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trumad

(41,692 posts)
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:12 AM Sep 2014

The issue about hitting kids has always been an easy one for me.

Last edited Tue Sep 16, 2014, 11:08 AM - Edit history (1)

Funny how this has been a recurring subject here on DU since this place began and its always been a very small minority that advocate a parents right to physically hit a small child--- no matter how many times those of us who are against it have provided irrefutable proof that it doesn't work and is more likely to cause emotional damage to the child.

The push back from the child smackers usually goes like this: Hey I was hit as a kid and I turned out all right.

Are you sure? You grew up and became a child smacker and in some cases a child beater.

Or...I spanked my kid and he turned out OK...heck he's even a Doctor.

Yeah that's my Dads excuse.. I hit you and you turned out great. Thing is Dad...I fucking look back on that time and have horrible memories of you hitting me with that belt. Yeah Dad I love you...but that has taken some work.

Final word. You as a big strong physical adult who hits a small child...you're nothing more than a coward. A lazy coward at that.

Easy to hit than to use other non-violent proven methods for discipline.

Nuff said!

78 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The issue about hitting kids has always been an easy one for me. (Original Post) trumad Sep 2014 OP
Yes, it's not better than that canard treestar Sep 2014 #1
My mom smoked while breastfeeding my sister and me. NYC_SKP Sep 2014 #3
Now I have an image Dorian Gray Sep 2014 #65
And a Gin and Tonic! NYC_SKP Sep 2014 #67
Add to breastfeeding smokers and pet chicken for dinner. What an infinity of worlds. freshwest Oct 2014 #77
Actually, when young we sat down and ate my pet chicken, Peepee. NYC_SKP Oct 2014 #78
I dreamed I was a child again and Dad was beating me fasttense Sep 2014 #72
Hitting is always wrong unless.... NYC_SKP Sep 2014 #2
yup La Lioness Priyanka Sep 2014 #40
I gave my kid nursemaid's elbow when he dashed out in front of a moving car in a parking lot. hunter Sep 2014 #76
my ex-w raised 2 great kids, never hit, rarely even raised her voice. KG Sep 2014 #4
I can see why that argument works though el_bryanto Sep 2014 #5
You might want to read Alice Miller chervilant Sep 2014 #11
I don't have children and I'm unlikely to ever have children. el_bryanto Sep 2014 #12
I am not offended. I was just sharing information. chervilant Sep 2014 #32
John Bradshaw expanded and popularized the work of Alice Miller Manifestor_of_Light Sep 2014 #71
Thank you so much for this post. chervilant Sep 2014 #73
You're welcome. Manifestor_of_Light Sep 2014 #74
It isn't true that any punishment can be viewed as a form of child abuse. pnwmom Sep 2014 #41
If you're of an older generation, you don't really need to be labeling your parents abusers, though Hippo_Tron Sep 2014 #60
hitting a child demonstrates to me that you don't respect the physical integrity cali Sep 2014 #6
Yes, I think that's the worst aspect of it, freedom fighter jh Sep 2014 #9
A parent who hits their child is incompetent. riqster Sep 2014 #7
It is an act of desperation... 3catwoman3 Sep 2014 #10
I've always said that hitting is the lazy way to raise a child..... secondwind Sep 2014 #8
As I've gotten older and have more perspective I think Lex Sep 2014 #13
rec SammyWinstonJack Sep 2014 #14
Without exception, every parent I have seen striking (a.k.a. "spanking") a child Heidi Sep 2014 #15
When my parents divorced JonLP24 Sep 2014 #19
Jon, I'm sorry you were exposed to all that when you were a kid, and I'm sorry your mom had to Heidi Sep 2014 #21
I was referring to someone else JonLP24 Sep 2014 #26
My husband was beaten with a large belt as a child.. mountain grammy Sep 2014 #16
"I turned out OK" yodermon Sep 2014 #17
Exactly. Heidi Sep 2014 #18
I wish hitting their own kids was a crime in the USA Sunlei Sep 2014 #20
I've always held that Le Taz Hot Sep 2014 #22
If people say their religion dictates they hit a child, they should apply for a valerief Sep 2014 #23
Yup. Hissyspit Sep 2014 #24
I'm thinking more and more that their addiction to child beating is actually sexual. DesertDiamond Sep 2014 #25
The science here is clear. SoLeftIAmRight Sep 2014 #27
After being whipped with a belt as a child I swore I would not do that to my own kids. Dustlawyer Sep 2014 #28
90% of the time a parent hits a child its due to rage and frustration tularetom Sep 2014 #29
where the hell 1dogleft Sep 2014 #57
I've got proof of the opposite -- I've never struck my kids, and they turned out AWESOME. byronius Sep 2014 #30
How in the hell am I supposed to teach my child it's not ok to hit other people AtheistCrusader Sep 2014 #31
K & R Liberal_Dog Sep 2014 #33
I was an abused child maindawg Sep 2014 #34
being beaten is humiliating for adults and children noiretextatique Sep 2014 #35
Yep, Easy colsohlibgal Sep 2014 #36
Except it isn't really easy to know, which is why you still feel a little guilty. pnwmom Sep 2014 #38
Who wants to be the kind of parent with great adult kids pnwmom Sep 2014 #37
Your adult children had years of training from you in keeping their mouths shut. fishwax Sep 2014 #43
a bully with no self control is how i see people who hit children La Lioness Priyanka Sep 2014 #39
There is a huge class divide in spanking/whupping kids AngryAmish Sep 2014 #42
it is hardly universal outside the US. In many places its illegal. fishwax Sep 2014 #44
Some european countries make it illegal AngryAmish Sep 2014 #45
Slavery was prevalent around the world for eons, until it wasn't. That doesn't make it acceptable. pnwmom Sep 2014 #47
Well, it isn't just Europe--countries in South America and Africa as well fishwax Sep 2014 #68
It is a safe and settled fact that stressed out, frazzled, angry, pnwmom Sep 2014 #46
Yeah, those proles are all criminal anyway.... AngryAmish Sep 2014 #48
For some reason you're standing up for child abuse. pnwmom Sep 2014 #50
I am not Amish. AngryAmish Sep 2014 #54
People who were raised Amish and left the community usually use computers. pnwmom Sep 2014 #55
Next time I won't dissent. AngryAmish Sep 2014 #56
Is that evidence that hitting a kid isn't child abuse? phil89 Sep 2014 #52
there is nothing "normal" about beating humans who are smaller than you noiretextatique Sep 2014 #59
Please do share some peer reviewed studies demonstrating this class divide Hippo_Tron Sep 2014 #62
Look at the U of Texas studies AngryAmish Sep 2014 #64
Please link to the studies you're talking about, so I can know we're reading the same thing... Hippo_Tron Sep 2014 #66
Good post and I agree. I think that in a lot of cases the parent is frustrated over something rhett o rick Sep 2014 #49
everything about hitting to punish or teach is contradictive to what i teach my boys in life. seabeyond Sep 2014 #51
Corporal punishment was the norm when I was growing up not Cleita Sep 2014 #53
I divorced my wife finally over it bhikkhu Sep 2014 #58
the number of posters on this site who have been upholding this abuse of children as acceptable, niyad Sep 2014 #61
Fear or respect...kids learn both very, very early. Rex Sep 2014 #63
My second child was WHACKO as a two year old leftieNanner Sep 2014 #69
Hmm davidthegnome Sep 2014 #70
Agreed 100%. I haven't Jamaal510 Sep 2014 #75

treestar

(82,383 posts)
1. Yes, it's not better than that canard
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:13 AM
Sep 2014

our mothers smoked while pregnant but I was OK, we didn't use seat belts, but we were OK, we didn't have bike helmets but we were OK, etc.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
77. Add to breastfeeding smokers and pet chicken for dinner. What an infinity of worlds.
Sat Oct 4, 2014, 12:49 PM
Oct 2014

None of that applied to my family, very strait-laced. To the point of death, even.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
78. Actually, when young we sat down and ate my pet chicken, Peepee.
Sat Oct 4, 2014, 04:21 PM
Oct 2014

The mother hen had been taken by a feral cat or fox, so sister and I got to keep remaining chicks in the house, and peepee stayed longer that the rest but had to go eventually out with the others.

And one day at dinner, and we ate our own chickens, my nonnie announced that we were eating Peepee.

It was probably a year later, so no hard feelings but it was a bit odd.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
72. I dreamed I was a child again and Dad was beating me
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 08:15 AM
Sep 2014

He best me regularly, until I turned 19. The fond memories of childhood. Do you really want to be the monster in your child's nightmares, forever?

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
2. Hitting is always wrong unless....
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:14 AM
Sep 2014

...the contact prevents something dangerous from happening, like grabbing a hot pot or poisonous thing.

This matter should be settled among Progressives.

Hell, it should be settled among human beings.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
76. I gave my kid nursemaid's elbow when he dashed out in front of a moving car in a parking lot.
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 06:33 PM
Sep 2014

I felt bad about that, but the alternative was worse. The woman driving the car was freaking out. I was trying to be calm. My son was like "What?" He didn't start complaining about his arm until hours later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nursemaid's_elbow

This is the same kid who as a toddler, the instant our car had stopped, unbuckled his car seat, opened the car door, jumped out, and ran straight for a cliff at the Grand Canyon. Fortunately as adults my wife and I could both run faster.

He also managed to get himself lost a few times. In his toddler mind he was never lost, we were.

I have a younger brother who is exactly the same. I may have been the same also. My poor parents...

I never imagined I'd be leashing my own child, but it worked, especially in crowded public places like Disneyland. Who the hell cares if people look at us funny.

Punishment is a piss poor method of "training" people or dogs. For some it only makes us more incorrigible.




el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
5. I can see why that argument works though
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:19 AM
Sep 2014

If you love your parents or have a good relationship with them, you don't want to believe they were child abusers.

I was mildly spanked a few times as a child, but my parents figured out that punishing me with the corner was more effective - boredom was worse than pain to me.

Any punishment though, when looked at the right way, can be described as a sort of child abuse.

Bryant

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
11. You might want to read Alice Miller
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:09 AM
Sep 2014

to understand why our species sustains a 'poisonous pedagogy,' and why those of us who discuss parenting are met with derision, condescension and worse.

Ours is NOT a child-centric species. Some among us find it difficult to acknowledge that fact.

Also, Joseph Chilton Pierce wrote an excellent book called "Magical Child" to discuss how experiential are we humans from birth, and how important is how we provide guidance to our younglings. Since humans typically view our children as "property" and as extensions of ourselves, we have quite a ways to go in learning to be "real parents."

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
12. I don't have children and I'm unlikely to ever have children.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:12 AM
Sep 2014

I'm sorry if I offended you somehow - but I don't really understand what I said that was offensive. Many Children identify with their Parents, and don't want to believe ill of them. And any form of punishment if carried to extremes could be a form of child abuse.

Bryant

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
32. I am not offended. I was just sharing information.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 11:08 AM
Sep 2014

I am the only one of six sisters who chose to remain childless. I have recently had a skirmish with one of my younger sisters because I posted on facebook about the scarcity of "real parents" after the countless threads we've seen about child abuse/neglect/murder. She thought my post was directed at her personally--a sad statement about her narcissism and our species' inability to discuss parenting without getting defensive.

BTW, I suggested Miller, because you seem to have a similar perspective and I thought you might like to read her work. She's amazing.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
71. John Bradshaw expanded and popularized the work of Alice Miller
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 04:07 AM
Sep 2014

He also incorporates the stages of childhood development from Piaget. He's written numerous books about getting in touch with your inner child and getting needs met that were not met at that particular stage. He talks about families as systems where everyone has a role and if one role changes all the other roles change too.

He discusses the "poisonous pedagogy" which Alice Miller described and expands on it. It produces children who grow up with the defense of horrible acts as "I was only following orders". The Nuremberg defense. Obedience is more important than acting morally in that system. Obedience to parents, who must be right at all times, and children must have their will broken.

Three books I have:
Healing the Shame that Binds You

Homecoming: Reclaiming Your Inner Child

Bradshaw on The Family

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
73. Thank you so much for this post.
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 04:43 PM
Sep 2014

I have all of Bradshaw's books. I also recommend Laura Davis' "Courage to Heal." Thinking about her books reminds me of a conversation I had last night with a fellow woodcarver. We STILL do not have protocols for helping our violent younglings learn conflict resolution without resorting to violence. People who batter need resources that can help them learn better communication skills, intimacy skills, and anger management strategies, too.

But, as Bradshaw and Miller have shown, until we change our "poisonous pedagogy" -- which adjures us to "honor our parents above all else!" -- we won't see meaningful change in our species' ubiquitous relationship violence.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
74. You're welcome.
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 05:13 PM
Sep 2014

I watched both of the TV series shows he did for PBS in Houston.

I remember my dad saying "I just don't get him." I guess because he was from an older generation, he didn't get it. He was born in 1911. They believed in denial and not talking about your problems. Psychology was a black art and not to be trusted. Only "crazy people" would see a psychiatrist or psychologist. They didn't understand about long term therapy either.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
41. It isn't true that any punishment can be viewed as a form of child abuse.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:00 PM
Sep 2014

You can take away privileges, or send a child to be alone in his room till he calms down. Neither these nor multiple other "punishments" constitute abuse.

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
60. If you're of an older generation, you don't really need to be labeling your parents abusers, though
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:53 PM
Sep 2014

Psychology has evolved leaps and bounds over the last few decades. I'm sure there's millions of people out there who raised their kids in a different time and used corporal punishment, but would never even dream of it today knowing what we know now. Most parents really try to do the best they can with the information given.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
6. hitting a child demonstrates to me that you don't respect the physical integrity
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:21 AM
Sep 2014

of the child. It sends the message that force is an acceptable way to get what you want.

freedom fighter jh

(1,782 posts)
9. Yes, I think that's the worst aspect of it,
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:45 AM
Sep 2014

especially when parents are so busy saying things like "Use your words" to kids. The message from what they do is far stronger than the message from what they say.

riqster

(13,986 posts)
7. A parent who hits their child is incompetent.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:24 AM
Sep 2014

Come on, we are the adults, we should act like it. Hitting is what you do when you can't think of anything else to do.

3catwoman3

(23,820 posts)
10. It is an act of desperation...
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:01 AM
Sep 2014

...and an adult who has lost control.

I think It was Maya Angelou who said, "When you know better, you do better."

Lex

(34,108 posts)
13. As I've gotten older and have more perspective I think
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:13 AM
Sep 2014

hitting child is just not necessary. There are better ways to correct behavior, but those ways take more time and attention and a lot of parents just don't want to deal with that.

Heidi

(58,237 posts)
15. Without exception, every parent I have seen striking (a.k.a. "spanking") a child
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:53 AM
Sep 2014

was doing it out of frustration and/or anger. I grew up in Oklahoma where it seemed to be the primary means of disciplining children (especially children under 12 or 13), and I witnessed plenty of "spankings" (even in grocery stores and the ladies' restroom at church). Not once did I ever see a calm and collected parent administering a "spanking."

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
19. When my parents divorced
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:12 AM
Sep 2014

My mom moved to Arizona while my dad stayed behind, they had 2 children so they went with split custody. I don't know what led to the decisions as to who got who but a woman called the police for a public spanking in the Safeway parking lot. I don't remember it, I couldn't have been older than 3 or 4 so they switched and my dad got my younger brother and I went to Arizona. Know I wonder why that was a "solution"

My mom stopped spanking at a very young age but she resorted to manipulation & verbal abuse. I'm not sure which is worse. If I wasn't so tired & stayed up all night I would detail the worst mental torture I've ever seen. People that we both knew would tell me, "You know he used to hit her?" From what I saw from her stalker, ex-boyfriend was as bad as any abuse I ever witnessed. Starting arguments for literally no reason and kept changing subjects to irreverent shit. He had me fooled at first because he has the skills of a sociopath if he isn't a sociopath but once I saw him for what he was he couldn't fooled me. Ironically at the time he had me fooled, she knew exactly what he was, then he fooled her and I remember a line she used in an argument with him, "So you were this (guy) all along".

One thing I noticed about him, his "tactics" were so rehearsed that overtime he looked like a predictable robot but her heart broke for him and genuinely loved and cared about someone who didn't give 2 shits about her. World is a cruel place at all levels.

Heidi

(58,237 posts)
21. Jon, I'm sorry you were exposed to all that when you were a kid, and I'm sorry your mom had to
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:17 AM
Sep 2014

endure it, too. Both physical and emotional abuse are wrong, whether the abused is an adult or a child. I think we as human beings can do a lot more toward treating one another better.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
26. I was referring to someone else
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:27 AM
Sep 2014

in regards to the mental torture

but my mom had a lifelong experience w/ that sort of thing as well. She was one of the best amateur tennis players, you could make a case she was the best in the western region of the US (couldn't afford to travel to the Orange Bowl which I hear is the best amateur tennis tournament in the US). Won a ton of tennis trophies & was featured in an article in 17-magazine. The reason why is because of her dad. He'd beat her constantly(if she lost matches he felt against opponents she could beat), force her to practice long hours & endure a pretty horrible tasting diet (black-strap molasses).

Got a scholarship but quit because she was 18 & free and hated tennis but she regrets the money lost by not making a career out of it.

Then she suffered w/ my dad for 10 years and don't question her accounts of abuse. I remember a time I woke him up accidentally while sleeping on the couch so he runs to pull my hair (he was unsuccessful w/ it being too short). I remember he smacked my head against the wall while in the bath. (He favored head smacks) He was also the type to say things and not do them and tell feel sorry for me stories. (He once told me that because I was raised by my mom "I don't know what love is&quot He was a bad guy in a lot of ways.

mountain grammy

(26,573 posts)
16. My husband was beaten with a large belt as a child..
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:55 AM
Sep 2014

He remembers every time he was beaten. He was able to see how wrong this was and never, ever raised his hand to our children, not that I would have allowed it. His mother never hit him, but was an accomplice. He learned that once when he confided in his mother and she told his dad and he was beaten. He had no one to trust. Once, at church, when his dad raised his hand to wave at a friend, my husband cowered on the floor. When they got home, he got a beating for that reaction. Once he was beaten for asking "what's for supper?"
He left home at 17 and never looked back. He kept a relationship with his parents, but there was no love or warmth there in that church going, holy Christian family. He grew up in west Texas and Southern NM.

yodermon

(6,143 posts)
17. "I turned out OK"
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:57 AM
Sep 2014

I hate that line. To them I say: look if *you think you're OK, then it was IN SPITE of the hitting you received, not BECAUSE of the hitting your received.

Your caregivers must have provided just enough instances of unconditional positive regard to compensate for/ameliorate the hitting.

Also.. since you are advocating hitting kids then you are by definition "NOT OK".

(* not you, trumad, just to be clear)

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
22. I've always held that
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:21 AM
Sep 2014

if you have to resort to physically abusing your child to 'correct' his/her behavior, you're already a failure as a parent, especially in this day and age the alternatives are out there and have been for quite some time.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
23. If people say their religion dictates they hit a child, they should apply for a
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:22 AM
Sep 2014

Child Corporal Punishment license. Problem solved. Except, of course, for the abused kid, but we can't expect our Congress to pass laws to **actually** protect "the children." Protecting the children is just one of their rhetorical devices.

 

SoLeftIAmRight

(4,883 posts)
27. The science here is clear.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:27 AM
Sep 2014

Well treated children do better in life. The is a clear inverse relation to harsh treatment and happiness and success in life.

Dustlawyer

(10,493 posts)
28. After being whipped with a belt as a child I swore I would not do that to my own kids.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:34 AM
Sep 2014

They have all turned out pretty good, two with Master degrees and one going for her doctorate.
My father at least sat us down and talked to us before the whipping. He always hit 2 more times after he knew you were crying for real. He wasn't angry, just disappointed. Growing up he had to pick his own switch, but woe to the one who came back with something too small or big, they added more licks and went back and picked their own switch.
I believe he was wrong using a belt, but at least he was consistent and did not ever strike us other than the spankings.
At school they were into big paddles. My 7th grade teacher, Mrs. Roper, had "Roper's Rapper", an evil looking thing with the name burned into the wood and holes drilled through it so it would whistle when swung hard. She took pride and pleasure from beating us with it. Kinda like if you have a weapon you want to use it, she loved to use the paddle. Other teachers had them, but hers was the worst.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
29. 90% of the time a parent hits a child its due to rage and frustration
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:34 AM
Sep 2014

Rage because the parent feels disrespected by the kid, or frustration at being unable to reason with him.

If you have to resort to hitting your child, you have already lost control and failed as a parent.

And all this bullshit about what happened in the south 50 years ago is fucking lame rationalization for what somebody's asshole father did or what they did themselves.

If you beat your child you are a shitty parent. You may or may not be a criminal but you are a shitty parent.

byronius

(7,369 posts)
30. I've got proof of the opposite -- I've never struck my kids, and they turned out AWESOME.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:41 AM
Sep 2014

Me, I've got some PTSD and rage issues related to the occasional black/blue/yellow stripes put up and down my back by my BPD father, whom I hope is dead by this point.

Still in therapy over this shit. And if I see someone smacking a kid, it takes everything I have to speak up instead of simply removing them from this earth.

However -- my kids don't have any of those issues. I chose not to pass that fucker's illness down. And I asked them to honor that choice.

And they've agreed, it stops with me.

I win.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
31. How in the hell am I supposed to teach my child it's not ok to hit other people
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:52 AM
Sep 2014

if I hit him?

Someone unravel that one for me.



My parents beat the shit out of me. Well, mom spanked, but dad literally beat the piss out of me on a couple occasions for trivial things. Once, for not staying by the bar-b-que to watch it while he was getting a drink because a raccoon 'might have touched the meat'. (No raccoons evident that day, plus it was all inside a metal, R2-D2 like smoker)

This did not make me a better person. For the rest of my life, I will struggle with a temper that I learned, that I was trained to develop. My child WILL NOT experience that. I have never hit him, and I never will.

I would destroy myself before perpetuating that sort of violence.

 

maindawg

(1,151 posts)
34. I was an abused child
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 11:13 AM
Sep 2014

I had 5 different step mothers all of them beat me and my sister daily.
For 6 years Mary Hessen [i can use here name she is dead] absolutely tortured my sister every night in the kitchen. She would smack the shit out of you with no warning for the slightest reason. My father stood by and felt that children should be kept afraid but he did not have the motivation to be the enforcer. Rather , when I was 16 and my sister had run away and he was divorced again, he was absent and I was left to my own devices.
I suffer PTSD as an adult. As a child I was absorbed into that syndrome where you need your tormentors. I loved my dad and would never tell anyone that I was terrified of his wives. It was hard.

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
35. being beaten is humiliating for adults and children
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 03:07 PM
Sep 2014

it is not an act of love...it is an act of anger and frustration and control and domination. i was beaten as a child, and all it did was make me afraid to speak or act in my defense of myself. it took me years to get over that mindset. there is nothing positive about abuse.

colsohlibgal

(5,275 posts)
36. Yep, Easy
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:04 PM
Sep 2014

I spanked my son once, fairly solidly, and still feel a little guilty about it.

As for child abuse, it's easy to know what is and isn't, and Peterson crossed the line - apparently more than once.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
38. Except it isn't really easy to know, which is why you still feel a little guilty.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:53 PM
Sep 2014

And actually, that's healthy guilt because it probably kept you from making the same mistake again.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
37. Who wants to be the kind of parent with great adult kids
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:52 PM
Sep 2014

who needed five years of therapy to reconcile themselves with how you treated them in childhood?

And don't be sure it's not you, if you were one of those child-hitting parents. Your adult children had years of training from you in keeping their mouths shut.

So they only tell their therapists, their wives, their friends, and maybe, someday, your grandchildren.

Is that how you want to be remembered?

fishwax

(29,146 posts)
43. Your adult children had years of training from you in keeping their mouths shut.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:24 PM
Sep 2014

So true. Great point.

 

La Lioness Priyanka

(53,866 posts)
39. a bully with no self control is how i see people who hit children
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:54 PM
Sep 2014

at some point this was acceptable behavior (bullying of kids by parents), but it really is not now.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
42. There is a huge class divide in spanking/whupping kids
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:11 PM
Sep 2014

It is the safe and settled fact among the urban and suburban middle class whites that physical discipline is a crime. Worse than that, it is unfashionable. You see, those proles and poors do that sort of thing.

Nevermind that physical discipline of children is nearly universal outside the US. Why do French kids sit so nice at dinner? Because they get smacked otherwise. In human history not spanking your kids is the aberration.

So one class of folks, who happen to control the commanding height of proper opinion in the US, decide to criminalize normal behavior of their lessors. And they feel so good about it. As they must, since they are better than the proles.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
45. Some european countries make it illegal
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:37 PM
Sep 2014

But the rest of humanity? Also, I noticed that it is illegal in Spain and Greece. And if you spent any time in those countries then it being "illegal" and therefor unknown, is a joke.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
47. Slavery was prevalent around the world for eons, until it wasn't. That doesn't make it acceptable.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:41 PM
Sep 2014

fishwax

(29,146 posts)
68. Well, it isn't just Europe--countries in South America and Africa as well
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:44 PM
Sep 2014

Europe certainly has the largest number of countries, but they aren't the only ones. And, of course, even in many of those countries where it isn't illegal, it isn't really universal.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
46. It is a safe and settled fact that stressed out, frazzled, angry,
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:38 PM
Sep 2014

and less well-educated people are more likely to strike their children -- in any culture. And there are more of these people in lower-income groups, because of the difficult conditions they live in. That doesn't make it okay.

France, in allowing corporal punishment, is one of the unfortunate exceptions in Europe, where the practice is banned in Germany, Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Iceland.

http://www.geographylists.com/list10c.html



pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
50. For some reason you're standing up for child abuse.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:05 PM
Sep 2014

I hope that's not because you were abused yourself and intend to carry the tradition on.

Anyone as smart as you is smart enough to read the research that shows the deleterious effects on children's brain development from this type of "discipline."

Maybe the reason for the prevalence of corporal punishment among the Amish is similar to that of black people in the South. Here's a point of view from an Amish woman:

http://salomafurlong.com/aboutamish/2010/11/amish-and-spanking/

It was in the Middle Ages that the Anabaptists’ beliefs were formed, and they were persecuted for their beliefs as is witnessed in The Martyr’s Mirror, a book found in nearly every Amish home. Perhaps the persecution they endured explains why the Amish religion is still so punitive today. Punishment, or the threat of it, as a way of “making people nice” is very much a part of the belief system in Amish communities, which they instill in children from the time they can understand the concept. This is evident from Naomi’s comments about spankings. I had never heard the folding hands for prayer indicator of when a child is old enough to be corrected, but my severe grandmother had a similar one when she claimed that when a child is aware enough to put a comb to its head, then the child is old enough to be spanked.

SNIP

If people get the willies about the phrase “breaking the child’s will” there is a good reason for that. “Breaking the will” is exactly what the Amish mean. My father often used that term and he meant to do just that. I did not get spankings as a child — I got beatings. I cannot speak for all Amish parents, but I know with my own parents there was a great deal of anger and frustration that came with those beatings. The physical pain was nearly unbearable, not to mention the emotional turmoil that comes of being overwhelmed by someone so much bigger, stronger, and more powerful.

If the Amish are successful in breaking their children’s will, it means the children become compliant because they are afraid to be otherwise, which makes them vulnerable to abuses.

The most important aspect of Amish children’s compliance is that they will not question the Amish ways. When they become members of the church, they will be asked to give up their individuality to become part of the community twice a year in communion services. And those who have been “made nice” are happy to accommodate.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
54. I am not Amish.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:38 PM
Sep 2014

My handle is a tribute to a professional wrestler. Oops, by identifying with a professional wrestler I have identified myself as a prole. That is Very Unfashionable, and marks me.

BTW, Amish folk don't use computers.

While I was born in the US, my parents were not. I have had the opportunity to travel and see this as a very specific cultural panic.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
55. People who were raised Amish and left the community usually use computers.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:45 PM
Sep 2014

You have the wrong handle if you don't want to be identified as Amish to people who are unfamiliar with professional wrestling.

 

phil89

(1,043 posts)
52. Is that evidence that hitting a kid isn't child abuse?
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:14 PM
Sep 2014

it's ok because other cultures accept it?

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
59. there is nothing "normal" about beating humans who are smaller than you
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:42 PM
Sep 2014

your frustrating life does not give you liberty to take it out on your kids, or your dog, or your wife. there is nothing normal about violence, especially against children.

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
62. Please do share some peer reviewed studies demonstrating this class divide
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:57 PM
Sep 2014

I'm anxious to read them.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
64. Look at the U of Texas studies
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:29 PM
Sep 2014

But, please, in real life, have you had a time to live amongst the proles? Of course not. We are too coarse and common.

Best leave the discipline to your governess.

On edit: us poors cannot even spell coarse correctly, us the wretched.

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
66. Please link to the studies you're talking about, so I can know we're reading the same thing...
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:38 PM
Sep 2014

And yes I have lived amongst the "proles" in a dark red bible belt state. Data isn't the plural of anecdote, which is why I want to see studies.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
49. Good post and I agree. I think that in a lot of cases the parent is frustrated over something
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:54 PM
Sep 2014

and take it out on the child.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
51. everything about hitting to punish or teach is contradictive to what i teach my boys in life.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:12 PM
Sep 2014

how silly would it be for me to implement, while sabotaging all the work n lifei lessons.

and it does not work. is not effective. and does not give the boys tools to resolve issues, like the much more consuming disciplines in other manners. thinking thru, making good choices cause of reward/repercussion, personal responsibility.

my parents did the belt. rarely. they were not angry doing it. it was reasoned. i was not abuse. and i do not look poorly at them. that was their learned way, and at that time, they were clueless of any other ways.

i was much older with kids. my mom told me, before she died, she wish.... she wish she had parented like i did.

a whole lot of reasons that is an unreasonable wish. she was 20. with three. in three years. poor (stress). and in the 60's,

i was in 30's. financially secure with two spread out and a hubby that had a big hand in parenting, in the late 90's

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
53. Corporal punishment was the norm when I was growing up not
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:32 PM
Sep 2014

only at home but at school. I actually got spanked less than most of my friends because my mom and dad sometimes were too lazy to follow up on any spanking threat after a scolding. However, that doesn't mean because most of us survived and turned out all right that it should continue as a cultural practice. Evidence proves it's not effective and even harmful. I mean our parents smoked around us too, but that doesn't make it right either. I have life long asthma I believe is partially the result of that and I'm sure most of us oldsters have health problems relating to our parents smoking and ourselves too when we grew up because of their example.

bhikkhu

(10,708 posts)
58. I divorced my wife finally over it
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:11 PM
Sep 2014

She was never terrible, as far as I know (I work a lot, and she was home with the kids most often), but the one thing I told her was that she should never do it in anger, and I always thought of it as a failure in parenting if one had to spank a child. Two years ago my older daughter was "in a mood" and said some awful things, which she's done from time to time and has been good about apologizing and making amends for later. But this last time my wife was in a mood too, and hit her and pushed her. Afterwards, she told my daughter (who was sorry) that she deserved it, that she was lucky she didn't get worse and that next time she get punched in the face where it would show.

I can't imagine telling that to anyone, much less a child who loved me, and I can't imagine losing my temper and then justifying it instead of being sorry...it was like suddenly being married to a stranger who'd become someone I didn't even want to know. in a long talk with my daughter I tried to explain how some people think, how to get past it. But she determined that she'll never have kids herself, afraid she'd be like her mom, and I started working on the divorce the next day.

niyad

(112,440 posts)
61. the number of posters on this site who have been upholding this abuse of children as acceptable,
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:54 PM
Sep 2014

with all sorts of rationalizations and mind-bending justifications, has been pretty sickening.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
63. Fear or respect...kids learn both very, very early.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:02 PM
Sep 2014

Which will you use as a parent? Quite often parents will be confused into thinking fear means respect, but fear just means hate and loathing. Which seems to cycle through into the next generation.

leftieNanner

(14,998 posts)
69. My second child was WHACKO as a two year old
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 11:06 PM
Sep 2014

and it was really tempting to swat her - but hitting was just not the way I was going to raise my children. When she would melt down into a screaming tantrum, I would pick her up and place her on her back in the middle of the living room rug. "Let me know when you're finished." I would say as I left the room. That gave her the space to finish hollering about whatever made her mad and it also allowed her to calm herself down and be done with it. Those welts on that little 4 year old boy's body (Peterson's son) make me sick.

davidthegnome

(2,983 posts)
70. Hmm
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 11:12 PM
Sep 2014

There's a good bit of difference between someone who spanks their children, and someone who actually slaps them, punches them, pulls their hair or kicks them. There's also quite a difference between a slap on the hand and a beating with a stick. As a child, I got spanked a few times, I have one clear memory of being slapped upside the head and one of being slapped across the face. When it comes to that kind of physical discipline, I don't think it did either of us any good. It gave me a fear of my father, and gave him a guilty conscience for doing it. Of course, he was raised with a hell of a lot more discipline than I was.

My dad never beat the crap out of me. Not like some other kids in the neighborhood I knew. He learned his methods from his own Father and it was basically that "spare the rod and spoil the child" mentality. Many years later... we're both convinced that that's absolutely the wrong way to do things.

There are many, many ways in which to discipline a child without physically hurting them. Considering my own experience, I'm not going to judge a parent for spanking their children. I don't agree with it as a method of discipline, as I think it's actually counter-productive and can lead to psychological issues - but it's not my business, either. Yet when a parent goes beyond that, to leave their children with bruises, cuts, or worse... something needs to be done. The difference is obvious.

It's something of a slippery slope when it comes to legislating every particular. For instance, there are parents with children who have severe behavioral issues, even to the point of biting, kicking, punching, or otherwise attacking their parents or siblings. There are methods for proper restraint, but very few parents know these. Most, I suspect, would physically restrain their children using inappropriate methods, perhaps even spank them or push them away. It can be extremely difficult for those particular parents to manage, particularly if they are poorly educated, living in poverty, or had abusive parents themselves.

I certainly don't know all the answers to this one, but I do agree that there is no excuse nor justification for beating a small child out of your own anger and frustration.

Jamaal510

(10,893 posts)
75. Agreed 100%. I haven't
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 06:18 PM
Sep 2014

seen anyone so far (even on the pro-corporal punishment side) actually supporting the abuse of children or injuring them. There is a huge difference between a few swats to a child's backside and hitting to the point where there's bleeding or injury. I don't condone how far Adrian Peterson went in disciplining his child. I think he was out of pocket, but at the same time, punishments like time outs and taking away toys, games, etc. don't always work for every family. That why I disagree with people who say that all forms of corporal punishment should be illegal.

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