SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS!

[trumad]

I'm sitting here stunned at some of the replies from the so-called Progressive members here on DU regarding the African-American Actress who was handcuffed for kissing her White Boy Friend.

The law in California says that you do not have to show your identification when asked. Several here have stated---just show your damn ID when asked and get it over with.

Again---you don't have too.

Here is another thing you don't have to do in California. You don't have to carry an ID. The actress could have easily said, I don't have one.

Now before you hop on with all your I was there expertise---they were having sex---cop had a right--blah blah blah... I encourage you to listen to their side of the story.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/14/showbiz/django-unchained-actress-detained/

[Xyzse]

1. I agree with you here actually.

I know it is illegal to procreate in a public spot, though I know many risk it.
(-coughs- ahem)

-clarifications-
--I agree that it is illegal.
--I don't agree that she needed to show her identification.
--I still think that this was an over-reaction.
--Heck, I saw a group take a restaurant room, and the bodyguards blocked it off, while someone had his way with what I assume to be a lady of the night. Not that it makes it any better, just saying stuff like this happens, and usually a citation is all that happens.

[Egnever]

13. a citation requires ID

just sayin

[GummyBearz]

14. So what happens if you arent carrying one?

I walk around a lot without my wallet or any form of ID. If a cop stops me and demands an ID, what do I do? Get arrested and charged with ..... oh yea, there is nothing to charge me with. Quit being dumb.

[Egnever]

15. You go with your bad self

But when you get thrown in jail to be held till your id is confirmed because you match the description of a bad guy. I am quite sure you will feel really smart.

[GummyBearz]

25. in that case

I'll just call Obama to come get me out... oh wait, it wont happen anyways.. hurrrr

[brush]

28. "Show me your ID" is getting pretty close to "Show me your papers" . . .

. . . slippery slope, jack boots, fascism and all that.

If we keep yielding to this and no one stands up to them, we're acquiescing to our accelerating drift towards a police state.

My hat is off to the young lady for standing up to a principle, a Constitutional freedom.

Too many people, even here DU, a progressive site, don't seem to get that.

Guess it takes people of color, especially black people, to show the way and be the vanguard since they bear the brunt of most of this erosion of rights, even of life (see Ferguson, MO).

[hunter]

32. That sounds ghastly, just ghastly.

From personal experience the police are not inclined to do that over a simple identification issue. It's too much hassle for them, the jails are too crowded, and it's expensive.

Exceptions might be if word comes down from high to lean on some minorities, protesters, football revelers, or something similar. And, of course, if you are tangled up in an actual crime, guilty or not. Or maybe you are on some unprofessional cop's shit list that day because of racism, misogyny, LGBT hatered, whatever.

Still, I never carry ID because I like to pretend I live in a free country protected by certain Constitutional rights.

If more people pushed back against unreasonable police behavior maybe we could make some progress. Too many law enforcement officers in the U.S.A. are simply bullies or even criminals.

[Evergreen Emerald]

2. That is not what the witnesses say happened.

The police were investigating a complaint about a couple having sex in a car. In public. With the door open. I don't care how big of a star you are...you are not entitled to fuck in public.

And if you do...be prepared for the consequences.

[Evergreen Emerald]

34. Witnesses from the nearby director's guild office

This does not sound like the issues you suggest.

[Boom Sound 416]

3. I love call out threads.

[trumad]

7. In the old days I'd call out

You would have definitely been top on my list.

[Boom Sound 416]

9. ...

[Boom Sound 416]

5. Just drop the mic anywhere

[TeeYiYi]

8. Favorite papes, bar none. ..nt

TYY

[Auggie]

6. An old answer from an apparent cop:

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060711011931AAbmgHG

"If I ask you for ID and you tell me you don't have it or outright refuse to provide it (under circumstances where you don't have to), you're going to send my "bad guy" radar into overdrive. I will very likely do everything possible to determine who you are, because I don't want to be the guy who let the murderer from Kentucky or the rapist from Illinois escape justice. And yes, depending on the circumstances, it's entirely possible I could make things very difficult for you if you refuse to identify yourself.

So the answer to your question, given the very limited amount of detail you provided, is no...you do not have to show ID when requested for a "random" reason.

HOWEVER:

You are not going to be in any position to decide if the request is just a random one. The police might have a very valid reason to request your identification, and they are not required to tell you what it is before you hand over the ID.

One sure way to find out if they have the legal right to demand your identification is to refuse to hand it over. If they have the legal right to demand it, and you refuse to hand it over, the next sound you hear will be handcuffs. If that's a chance you're prepared to take, then refuse all requests for identification from law enforcement. You'll only get arrested on those occasions when the request was legally justified.

If you're one of those people who just object to the idea of telling the police who you are, get over it. We can and do make it our business to know who someone is if we have an interest in them. If you want to be the guy that refuses to identify yourself on principle, go for it. Be prepared to have unpleasant run-ins with law enforcement.

You asked about showing your ID. That implies that you will have it with you. If you don't have your ID with you, then you can't show it, can you? However, that's no magic bullet, either. If you are in a situation where the police have legal justification for knowing who you are, and you cannot prove who you are, you run a HUGE risk of being booked into the local jail until such time as you do prove who you are. And we are not required to take your word for it, or to accept anything less than official government-issued identification with a photo on it."

[tazkcmo]

30. Tough Toenails

You "get over it" Mr. Protect and Serve. I don't carry my ID and don't mind being tossed in jail for it either. It's nice to lay around and read all day while my meals are delivered. Wouldn't be the first time.

My response is addressed to the cop but if you feel the same way as the cop then apply it yourself also.

[hunter]

33. Authoritarian garble garble... gawd.

[treestar]

56. What if you don't have it with you?

If they have no reason to arrest you, they have to let you go. If they arrest you, they don't need your ID.

When they book you, give your name. A lot of criminals will give false names, true, but that's what cops have to deal with on the job.

[JonLP24]

57. I remember a detective

pulled me over because they were investigating a fare that I just dropped off -- I had no idea they were following me. It was for "driving on the wrong side of the road" -- I was driving on the right and pulled to the curb on the house to the left hand side. I had no idea that was illegal so I was absolutely confused to the probable cause (plus I had an iffy "terry stop" by police in 2011 before) or the reason why they were questioning me especially since they weren't telling me anything.

Anyways during the course of it I gave them my ID, asked if that was my address told him no but couldn't remember the address (a girlfriend's apartment) but gave the intersection, the name of the apartments, the name of the car dealership it was located next to -- I just couldn't remember the damn unit number and was indicating to me that this was a problem. So I call her, tell her the cop wants to know her address she refuses, hang up and tell the cop she refuses. He tells me that he'll have to take me to jail until he figures out what my damn address is (I'm not even on the lease, was there less than 2 weeks) so I call again and tell her she wants to speak to him, he says he doesn't "want to play any games" and refuses to speak to her, she says, "I want to tell him the address, who is the one playing games?" She advises me to hand the phone to another cop which I did -- problem solved.

After they completely searched the vehicle and questioned me to death -- what could I tell him? They apparently knew much more about what the fare was into than I did, how could I help? They wrote me a ticket and asked me to do some undercover work for them -- even giving him a free ride to the suspects house. This was after I lost valuable time and it was particularly bad day (they gave me shit over noticing how little money I had in my wallet and what the daily lease rates were -- like they were happy about the cost of this inconvenience to me). That $20 the fare gave me was the most I made that day of a single fare. Why would I help them out even if I wanted to?

I think police hurt themselves in the long wrong with this sort of attitude. If people are treated rude and disrespectfully, why would they want to help them out in the future? I like to deal with people and situations that are straightforward, I don't like lies & manipulation, and disrespectful behavior which turn me off to the local police.

On edit -- I just remembered I ran into that same detective near the entrance of a grocery store when another officer near him was arrested someone for "threatening" (according to the officer yelling & cuffing him) he turned to me and asked, "Do you remember where I stopped you at?"
"Yes" (me)
"Where did I stop you at?"
"You know where." (me)
"No, where did I stop you at."
"Can I stop answering questions" (or use my 5th amendment right or something to that effect)
"See you soon" (detective)

What an asshole. I still can't figure out why he wanted to have a useless conversation with me on my way to the grocery store while he was in the middle of arresting someone that is obviously unrelated.

[Auggie]

58. My lawyer has advised me not to fuck with cops because you never know who you're dealing with

Some times you cross paths with a good ones. Other times it's not quite the case. Sounds like you did indeed cross paths with an asshole, but you handled the situation in a smart and calm manner.

[KurtNYC]

10. She was having sex in full view of many people and knew it.

Car door open, intercourse all the way to climax. Hearing the audio changed my take on this incident.

Audio:
http://www.tmz.com/2014/09/15/django-actress-daniele-watts-lapd-race-card-fame-audio/

[Boom Sound 416]

11. Damn.

Hadn't heard the second one yet.

Thank God for the Hollywood elite. I especially love the publicist line followed my Daddy! Daddy! Followed by her being brave. Great kicker

[KurtNYC]

19. celebs have a different relationship with the police and I think the audio

gives an idea of how different. Also the audio and its release show a different strategy by police in managing PR, but this was in Hollywood so...

I am wondering if there is maybe another piece of info yet to come on this story -- one that would explain why the door the was open. Did they intend for someone specific in THAT building to see what they were doing?

[Egnever]

12. Sounds like she should have handed over her ID

[cali]

16. we're racists- according to Trumad and much of DU- for pointing that out

the only acceptable DU narrative is that this is rank racism.

[Boom Sound 416]

17. TMZ is racist too

Their poll is at 88% siding with the cop.

Eta: their views, readers

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

18. Results of your jury service

On Mon Sep 15, 2014, 06:44 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

we're racists- according to Trumad and much of DU- for pointing that out
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5541011

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Calling out trumad. Accusing trumad of calling DUers racists, when he's done no such thing.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Sep 15, 2014, 06:48 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Hi cali's stalker
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not over the top in my opinion...and true to boot.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's a discussion.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Trumad said no such thing.


Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[m-lekktor]

21. oh pleases Trumad's very first sentence when he states

the race of both people involved in the situation in his call out pretty much proves he is accusing those of us who disagree of racism. if he wasn't implying that he wouldn't have mentioned their race. the alerter has reading comprehension issues.

the alert function is being abused like crazy lately.

[AnalystInParadise]

41. Yep

I've noticed.....

[cali]

53. I have lots of "stalkers" on DU- or rather people who alert

on most of my posts. The jury system is russian roulette. too many times it's personal dislike that dictates how a person votes on any given post.

oh well. it is what it is- and it's a lot less work for admins.

[1dogleft]

23. i've noticed that

maybe once or twice

[kcr]

60. TMZ

Hardly a vindication. I'm not one of your stalkers. I just think you're wrong on this.

[Generic Other]

20. Trumad showed an interview where the man and woman share their version publicly

An unnamed informant is your source.

I also believe race played a part in the assumptions being made about the couple's relationship. First by the anonymous witness who seems to have seen a whole lot more action than the couple admits to, and secondly by the cop who was called to the scene. He seems to have believed he had probable cause to question whether she had a prior record of engaging in lewd acts or illegal activity, and part of his belief was based on his assumptions. His action of handcuffing her suggests he was acting with the reasonable certainty that he would find some evidence of a violation of some sort. At the center of the argument lies the fact that a couple in an interracial relationship felt profiled. And the cop should just man up and admit it.

She was not legally required to carry ID in California. Nor to produce it on demand.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

22. I don't think you are correct in saying that she didn't have to produce ID on demand

True, in CA a cop can't just stop someone and demand ID without reasonable suspicion. But the fact that he was responding to a call made by someone that was accusing the couple of having sex most likely meets the threshold for reasonable suspicion.

[Generic Other]

24. I think the cop agrees with you on that as well

It is a fine line. I am just suggesting that many would make the assumptions the woman accuses the cop of doing, and most I am certain would never admit it.

I guess it just shows that when you feel like you are in the right, you need to speak up. Damn the consequences.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

26. If a cop asks me for ID

I'm going to show it to him or her. If I feel my rights were violated, then I'll contact the ACLU and file a complaint with the police department.

I personally don't see anything to gain by refusing to provide ID.

[Generic Other]

37. I rarely carry it

Especially if I am not driving. I didn't carry a purse for the first 40 years of my life. Stuffed my junk in my pocket.

I guess if I don't think I am guilty of a crime, I am going to question authority everytime.

[NutmegYankee]

45. I routinely go for walks around the area at night without a wallet or ID.

Only once was I ever stopped and questioned, and it lasted just 15 seconds. I stated my name and address and that I wanted to exercise when the sun was down because it was cooler. I doubt the cop really had a reason to stop and ask me, but I didn't want my heart rate to drop so I just answered and continued on my way.

I'm saddened that there are people here who think they have to always carry their "papers" on them to produce if an officer asks for "your papers please". They don't deserve freedom.

[gollygee]

39. An unnamed informant on TMZ for God's sake.

Not known for their truthfulness. They make shit up to get people to read their site. They're like The Daily Globe or whatever those supermarket tabloids are named.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TMZ

In what The Smoking Gun called "a colossal screw-up", TMZ published an "exclusive" picture on their Web site of a man purported to be John F. Kennedy on a ship with several naked women that could have "changed history" had it come out during his presidential campaign.[61] Despite having a Photoshop expert proclaiming the picture as "authentic", the picture was later discovered to have not been of Kennedy at all. The photo was discovered to have been part of a Playboy photoshoot from November 1967, which was later confirmed by Playboy representatives.[62][63]

On March 15, 2013, members of TMZ's staff claimed that they had learned rapper Lil Wayne was in an "unstable" condition after he was hospitalized following a seizure and that the 30-year-old rapper had been placed in an induced coma and was breathing through tubes. [64] Soon after the report was made, Lil Wayne's friend Mack Maine responded to TMZ's allegations on his Twitter account by stating that Wayne was "alive and well" and that he was currently at Wayne's bedside "watching the Syracuse game" with him.[65] Maine also added that Wayne's condition was never that serious and that Wayne was never in a coma or breathing through tubes.[65] Soon afterwards, Wayne's father stated on his Twitter account that Wayne was healthy enough to be released from the hospital.[65] Approximately one hour after these tweets were made, Wayne himself stated that on his Twitter account that he was okay.[65]

[hunter]

35. The police better have a large library of amorous white couples getting the same treatment...

... or this is most certainly a racial incident.

But meh. The entire thing is beginning to sound like a television reality show.

The Palin family brawl, and now this...

Where were the adults?

[AuntPatsy]

27. Guy with gun stopped by police, refuses to give Id walks away....

https://m.

[Boom Sound 416]

31. I'll be honest i didn't watch the video

But the next time a cop asks to see your id, if you pull out your phone and show him this video, please post how it goes.

[NutmegYankee]

36. Hypothetical - A person is out jogging without their wallet and is stopped by police.

What should happen?

[Boom Sound 416]

38. 49

That what's would happen.

[NutmegYankee]

40. So a non-answer?

[AnalystInParadise]

42. There are many ways

To carry ID without needing a wallet. I always have two forms of picture ID on me.......ALWAYS. Even when scuba diving and surfing. Otter boxes are one way, the military instilled in me the proper reason why one always needs picture ID on them.

[NutmegYankee]

43. But what if you don't have it with you. What happens?

[AnalystInParadise]

46. On a military base?

You get detained. In certain states you get detained. In California, (I am in Barstow on a business trip right now) if you try to buy many things with no ID and try to use a credit card, they won't let you buy those things. I prefer to have ID because it makes life far easier and is not the harbinger of some kind of fascist regime.

[NutmegYankee]

47. A regular person walking or jogging in their own neighborhood.

Military bases are secure zones with special rules. Trust me, I'm all too familiar. It's a simple question, but the answer goes right to the heart of one's commitment to the Constitution.

[AnalystInParadise]

49. Took an oath

Repeatedly to the Constitution during my military career. I still don't see any conflict with personal freedoms to carry ID

[NutmegYankee]

50. I also took an Oath.

Straightforward question. Did an American have to carry ID in 1790? The answer of course is no. Mandatory carrying of identification papers is not compatible with liberty.

[AnalystInParadise]

59. Ok

We disagree. I see no conflict with my oaths, you see conflict with yours. I suspect the correct answer lies in the middle between our two opinions.

[moriah]

44. Just like you don't have to consent to a search of your vehicle.

It's far better to be POLITE about the whole thing....

"I'm sorry, Officer, but I really don't have the time to consent for you to search my vehicle. Am I being detained, or am I free to go?"

Than:

"Hell no, you can't search my car, you pig!"

But either way, she was within her rights.

[951-Riverside]

48. Nuh uh! She don't have no rights when a police person is talking to her

wh-wh-when a police officers says I want to search your car just comply and y-y-you'll be on your w-w-way. Same thing when they ask for your lisense.

They have a right to ID you even if you don't commit no crime or nothing.

God bless the police people, they have a tough and thankless job.

[Boom Sound 416]

54. Wow.

[JustAnotherGen]

51. I came back from my walk

About 45 minutes ago - just around our little town here. I didn't bring my ID. I brought my keys and my cell phone. That's it.

Now I live in NJ - I don't think we have a papers please law here.

If I'm not driving - why do I need my license?

If I'm not on my way to work - why do I need my work ID?

If I'm not doing anything wrong - why should I feel the need to protect myself?

[whistler162]

52. Well I carry it when walking so

if I collapse and get run over buy a parade of vintage steamrollers they can ID me easier. Well the first part. Carrying some type of ID when out and about, unless everyone in town knows you is just prudent.

[JustAnotherGen]

55. I live in a really good community

And trust me - the police know me. We are friends with the Commissioner.

They also can expect at least one call a month from me. Over - what usually is nothing.

Yesterday the police officer sitting at Emery and Maple said, "Good morning Gladys".

Evidently they are joking that when we bought our house they got pushed into a long running episode of Bewitched.


I'm watching yooooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuu!

They know damn well I'm out walking not only for my health - but looking for criminals - that don't exist.