor Day. Everyone here on DU needs to work together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. If you are bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for our candidates during election season, we'll assume you are rooting for the other side.

[Purveyor]

48. You should have highlighted this section:

But that does not mean that DU members are required to always be completely supportive of Democrats. During the ups-and-downs of politics and policy-making, it is perfectly normal to have mixed feelings about the Democratic officials we worked hard to help elect. When we are not in the heat of election season, members are permitted to post strong criticism or disappointment with our Democratic elected officials, or to express ambivalence about voting for them. In Democratic primaries, members may support whomever they choose. But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees (EXCEPT in rare cases where were a non-Democrat is most likely to defeat the conservative alternative, or where there is no possibility of splitting the liberal vote and inadvertently throwing the election to the conservative alternative). For presidential contests, election season begins when both major-party nominees become clear. For non-presidential contests, election season begins on Labor Day. Everyone here on DU needs to work together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. If you are bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for our candidates during election season, we'll assume you are rooting for the other side.

[VanillaRhapsody]

49. being in support of the third party candidate....and Bernie qualifies....

is NEVER permitted!


back atcha

[kelly1mm]

62. Wrong. Remember the Charlie Crist Independent run in FL? There was a Democrat in

the race and DU allowed posts supporting Crist over the Democrat.

So it is not always "NEVER permitted!" to support third party candidates.

[VanillaRhapsody]

64. No not wrong.....I just posted the exact words....which includes NEVER....

particularly a third party candidate that would split the ticket and allow a Republican to win....

Please explain how that is not true?

[kelly1mm]

71. Simple question: Were OP's and threads supporting third party candidate Charlie Crist allowed on DU

when there was a Democrat challenger for the office or not?

And one more thing, if something is "NEVER" allowed (which is an absolute), how can it be "particularly ...." qualified? It is an absolute. Never means never. Something cannot be 'more never'.

[VanillaRhapsody]

159. did it use the word or not?

[RandiFan1290]

113. This just in! lol

On Mon Sep 15, 2014, 02:00 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

OK. You are slipping off the rail now so I'll let you have the last illogical word
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5536521

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Saying a poster is "slipping off the rails" for ACCURATELY discussing what's in the DU TOS is disruptive, hurtful and rude. That whole "last illogical word" comment is inappropriate, too--he's essentially calling the poster a nut and a kook for telling him what the rules are here.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Sep 15, 2014, 02:12 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I support Bernie for President! TOS can KMA! Alerter needs to get a life. DU allowed the 3rd party people to campaign for Charlie Crist and split the vote for a Florida Senate seat. We can thank them for electing Marco Rubio.

Bernie! Bernie! Bernie! 2016!!!
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: All aboard! Hahaha

Crazy, but that's how it goes
Millions of people living as foes
Maybe. it's not too late
To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

Mental wounds not healing
Life's a bitter shame
I'm goin' off the rails on a crazy train
I'm goin' off the rails on a crazy train

I've listened to preachers,
I've listened to fools
I've watched all the dropouts
Who make their own rules
One person conditioned to rule and control
The media sells it and you live the role

Mental wounds still screaming
Driving me insane
I'm goin' off the rails on a crazy train
I'm goin' off the rails on a crazy train

Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: meh
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I would say that this subthread has gone more for comic relief than disruptive and insensitive.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[VanillaRhapsody]

171. DU jury is broken....

particularly if someone is called "going off the rails" for correctly pointing out what IS in the TOS....

Perhaps the jury is "off the rails"

Notice.....one juror told DU to "Kiss My Ass"...

[winter is coming]

53. "...we're not going to do anything about 2016 talk until well into 2016."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12596632#post1

[VanillaRhapsody]

67. Its about a third party.....not within the Democratic party....

third party is NOT acceptable.

[winter is coming]

75. There have many threads about Bernie Sanders.

As far as I know, only one person has been MIRTed for advocating for Bernie, and that ban was overturned by the admins. Apparently, they don't interpret the TOS the same way you do.

[VanillaRhapsody]

77. So? This proves what? you only have ONE piece of evidence with which I am to draw your conclusion

and I am supposed to accept that it happened exactly as you say as well....

Yeah right....

[winter is coming]

81. Your putative "evidence" is an excerpt from the TOS that you don't seem to understand.

The evidence that TOS is not being applied in the way you might wish is all around you: multiple posters in multiple threads, discussing Sanders as a possible candidate. Those threads aren't getting locked and those DUers aren't getting banned by the admins.

[kelly1mm]

82. Unless it's Charlie Crist or (maybe) Bernie Sanders? The precident has been set already on DU.nt

[Scootaloo]

58. So are many things that slide.

And on this issue? it will slide. Because it's looking like DU will have to decide whether it has a soul and principles, or if it's just a crass campaign organ, functioning as a neoconservative shill echo-chamber.

[VanillaRhapsody]

61. and who decides what that is? You I presume?

[Scootaloo]

65. Who decides what what is? You need a subject in your sentence. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

66. Who decides what qualifies per YOUR conditions?

Sounds like extortion to me though.....If we Democrats on DU don't throw up our hands and do as YOU demand of us.....uh...huh...uh...Wut exactly?

[Scootaloo]

68. I don't have demands, kid

I'm pointing out that I believe DU will reach a tipping point where it will have to decide between holding and endorsing progressive principles, or abandoning that in order to just hawk Democratic party coffee mugs.

because if you think "progressive" and "democratic party" are the same thing, you're a damned fool.

[VanillaRhapsody]

69. sounded like demands to me bucko!

see we have this thing called Democracy? Perhaps you've heard of it?

[Scootaloo]

72. Then you need to take remedial English.

Here's a demand: learn what a word means before you try to use it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

74. hmmmm seems I know it better than you think:

de·mand
diˈmand/Submit
noun
1.
an insistent and peremptory request, made as if by right.
"a series of demands for far-reaching reforms"
synonyms: request, call, command, order, dictate, ultimatum, stipulation
"I gave in to her demands"
pressing requirements.
"he's got enough demands on his time already"
synonyms: requirement, need, desire, wish, want; More
ECONOMICS
the desire of purchasers, consumers, clients, employers, etc., for a particular commodity, service, or other item.
"a recent slump in demand"
synonyms: market, call, appetite, desire
"there is a big demand for such toys"
verb
verb: demand; 3rd person present: demands; past tense: demanded; past participle: demanded; gerund or present participle: demanding
1.
ask authoritatively or brusquely.
"“Where is she?” he demanded"
synonyms: order, command, enjoin, urge; More

[Scootaloo]

76. Technically correct, you do know more than I thought you did

But then the difference between "completely unaware" and "just googled it a minute ago" isn't very big. hey. baby steps, right?

I'm sorry that the idea of a progressive-centric DU scares you.

[VanillaRhapsody]

78. "technically correct"

[Scootaloo]

80. Well, your claim that I'm "making demands" is still pure bullshit

Good to see you're down to arguing with emoticons.

[Old Crow]

87. I must say, you crack me up--in a good way.

How can I not lend a sympathetic ear to someone with a pony avatar and a username of Scootaloo?

Your quip about hawking Democratic Party coffee mugs made me LOL. God, I hope it doesn't come to that. I'm new and I don't know what the rules are around here (though I suppose I should look them up). I'm glad to see that we're allowed to root for Sanders and Warren. I don't think I'd want to be here if we weren't.

[Veilex]

96. +1

You seem like good folk to me Old Crow...
that and your avatar makes me think of Huginn and Muninn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn

Here's the Terms of Service for easy perusal... or you can find it at the bottom of any DU page.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

[Old Crow]

103. Ooooh!

How cool is that?! I'd never heard of Huginn and Muninn before and I think the story looks fascinating. I look forward to giving it a closer read tomorrow when I'm a little more rested. Thank you. I'm very much into all things corvid-related (crows, blue jays, ravens).

Regarding the Terms of Service, I'm totally fine with all of it except for that pesky Bigfoot clause (claws?). LOL... I keed, I keed!

Have a good night, Veilex!

[Union Scribe]

79. Pretty funny comment coming from

some rageaholic who's trying to appoint himself admin. Just shouting at people in caps doesn't grant you authority.

[LondonReign2]

125. Sanders is more of a Democrat than Clinton is

[Rilgin]

157. Hillary is also at this time not a democratic candidate for president

Last edited Mon Sep 15, 2014, 05:19 PM - Edit history (2)

If you missed it, the following facts apply.

1. Sanders has said that he is contemplating running as a democrat. Discussing his potential candidacy as a democrat is not outside the TOS. If he said outright that he had rejected that path, you could have a claim although as we know this is not pure. There have been discussions throughout history on trying to pull independents and republicans to the democratic party.

2. When Hillary runs, she could also run as an independant. She was once a registered member of the Republican party. Can you state with certainty until she runs as a democrat that she will not run as either an independant or republican.

Of course we do not really expect HRC to run as either a Republican or an independant. However, I wished to point out that your argument against discussing Sanders candidacy as a democrat would only be valid if you were also arguing that noone could discuss or advocate for Hillary to run for president because she is not a democratic candidate for president.

The TOS if it applies at all applies would only seem to apply to actual candidates with declared parties in their candidacy not discussions of desire for people who they would like to run. Otherwise, you could have not have any political discussions of candidates before their declarations. I have not seen statements that they would only support Sanders if he ran as an independant (although I could imagine someone posting that as part of a discussion). The posts seem to only urge him to run or not run and discuss whether they would vote for him.

[JonLP24]

167. It depends on what the polls show

DU allowed support for Crist as well as the Democratic candidate because Crist was doing better in the polls.

[Thinkingabout]

28. I don't think Bernie would do well in the debates, he has a hard time in Townhall meetings.

[grahamhgreen]

111. Is that why he wins?

[Thinkingabout]

124. You could say the same for Chris Christie "wins" also, it may work in their state but it does not

work nationwide.

[grahamhgreen]

153. Christies a crook. I think that's his problem.

[rhett o rick]

127. My money is on Bernie. He has a hard time because telling the truth is touchy. Many don't

want to hear the truth so they listen to the rhetoric of candidates like H. Clinton.

[Thinkingabout]

138. Many don't like to be treated as he does his constituents, he claims democracy when he speaks

but democracy is not returned in shouting "shut up". He can't handle heat.

[rhett o rick]

144. So exactly what are you accusing him of? nm

[Thinkingabout]

145. He is ugly in a townhall meeting and when backed into a corner he yells "shut up", if

might fair in his state, it will not in the rest of the nation and if he loses his temper in a debate it will probably be over, like OOPS Rick Perry.

[rhett o rick]

146. I am familiar with the single case you are referring to and sympathize with

him for trying to put up with an unruly minority that were attempting to disrupt.

I would like to point out to you that a town hall is not similar to a carefully regulated debate. Sen Sanders goes way beyond any other similar politician to talk to the people and on occasion he gets some unfriendly responses. Who are you favoring for the Democratic candidate?

[Thinkingabout]

152. He either has to keep his hat on and wear it, there will be other times where this will happen.

He lost it, there will be hard questions in a debate, he can't be Chris Christie and expect everyone to accept his behavior.

[NorthCarolina]

188. Dafuq I just read

[bigworld]

31. Let him run!

The more ideas that are discussed the better. I don't want next year to be a coronation of any candidate!

[VanillaRhapsody]

37. there IS no Coronation....there IS however a Primary...Some folks just have better numbers

in the runup than others....for example MOST Democrats support Hillary Clinton that is not a coronation...THAT is a fact.

[BlueCaliDem]

44. Thank you for the necessary reality check.

It was getting pretty anti-Democrat on this thread. Hopefully, explaining to some, who really appear to dislike HRC, that there is no such thing as a coronation of any politician but that we do have primaries, will calm the political waters here for a bit.

[Autumn]

47. That was a great interview and I hope he runs.

He seems to be looking into everything to see which would work the best. He will certainly make the run interesting.

[Uncle Joe]

50. They will be extremely reluctant to have Bernie Sanders

back on Meet the Mess.

He stayed on point and avoided corporate media mouthpiece Todd's efforts to both anoint Hillary and create division within the Democratic Party, of course division is the Republicans best friend.

Thanks for the thread, Purveyor.

[Old Crow]

52. Smart observations there.

I think you're 100% correct about Todd's agenda. Thanks for the insights.

[grahamhgreen]

112. Note that they trashed him afterwards for not 'taking on' Hillary

[Uncle Joe]

141. Note that they never ask Hillary whether she should run because Candidate X is or might be running.

Last edited Mon Sep 15, 2014, 02:45 PM - Edit history (2)

That's part and parcel of the corporate media's anointing process.

They don't want the American People to actually think for themselves or have the candidates earn the peoples' votes without a preset frame having been put in place.

[grahamhgreen]

151. Good point. They never ask Hillary about sanders policy positions.

[NorthCarolina]

163. The 1% will let you know who is acceptable for you to vote for.

For 2016 you may choose from Hillary or Jeb, anyone else must immediately be considered "unelectable", a "kook", or even "a socialist"....Oh my!

[Uncle Joe]

165. It's truly Ironic, North Carolina, that our nation was founded on breaking away from royalty

only to have our 21st century corporate media embrace it as the default "choice (s)" for the people.

They've totally abandoned any concept of all men (women) are created equal, while committed to pushing named dynasties instead.

[NorthCarolina]

172. Neither party works for the average citizen. The Dems will tinker about the edges

just to give themselves some hint of legitimacy, but in reality there are very few legislators...VERY few...who actually take the plight of the middle class and poor to heart. Bernie Sanders is and has been one of those very few, and for that he will have my vote if he runs in 2016. The rest are nothing more than corporate bootlickers seeking personal wealth, and have no particular feelings for the average Joe short of contempt. I am through voting for such folks simply because they call themselves a Democrat. From here on out I vote principle, not party.

[saidsimplesimon]

51. If Senator Sanders stands up, I'll be on his side.

Rentiers are in my scope. Franco Calabrese is either Don Franco or a Chicago investor who will profit from putting the screws to low income Americans.

[scarletwoman]

57. "...anger at the media establishment." I imagine that one slipped right by Mr. Media Establishment,

Chucky Toad.

Sorry, I'm on dialup and can't watch the clip.

[JEB]

59. Bernie is probably the most sensible person in DC.

Whatever job he wants to do, I support his efforts.

[Maedhros]

105. PLEASE RUN, BERNIE [n/t]

[JDPriestly]

106. K&R for Bernie Sanders!

[Veganhealedme]

108. Bernie/Elizabeth 2016! Rebuild the middle class dream ticket. knr nt

[karynnj]

120. Bernie Sanders has been underestimated before -- his winning as mayor of Burlington VT was unlikely

before he did it.

Here is an article from 7 Days, an independent VT paper, that is mainly about a UVM professor who is a close friend of his. There are wonderful stories about Sanders, who once roomed with him. (I hope some read the entire delightful article.)

Short clip:
"It was Sugarman who recognized that, while Sanders did poorly in statewide races, he did increasingly well in Burlington.

“‘I think you can win,’” he remembers telling Sanders, “‘but we have to make this about concrete issues: neighborhoods and snow removal and things that people actually care about.’ And he became an unbelievable student of this stuff.”

In 1981, when Sanders was elected mayor by just 12 votes, it was Sugarman who oversaw the vote recount to make sure Sanders’ victory wasn’t stolen.

“Later I asked him, ‘What’s in it for me?’” Sugarman recalls. “He said, ‘You get to be commissioner of reality.’” It was an unpaid position."
http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/the-wondering-jew/Content?oid=2242436

Last fall, the Burlington Democratic party had an event celebrating the two Burlington area former Governors, Howard Dean and Madeline Kunin. When Dean spoke, he spoke of the current mayor being the first Democratic mayor in decades -- since Bernie Sanders won. He also spoke of when he knew Sanders might win. He ran into his mailman and the man told him he could see that Sanders cared for people like him. (Dean said his wife voted for Sanders, while he voted for the party's Democrat. ) Dean also spoke of how the Progressive party did move the Democratic party in VT to the left. (This is from memory - take comments with a grain of salt.)

There are some real VT posters here - Cali comes to mind - who really know far more about this history than a very recent transplant. The point that I am making is that Sanders may well succeed in at least raising the issue of the decline of a middle class. At this point, it could be premature to rule out that he or someone else running on the issue - ie someone who can play "RFK" to his "McCarthy" - could actually win. One clue that this could have some resonance is the low approval of both parties may suggest that people want something else.

[treestar]

121. So who is going to be in Congress?

Yawn. And why should the Democrats nominate someone who just joined the party?

[broadcaster75201]

122. I don't like Hillary at all, but I'll vote for her.

She's just another Conservative corporatist as was her Husband. Can we say NAFTA?

[1StrongBlackMan]

123. Masterful response ...

“I don’t know that Hillary is running,” Sanders replied. “I don’t know what she’s running on. I know that the middle class in this country is collapsing. I know that the gap between the very, very rich and everybody else is growing wider. There’s profound anger at the greed on Wall Street, anger at the media establishment. The American people want real change. I have been taking on the big money and special interests all of my political life.”

That should be the template response for all that wish to promote a Sanders/HRC schism. At this stage, there is absolutely no reason for any Democrat, or person on the Left to voice criticism of another Democratic/Leftist candidate.

Could you imagine a primary campaign where the candidates actually talked about the what and how of their platform; rather than, the Not what and Not how, of their opponent(s)? It would be a breath of fresh air to NOT have candidates attempting to manipulate the electorate with false slurs.

[orpupilofnature57]

126. It's about exposing the Two party system that polarizes us .

[rhett o rick]

128. It choice is simple. If you want to fix the ever growing inequality problem, pick Sanders.

If you are ok with the status quo where inequality is ever growing, vote H. Clinton.

[MynameisBlarney]

129. This man would make an outstanding Prez.

I'll vote for him.

[olegramps]

147. Chucky Toad failed his billionaire handlers.

They thought they would hand him some got-cha talking points and he they would make short work of that damn commie Sanders. By putting the money on Toady, it was analogous to putting a $1500.00 saddle on a $10.00 swayback nag.

[blkmusclmachine]

150. But I heard that the Clintons are "dead broke." Surely that must qualify them as one of the 99%?????

[Initech]

154. Bernie gets it!.Bernie for president!

[Raffi Ella]

155. Wow, he is GOOD. really good.

I love Hillary and I am excited about her run, she's been fighting the Right Wing Machine for decades, she's good at it and she can win, but it's not about her- it IS about the People.

I don't know. I don't really think he has a shot in hell of winning Southern votes in a General. We can't afford to lose. Bernie needs to show us how he can win. I'd vote for him IF he could really win.

I hope Hillary watched that interview.

[Stellar]

158. My question is...

What can Hillary do about it, if anything?

Chuck really wanted to start some ish!

[2banon]

160. K&R!

[B Calm]

173. Chuck replies: You never mentioned the middle class. .

sarcasm. . .

[kansasobama]

175. Again, Democrats getting ready to shoot themselves- thanks to Bernie

Bernie Sanders makes sense but running for President does not do anything. He needs to be firing up voters around the states in 2014. This is not about 2016.

By the way, I do not like it but fact are facts. Conservative voters outperform us. We just find a way to get disconnected and we do not know how to take small steps.

Bernie will do a Ralph Nader and 2016 will go to GOP.

This is looking like 1992, 1994, 1996 and 2000.

People do not learn from history.

For us to succeed, we need a liberal Congress and a moderate-left President. The liberal Congress should talk moderate but gradually enact liberal policies.

Our emotions and impatience and lack of strategy is our downfall.

[Jefferson23]

181. Was there anything he said that was not accurate? I don't think so. K&R