This is so disturbing! #Ferguson: Black vs White

[sheshe2]

St Louis County Opinions on #Ferguson: Black vs White

Posted on September 16, 2014 by SouthernGirl2

This is so disturbing!

According to the survey taken, Michael Brown’s SKIN was his SIN. Unarmed, running away, surrendering doesn’t mean a DAMN thing. Whites in St Louis County says Darren Wilson was justified for shooting down Michael Brown. It makes you wonder about who is on that Grand Jury.

1. Was Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson justified in shooting Michael Brown?
Whites: Yes (62%)
Blacks: No (65%)

2. Who is most responsible for the violence in Ferguson after Michael Brown’s death?
46 percent of whites blame organized street gangs for the looting and chaos that gripped Ferguson for days after the shooting. Blacks blame law enforcement and community activists, both with 27 percent. Only 7 percent of whites said law enforcement was to blame.

3. Was Michael Brown targeted by Officer Darren Wilson because of his race?
Whites: No (77 %)
Blacks: Yes (64%)

Read the Rest: http://3chicspolitico.com/2014/09/16/st-louis-county-opinions-on-ferguson-black-vs-white/

[Stellar]

1. Rewrite on Lawrence O'Donnell: Why are new Ferguson witnesses different?

Why are new Ferguson witnesses different? (Go to the rewrite)

In the Rewrite, why are two new witnesses to Michael Brown’s death with similar stories to other witnesses we’ve heard from being treated as more trustworthy? From CNN Breaking News.

http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word

[sheshe2]

4. Thank you for the link, Stellar. LO'D is always spot on.

Now I get why CNN is changing there tune about the witnesses they heard in the past, nah they were not credible they were black. The new witnesses stating the same scenario are WHITE! so obviously more credible. MICHAEL BROWN WAS SHOT IN COLD BLOOD!

WOW! Color me shocked! Not!

[Cali_Democrat]

18. I keep bringing this up in other threads.

It used to be that blacks weren't allowed to testify against whites. Now white America, especially the media, does all they can to discredit them.

Welcome to America.

[sheshe2]

20. I don't want to say "F" America, Cali_Democrat.

Yet sometimes I do. It is a sad part of our history, not all are like that however. The media are whores to the corporations that own them. They spew what they are told to. It's why I stopped watching TV a long time ago.

[Cali_Democrat]

26. Yes of course!

Not all white people are like that. I didn't mean to imply that!

I was mostly referring to the media and right wingers.

[sheshe2]

31. Hey..

I knew you were not saying that, Cali_Democrat

[Stellar]

8. Jeffrey Tobin sat there looking like a damned fool when their lawyer was asking

why now' when every witness has said the same thing, and their telling of the death of Mike Brown makes a total of 8. But because the last two were white....it's now it's 'BREAKING NEWS!!!!!?'

[sheshe2]

22. The look on Jeffrey Tobins face said it all.

Yes he looked like a damned fool, Stellar. White men speak, people listen, black people speak...meh! I am so beyond angry here.

[jwirr]

2. I am white and this is indeed disturbing. Apparently St. Louis County is a very sick area of the USA

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. It is no doubt reflective of the entire country

I doubt this poll would look different anywhere in the United States.

[Number23]

27. "I doubt this poll would look different anywhere in the United States."

It wouldn't.

[whathehell]

28. It would look different in New York, San Francisco, and most of

the metro areas of the blue states, IMO.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. I grew up in NYC

I very much doubt you'd get a different result.

[whathehell]

36. I don't know what it was like when you grew up there, but the city

that voted in Bill De Blasio as mayor would not give you the same result.

[alcibiades_mystery]

37. Wasn't that long ago

Scratch the surface of white NYC and you will find majority support for the police in dealing with African Americans. Obviously, the percentages skyrocket as you radiate outwards. Ask 25 white New Yorkers in bayside, Howard beach, bay ridge, college point. That 63% number will look pretty small.

[whathehell]

40. Then why did they vote in Bill DeBlasio?

He campaigned on ending Stop and Frisk.

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. Who is "they"? White New Yorkers?

diBlasio squeaked by in the primary and won the mayoral election against a nobody and lunatic with less than 25% of registered voters participating. The same city elected Giuliani twice and Bloomberg twice. The poll they conducted in St. Louis separates the questions for whites and blacks. The mayoral election in 2013 does not. But let's look at the neighborhood map of results:

http://www.nytimes.com/projects/elections/2013/general/nyc-mayor/map.html

If you know anything about New York City, you pretty much know what those red areas have in common. Now look at those light blue areas all over Queens: Fresh meadows, Bayside, College Point, Auburndale (Bayside-Flushing) and East Flushing: diBlasio wins by a slim percentage on very low turnout. Ditto on large swaths of South Brooklyn. Why? If you know New York, you know why: those neighborhoods are increasingly "mixed" in racial composition, primarily with newer immigrant populations, but they retain an older core of working class white voters. These voters will occasionally vote for Democrats, but they are very pro-police.

Again, if you ran the St Louis poll on a cross section of white New Yorkers, you might see a slight drop off based on Park Slope and the East Village and similar, but as soon as you left those areas, it wouldn't look that different from St. Louis results.

[whathehell]

43. "They" are all New Yorkers voting.

If you need to cling to the depressing, not to mention incorrect notion, that

there's little variation in America or Americans, Red States and Blue

be my guest, but frankly, I think you're just disgusted and depressed,

[alcibiades_mystery]

46. You just happen to be wrong about New York

Last edited Wed Sep 17, 2014, 08:42 AM - Edit history (3)

You haven't challenged a single analysis I made of the New York geographical voting pattern in the diBlasio election. It demonstrates that diBlasio was elected with a very large minority vote, and a more or less split vote on miniscule turnout in the majority white neighborhoods of NYC - that is, in those he didn't lose outright (Whitestone, Queens went for Lhota, for example, which is rather shocking given the citywide numbers - the same for most of Staten Island; Dyker Heights, Brooklyn; Douglaston; etc., etc.). But you've probably never been to Whitestone, never hung out in the bars with the construction workers and cops and firefighters and union carpenters, or most of the other neighborhoods of the same type. You actually don't know what New York is like.

[whathehell]

47. Your "analysis" of White New Yorkers racial views suffers from an obvious sampling bias..

It's based on the 25 percent of registered voters who showed up for this election.and a few guys you met in bars somewhere.

The attitudes of the remaining millions are a matter of pure speculation on your part.

[alcibiades_mystery]

49. You're acting like your speculation has any evidence to support it

The fact that turnout was so low actually works against your point: turnout was low precisely in the white areas, so the mayoral election proves little about attitudes among white New Yorkers, except that they don't square with your own speculation.

They weren't a "few conversations in bars" but a lifetime of being around and being friends and family with white working class New Yorkers, a group you know nothing at all about. Not part time transplants from King of Prussia or some other Philly suburb, but actual New Yorkers.

[Feral Child]

54. He's not alone, what.

I agree with him that you'll get a very similar result almost any where in this country, if you break down that same query by race.

Remember, this was specifically broken down by race. New York may be blue overall but if you run the same poll and rank the answers the same, you'll find the answers very similar.

Also remember that NYC has a large minority population. That might effect a general election to reflect less racism, but broken down by race, your voting numbers might show bias similar to this poll.

Further, a Democrat as mayor is no weather-vane of racism. A white person could vote Democrat due to union affiliations, and still not be progressive otherwise.

It may be depressing but I'm afraid you're clinging to an overly optimistic POV, rather than we being buzz-killers.

[whathehell]

59. Until you have a survey like the one done in Ferguson, it's ALL just speculation..

You can think I'm clinging to an "overly optimistic" POV, but I think you and

the other "America is all the same" folks are clinging to an negative one and until

you have serious backup, like a survey, it's absolutely noting but speculation.

[Feral Child]

61. You're entitled to your opinion

and I can't support my stance through outside polls or surveys. Perhaps the information exists but I'm disinclined to research it. Whichever, the truth is that there certainly is a problem in Ferguson/St. Louis County and, even if that problem is universal, that doesn't excuse Ferguson.

Have a nice day, wth!

[whathehell]

62. Yes, I am, but I'm just wondering about something

and that is why you brought up Ferguson, because I certainly never disputed the

the fact of there being a problem in Ferguson -- Freaking A, that's obvious.

[Feral Child]

63. I'm a bit confused

I certainly don't mean to be rude, but I have several other threads going and I had to look back over our exchange to understand your question.

The OP in this matter (http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5546772) was about a poll conducted in Ferguson re: racial problems and different perspectives. We diverged into a discussion of racial attitudes in NYC, based upon an observation that the problem in the Ferguson/St. Louis County area is universal throughout the US.

I hope that answers your question.

[whathehell]

66. Wow..So am I.

I understand -- I think.

My point was that the problem in Ferguson is NOT universal, that it's not

like NYC or a number of other places in America. My opinion is that there may be bias,

and racial disparities in outlook, but certainly not to the extent revealed by the survey

done in Ferguson. When you responded to my post, you said I was entitled to my own

opinion, BUT Ferguson was a problem. I merely responded that yes, I was entitled

to my own opinion, which differed from yours, but there was NO difference of opinion

between us on the fact that "Ferguson is a problem".

[Feral Child]

67. We can certainly agree on Ferguson

and the problems there.

I chose words poorly. When I said you are entitled to your opinion, I didn't mean it in any negative sense, although that phrase often means that.

What I should have said is that your perceptions are different than mine, but they are equally valid. I'm not an expert on race-relations, I can only judge by my experience. Same for you.

Apologies if my poor choice of words failed to express what I meant, that I value your opinion.

Hope this clarifies. I had no intent to offend.

[whathehell]

68. Yes, certainly..

and thanks for confirming your intent...No hard feelings on this end at all.

[Feral Child]

69. Cool!

[whathehell]

70. Yes, it is.

[Mr Dixon]

64. WOW

WOW That map is awesome do they have that for every state?

[alcibiades_mystery]

65. They usually have county level interactive maps for statewide

I'm sure they have precinct level, too, though it wouldn't be as relevant. The neighborhood map view is really telling in this case. In high "minority" areas De Blasio was taking sometimes 96% of the vote and higher. My favorite is Laurelton, Queens, where De Blasio got 5,137 votes, and Lhota received 53 votes.

But the map supports my contentions, if one knows the neighborhood compositions. Glendale to Lhota, Middle Village, Maspeth. Then De Blasio with 96, 97, 98% of the vote in Canarsie, East New York, Brownsville.

Hell, even in Manhattan, Lhota won the Upper East Side and Yorkville. I mean, come on. It couldn't be more clear.

[whathehell]

32. Substantial doubt, actually.

Saying otherwise would be like saying there is no difference between El Paso, Texas and New York City.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. Not much difference in racial attitudes

And majority white uncritical support of the police, especially where a black male is involved. Have you ever been to the the outer boros in NYC? I grew up in em, go back often. You might get a small drop off (maybe 58% support for Wilson) but I doubt it.

[whathehell]

38. Again, I disagree, and

yes, I have been to those outer boroughs..I lived in NY for awhile and grew up in Philadelphia...I think that New York

as a whole would respond, not with a perfect lack of bias, but with much less than St. Louis Missouri.

[ColesCountyDem]

12. I live 70 miles SE of St. Louis, and it's the most racist, segregated city in America.

It's been that way for, well, forever.

[jtuck004]

15. It's not a bit different than any other place out there. n/t

[whathehell]

33. Of course it is..

The country is very regional..Barack Obama could never have been elected president, oherwise.

[jtuck004]

42. The bodies laying in the streets and the people locked up in jail say otherwise. "Dances with the

Stars", one might say, has nothing to do with many ordinary lives today, except where they are used as a source of revenue or food.

I can understand the agenda that would drive such an opinion. Don't have to waste my time with it.

[whathehell]

44. The President in the White House represents AMERICA..

The "bodies on the streets and the people locked up in jail" represent the police force

and the judicial system, but by all means, don't "waste your time" with critical thought,

just whine and judge all white Americans as "racists".

[Feral Child]

52. I've lived in several cities, in different regions.

Including St. Louis City and County.

It's everywhere the same, jwirr. Racism abounds in this country, and most especially in our law enforcement agencies.

Also white, also disturbed.

[jwirr]

53. That makes me very sad. So that leaves us with the question I first asked "Why?" What makes us

so bigoted that we will allow our police forces to harass and even murder a whole population?

I do not find this in myself but then that might be because my sister married a black man and she has three wonderful daughters and my two daughters married First Americans and in one case First Americans who have black ancestry. From my daughters marriages I have 5 grandchildren and from their marriages I have 12 great grandchildren. I am the minority in my family.

I honestly do not understand hating another race.

[Feral Child]

55. Although I recognize that even among liberals

there's an unintentional, condescending sort of well-intended racism at times, I think the very concept of racial-superiority is absurd.

Here's my reasoning: I'm a confirmed and absolute atheist. I believe in neither a deity nor an after-life. I am absolutely convinced of the rationality of evolution. Accepting that evolution is real and true, it follows that understanding of human evolution places the beginnings of humanity in Africa. Follow any lineage far enough back, and you'll find African ancestors.

We're ALL children of Africa, some of our ancestors just left willingly and/or sooner.

[jwirr]

56. I like that.

[Feral Child]

57. Thank you, jwirr.

I've given a lot of thought trying to comprehend racism. Although the reasons for NOT being a racist fuckwad are clear to me, I've still not come to any understanding of why racism exists.

It baffles me, even from those who don't accept evolution. All the races produce amazingly outstanding individuals; doctors, lawyers, artist, leaders. How any person can deny the equality of the races (or genders, for that matter) is so puzzling that I can only suggest deep-seated emotional/mental disturbance as the cause; how else can they deny reality so?


EDIT: just for the record, I'm a whiteguy.

[noiretextatique]

3. two americas

nothing has changed.

[Liberal_in_LA]

5. expected

[1StrongBlackMan]

6. I'm so glad we live in a post-racial America ...

I was saddened in the early days of Ferguson when the media interviewed the Mayor and he proudly proclaimed that there was absolutely no racial divide in Ferguson.

[sheshe2]

9. "I'm so glad we live in a post-racial America ..."

Ah yes, 1SBM. It's over, oh wait, it's not.

We can hope for the best and know in our hearts that it will not change anytime soon. The hate is there for the world to see in Ferguson. In all it's shock and awe, Ferguson brought a festering wound front and forward. It's in our face the most blatant attempt to shut the black community down.They want to shut you up and put you in your place, just like they have for more years than I wish to remember. Ferguson and the Mayor are in denial, sadly our Country seems to be in denial as well.

[jwirr]

19. I may be out of the mainstream here in a rural area that is very liberal but I do not think that

pole would look that way here in NE MN. But then we have a very small black population compared with St. Louis County.

What I wonder is "Why St. Louis County?" Is it because of the Civil War era? Because of the kind of mini civil war right there in MO when they fought neighbor against neighbor not south against north. If I am correct that state never chose a side to belong with in that war. It is almost as if they never ended slavery or jim crow in Ferguson MO. Has there ever been a time when they tried to get along? When they worked toward something better?

What have their churches been doing during all of this? I know that the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church is headquartered in St. Louis MO. And I know that some of the clergy that helped in the streets during the protests were from this large church body. But having been raised in this church I also know that they do not get very involved in issues like racism. How much of the blame for this ongoing treatment of the black part of the community can be laid at the doors of this and other churches in the area.

It bothers me that this is happening in the 20th century as if they were still in the south before the war. Where being black really was a crime. Where education has not reached most people. Is there anyone out there that understands why some of the country has seemed to grow up while this little section of the world has lagged behind because they want to treat a part of the population as somehow inferior?

In watching what was going on during the entire protest I and the rest of the country learned what was happening to one race in this area. Now I want to know why. I want to know what makes this area tick? If we an understand this one area maybe we can help to stop this from happening again in Ferguson MO and across the nation. Too many people have died at the hands of the police or people like George Zimmerman all across the country. It has to stop for the sake of our country. We cannot be half free. It does not work.

[logosoco]

29. I don't really know the answers, but your post was thought provoking.

I live in a semi rural area right next to St. Louis county (where these "white witnesses" are said to have come from). I grew up in the Kirkwood area, where the Lutheran synod is. Now, I am not at all religious, much to my Catholic mother's disappointment, but I live in an area with a lot of churches.
When I went to school in Kirkwood, there were quite a lot of black kids, and I guess I was more friendly with them, because I was much poorer than most of the people in the area and my parents were divorced, when this was not common. I grew up thinking the whole country was this way. (I also grew up thinking most lawyers were helpful to poor folks because my mom worked for Legal Aid in St.Louis). What a surprise I got when I grew up and saw more of the country. It even took me a while to notice we moved to a community where there were not many black people, although some minorities have moved here since we have been here (28 years). It is fairly inexpensive and only semi-suburban! It goes back and forth from voting Dems to voting repubs.
But, the reason I bring this up is because for many years, Kirkwood had a pretty largish area where black families lived, right down the street from the Lutheran synod. Some said it had a "bad" reputation, but I knew many people from there and I never had a problem. I didn't get what people were saying really, they just seemed like working class people to me. Anyway, about 15 years or so ago, they bought out most of the houses in the neighborhood to build a new Target, Walmart, Lowes, etc. I didn't get it. They had plenty of other open areas to develop. But instead they took away the black community and inexpensive homes. There are mostly nice people there, or so I thought until I saw this poll.My mother lives still where i grew up, but to me there is always this sense of people acting liberal and open minded and such, but this happened in the community very recently.
When I see the numbers on this poll, I am saddened but maybe not too surprised. I am hoping that the murder of Michael Brown will make a difference, the changes are long,long over due. But it is going to take so much work.

[jwirr]

48. Thank you. When I went to one of their Lutheran colleges there were both black and First American

students there. Today there are none. Or if they are not many. I was one of the poor white students and there are not many of us around either. The church itself has a black ministry because that is where the volunteers on the street in Ferguson MO came from so they seem to still be involved some.

As to moving the black community out that was most likely deliberate. The value of the school goes up!

I don't know but I do agree with those who say that the poll would look different in blue states.
I may live in a rural area but I visit Duluth and the twin cities and have family living in both. Our communities do not use their police to make money for the city. Our police do not have a whole bunch of military equipment etc.

I am not saying the there is no racism. Our community is made up of white people, black people and First Americans. We all go to the same schools, churches, play on the same teams, intermarry and visit with each other. Our police are as likely to arrest a young white male as any of the other races. And one of the big differences is that they do not run around enforcing little dinky laws like jaywalking or selling cigarettes from an open pack. We do not have gated communities with untrained bullies policing them. There are a lot of reasons why our poll would be different than the Ferguson MO poll.

Well as you can tell I am still upset. Thanks for answering.

[Number23]

7. Contrast this to another incident where a white man was BREAKING INTO his girlfriends home

at 3 am. The police asked him to leave.

Think about that. Michael Brown was killed by police for walking in the middle of the street. This guy breaks into his girlfriends house at 3 am and the police basically shoo him away. Does anyone think that police would have been half this accommodating if this guy had been black?

And the fact that the guy came back to his girlfriends house after the police left and killed her before cannibalizing her just makes all of this so much more disturbing and obscene and maddeningly hypocritical. http://www.ibtimes.co.in/indiana-man-kills-his-ex-girlfriend-eats-her-heart-lungs-brains-video-609193

Not that the "cops were justified/the black person is ALWAYS wrong" crowd will give the first damn.

[sheshe2]

11. I am grateful to say that the page would not fully open for me.

I was only able to see the picture and the first sentence. I think I will be sick now.

However, I get your point Number23. Two colors, two men, Black and White are treated differently. I wish I knew how to change that. I honestly do. My heart breaks for all the Michael Browns that have been murdered in cold blood.

[damnedifIknow]

13. 62 percent thinks Wilson was justified

How? Do they read and comprehend? As a white I'm absolutely disgusted and bewildered. I seriously can't believe this.

[Maraya1969]

16. When I put up the video where the one guy has his hands up saying, "He's got his hands up!"

Because the snap shot of the video was of this guy and not Michael Brown and I used the words, "Michael Brown's hands were up" I was hit by 2 high school racists and one, kind of, family member who is a fundamentalist Christian racist. They were so offended that I did not offer proof that Michael Brown's hands were up, (no white witnesses I suppose) and then went on this bullshit about the black crime rate. So of course I had to pull out the statistics behind the statistics and found that based on the percentage of blacks and whites in Ferguson and the number of stops by police and the number of, "HITS" as in contraband...............whites represented less of the population than blacks yet they had the highest number of "HITS"

So in Ferguson the white people are the most criminal. Imagine what would happen if the cops stopped profiling and this information came up in a way that the stupid racists could understand?

[sheshe2]

23. I too am white and simply appalled. eom

[Dont call me Shirley]

14. Appalling to me. I was born with white skin. This is sorrowful.

[sheshe2]

25. I too am white.

I am appalled.

[Dont call me Shirley]

50. We are all born onto this earth. We are all equally deserving of the resources of this earth,

because we were born on this earth. There is not one person more special and deserving than any other. No one deserves to steal from another, or steal someone else's life, to make another lesser than themselves.

To those who do not know and understand this, evolve already. You're almost too late to the happy life party. Get off your misery lifestyle and become inclusive. Stop ruining this beautiful world for the rest of us, party poopers!

[marble falls]

17. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

[onecaliberal]

21. Ashamed with the depth of stupidity

That people actually think their skin color makes them better than someone else. What the hell kind of brain thinks that way?

[sheshe2]

24. onecaliberal...

I think they lost there humanity a long time ago.

[onecaliberal]

58. Yes, you are right about that.

I just can't for the life of me wrap my mind around that.

[hugo_from_TN]

30. Reminds me of the racial divide after the OJ Simpson verdict

The majority of whites thought he was guilty and the majority of blacks thought he was innocent. Different lenses on the same event. Everyone has their tribe biases embedded.

[TDale313]

39. This depresses me.

Not surprised, unfortunately, but angry and saddened.

[AuntPatsy]

45. Yes it is, and after reading story's on the recent incident by officer but the difference being

The victim is white, it was amazing reading through different articles, the language used, child, young man, 17 year old, the media reacted so different with Michael it continues...

[napkinz]

51. welcome to the United States of ... Ferguson

[whathehell]

60. LOL!...Only when San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Oregon are El Paso, Texas

This is one of the MOST clueless assertions I've seen made on DU.