The notion among the Party's Deep Thinkers is that Bernie is a disaster.

[Jackpine Radical]

They argue that Bernie will cost many more votes due to defections from the right than he will gain from pulling in the "Nader" Left.

This argument is, to put it in the vernacular, Bullshit! It's based on the myth that America is a "center-right" country, and the alleged "center" is to the right of the Democratic Party.

Many Americans have been trained to define themselves as conservatives, Reagan Democrats, etc., & their poll responses about party or ideological affiliation cast them as fairly far to the right.

However, when the polling gets down to issues, this is not the case. The majority of the population is pro-pot legalization, pro-gun control, pro-single payer, pro-choice (including a majority of Catholic women), pro-environmental, etc. They are not necessarily going to vote the way the Blue Dogs and DINOs expect them to. You could well imagine activating a 10% voting surge on the left in response to a Bernie, accompanied by a 5% defection on the part of a few DINOs who can't handle the fact that Bernie is a *gasp* socialist!

But the Republicans have just about exhausted that socialist label, and a lot of people aren't going to care about symbolic crap; they will care about basic quality-of-live issues, and if the Dems have any moxie at all, they will wrap themselves in those real-world solutions and push Bernie out in front as the battle flag.

[sendero]

1. Being a compromised third way doofus..

.... does not make you a "deep thinker".

[Ken Burch]

6. I pretty much agree with that...

although, when you really think about it, wouldn't it be worse to be an UNCOMPROMISED third way doofus?

[jtuck004]

55. And much more common. It's where there heart really is. n/t

[Jackpine Radical]

13. Note quotes around "deep thinkers."

I meant "deep thinkers" like Jack Handy. The Party Pros who always know so much more than us & live in a world where the only objectives are to bring in lots of contributions & to occasionally win, but who have no interest in actually doing things for unions or for the poor once they attain office.

[sabrina 1]

61. Don't you love it when these dufuses tell you how politically naive you are? That you 'don't

understand Politics and HOW IT WORKS?? That always cracks me up because it shows how out of it they are. The fact is, it is BECAUSE we understand how politics works, and it is HOW it works that we object to. They are stuck in the 'way things are' with absolutely no vision as to how they could and ought to be.

[LovingA2andMI]

84. THIS ^^^^^

Thank you and correct. We the People are Smarter than they EVER think we are.

[rhett o rick]

118. You had me with "dufuses". Well said. nm

[QC]

141. Yes, it's always a hoot when people who mindlessly bleat

conventional wisdom, which is always conventional but never wise, congratulate themselves for being the grownups, wise beyond measure.

[SheilaT]

173. + 1,000.

"Always conventional but never wise . . ."

It's probably a result of our educational system, but most people simply do not know how to analyze something, how to weigh evidence, assess alternatives, come to a rational conclusion.

The problem is compounded by religions which emphasize Bible study, and I'm not just talk about the fundamentalists here. The Bible is the original short-attention span piece of literature. It contains absolutely no sustained narrative of any kind. Everything in it is set out in short "verses", which many people happily memorize and trot out at supposedly appropriate moments as if some pithy saying 25 words or less, is an actual answer to some complex problem.

[hfojvt]

175. "Wisdom calls aloud outside"

Proverbs 1: 20

I think it is rather naive to underestimate the power of the S-word. Rightwingers use it because of its power. Democratic politicians have spent decades running away from it because of its power.

Because Bernie has embraced it, he can never be the nominee of the Democratic Party.

As the Naderites love to point out, even somebody as moderate as Gore could not win his own home state. Heck, he barely won Iowa, a state that Kerry also lost 4 years later. Is Iowa going to vote for a socialist? Is Wisconsin? You know, the state that defeated Feingold and elected Walker. Is New Mexico?

The election of 2012 was fairly close. Just flip 2-3% of voters in ten states in 2016 and you are looking at a Romney landslide.

[SheilaT]

178. "Wisdom calls aloud outside"

I cannot begin to guess what that means, especially in this context. Come to think of it, "All your base belong to us" makes just as much sense.

Which is my point exactly about quoting brief things as if they are actually profound or represent careful analysis of something.

[sabrina 1]

224. They found the word 'pragmatic' a few years ago and have clung to it like glue to

explain condescendingly to us lesser beings what bad policies REALLY are, they are, they tell us who are too dumb to get it, 'pragmatic'.

I looked it up once, the word and found it has quite a history, and I don't think it quite means what they think it does.

But that's the problem with being a blind loyalist, you just do what you are told, never lead, always follow and be willing to spout talking points without thinking.

[beerandjesus]

155. ...and let's not forget how many elections the conventional wisdom has LOST for Democrats!

[Jackpine Radical]

188. This is one of the most beautifully eloquent posts I have ever seen on DU.

You are so precisely correct.

[frylock]

194. reality-based real world realists

[tazkcmo]

201. I love reading your posts.

You often say what I'm thinking but am too not shmart to express it well. Thank you.

[sabrina 1]

225. Aw, thank you, but you seem to do fine yourself from what I have seen.

[Veilex]

234. Indeed!

Though, as one of the not-quite-enlightened, could you explain the term dufuses for me?

Thank you in advance!

[Art_from_Ark]

239. "Dufuses"-- plural of "dufus"

Alternative spelling: "doofus" (DEW-fuss)

Meaning: an addle-headed person, or, as the Scots would say, a "dunderhead" or "eejit".

Hope that clears things up

[Veilex]

240. DOH!

Should have recognized that... some times my wit is a bit slow on the uptake.




Thanks!

[sabrina 1]

327. Thank you! n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

295. If you think Bernie Sanders can become a Democrat and win the Election....

you are by definition politically naive...

[sabrina 1]

311. I don't 'think' anything, I KNOW that the system is so corrupted now that

no one who isn't beholden to Corporations can get anywhere near the WH.

It may not be the time yet where the people overwhelmingly reject Corporate Funded candidates, but sooner or later it will happen or this country will continues its decline.

[VanillaRhapsody]

312. THE SYSTEM? Fuck....we just watched nearly 100% of Scots vote in an election....

and 50% of Americans do not even know that we are having an election in a few short weeks.....

The very people who's very lives depend on protecting the progress we made.....don't vote in the Midterms....and one party that directly in their faces right out in the open seeks to disenfranchise voters at every turn....


And lets not forget.....Your ideals....as nice as they are....and how cool that individually most people agree.....BUT reality tells me....at least half of them...WOULD NOT vote for a candidate who professed said ideals. God Bless yah....you are naive if you don't understand the American voter and take THAT part of the equation into account (by the way....joining the whole "both parties are the same bandwagon" perpetuates the very phenomenon ). And there in lies the rub.....the very things you say....contributes to the very problem.....

[sabrina 1]

314. You have a point there. Taking democracy for granted is not a good idea.

But, there is also the fact that many voters feel their votes don't county.

[VanillaRhapsody]

315. repeatedly telling them the same thing that Rightwingers tell them....

is NOT helping with that problem now is it?

Its driving people NOT to pay attention.....the audience we are speaking about DO NOT hang around Democratic Underground......but going around from the Left and spewwing the ridiculous statement that "both sides are the same" has the identical result......you drive voters AWAY from the voting booth. And the Rightwing thanks you for that approach. They speak to that same audience in short marketing phrases....they are excellent at that......and it works....You are driving people away from doing EXACTLY what YOU ALL will end up doing in the end.....which IS vote for the Democrat.

See what I mean?

[sabrina 1]

316. If they're so excellent at it, how come the numbers are so high? See what I mean?

You seriously underestimate the intelligence of the average voter. It is insulting to the general population to claim that millions of Americans are so stupid the only reason they don't vote is because of DU, although how that could be if they are NOT READING DU, is yet another mystery often contained in these false memes.

It is the exact opposite of what you appear to believe. Many voters have watched and participated in a system that they have come to believe is so corrupted it is merely a 'show' to pretend this is still a Democracy.

To overcome that it would be necessary to give them a REASON to vote. What you are doing is the exact opposite. The only reason you are giving them is 'we are not as bad as the other guys'. THAT is why so many do not vote in this country. This 'lesser evil' garbage.

But someone like Bernie Sanders could change all that. He is the antithesis of the failed 'lesser evil' candidates. He has a RECORD to prove it.

I know from talking to some people who don't feel their votes are worth anything that someone like him would indeed motivate, COULD cause millions of people to register for something they can VOTE FOR.

Stop telling people 'this is how it is, we are better than the other people' YOU are simply verifying for them why they don't vote. GIVE THEM SOMEONE THEY CAN TRUST and all that will change.

[VanillaRhapsody]

317. YOU ARE naive if you doubt the marketing abilities of the Rightwing...

its ALL they have.....well that and gerrymandering......because the numbers do not favor them....WHEN WE VOTE....WE WIN!!!!

You are not going to get a sudden surge from that group to the Left....particularly when you are helping keep people FROM voting.

THAT'S the reality on the ground.....

States Evidence Article 1

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025566399

[sabrina 1]

326. YOU are helping to keep people from voting. It is DEFEATIST to keep on, election after election

telling people 'we can't WIN because of MARKETING. THEY ARE SO GOOD AT IT, so GOTV for the LESSER CORPORATE EVIL.

THIS is a perfect example of WHY people no longer have any faith in a system where in every election they are told 'we can't WIN' so just SETTLE'. Great campaign strategy there!

There is no LEADERSHIP rallying voters to oppose their stupid marketing, just 'look, there's nothing we can do'.

Thanks for the demonstration of why we have such low voter turnout.

'If you aim for the Sky you may hit a TREE'

Keep on aiming for those trees ... and nothing is going to change.

[VanillaRhapsody]

328. that's bullshit and YOU know it.....

you take it for granted that everyone is politically savvy as those that hang around Democratic Underground....

THEY are not....


YOU are are an Idealist....admirable....but its not realistic.....you don't take how people react and act into your logic.

And the link I provided....shows you why....You cannot just expect a good portion of the populace and voting populace to use logic and rational thought when they vote....they don't many will agree with you in theory...on individual issues alone....but when it comes to candidates that espouse those same views....they do the exact opposite.....

.which is WHY you all are DESPERATE for Bernie Sanders to become a Democrat. Because the electorate won't accept him as the Socialist he is....YOU ALL would rather he fly under the radar with a Democratic label as camouflage...EVEN as YOU ALL spend all your time trashing DEMOCRATS and telling the public that "Both parties are the same"

Its naive or hypocritical....YOU decide.

[sabrina 1]

329. I'm for taking bold action when it is necessary. Nothing important has ever been

accomplished by fear of failing. And with the Dems now viewing the money you mentioned, as something THEY need to get also in order to outdo the Republicans, we can look forward to things getting even worse.

They need to CHALLENGE the Republicans with a committed campaign against those Wall St funded candidates, listing their funding in every campaign and asking the question 'Who will this candidate be working for? YOU or the ones who bought him/her'?

And if they don't do it the people will have to do it, and they ARE. When the people lead the government HAS to follow. We ARE the government, people seem to forget that.

[VanillaRhapsody]

330. and THAT my dear woman....is idealism that DOESN'T lead to wins.....

I like puppys and cotton candy and flying cars too....but just liking them doesn't make them reality.

Politics ain't hopscotch or tiddlywinks.....you have to deal with reality one way or another....I prefer taking the bulls by the horns.

Why DOES Bernie Sanders NEED to become a Democrat to win???

REALITY!




And YOU know its true....but you all want to trash Democrats night and day....meanwhile you KNOW Bernie Sanders has to become one in order to win....AND in the end.....you all vote for the Democrats anyway.

But then deny the other reality.......that you are actively denying ^^^^ that reality while you come here to piss and moan about Democrats! And while you are doing that you are participating in suppressing the vote with your bullshit hypocritical rhetoric! You also play a role in WHY so few in the U.S. vote....

[sabrina 1]

331. It's called REALITY. You get nothing if you don't fight for it. THAT is also Reality.

And when the political leadership refuses to fight, then the people have to step in.

Not like it hasn't happened before. It HAS, and thank the gods for those who have ideals rather than the cowards who are afraid to open their mouths because 'that's the way things are'. We wouldn't even have a country if it weren't for the Idealists.

[VanillaRhapsody]

332. Its called Hypocrite....because the reality is...you know....YOU Too will vote for the Democrat

whoever that is!

Oh and so is expecting Bernie Sanders to become one to win! If what YOU think were true....he wouldn't have to.....

[sabrina 1]

333. The current iteration of the DemLeadership will not accept Bernie Sanders

as a candidate. They are for Corporate Candidates. So either he runs as an Independent or they will not let him run. Want to bet?

[dflprincess]

338. I think in most states he doesn't need the okay from either the National or state party

all he would have to do is file as a Democrat. In a caucus state like Minnesota as long as he said he was running as a Democrat I don't believe he'd have to do anything but say that (no state filing) and he could be supported at the DFL caucuses.

True, the party hacks could work against him, but they can't stop him from putting a "D" after his name.

[sabrina 1]

339. That's good to know, thank you.

[pa28]

337. Yes, I've had people on this site patiently explain that I could benefit from a basic civics course.

Last edited Sun Sep 21, 2014, 10:14 PM - Edit history (2)

There are actual living, breathing people right here who believe American politics operate just like your second grade teacher laid it out in class. These are the same ones who will tell you how naive and ignorant you are for expecting change from the Democrats we worked so hard to elect.

Seriously, you just can't spend your time engaging such special individuals. They are hopelessly lost.

[Cleita]

31. Best assessment there is.

Thanks.

[YoungDemCA]

230. ...

[DirkGently]

2. The only thing that's "center right" is the money.

Last edited Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:05 PM - Edit history (1)

And that is why we continue to have people arguing that we have to go right to get left. "First, we'll take the money from all the people causing these problem, then we'll do the opposite of what they asked us to do when they handed the money over ..."

Which is insane, and will never work, and also about normal for the U.S. political conversation.

[Laelth]

8. Well said. n/t

-Laelth

[Veilex]

62. +1

[raouldukelives]

92. Precisely. Amazing how fast that money makes ethics & morals vanish.

The only answer is getting corporate money out of politics. The only answer until they do is make sure they have as little of yours as possible. Every dime in them goes to efforts against us.

[ReRe]

94. That's right...

It's similar to the actual right's "trickle-down theory" gimmick. Just like "trickle-down", the "go-right-to-get-left" theory has not delivered. It turned right, alright, but it forgot to turn back to the left. Or at least we have been waiting for almost two 8-year terms for it, since 1992, 22 long years ago now.

[maddiemom]

165. It IS the MONEY, stupid!

Funny how so many of us simple folk, who "don't understand Politics" are convinced if we could, at best, have publicly financed election campaigns of shorter duration; at worst, get rid of Citizen's United and similar recent SC decisions, we'd be ninety percent on the way to getting our electoral system straightened out. Oh, that and getting rid of the electoral college system.

[VanillaRhapsody]

3. GASP!!!

Then why doesn't Team Far Left.....let Bernie run as a Socialist.....and you guys who think everyone supports you....find the resources to get him across the finish line on YOUR merit?

IF you really stood behind YOUR theory....that is the logical conclusion....instead...MOST of you say Berni will switch parties....SO who is being disingenuous here?

[leftstreet]

16. Let the people recruit the candidates they want

Whenever the ThirdWay shit hits the fan, the first thing apologists do is start haranguing the base about GOTV !! WHY DON'T YOU WORK TO GET THE CANDIDATES YOU WANT, HUH??!! START PETITIONS !! BLAH, BLAH, BLAH !!

But the minute the base even THINKS about doing that very thing...

[VanillaRhapsody]

24. What are you talking about....YOU are expecting to shove a non-democrat....down the

Democrats throats....AND then call them NOT Democrats? Nothing hypocritical about THAT at ALL!

GMAFB

[leftstreet]

28. My, my. n/t

[Fuddnik]

30. Why not?

The Florida Democratic Party recruits Republicans to run as Democrats, and refuses to help, and even undermines liberal or progressive candidates. And it usually ends in a disaster, as expected.

Fuck. We've even got a repuke running the party.

[VanillaRhapsody]

36. WTF does the State of Florida have to do with Democratic Underground?

we are talking fucking Florida here for crying out loud! That's the best you could do to justify your position? Florida???

[Fuddnik]

87. You're talking about ramming non-Democrats down our throats.

FDP does it with regularity. That's how we wind up with Rick Scotts and Jeb Bushes in a state with majority Democratic registrations.

And a main reason I quit the party.

[VanillaRhapsody]

210. Yes I am....and its against TOS to boot

oh and you quit the party? Don't let the door hit ya on the way out....thanks for admitting you are just here trolling!

[ReRe]

99. First, sit down.

Second, take 10 big breaths, each in and out real slow. Now, have someone bring you a stiff drink.
Now drink it, real fast.

[VanillaRhapsody]

211. drink why? I am totally in the right....completely....

You Bernie supporters that are DESPERATE for Bernie to become a Democrat....need the stiff one!

[ReRe]

216. Oh, believe you me, we are...

... tipping the glass to him. Go Bernie!

[sabrina 1]

130. And the NJ Democrats ENDORSED the Republican, Christie over their own very good

Democratic candidate. Enoough of the hypocrisy from these people who are constantly in a state of outrage over VOTERS deciding who better represents DEMOCRATS. While THEY endorse people like Christie and as you say, recruits Republicans over Democrats.

Time to start exposing these practices every time they try to bully VOTERS.

[VanillaRhapsody]

212. why do YOU care what the Democrats do anywhere?

Are you professing to be one now?

[sabrina 1]

226. Why are you defending Dems voting for Republicans?

[1StrongBlackMan]

227. As a DUer very familiar with NJ politics explained at the time ...

NJ politics is a strange animal based more on tit for tat and retribution avoidance, than partisanship. So that example doesn't hold.

[sabrina 1]

228. Sorry, I'm very familiar with NJ politics. It's a blue state where Dems had a chance to get

Christie out of office, he was already battling controversy and was very vulnerable. IF the NJ Dems are that corrupt themselves, then the Party needs to do something about it, no? Like maybe back a pretty decent candidate like Buono.

Making excuses, you know what, we are sick to death of excuses. I am so tired of hearing excuses for blatant corruption and wrong policies while the VOTERS are blamed when Dems lose the house.

Let's stop doing that. It certainly isn't going to make things better to say 'oh well, that's how it is there'.

Dems HANDED Christie that undeserved and unnecessary victory, and that is a fact. And then they tell us we MUST vote Democratic. How about they set an example?

[dflprincess]

32. Is everyone in the Clinton crowd afraid of Bernie

or is it just you?

BTW it's not those of us who'd like to see Sanders run who are trying to shove someone down other voters' throats.

[VanillaRhapsody]

37. I love Bernie....but BERNIE is NOT a DEMOCRAT.....Period end of story!

THAT's the shoving part!

[dflprincess]

42. Sanders has every right to run in the Democratic primaries if he chooses to do so

if you still want to support a corporate sell out because she's been putting a "D" after name, do so. I choose support traditional Democratic values.

[VanillaRhapsody]

44. Bernie HAS to become a Democrat first....

so much for YOUR Democratic Values!

And if YOU think Bernie is soooooo electable....and can beat ALL Republican comers....


Then why not run Bernie as the Independent candidate??? Why would you want him to sell out HIS values for yours???

Especially since you seem to dislike the Democrats!

[dflprincess]

53. My Democratic values tell me it takes more than putting a "D" after your name to be a Democrat

Yes, I dislike the corporate wing of the party and you must be really worried that a lot people do or you wouldn't get so upset whenever the subject of Bernie's running comes up.

I don't expect Bernie to sell out - if he decides to run as an independent, I will resign the office I hold in the local DFL (an office I waste time with because I just hate Democrats so much) and for the first time since 1972 skip my precinct caucus so I can support him.

You sound a lot like the conserva-dems who told me I was wasting my time supporting Wellstone the first time he ran for Senate - they said he was unelectable too.

[VanillaRhapsody]

54. Yes...you have to win elections!

[Veilex]

69. "or you wouldn't get so upset whenever the subject of Bernie's running comes up."

You noticed that too eh?

Seems to be awfully consistent.

[VanillaRhapsody]

208. who's upset? Seems to me those that are desperate for Bernie to become a Democrat

are the desperate and upset ones!

All I keep saying is...THIS is Democratic Underground and Bernie is NOT a Democrat...

So stop trolling here for him!

[Veilex]

232. "who's upset?" Considering the near apoplexy you consistently display anytime somone mentions

Bernie's chances... I'd say you are.

"Seems to me those that are desperate for Bernie to become a Democrat are the desperate and upset ones" Oh you! Trying to force that label BS down our throats again.

But I understand... for you, labels speak louder than words.

"All I keep saying is...THIS is Democratic Underground" Yes it is! and guess what? We like to talk about senators who hold our values near and dear.

Bernie supporters consistently couldn't care less what label he wears... they care about his actions... and Bernie acts consistent with Democratic values... certainly a heck of a lot more so than nearly any other congressional member... and most assuredly more than HRC.

Thing is, I find it rather odd that this opinion of yours, that talking about Bernie Sanders is somehow verboten on this website, has only recently surfaced... and that you've not expressed it with past videos or articles dealing with him.

If you truly think I'm "trolling here for him", then you can always alert me.
I guarantee, you'll never shut me up any other way.
I think you'll find yourself being a lone wailing voice in that attempt though.

[VanillaRhapsody]

235. Wow....now you are psychic and can diagnose me as apoplexic on the Interwebs?

Is that YOU Dr Frist?

[Veilex]

236. Don't need to be psychic to see you're full of anger.

The shoe fits pretty snug on that foot of yours so I guess you get to wear it.

Oh, and that's a pretty terrible deflection from your inability to shut me up.

[VanillaRhapsody]

237. bullshit.....you mistake confidence for anger!

Just because someone proves you wrong...doesn't mean you get to project YOUR anger onto them!

Just because you hate that I bested you doesn't mean you get to pretend I am angry.....that's not anger....that's called being sure...

[Veilex]

238. Now I know undoubtedly that you're quite angry.

The hefty dose of defensiveness, projection, and claiming of superiority give you away.
Your particularly angry and bombastic style of commentary paints a very definitive picture of your emotional state.

You can make whatever claims you like.
You're not now, nor will you ever be, entitled to your own facts.

Cheers

[VanillaRhapsody]

241. no obviously you dont

As you dont know what you are talking about. But ill play along. How does my state of mind make you right? Never have understood thi silly position that if a person gets angry it means you win. Is that your intended purpose to just piss people off. If it is you just failed. YOU are not important enough to me to get my feathers ruffled. Projection....

[Veilex]

242. If it makes you feel better, you just go on believing that.

As I said before:

If you truly think I'm "trolling here for him", then you can always alert me.
I guarantee, you'll never shut me up any other way.

I think you'll find yourself being a lone wailing voice in that attempt though.

[VanillaRhapsody]

243. it doesnt make me feel snything frankly

This is just a forum. I try to keep the internet in perspectve. So should you.


And Bernie is still not a Democrat so shilling for him here is against TOS.

[Veilex]

244. "Bernie is still not a Democrat so shilling for him here is against TOS" - Then report me.

We're done here.

[VanillaRhapsody]

245. Yeah you are.....

why should I report it....I like just reminding others of the facts....are you disputing it?

[Veilex]

246. "why should I report it" - Or don't... it makes no difference to me.

Its your assertion... and your lack of action reflects upon your character.
Not mine.

[VanillaRhapsody]

247. do YOU dispute it or not?

That question has nothing to do with my "character" not that I care what you think about that....

[Veilex]

304. "not that I care what you think" - You clearly do. Else you wouldn't try to change my mind...

or ask me what I think.

[ReRe]

101. Because...

... Third-way, Grand-Bargaining, Corporatist, double-crossing "Democratic" candidates ARE NOT REAL DEMOCRATS, Vanilla. They're just not us. And Bernie is more of a REAL Democrat. Bernie is going to run as a Democrat, like it or not.

[Enthusiast]

132. PLUS ONE, a huge bunch!

[VanillaRhapsody]

214. Same to you....but more of it!

Go start the Independent party......Bernie is one of THEM....

[VanillaRhapsody]

213. because YOU got no party......

YOU are an Independent....remember?

How the fuck is that even logical? He is more of a "REAL Democrat".....that is fucking Ridic!




Please oh please say more....I am enjoying the belly laugh at the hypocrisy!

[ReRe]

217. You say you're laughing...

... but me thinks you're weeping, with all these protestations. Vanilla, everything is going to be alright. When we finally get a Democratic candidate, we know we are all going to vote for him/her. And if I'm and Independent, then you're a REPUBLICAN.

[VanillaRhapsody]

248. WHAT the Fuck would make you think I am crying?

The candidate I currently support has the highest polling rate AND the best ground game established...AND can beat ALL Republicans....


If YOU cannot commit to vote for whomever wins the Democratic Primary then you are not one by default.......I am not a Republican BECAUSE I have NEVER, nor would I EVER consider voting for anything BUT a Democrat....the Democrat that my fellow Democrats .....democratically elect with a Primary.



CAN YOU say the same? No? Perhaps it is because you are only a Democrat if YOU get YOUR way.....but that is not how Democracy works is it?


IF Bernie Sanders became a Democrat AND then the Moon and Stars align.....and he somehow managed to beat all the other REAL Democrats in the Primary...I WOULD vote for him....SEE that is the difference between YOU and I ....and YOU and a true Democrat. You are only one if YOU get what YOU want.

[ReRe]

255. Again, SWEETHEART...

... calm down! We're on the same side!!! If HRC is the candidate in the general, I'll vote for her. Did I ever say I wouldn't vote for her in the general?

BUT, if Bernie does change his party designation to Democrat and throws his towel in the ring, I will vote for him in the Primary.

Are we crystal clear now? Get. A. Grip.

Peace!

[VanillaRhapsody]

257. Ah calling me SWEETHEART and telling me to calm down

is tantamount to sexism...KNOCK IT OFF!


Let me ask you this....If Bernie doesn't become a Democrat....and Hillary Clinton wins the Democratic Primary by democratic election....who do YOU vote for? Bernie right?....shazaam YOU are an Independent.

[ReRe]

267. WRONG!

I vote for HRC! (If I'm don't have a heart attack or a stroke on the morning of the election!) What did I just tell you? Are you gaslighting me? Bernie is not going to run as an Independent. You must have a low opinion of Bernie if you really believe that he is going to run as an Independent in the General Election of 2016. I rest.

[VanillaRhapsody]

270. Then WTF is YOUR problem?

BERNIE cannot run as an Independent and win.....that would be foolish....but don't for one minute think that if he did it would be a cakewalk to the Primary....and then a cakewalk to the Presidency.

Independents are DESPERATE for Bernie to run as a Democrat....because Independents are unorganized!

[ReRe]

275. I said...

... I rest.

[VanillaRhapsody]

276. I am defending the Democratic Party....I said I vote for whomever wins the Primary

those that cannot say that....get their feelings hurt when I point out that they are then not a Democrat by default but an Independent.

If Bernie would by some miraculous event win the Primary I would vote for him.....but we both know....that is ridiculous.

[ReRe]

278. You're probably right...

Let's bury the hatchet, OK?

[VanillaRhapsody]

280. ONLY if you commit to voting for whomever wins the Democratic Primary....

even if it IS Hillary Rodham Clinton!

[ReRe]

285. Si, amigo

I'm off to the climate march now... oops... that's tomorrow!

[VanillaRhapsody]

287. Agreed then.....what I am doing is going after and exposing the pretenders

by pointing out the truth to them......this gets their little fee fee's hurt.

[ReRe]

288. Vanilla... I am NOT a pretender... n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

290. I know....You just proved you are not.....you are then not a target.....

that's my point....but you would be surprised at how many there are that will NOT make that same pledge on DU.....

[whatchamacallit]

149. Sorry

no one gives a shit about your rules and stipulations. Understand it's a freethinking/self-determination/democracy kind of thing.

[VanillaRhapsody]

249. Its not my rules or stipulations....

its simply a FACT.

Its just how politics work.

YOU all are just Fair weather Democrats.....you only vote for them IF you get YOUR way....


pfffffft!

[whatchamacallit]

313. I vote for principles, ideals, and good governance

You vote for a team.

[thesquanderer]

45. I'd say he's more of a Democrat than the blue dogs are.

Unless you think Democrat is defined by nothing more than a letter next to your name.

[VanillaRhapsody]

46. thats the point....YOU don't get to say!

[thesquanderer]

57. If Bernie wants the (D) after his name, he'll get it. So I guess HE gets to say. (n/t)

[VanillaRhapsody]

68. AND even if he did....he would STILL be a longshot to win the primary....and another to win the

the Presidential....

YOU want to gamble on a long shot.....I don't! And seems the rest of the Democrats agree with me!

[Veilex]

75. "YOU want to gamble on a long shot" Ahh that old tune...

this would be you attempting to shove HRC down people's throats.
HRC in not inevitable... that must just burn you right up.
In fact, Bernie is in the best position to "de-throne" the anointed HRC.
Its no wonder you rail against him so much...

"I love Bernie" - We can tell... about as much as you might love a bad rash.

[aggiesal]

88. Obama was a long shot ...

and that gamble paid off.

[Ecumenist]

177. AMEN, Aggiesal, AMEN! You took the words right out of my mouth...

[aggiesal]

183. Thank you. This is the closest emoticon I could find to represent a bow.

[VanillaRhapsody]

209. He was an ACTUAL Democrat.....NOT a longshot that an Independent candidate is

now IS IT?

By the way....going up to the primary....I didn't support the "longshot" Obama....

BUT I am a real Democrat not an Independent.....I accept the decision of my fellow party members....we are Democrats...and that's kinda how Democracy works....ya know?

[aggiesal]

218. Good to hear, ...

because when Sanders registers as a Democrat and wins the nomination,
you'll be voting for him in the general election.

Very cool.

[VanillaRhapsody]

277. And so far he hasn't .....in all these long years he has considered running.....he never has....

Until then....he is NOT one....and ineligible to be supported on DU per TOS

My argument is with those that cannot commit to voting for whomever wins the Primary....If they cannot say that....then they are an Independent by default.

I will vote for whomever wins the Democratic Primary how about you?

[Union Scribe]

283. Still pretending you're an admin here huh?

I've yet to see the mass bannings over support for Bernie Sanders. Maybe I missed them. Or they missed me.

[VanillaRhapsody]

284. I am not the one "pretending" anything...I am a Democrat....

its the Independents who are the "pretenders".

[aggiesal]

300. All my previous posts ...

I've always said if Hillary get the nomination,
I would hold my nose and vote for her in the gerneral election.

I do not agree with her corporatist politics. She's more right than Obama,
It would be like voting for Reagan, and I hate Reagan.

[VanillaRhapsody]

250. THAT gamble was on an actual Democrat....

BIG difference in how long the shot is....


How often do YOU think longshots work by the way?

[Man from Pickens]

187. I'll gamble on a long shot

if it's the only shot I got

What do I have to lose? If we don't take this shot we're guaranteed another 4-8 years of corporatism and war.

[VanillaRhapsody]

251. WTF have you got to LOSE?

ARE you fucking kidding me? Have you looked across the aisle lately? Would you like a President Cruz or President Paul....please tell us...


How totally shortsighted THAT is!

[Man from Pickens]

309. Have you looked at some of what's on this side of the aisle lately?

I mean, come on - Hillary Clinton? Seriously? Is there really that much difference between she and John McCain?

Because that's really what we're discussing here, we either get Hillary Clinton, or we get some alternative - and the only serious alternative on the horizon is Bernie Sanders. (Suggestions for additional names welcome.)

[rhett o rick]

67. And you "get to say". How audacious. Why do you think you can speak for Democrats? nm

[VanillaRhapsody]

252. I don't get to say....its just a fact.....

I AM a Democrat.....you cannot commit to voting for whomever my fellow democrats select in a democratic primary...and THAT is how it works...

YOU just want YOUR way....or you threaten NOT to vote.....its political extortion and I ain't payin' I want to WIN.....I want to kick Republican ass....

[Veilex]

71. "YOU don't get to say" - Ummm...actually, its his opinion...so, yes... he does.

[VanillaRhapsody]

253. No he doesn't....there are TRUE Democrats who commit to voting

for whomever the rest of the Democrats select in a Democratic Primary...


And then there are those that vote for Democrats only if they get their way....SEE the difference?

[Veilex]

307. "No he doesn't" - the world according to VanillaRhapsody

Everyone gets an opinion.
Even you.
Just because you don't like it or rail against it on this website doesn't change that fact.

[closeupready]

147. Uh, yeah he does actually. "Democracy" is what that's known as.

[VanillaRhapsody]

254. Democracy is what is known as a Democratic Primary.....

and committing to voting for whomever WINS said Primary. APPARENTLY you have a misunderstanding about how Democracy works. It doesn't mean YOU get YOUR way....

If you cannot commit to whomever is democratically elected by Primary....you are not really one....YOU are an Independent by default.

[A Simple Game]

152. This is still a democracy, we DO get to say!!!

Bernie is a winner, his election numbers show that; don't tell me you are backing Hillary. Are you afraid that you may be backing a two time loser instead of just a one time loser?

I really don't understand your anger, in one breath you say Sanders is not a Democrat, is unelectable, and not worthy of our consideration and in the next breath you fear he could spoil the chances of a "real Democrat" to win the primaries and then go on to lose in the general election.

Why do you want to limit the number of people running for President? Logic would say that the more choices you have the better chance you have that a good candidate will run and win. Do you also want to limit the number of people that can vote?

[VanillaRhapsody]

256. Bernie cannot win against Republicans.....period

and before that he would HAVE to win against ALL other ACTUAL Democrats in a Primary.

I am telling you...should the bird of paradise fly up Bernie's nose and he wins the Primary I would vote for him....however YOU cannot say the same. Therefore YOU are an Independent. By the way....if Bernie ran against the Democrat....would you vote for him or the Democrat even if it is Hillary Clinton?.....You vote for Bernie of course...therefore I am afraid you just outed yourself as an Independent!

[A Simple Game]

310. Yes I am independent, although I prefer unaffiliated. I have never tried to hide that fact.

Do you have a problem with my being unaffiliated?

Why can't Bernie win against Republicans? He has already proven he can win against Democrats and Republicans often by overwhelming majorities, Hillary couldn't win against candidate Obama in the Presidential primaries let alone against a Republican.

Yes, if by "should the bird of paradise fly up Bernie's nose and he wins the Primary" you mean he becomes the Democratic nominee, I will vote for him. Why would you say I cannot say the same?

Who would I vote for if the Democrat is Hillary and Bernie ran against her? That's two years away and neither may even be running, but as per DU rules, and because the rules match how I want to vote, I would vote for the most liberal candidate that had a chance of winning. And yes in your hypothetical case that would not be the Democratic nominee.

Again I didn't "just outed yourself as an Independent!" I am not an independent or even a member of the Independence party, I am "unaffiliated" and have never denied it, I am in fact proud of it. I have sworn an oath to myself that I will always vote for the best, in my mind that equates to the most liberal, candidate for United States President, Senator, or Representative, state and local elections may vary. Who have you sworn to vote for, or do you let someone else pick for you? I bet you vote for the best candidate for a party, not the Country.

Remember the best candidate(s) can't win if you don't vote for them.

And to repeat: To all concerned, I am not a registered Democrat or anything else, I am unaffiliated!

And although apparently some don't like it, one more thing: You and I "Do Get To Say!" Not some member on an internet board, not DU, not the Democratic or Republican parties, You and I get to say, and nobody can stop us.

[Dont call me Shirley]

49. Bernie caucuses with the Democrats, close enough.

[VanillaRhapsody]

51. Actually NO not close enough.....he has to become one to run in the Primary....

Now if you are soooooo confident about Bernie's ability to gain the votes....why aren't you confident enough to run him as third party? HMMMMMM??????

If Bernie is your new "saviour".....then go bold or go home!

[Dont call me Shirley]

60. Calm down, calm down. Bernie is very popular. He is not my savior, I do that on my own.

Thom Hartmann has been saying that a Bernie run would push the Democratic Party back to the left.

Bernie should enter the race as a Democrat. Bernie's ideas and words resonate with the majority of Americans.

Democrats must run a progressive candidate if they intend on winning. They must counter this right wing agenda, which has no counter to slow it down. They lost 2010 because they weren't speaking loudly against the awful GOP agenda. People do not want center right governance.

The majority people polled want a democratic socialist governance, even though they couldn't tell you what a democratic socialist is. But they do know they want money and rancor out of politics, good jobs, a fair shot in life, a good education, quality time to spend with their families, good health care, a clean environment, clean healthy food etc....

[VanillaRhapsody]

64. Nothing to calm down about....Facts are Facts....

Bernie is not a Democrat....not likely to become one....and even if he did....would likely not win the Primary....AND he stands a huge risk of losing against a Republican...


So yeah....YOU want to gamble OUR lives on a long-shot.......Let's not and say we did shall we? I am apparently not nearly a big a gambler as you are!

[Dont call me Shirley]

76. Did I say I would vote for Bernie as an Independent? When did I say that?

Calm down and don't jump to conclusions.

I'm the last person who wants another GOP "terrarist" in the WH. Or in the house. Or in the senate.

But we MUST push the Democrats left, not just talking left but doing

Bernie presently has the mojo to push them to the left.

[stillwaiting]

144. The poster you are responding to is THE most combative and aggressive poster on DU.

If they don't meet the definition for a disruptor on this site I don't know who does.

Every time they get into a conversation it is to condescend, belittle, ridicule, and aggressively mock.

I LONG for the day that they are gone.

As a matter of fact, I'm putting them on "ignore" now which is something I rarely do, and usually a pizza is served up to any poster I put on "ignore". I'm really hoping it happens here. The poster is beyond disrespectful and disruptive. They have no respect for other DU posters. At all.

[QC]

170. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible for any poster who professes to support the president

to be considered a disruptor, no matter how he or she behaves.

You know, someone who wants to shut down meaningful discussion here could easily take advantage of that fact. Hmmmm. That would explain a lot.

[VanillaRhapsody]

271. Or just someone who vigorously supports the Democratic Party....

against the Independents who cannot commit to supporting whomever wins the Primary....

[Dont call me Shirley]

179. Thanks stillwaiting. She needs to practice quite a bit of still waiting.

Hence my calm down comments.

Either she's a troll or just an extremely angry person. In either case, I feel sorry for her troubles. All we can do is continue to implore her to learn to calm herself, learn some self comforting and go to a qualified therapist.

[VanillaRhapsody]

272. I don't need to calm down....I am standing up and fighting for my party.....

I will not be told to be calm by "Independents by default".

[navarth]

195. You're putting it mildly. nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

273. NO I am putting it FIRMLY.....Believe THAT!

[navarth]

302. When I said putting it mildly,

I was not speaking to you.

Each time you shout you hurt your own case more.

EOM

[VanillaRhapsody]

268. At least I respect the Democratic Party Primary....

If defending the Democratic Party is a problem for you on DU....

[VanillaRhapsody]

258. If you have to choose between Hillary Clinton as the Democrat or Bernie as Independent

who do you vote for?

I am not "jumping" to any conclusions....they just are...

[CentralMass]

73. A low salt diet and a switch to decaf might help.

[QC]

142. But what if the very point is to hijack threads

by flooding them with childish personal attacks and non sequiturs so that actual discussion becomes impossible?

I'm just sayin'.

[VanillaRhapsody]

274. and what if THE POINT IS to DEFEND the Democratic Party?

Are you committed to voting for whomever wins the Democratic Primary? I am....how about you


Actually I think many on this thread are getting their fee fees hurt by the truth and someone standing up for that!

[VanillaRhapsody]

259. right right right....like I have never seen this idiotic tactic....when you lose the argument

accuse your opponent of being "upset" or what have you....

it means you lost.....

[WorseBeforeBetter]

318. "Idiotic tactic," indeed.

Actually I think many on this thread are getting their fee fees hurt by the truth and someone standing up for that!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5562398

Keep going, you're hilarious!

And mark me down for preferring Bernie over Hillary. Thanks.

[VanillaRhapsody]

319. did I accuse someone directly?

or is it a response to people saying I AM upset?

Idiotic indeed...GAH!!! Independents!!!

[WorseBeforeBetter]

320. You're making a lot of assumptions.

Is that a really smart thing to do?

[VanillaRhapsody]

321. I am currently assuming you are incredibly desperate at this point....

and it shows...

[WorseBeforeBetter]

322. In the immortal words of Sid...

[VanillaRhapsody]

323. Yeah....I don't blame ya....hide your tears behind a smiley....

maybe it will work this time....

[WorseBeforeBetter]

325. Mahalo.

Another one for ya:

[xxqqqzme]

93. Maybe but he is more of

a Democrat than quite a few senators who sport a (D) behind their name.

[VanillaRhapsody]

260. THAT makes no sense whatsoever.....

If your choices are Bernie as a Third Party....or Hillary Clinton after she wins the Democratically elected Primary.....who do YOU vote for?

If you say Bernie Sanders....YOU just became Independent.

[dotymed]

157. Bernies actons

show him to be more of an FDR Democrat than any other politician. He is the ideal Democrat. He is for the people not the money. That is what the Democratic party is supposed to stand for yet he has so far remained an Independent so that he can caucus with the party but he is not forced to put party first.
The party abandoned us years ago, Bernie has never.

[VanillaRhapsody]

261. Bernie is STILL not a Democrat.....no matter WHAT you say...

If you have to choose between Hillary Clinton as the Democratic Primary winner....or Bernie as Third Party?

Who do you vote for? If you say Bernie....YOU just became Independent....THAT is how it works.

[rhett o rick]

65. You continue to make the mistake of believing in labels. Sen Sanders is more of a Democrat than

H. Clinton-Sachs that gave up her integrity to, of all people, Georgie Bush the Dim-Son.

[Veilex]

79. +1000000

[VanillaRhapsody]

279. Have you ever noticed the title of this Website?

do you ever notice IT contains a "label"

Let me plus 10000 myself for having noticed that!

[Veilex]

305. "Let me plus 10000 myself" - yeah, cause no one else will.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

324. Yeah, "Underground." Fits Sanders, not Hillary.

Since we're obsessing over labels 'n stuff. Or at least one of us is.

[laundry_queen]

120. +1000 nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

262. I don't believe in "labels" I believe in the Democratic Party.....don't YOU?

[Veilex]

66. "YOU are expecting to shove a" REAL democrat... and no SHOVING is required.

Bernie is a real democrat... and that's a hell of a lot more than I can say for HRC.
Oh wait...you're still stuck on the label thing

[VanillaRhapsody]

263. You don't have to shove ACTUAL Democrats down ACTUAL Democrats throats...

We have something called a Primary.....If you call that wearing a Label...I wear it proudly!

IF you don't believe in the Democratic Party....then you are an Independent by default. Sorry to disappoint you with the Label!

[Veilex]

306. " You don't have to shove ACTUAL Democrats down ACTUAL Democrats throats"

Which is why so many have embraced Bernie Sanders. He's more a Democrat than HRC.

[LondonReign2]

180. "YOU are expecting to shove a non-democrat....down the Democrats throats"

I think you are confusing Sanders with Clinton

[VanillaRhapsody]

264. Clinton IS a Democrat....and the likely winner Democratically elected in the Primary....

But Independents want to shove Bernie down the Democrats throats....and Bernie hasn't even become a Democrat...nor is he likely to....You desperately WANT him to become a Democrat....because you Independents are impotent and Bernie cannot win any other way....You all are paper-tigers...

[Rilgin]

206. Inauthentic Argument

Are you saying if Sanders is the Democratic Party candidate for President, you will not do your utmost to GOTV and elect him? Or are you saying you will not vote for him? Your sentence that only his supporters have to get him over the finish line raises these questions. It seems I have heard similar attacks on people who express a lack of support for the establishment candidate in the primaries. To be directly similar I could say "Dont you know that not working for, supporting and voting for Sanders if he is the Democratic candidate is wanting the republicans to win.

The more major and less ironic point is that no one is a democrat or republican until you register either as a voter or as a candidate. You are trying to stifle discussion of Sanders by saying he is not yet running as a democrat. Under this standard, at this point in a campaign, we could not discuss any candidates.

For example, Hilary right now is neither a candidate NOR a democratic candidate for president. She is free to run as an independant or republican if she so chooses. This is somewhat a technical point but candidates have changed parties to run in the past and they will in the future even if we do not expect Hillary to end up outside the democratic party.

However, it is entirely relevant in addressing your point. If it is not appropriate to consider Sanders as the democratic candidate because he has not declared as a democrat as opposed to an independant, then its inappropriate to discuss Hillary as a democrat until she actually declares as running as a democrat.

If Sanders ends up electing to run as an independant as opposed to a democrat, come back to the argument with your point. Until then, stop trying to stifle discussion of alternative candidates.

[VanillaRhapsody]

265. I have ALWAYS said....IF by some strange set of circumstances Bernie wins the

Democratic Primary....I would vote for him BECAUSE I AM a DEMOCRAT not an Independent that just voted for democrats because Independents cannot win on their own merit....BUT he is currently NOT even a Democrat....

There in lies your rub....I am not stifling debate...He is just NOT a Democrat. PERIOD.

[rhett o rick]

72. You apparently support the oligarchy. Tell us how H. Clinton-Sachs isn't a tool of the Oligarchy.

None of those here that support Wall Street will speak up and explain how that will save the middle class. Or do you even want to save the middle class?

[Recursion]

100. Will Sanders be better at dealing with the existing oligarchy than someone else?

Seriously. Would he be better at making actual change happen than Clinton, Schweitzer, etc?

The fact that I agree with him on most issues doesn't matter. The fact that his positions are right doesn't matter. For that matter, as long as a President is to the left of a hypothetical median Congressman, being further to the left doesn't help anything.

His Congressional record is a long series of very excellent bills that go absolutely nowhere (the fact that a law is great doesn't matter if it isn't passed), punctuated by some puzzling votes on gun control (but I know Vermont is weird about that) and a pretty brilliant set of floor amendments, most of which also went nowhere. It's the same hesitancy I have about Kucinich: I don't need a President to be right and show everyone he's right; I need a President who can actually effect policy changes.

Now, his time as mayor of Burlington is probably instructive, but I haven't looked into it too deeply (I will if he ends up running). Still, simply being elected of a symbol of how pissed we are at investment banks won't actually make those banks change their behavior.

[rhett o rick]

110. I don't disagree with any of that. But I want to go out fighting. I am sure you know the

fable of the frog in the pot. If you turn the water up gradually the frog won't realize he is being boiled alive. That's what H. Clinton-Sachs wants to do. I want to jump out of the pot and take my chances.

I am also sure you are familiar with the recent Princeton study that says the 99% have little influence on the working of our govment. Why continue with that paradigm? Let's take a chance. Sen Sanders would have an impossible job if elected. Just look at what the Power That Be did to Pres Carter. But voting for H. Clinton-Sachs is giving in, it's sitting down and shutting up.

Some follow the bully, some ignore the bully, and some fight the bully. I got the crap beat out of me many times, but I never gave in to the bully.

[Recursion]

114. Except we're not "going out". We have to live with whoever winds up as President

This isn't some last stand in the End of Days. We have an economy and society in which large corporations are very very powerful, and elections are one of our chances to nudge that economy and society in a slightly different direction.

[rhett o rick]

115. "and elections are one of our chances to nudge that economy and society in a slightly different

direction." First according to the Princeton study, voting will not do any nudging. Secondly, nudging won't save us. Nudging is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Third, our only hope is to hit the Powers To Be so hard they back off and let us live.

It's not that the 1% (H. Clinton-Sachs) want us to die. They just don't care if we do."

[Recursion]

117. Sorry, nudging is what there is

Secondly, nudging won't save us.

Then we're doomed. Sell the farm and let the chickens go free.

If you really see no difference in the period of 2009-2011 and the period since then, I don't know why you're interested in politics to begin with.

[rhett o rick]

153. We no longer live in a democratic republic but an oligarchy that is still willing to keep some of

the trappings of a democracy, like voting.

The inequality gap is continuing to grow.

Nudging will not fix either of the above.

And TPTB/MIC/NSA/CIA are still manipulating us into wars in the ME that do nothing to protect us, do nothing to help the people of the region, but do manage to transfer trillions from the lower classes to the 1%.

[VanillaRhapsody]

281. Spoken like a true Independent....

Yeah we have heard this dog and pony show before "Both parties are the same" Right?

[rhett o rick]

289. The only place we hear that "both parties are the same" is from you.

I've never said that. But having an honest discussion isn't what you are here for, is it?

[VanillaRhapsody]

292. I am a Democrat....I pledge to vote for whomever wins the Democratic Primary

YOU will not make the same pledge.......

If I wanted to talk to Independents about the Democratic Party I could go to any number of sites WITHOUT the word "Democratic" in the title.....if you want to talk about Independents I suggest you honor the proprietors of this establishment's hard work and frequent the Disscussionist....



I come here to talk politics with DEMOCRATS!

(hint....I DON'T Believe both parties are the same...)

[rhett o rick]

296. I am a Democrat, but I believe in being honest and open-minded and won't vote

for anyone that I don't believe follows Democratic Principles. Anyone can label themselves a Democrat, and have, but apparently that's good enough for you. It is the easy way to support all Democrats and not worry what kind of person they are.

I bet you'd be cool with it if the Republican Party completely died and there were only Democrats on the ballot. That way you could exercise your vote with your eyes closed.

[VanillaRhapsody]

297. If you are not pledging to vote whom your fellow Democrats decide in the Democratic Primary

by default you are NOT a Democrat....you are an Independent....sorry but that is the truth. I don't care how you slice and dice it in YOUR mind....

See in a Democracy.....you don't ALWAYS get what you want.....but if you try some time....you get what you need!

[FlaGranny]

148. If Bernie runs

- great. I can't think of a better way to do it. Look what the far right has done with their outrageous/ridiculous candidates. They've completely screwed up Congress with a small minority. I'd love to see Bernie just get the word out. If he becomes a viable candidate he will. He stands for what the majority of the country stands for - they just don't know it - YET.

[rhett o rick]

154. The general public doesn't know how much trouble they are in. The Corp-Media propaganda and

distractions keep them happy. We can do nothing about the loss of our democracy or the ever widening inequality gap until the public wakes up. Sen Sanders is working to wake them up. H. Clinton-Sachs is trying to cajole the public into accepting the status quo.

[questionseverything]

176. you crack me up

wasn't bernie the one that teamed up with ron paul and got the fed audited? ya know where we found out that the fed gave away 13 trillion plus to other nations banks.....

[VanillaRhapsody]

282. can YOU link to that information?

or are we supposed to take your word for it?

[rhett o rick]

293. Do you mean this information?

The first top-to-bottom audit of the Federal Reserve uncovered eye-popping new details about how the U.S. provided a whopping $16 trillion in secret loans to bail out American and foreign banks and businesses during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. An amendment by Sen. Bernie Sanders to the Wall Street reform law passed one year ago this week directed the Government Accountability Office to conduct the study. "As a result of this audit, we now know that the Federal Reserve provided more than $16 trillion in total financial assistance to some of the largest financial institutions and corporations in the United States and throughout the world," said Sanders. "This is a clear case of socialism for the rich and rugged, you're-on-your-own individualism for everyone else."

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/the-fed-audit

[VanillaRhapsody]

294. OOOOOOHHHHH Now I get it.....the Federal Reserve shit is stuck in your craw.....

Yeah that is the BIGGEST PROBLEM we face....right.....

and risking all the progress we have made so far......on a longshot Non-Democrat like Bernie Sanders who you are betting (and praying to the FSM that he will) become a Democrat...and (then begging the FSM to make him win the Primary and then Begging FSM again to please let him beat Ted Cruz or Rand Paul or Jeb Bush)....Yeah that will fix everything!....Until it won't and then you throw Bernie under the bus.....because after all....."both parties are the same"......Lather rinse repeat!

[rhett o rick]

298. Your method of discussion is dishonest and tiresome. I am done with you.

[VanillaRhapsody]

299. YES! Tiiring because I speak the truth and you cannot get around THAT!

I was never "WITH" you to start with.....

[questionseverything]

334. ty for providing the link

i assumed this info would be common knowledge for a well informed group

[rhett o rick]

335. Sorry but I can't see the responses to this post. I must have put someone on ignore. nm

[Enthusiast]

133. PLUS ONE, a huge bunch!

[VanillaRhapsody]

266. No actually I support Democracy....and the Democratic Primary election....

You on the other hand.....

[Logical]

98. We get it, Hillary is the only hope we have! Blah, blah, blah! Nt

[Scootaloo]

102. Still terrified by progressive values, I see

[grahamhgreen]

122. Because we want our party back.

[corkhead]

174. You are almost too funny to put on ignore

almost.

You are too shrill for me to read anymore.

If it comes down to it, I am not planning to vote party over principle this time.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. I like how you think, and I hope this is just how it plays out.

Deep Thinkers, my ass.

[VanillaRhapsody]

5. Yeah....deep thinkers my ass too!

[Laelth]

7. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth

[cascadiance]

9. Idiots! He may GAIN anti-corporate right wingers too!

Many of them RAIL Obama for siding with the banksters! Bernie going after these banksters might be music to their ears if his message on these more universal issues that the corporatists may support (and flood the airwaves the CRAP that supposedly MOST of us support when we don't). I think both Warren and Bernie have the chance to get a lot of support from all sides of the aisle except from the VERY SMALL (in number, though powerful in cash) 1%.

Unless sometime before 2016, the congress passes some sort of unconstitutional BS that says the amount of cash we spend determines how many votes a candidate gets, we hopefully should be able to change course!

[VanillaRhapsody]

48. Oh you mean like the Libertarians?

sure...that'll happen!

NO Republican would EVER vote for a Socialist! EVER!!!!

[ReRe]

90. Absolutely, and positively, WRONG

I have a winger brother who just told me in the last week that he definitely would vote for Bernie if he ran. Said he didn't care WHAT party he ran in. And brother has been a Republican every day of his sage life.

[Autumn]

156. I posted what Bernie said about Veterans on my FB page and the republican relatives

and friends ate that up. Yes he appeals across the spectrum.

[ReRe]

215. Damn right! n/t

[Veilex]

89. Bernie does exceedingly well with Republicans and conservatives in his state...

They love him, in spite of ideological differences, because he takes care of the people in his state.

Though he is ostensibly an independent, Bernie Sanders is more popular than the president with his home-state Democratic primary voters. 90% approve and only 7% disapprove of his performance in the Senate.

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/bernie-sanders/

He gave one interview flirting with 2016, but that was enough to bounce Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., to the front of the 2016 pack in terms of online buzz, according to Monday's TrendPo ranking.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2013/12/02/numbers-monday-bernie-sanders-leapfrogs-to-top-of-2016-pack

And for extra reading:
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/11/bernie-sanders-2016-election-100020.html

Bernie has a real chance at the Presidency. More importantly, the down-to-earth Senator, thinks he has a good chance... otherwise he wouldn't be running.

Its very encouraging!

[Mnpaul]

203. I was just looking at the 2012 map

Every district is that yellow color. Not one blue or red district on the map.
http://elections.nbcnews.com/ns/politics/2012/vermont/senate/#.VBonK5uClPE

[Veilex]

229. Its rather remarkable.

[Stardust]

231. I have Vermont-envy. nt

[noiretextatique]

10. center right is a turd way republicon scam

to further lower expectations of government. i support senator sanders bid 100%. time to open the debate and raise expectations of what government can and should do for its citizens...the 99%, not the 1%.

[VanillaRhapsody]

50. and Bernie Sanders as a Democrat is an Independents scam!

[F4lconF16]

58. Do you listen to yourself?

I mean, clearly Bernie Sanders is plotting a takedown of the democratic party by being more liberal and democratic than most Democrats, and obviously this whole thing is masterminded by the Independents...but really. Come on, now.

[VanillaRhapsody]

220. Yes I do....do you?

I have been asking myself that for days....well do ya?

[noiretextatique]

221. absolutely absurd

isn't it?

[rhett o rick]

70. Sen Sanders will have a hard time fighting The Powers That Be's candidate but

be damned if we aren't going to fight with him. Those of you that support Wall Street and the Oligarchy might be surprised. I hope the hell you are.

[noiretextatique]

222. i hope so too. i have been waiting since 1980

for a real liberal democratic candidate. sanders will definitely get my vote.

[noiretextatique]

219. that's silly...and childish

if he runs as a democrat, he is a democrat. would you have a problem voting for him?

[Enthusiast]

134. PLUS ONE, a huge bunch!

[Scuba]

11. Bingo!

[jwirr]

12. Tell them to quit having a fit. He will not run as a 3rd party candidate. He is not a spoiler. He

wants to win as bad as we do and he will not do anything to let the Rs win.

[MohRokTah]

14. America *thinks* it is center right.

In politics perception outweighs reality.

[Rex]

15. Deep thinkers?

Is that what we are calling them now? K.

[hobbit709]

18. That's because they're deep in their own caca de vaca.

[stevenleser]

34. vaca = cow. You mean toro. nt

[Rex]

47. Maybe they meant cow paddy.

Una caca de vaca.

[leftstreet]

17. DURec

[morningfog]

19. He's only named post offices!!!111!1!

BLAARFGGGHHHH.

[Stardust]

233. You really made me laugh--thank you so much! nt

[FlatStanley]

20. Voting for the lesser of two is what makes us effectively a center right nation.

We win the battles while we lose the war.

[840high]

25. ....

[FlatStanley]

113. ?

[Jackpine Radical]

205. !

[99Forever]

21. Well ssid. K&R

[Johonny]

22. I think Bernie's problem is the media certainly will go after his "socialist" tag but will it stick?

RW leaning voters don't understand what socialism is and will gladly chant keep that socialist's hands off my social security. I have no doubt the media will do nothing to help correct the impression. Indeed they hound Obama as a socialist with little evidence to support it.

The counter is that Bernie's message from his great filibuster speech on saving American capitalism to his very sound positions on Obamacare and Obama's military action in the Middle East would seem to indicate he should have no problem moving Democratic voters.

Much like swiftboats for truth was complete bullshit, so won't all the socialist stuff they would say about Bernie. I note though that it did not prevent the media from running with a bullshit story for months. They tried the socialist thing on Obama, they tried the terrorist thing on Obama, they tried the African thing on Obama, they tried the Muslim thing on Obama.... nothing hung on him and the voting public told the media to fuck off so clearly for some candidates you aren't wrong.

I can honestly say I don't know if Bernie is a Teflon candidate or a magnet. Running him through a primary would likely tell us. I have no problem with him running. If the people that say he can't shake this issue are right then we'll know rather quickly with no harm done to the GE.

[tazkcmo]

204. Exactly.

And it's worth the effort. Mom always told me stuff that's hard to do is usually worth doing.

[Uncle Joe]

23. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Jackpine Radical.

[cstanleytech]

26. Other than nominating scotus positions though

(which I agree we need more liberal justices to bring back balance to the court) does it really even matter who the hell wins the whitehouse at this point as long as the republicans control congress? I mean come on if we dont regain that we are going to be deeply boned no matter if a democrat like bernie or even warren was president.

[ZombieHorde]

38. A Democratic President will probably

mean very little will be done, as opposed to many, many very bad things. Though I wouldn't be surprised if either candidate sent us to war somewhere, and/or perpetuated current wars.

[Recursion]

112. Yeah. There's no Presidential Gravitational Field that moves Congress to the left

I want someone to the left of the Congressional median and capable of skillful administration.

[Cali_Democrat]

129. On the big issues, it really doesn't matter.

There will be no single payer, no gun control, no paycheck fairness, no unemployment extension as long as GOPers control the House.

Of course there are many other issues, but those are the ones off the top of my head.

You make an excellent point based on reality. I'm surprised more people haven't replied to your post.

[indivisibleman]

27. I like what Bernie says and represents.

He seems to me to be much more of a progressive than Hillary. Same goes for Warren. I have grown cold over time in regard to Hillary and don't know if she is the best candidate going forward. She does have the credentials though.
Wouldn't it be funny if Hillary gets edged out again and this time by Bernie Sanders.

[Bryce Butler]

190. I hope it does happen

[Demeter]

29. We have Deep Thinkers? Where Are They? In a Sub-Basement at the Bottom of a Mine?

You're just pulling my leg, Jack. There's no such thing in the Democratic Party.

The minute we get one, s/he gets thrown under the bus.

[Cleita]

33. I think this can be traced back to the Clinton camp. eom

[stevenleser]

35. The way to determine that is via a primary. I am in favor of Bernie joining the Democratic Primary

for several reasons. Deciding this question once and for all is one of them.

[The Magistrate]

39. Hear Hear, Sir!

The more exposure Sen. Sanders gets, the better.

His presence in the primary will, at the very least, pull the discussion of issues, particularly economic issues, back towards the left, the direction it [i[badly needs to go.

And I am quite certain that, the more the 'independents' and 'undecideds' ( those who in less charitable moments I describe as 'the mush in the middle' ) hear Sen. Sanders, the more they will find he speaks for them and to them.

[smokey nj]

43. I'll do you one better, Sir.

I have a sister who was brainwashed by Rush Limbaugh in the 90s. She told me she would vote for Bernie. She respects him because he's honest and doesn't talk down to her. I don't think she's the only one.

[ReRe]

104. I've got a brother...

... just like your sister! Bernie is a miracle before our eyes. Die-hard Republicans are finally beginning to wake up. I never thought I'd see the day my brother would vote anything but the Republican ticket.

[Recursion]

119. Oh, I don't know: Bradley pushed Gore to the center by my reading

A moderate Democratic candidate doesn't think "there's a challenger on my left; I need to go face him on his own turf"; he thinks "there's a challenger on my left; I need to bank more support on the party's right to make up for that".

[The Magistrate]

150. The Difference, Sir, Is That Sen. Sanders Has Something To Say, And A Bit Of The 'X' Factor As Well

Bradley was a cipher, colorless and uninspiring, and with no particular positions, certainly nothing that comes to mind after a passage of years. He did nothing more than serve as a vehicle, and a very poor one, for the usual crop of discontent to be found wherever Democrats are gathered. He did not have much effect at all.

Sen. Sanders says things most people in this country actually agree with, and says them in a palatable and engaging manner. His presence in the primary campaign will bring these things into wider discussion, and the fact of their popularity will do the rest. I do not expect he would win, but certainly do think he could shift the center a bit, and in the right direction.

[WillyT]

40. K & R !!!

[zeemike]

41. That is what the deep thinkers get paid the big bucks for.

To create perceptions and manufacture consensus...and the money will be flowing to Hillary, so they are in that steam.

[Phlem]

52. Fuck the deep thinkers, they don't have to struggle like the rest of us.

The deep thinkers on the right gave us great's like Bush, and Bush Senior. How bad could Bernie get, oops , a faux pas of fairness and and help for the middle class. A spill of corporate blood and citizen power.

Well fuck me.

[brooklynite]

56. No, it's based on the notion that America is a CENTRIST country...

Bottom line is that, given that nearly hal of the voters went for Romney, how does a proclaimed socialist build a narional electorate.

[stevenleser]

63. He doesn't. But a primary will make that pretty clear.

Bernie has no chance with the right 1/3rd of the Democratic Party and his best look on the other 2/3rds is a 50-50 split with Hillary so his best showing nationally vs her would be about 67% Hillary and 33% Bernie. That's his highest potential showing if he does everything right IMHO. My guess is it would go 75%-25%

[JEB]

59. Bernie has always won his elections by making sense

and explaining his reasoning so people of all political backgrounds can understand the wisdom in his position. He sticks to his well thought out principles and wins votes by honest persuasion, not by triangulation and trying to give everything to everybody. Honest, thoughtful and committed to the hard working citizens.

[ReRe]

105. It's called...

Common Sense

[JEB]

107. And its all too uncommon in DC these days.

[ReRe]

108. Isn't it great...

... when common sense breaks through mass chaos?

[JEB]

111. I think the people are longing for that.

[onecaliberal]

74. "Deep Thinkers"

You mean corporate puppets who want to continue to lie and keep you voting for people who do not represent you, but rather the 1%.
Our planet is dying, our water is poison, our air is dirty, we are starving children, withholding jobs from people who want to work all so we can line the pockets of people who already have an obscene amount of money.
Fuck all those asshats attacking Senator Sanders.

[Cleita]

77. Yeah, Bernie is a disaster to their plans.

And I think that's his intent.

[Hippo_Tron]

78. I suspect Bernie doesn't run as an independent. And if he does, he drops out before the election

He has a working relationship with the Democratic Party both nationally and in Vermont. If he was actually a Naderite who believed that there's no difference between the two parties, he'd use his independent status in the Senate to be a power broker rather than remain consistently in the Democratic caucus.

Bernie's a pragmatist with years of politics under his belt and he believes that there are substantive differences between what happens when Democrats are in power and when Republicans are in power. He also believes that the left needs to organize and build a movement that challenges the status quo. It's not actually that difficult to hold both of these ideas in one's head simultaneously, though you'd never guess it from reading DU.

[KamaAina]

80. Are you sure you don't mean the Party's Deep Throats?

Think Watergate, not Lovelace. Get your minds out of the gutter, people!

[BlueCaliDem]

91. ...

[rhett o rick]

81. The big thinkers are absolutely correct. The Democratic Party Machine has decided that

they want to embrace the conservatives. Obama used the Left to get elected in 2008 but couldn't wait (can you spell Rick Warren) to insult the Left and woo the Conservatives. You see it's smarter to woo the conservative votes and take votes away from the clowns the R Party runs. The Democratic Machine can risk insulting the Left, which pleases the conservatives, because they know that a good share of the Left will succumb to the lesser of evils manipulation. If Sen Sanders runs he may stir up the Left to fight for the principles of the Democratic Party.

It is critical for the Left to stand firm that they will not support a Wall Street puppet in the general. If the Conservatives in the Democratic Party want to run H. Clinton-Sachs, they will own her. They better hope to get Republican votes because they will not get the support of the Left. And no Ralph Nader to blame.

[cascadiance]

171. YEP! His chief of staff has called us on the left "F-ING RETARDED!" and smiled doing it!

... and I say we smile back and say F YOU to the likes of that cabinet chief and get someone like Bernie in who won't touch a bastard like Rahm Emanuel on his staff!

[rhett o rick]

191. Yes I hear you. I think for Obama to get to the presidency he had to make aliances with

the likes of Rahmbo and Penny Pritzker plus others.

[Warren DeMontague]

82. Are these the same Deep Thinkers that thought the IWR vote was a good idea?

The Bob Shrum crowd who think the way to win the White House is with mealy, empty "values voter" platitudes about how Jesus was the bestest philosiphizer ever?

The same Deep Thinkers that tell Debbie Wasserman-Schultz that the American Public DEMANDS tougher punishments for cancer patients who smoke medical marijuana?

The beltway goobers have no idea where the country is at.

[Jackpine Radical]

164. Yeah. Them. Them's the ones.

[Joe Turner]

85. F*uck the party deep thinkers

They are actually shallow thinkers that go to great lengths in rationalizing their bought and paid for opinions. Maybe it makes them feel better as they assist their corporate owners in strip mining away what is left of the wealth of this country.

[pocoloco]

86. Thr parties deep thinkers

have their head buried deeply up their ass!

[love_katz]

95. Love you, Jackpine.

Keep telling it like it is, in spite of all the flak.

[Recursion]

96. Ah, yes, the silent majority myth. Conservative activists fall for this too

The majority of the population is pro-pot legalization, pro-gun control, pro-single payer, pro-choice (including a majority of Catholic women), pro-environmental

Doesn't matter at all, because at crunch time they don't vote for Presidential candidates who support these things. They've proven this time and time again.

You could well imagine activating a 10% voting surge on the left in response to a Bernie, accompanied by a 5% defection on the part of a few DINOs who can't handle the fact that Bernie is a *gasp* socialist!

Hell, while we're at it, let's imagine a 20% voting surge from this alleged left. You're still asking the party to stick its neck out for an alleged block of voters that haven't as yet shown any sign of existing.

Conservative activists fall for this fantasy, too, and they are wrong, too.

[rhett o rick]

116. I think you said it all. The Conservative Democratic Party Machine (H. Clinton-Sachs)

doesn't give a crap about the Left. So if that's true, then you conservatives can take your H. Clinton/Goldman-Sachs and good luck. But let me remind you that you will own it, you will own the outcome, you won't have Ralph Nader to blame. The blame is on you.

Let me warn those that think that if they are nice to the Power That Be, that they might be saved from the wrath, they might get a trickle or two, but you are fools. Wall Street won't look kindly on you nor will the environment.

[grahamhgreen]

123. OMG. I heard all this when we beat you with Barak.

[Recursion]

124. Huh? I was an Obama supporter pretty early in the primaries

And he ran to Hillary's right, as kept being pointed out here.

[grahamhgreen]

166. Not true at all, he ran to her left.

[Recursion]

167. He ran on a health care plan without a mandate

That's the only substantive difference that comes to mind.

[grahamhgreen]

169. And with a public option. Also anti-war. And anti-costly trade:

http://www.ohiodailyblog.com/content/obama-mailer-slams-clinton-nafta.

Anti Wall Street, etc..

Left of Clinton on everything.... Til he got into Office and became, in My view,just another neocon shill cutting food stamps and promoting perpetual war.

[treestar]

146. +1

I heard right wingers say McCain and Romney lost because they were too liberal.

[Romulox]

159. LOL. I guess it's pointless to even *suggest* anything but the Status Quo, eh Recursion?

[Z_California]

308. Deja Vu

Didn't we have this same conversation 7 years ago? Didn't voters prove time and time again that they would only elect a WHITE President?

[C Moon]

97. I'm hoping he runs in the primiary and if he doesn't receive enough popularity,

drops out for the general election. Perhaps forcing the candidates to face some of the issues he's bringing in.

[Recursion]

103. I'm skeptical of that. Primary challenges make Democrats move to the center

Al Gore didn't think "I can beat Bradley at his own game"; he thought "shit, I've got an attack on my left so I need to shore up the center".

Bell curves. They're irritating, but they're everywhere.

[C Moon]

126. +1

[LondonReign2]

184. "Primary challenges make Democrats move to the center"

Shouldn't you a big supporter of Bernie getting in the race then?

[Recursion]

185. No. I want the farthest left electable candidate (nt)

[ReRe]

106. K&R

Thanks for this OP, Jackpine. Enjoyed the hell out of it.

[Zorra]

109. Rec #100 nt

[rpannier]

121. Thank God you weren't around in 1960 when Kennedy was running

We might have nominated a Catholic and there was no way the country would ever elect a Catholic as president

Oh wait...

[Recursion]

125. JFK the tax-cutting hawk?

I've still never quite understood people's reactions to JFK, though that was a long time before I was born.

[rpannier]

128. It's not a reaction to JFK

It's a reaction to conventional wisdom that says X cannot get elected because he/she is unelectable
One of the major knocks against him being the nominee was he's Catholic. Another was, he was too young.
My post has nothing to do with his policies

on edit: I'd never have voted for him in the primaries.
He's not in my Top Ten presidents list either

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

127. The notion among the Corportions' deep thinkers is that Hillary can be bought.

And, has already made the down payments with her entertainment gigs with Goldman Sachs.

[Enthusiast]

135. PLUS ONE, a huge bunch!

[Enthusiast]

131. Kicked and recommended!

Go, Bernie!

[Tarheel_Dem]

136. Bernie's too principled to leave his party of one to take filthy "third way" dollars, right?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

137. The beltway insiders think Hawaii is not part of the United States, and it's "too exotic".

I saw Andrea Mitchell (Mrs. Da Span) say that Hawaii was too foreign, because President Obama was vacationing there.

Hello??? Does she not know that Alaska and Hawaii have been states for over fifty years? Something like since 1959.



Those people are in that famous bubble that Bill Maher had on Real Time that had Republicans in it. Some of the Democrats are that way too.

[Major Hogwash]

138. " . . . care about basic quality-of-live issues . . "

This is what Democrats should be pounding like a drum right now, today -- in order to win the mid-term elections that will take place in just 48 days.

[pansypoo53219]

139. the gnewz media only accepts vichy democrats. wall street MUST BE APPEASED.

they still cling to reagan's balls.

[NealK]

140. K&R

[Strat54]

143. STOP with the "Inevi-Hillary" already!!!

You are all buying into the same corporate sponsored, Clinton media machine as last time. Hillary is only inevitable because her media machine says she's inevitable.

LOOK!!! You gotta have this confidence...
We (Democrats) are going to win in 2016. The clown car in Republistan is warming up again. These idiots can't help themselves. They will run a slew of loose canons against 1 or 2 Wall St. Suck-ups.

You know who is going to end up being their candidate??? I'll bet it's Mitt Romney again!! The GOP establishment will try to derail the Clown Car early and they will wind up with the only non-cowboy they can muster.

We are GOING to win in 2016. We are a different electorate than we were in 2004. We are certainly a different electorate than 1992. We are GOING to win.

Now...If we are going to win, I'd much rather do it with a progressive/liberal than a corporate DLC Neo-Con.

This is no longer about which candidate will win it for us...
This is about, "Which candidate do we want representing us when we win?"

I know it's hard to get used to being on the winning side. But pull up your big boy/girl pants!! We know that the majority of Americans support Democratic issues and positions. They're just waiting for a legit banner carrier.

My G-d!!!!
You DO realize that we elected a Black man with a Muslim sounding last name as president, right??? WE elected a Black man as president!!! WE accomplished what we were told was impossible!!!

Why in the world are we weaseling around and allowing HRC to scare us into thinking that she is the only viable candidate???

Get used to winning Dems!!! Get used to it and accept the responsibility of being the only broad based coalition party there is.

Let's get this one right again!!

I sat there weeping with pride in Jan. 2009. I am STILL proud!! Obama was not the savior of the world, but he represented everything we worked for for many long year's. I want to feel that pride again in Jan. 2017.

We can do this!!! Stop acting like we don't know how to win!!

[treestar]

145. The center is by definition where the mass of voters are going to be

The center and to the right and left of it.

That is the way the current voters are. If they were farther left, the center would become people whose positions are farther left originally, and vice versa.

The issues polls don't matter if people don't vote for candidates on those issues. One issue polls don't show that the people on the left side of that issue aren't going to vote for right wingers, due to other issues.

[PatrickforO]

151. Somehow, we on the left

allowed the Republicans to make the American people have a gasping, shuddering reaction to socialism, thinking that it is horrible and un-American. This is the way they defeat populists. When someone comes along and talks about fair wages, good working conditions, pensions, healthcare, affordable college - you know, things that make sense and would actually help us, the right wing screams 'socialism!'

I say Go Bernie, because I honestly think that Hillary is too establishment, and at the least needs pressure from the left.

[Romulox]

158. The "centrists" sound scared. nt

[Autumn]

160. If we had Deep Thinkers in our Democratic party we wouldn't be in the mess we are in,

I don't expect them to start now. Excellent rant.

[malthaussen]

161. "If the Democrats have any moxie at all"

You were saying?

-- Mal

[marym625]

162. Amen!

[Ed Suspicious]

163. They worry about money to fund a campaign. You want to see grassroots support

and the power of small donation? Run Bernie. His candidacy will rouse American. Bernie will restore faith in our party if he runs as dem. He could run as republican for all I care as long as he stays true to his principled positions. Bernie will have my full support whatever he decides.

[on point]

168. Sounds like DLC getting worried about their game plan. Good!

[DFW]

172. Why would Bernie be a disaster?

Besides the fact that he is not a member of the party to begin with, I mean?

There's nothing wrong with a party having a conscience whispering in its ear. The Republicans have none, and look what's become of them.

[libodem]

181. .

[img][/img]

[Progressive dog]

182. I could count the number of Democratic

Presidential Primaries that Bernie has run in on a donkey's claws. If Bernie decides to enter Democratic primaries, Democrats can decide whether to vote for him. Believe it or not, most of us are capable of making up our own minds based on actual choices available to us.
That means that we are not going to support the possible candidacy of an untested candidate.

[djean111]

269. That means that we are not going to support the possible candidacy of an untested candidate.

Like, say, Obama?

Bernie has won a hell of a lot more elections than Obama did.

And last time Hillary ran, in the presidential primaries, she LOST.

I cannot believe the Deep Thinkers thought this was going to be a cakewalk. Shows their contempt, IMO.

[Progressive dog]

286. No it doesn't,

and what do you care if the"deep thinkers" believe it will be a cake walk for a particular candidate. If Bernie runs in a Democratic primary, he will be seriously considered. I won't even go to Bernie running as an Independent. He won't. He is not a Nader.

[pa28]

336. And I can count the number of second effort Democratic nominees on a Donkey's claw.

I did want to thank you for the wonderful idiom though. I've never heard that one.

[avaistheone1]

186. Thank you Jackpine radical.

K&R

[jonjensen]

189. voting majority counts not people who don't vote

In off year elections voters are center right. In presidential elections voters are center which is where the democratic party is. In 2012 g.o.p. got 1 million less votes for congress but thanks to g.o.p. gerrymandering kept control though they would be vulnerable to democrat wave election if that occurred. If you don't vote or can't vote what difference does your opinion make in a pole" Only likely voters opinion matters sorry!

[Plucketeer]

192. The party HAS deep thinkers??? nt

[Utopian Leftist]

193. Well said!

The public is just beginning to wake up. Prior to Occupy Wall Street, NO average person had even heard of income inequality. Due to the work of a handful of politicians (Bernie, Liz Warren, Grayson, etc.), almost all of America's most successful comedians (Jon Stewart, Colbert, Maher, Letterman, Whoopi, etc.), and maybe a handful of people who can actually still be called "Journalists" (among whom really only Bill Moyers springs to my mind), the public is slowly realizing what's going on, and by implication, what kind of peaceful life the American CONS have been depriving the entire world of. The media is not helping the situation at all, but the public is also beginning to realize that they can't rely on the BOOB TUBE to educate themselves, and are increasingly seeking their information elsewhere.

We are getting ready to witness a sea-change in public opinion, in favor of leftist positions. As the OP stated, public opinion is already largely on our side, at least on the issues mentioned. And like I said, they are just now waking up. But truth, once it starts to spread, can spread like wildfire. Whether or not it spreads far enough to prevent disaster in the 2014 elections, the word will be out in force by 2016. That's why I believe Warren or Sanders could be our next President. All Dorothy had to do was pull back that curtain, and she brought down the Wizard of Oz. We can pull back the curtain on the One-Percenters! We must. It's the only way to keep the public moving forward. And it's the only way to save the world from the absolute destruction that one single more Republican Presidential administration would generate.

[whereisjustice]

196. Would these be the deep thinkers who gave us NSA spying, torture and wall street crooks?

I thought so.

[Jackpine Radical]

198. Here's one of them now,

saluting the Left:

[AtomicKitten]

197. Bernie would champion the 99%.

[Scuba]

199. Kick.

[MFrohike]

200. Why not?

I'd rather get more viewpoints in the race than continually limit it to the same old failures.

Oh hell, he's not an Ivy Leaguer either? Man, count that as a huge strike in his favor. If the Ivy Leagues are so great at creating leaders, why do their graduates continually run the world into the ground?

[3rdwaydem]

202. I wouldn't vote for him...

If he were the nominee, I wouldn't vote for anyone in the 2016 Presidential election.
Fortunately, we don't have to worry about Sanders getting the nomination because that, in my opinion, will go to Hillary - as it should.

[bunnies]

207. says the guy in "financial services"

lol. no wonder.

[adirondacker]

223. I thought they were all on their new hangout Netropolitan.

Skinner should charge a 3rd way rate of $9,000.00


www.Netropolitan.info

[BeyondGeography]

301. You're not a deep thinker if you believe Bernie Sanders is a threat to anyone

[kentuck]

303. A candidate like Bernie would be good for the Party....

...that has gone too far to the right, especially on economic issues.

It would be a good start at righting the course.