(CNN) Pennsylvania police shooter on the lam has an AK 47. That's just great.

[applegrove]

[alcibiades_mystery]

1. It's just like a pea shooter, or a rubber band slingshot! The gunners told me so!

Describe in detail the difference between an AK-47 and a five-year olds first target shooting rifle! Manufacturer specs, from memory, and right now. You can't, can you? That's because there is no difference!

Gun grabber!

[applegrove]

3. That was such a great impression of NRA active responce talking points that you

almost had me fooled.

[Tom Ripley]

43. Welcome to DU, Mr LaPierre!

[femmocrat]

2. Do you have a link?

Thanks. I have been following this story on the local news. I hope he's at the bottom of that pond where they found his vehicle.

[applegrove]

4. I should have said it was on CNN.

[femmocrat]

6. Thank you. nt

[malaise]

38. Here

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/suspect-in-deadly-penn-trooper-ambush-described-as-very-angry-survivalist/

[dballance]

5. Well, it is his right.

The 2nd Amendment says so.

[Duckhunter935]

7. I would assume the civilian version of that type

Semi-automatic version. A real AK is very expensive, tens of thousands of dollars.

Hope they find him soon.

[Rex]

9. LOL!

Try 600 dollars directly from Russia. Nice try.

[Duckhunter935]

13. got a link?

a fully automatic AK-47

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=439149787

[Hoyt]

12. Semi-autos are quite lethal, and some gunners convert them.

You gunners try to convince us that semi-autos can't be used for assaults.

Unless we start restricting these things, we will see more of this type domestic terrorism. Remember the Bundy Ranch Militias drawing down on federal agents with their semi-autos, the border Klan patrolling the border with their semi-autos, open carry yahoos in restaurants and stores, etc.

These gunz embolden domestic terrorists.

[Duckhunter935]

15. I would be more worried about

the 308 rifle with a scope. Bolt actions can have much longer range and can kill with one shot and the guy will disappear to kill again. My guess is that is the weapon used to kill the trooper, not the AK variant.

[Hoyt]

18. So why is he carrying the AK?

[Duckhunter935]

19. Who knows

Sounds like he has issues and has stolen the weapons from his father.

[Go Vols]

37. a .223 would would worry me more

same principle tho

[Sparhawk60]

62. Correct

The AK-47 may look scary, but I would rather face a guy with an AK than a sniper rifle. The 308 with scope is by far the most dangerous weapon of the two, and the worst part is that a "sniper rifle" is just a deer hunting rifle.

I bet the police would get a lot of calls if some one was driving around town with an AK-47 visable in a gun rack, yet people would not think twice about seeing one or more sniper rifles in a gun rack. He's just a hunter.



Sparhawk

[Rex]

17. Dad was military brass...could very well be the real deal.

A real AK...great, just what we needed.

[Duckhunter935]

21. Hope he had all of the required paperwork

and background checks if it was. Federal laws were broken if he did not and he will have some serious jail time.

[tularetom]

26. Carrying an automatic weapon without background checks is the least of his worries at this point

And you can bet your ass he'll have some serious jail time, he shot and killed a state trooper for crissakes.

[alphafemale]

45. "Hope he had all of the required paperwork...."

He is accused of murdering a state trooper and wounding another.

Not having the paperwork is the very least of the reasons he is facing serious jail time.

[Duckhunter935]

46. Talking about the father who owned the weapons the son stole

from him.

[alphafemale]

93. He's cooperating. He'll be fine. nt

[Threedifferentones]

65. The killer stole his weapons, so I'm pretty sure that post was in reference to their legal owner.

[Rex]

8. Why do you have him for his freedumbs?

Car, false equivalency, something something. 2nd amendment! Something!

[pinboy3niner]

10. He's believed to have both the AK and a .308 caliber rifle with a scope

He's a skilled shooter who "doesn't miss," his father, a retired U.S. Army Major, told police. The father also told police that he was missing two weapons, a .308 rifle with a scope and an AK-47, according to court documents released today.

Suspect Eric Matthew Frein, 31, from Canadensis, Pa., practices survivalism -- the ability to survive without the help of government or society, and often storing food and guns, Pennsylvania police said today. Police who searched his home found a copy of a book entitled Sniper Training and Employment, according to the court documents.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/suspect-pennsylvania-cop-shooting-sharpshooting-survivalist/story?id=25545808

[OffWithTheirHeads]

11. I'm not an expert on these things but I think it unlikely.

As I understand it, an AK 47 is a fully automatic firearm and as such, highly regulated by the ATF. Obtaining one would require background checks on steroids and lots of money. I hear the term AK47 thrown around all the tims on forums like these and on the media but I doubt their validity. These are the Kalashnikov's you commonly see in the ISL videos. I suppose it might be possible to obtain one in this country but it would be very hard.. Why go to all that trouble when you can co down to Wall mart in Tucson and buy any number of variations of the AR15 and take it home at point of purchase?

[Rex]

14. The dad is former military, could very well be likely a real AK.

[Duckhunter935]

16. And if he had it illegally

and had not had the background checks and paid the fees, he is in a lot of trouble. You can not legally bring them back as a war trophy anymore like WWII.

[Hoyt]

20. I think that is the least of his problems. And, don't forget, you can go

to YouTube for instructions to convert them to full auto, if you need something even more lethal.

[Duckhunter935]

22. Not as easy as you think

you have to get the timing perfect or they will just jam and fail.

[Hoyt]

24. Sounds like you have tried, or at least investigated, it. It's done

quite often. Besides, in the hands of a Yahoo gun nut, semi-autos can kill a bunch of folks. Remember Sandy Hook, Aurora, etc. Most racist gun nuts have a few of them.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

27. Wow! you sound angry. I get the impression from your post that

being knowledgble about firearms is unaceptable. You state that conversions from semi auto to full auto are done "quite often". Can you source that? I don't mean to be disrespectful but you seem to equate all gun owners with "racist gun nuts". I'm reminded of the pointlesness of discussing anything with my teabag relatives. If you would actully like to discuss this issue, I'm willing but I don't have the time to talk to my dining room table.

[friendly_iconoclast]

50. "Can you source that?" Hoyt doesn't *do* sources-he's strictly an 'ipse dixit' sorta guy...

[OffWithTheirHeads]

51. Yeah, I kinda got that when he never replied.

[Duckhunter935]

40. No

I just know how weapons work and that manufacturers have made physical changes to make conversions much more difficult. I do not need to fire full auto. very inaccurate, wastes ammo, and is hard on the weapon not to mention highly illegal.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

25. People who don't own or work on firearms have no idea the precision required.

I recreate early American long guns as hobby. Even with those, the amount of precision to get them to work properly is extremely time consuming. I can't even imagine converting a contemporary seer from semi to full auto. But I guess anybody with a U Tube account can do it.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

23. That's my take also. Easier to get a legal suppressor than an AK

[IdaBriggs]

42. Why would the Dad lie? nt

[Matrosov]

69. "AK47" = semi-automatic Kalashnikov variant

Real AK47s are fully automatic and have never been sold here. It might be possible to get a pre-1986 version, but that would require permission from the BATF, paying a $200 fee, and jumping through other legal hoops that can take a few months. The weapon itself would also be very expensive, because access to real pre-1986 AK47s would be extremely limited.

The "AK47s" sold in the United States are semi-automatic Kalashnikov variants, typically imported as parts kits from Eastern European countries and then assembled into full rifles by US companies. They need to have a certain number of American-made parts anyhow.

I suppose you could take one and try to convert it to be fully-automatic, like with the North Hollywood shootouts, but I don't really see the appeal for criminals. Fully-automatic weapons are more difficult to control and burn through ammunition extremely fast, and someone with a strong trigger finger can still achieve a fast enough rate of fire with a semi-automatic rifle.

[Go Vols]

28. IBL

[AnalystInParadise]

29. So

Has a copy of the most widely produced Semi Automatic weapon in the world? Am I supposed to be scared or concerned? Now if he had a M-249 or a 240B I would be concerned. Semi automatic rifles are not exactly something a person should be afraid of.

[applegrove]

30. See post #1 and #3.

[AnalystInParadise]

31. Those posts don't really help me

I am still unsure why I should be afraid. Semi automatic weapons are legal and in most cases in the hands of law abiding citizens. As in all areas of life a select few will criminalize the item they possess. But how does this story have any bearing on 99.9% of the population. Are you advocating that there is danger in a criminal owning a piece of technology that can be used to kill? Because if we are going to do that, we have a lot of technology to take away from criminals.

[applegrove]

32. I was hoping for a bit of self knowledge on your part. You are NRA right?

Cause they come online and obfuscate. And try and steal the discussion till it is destroyed. Please, please, please let me just sit with the worry that tons of police and FBI will be trekking through the woods with a guy with a AK 47 sitting in wait. And I want to share that feeling with others...unmolested by you or the NRA. So we can be human and empathize. And count our lucky stars we have people whose job it is to keep us safe. And what we can do to keep them safe. Would that be okay with you?

[AnalystInParadise]

33. No

Why would I belong to NRA? I don't own guns, nor do I feel the need to. But I have been around guns my whole life, growing up in the country, serving in the military, etc. I am a lot less scared of a citizen owning a gun, than an alcoholic owning a car.

[AnalystInParadise]

34. Welcome to a message board

People that don't agree with you are free to contradict your posts.

[malaise]

39. Well said

[Duckhunter935]

41. If you do not want an opposing view allowed

Kindly go here.....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1172
DU and even the RKBA gun group allows differing views and dialog. This group is set up as a "safe haven" that will make you feel more comfortable and no differing views are allowed to "steal" the discussion. I will point out the group is very, very slow because the echo chamber has very few participants and blocked anyone the host feels like.

[LanternWaste]

70. It is indeed rhetorically convenient to paint someone with an opposing view as someone...

It is indeed rhetorically convenient to paint someone with an opposing view as someone who wants to deny opposing views-- as it certainly allows that individual to feel they've made a clever contribution rather than the petulant retort.

[Duckhunter935]

72. Since

The charge was made that the poster being responded to was

"NRA"

and

"Cause they come online and obfuscate. And try and steal the discussion till it is destroyed."

would tend to say to me that this person does not want any differing viewpoints to be available.

[Eleanors38]

82. Kind of like #32?

[friendly_iconoclast]

53. Talk about straight from the antigun messaging guide...

Please, please, please let me just sit with the worry that tons of police and FBI will be trekking through the woods with a guy with a AK 47 sitting in wait. And I want to share that feeling with others...unmolested by you or the NRA. So we can be human and empathize.

Preventing Gun Violence Through Effective Messaging

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/748675/gun-violencemessaging-guide-pdf-1.pdf

#1: ALWAYS FOCUS ON EMOTIONAL AND VALUE-DRIVEN
ARGUMENTS ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE, NOT THE POLITICAL
FOOD FIGHT IN WASHINGTON OR WONKY STATISTICS.
It’s critical that you ground your messaging around gun violence prevention by making
that emotional connection.
Don’t skip past emotional arguments and lapse into a passionless public
policy voice. And don’t make the gun violence debate seem as if it is a political
“food fight” between two interest groups...

...#2: TELL STORIES WITH IMAGES AND FEELINGS.
Our first task is to draw a vivid portrait and make an emotional connection. We should
rely on emotionally powerful language, feelings and images to bring home the terrible impact of gun violence. Compelling facts should be used to back up that emotional narrative, not as a substitute for it...

Can we call them 'talking points' yet?

[applegrove]

54. value driven, stories with images and feelings, sounds like being

a human being to me. I guess that is the enemy of the NRA...being human.

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. "Even with the base, we need to always connect our comments to the NRA’s role...

...in exposing people to needless violence"

Why did you immediately assume that those who ask awkward questions or
disagree with you are NRA? Instead of addressing A.I.P.'s questions, you immediately
went for the response recommended in "Preventing Gun Violence Through Effective Messaging"

Again, why *should* we be afraid of the AK-47? The described "rifle with a scope"
is the more dangerous weapon in the hands of a guy like Frein.

I feel bad for the cops that were shot, but the OP and some of the responses are looking more and more like an attempt to gin up a moral panic about semiautomatic rifles rather than
a discussion of the very real dangers of guns in the wrong hands

[applegrove]

58. Cause the NRA talking points are all the same.

And they show up even if you post in GD like I am now. I did not predict that. But the NRA algorhythms must take in a wide scope and not just the gungeon portion of forums on the internet. What I did predict, as did poster #1 in this thread did, was that if the NRA was about, the very real discussion of safety and guns would quickly turn into one where only ‘people‘ with expert knowledge on using guns are allowed to discuss them. Like the GOP men don‘t discuss rights regarding vaginas - they obviously do. My vast experience of charletans and psychopaths tells me that they never want to go mano a mano. They always want some advantage set up in the assumptions so that they win at all cost. Same with the NRA. You don‘t want a real fight on the issues because then you could lose the discussion. You fight fake. Over and over, again and again. Your only purpose is to stop human beings being human and discussing the condition of their lives. Sorry if you don‘t like my criticism of your actions. But I am human and can fight little or big picture. Send this to your bosses. See if they can come up with NRA talking points that don‘t involve linking to a phony list of traits universal to real human beings, but which the NRA does not want to deal with. Try fighting fake with me one more time. See if you get anywhere.

[aikoaiko]

63. You post a snarky, sarcastic OP about a criminal with a gun....

...and you didn't expect a partisan discussion to ensue? Really?

You've been around this block way too many times to feign that level of naivety.

He's a criminal with 2 guns. Criminals often abuse civil liberties. That's the nature of criminality.

[applegrove]

67. Would you have me leave out the sarcasm smilie? Guy hunted by

police has AK 47. Great.

[friendly_iconoclast]

68. "AK47/assault weapon" is certain posters' version of "terrah,Terrah,TERRAH!!!"...

...to go along with the ever-popular "If you're not with us, you're with the terrorists NRA"

[friendly_iconoclast]

66. Your "very real discussion of safety and guns" is more like moral panic mongering

When asked some rather relevant questions, you accuse posters of being NRA and
tell us how you want to share your feelings with others.

For that matter, what makes you believe anyone is not being 'allowed' to discuss guns here?
If you mean "being allowed to discuss guns without *those* people saying something",
no- there's a safe haven group for that:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1262

For some reason, it sees little traffic...


FYI, I've got quite a long history of dissing the NRA at DU

[Major Nikon]

55. Results...

On Wed Sep 17, 2014, 09:24 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Talk about straight from the antigun messaging guide...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5553100

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This post has nothing to do with the one he's responding to, but it does speak volumes about where he and his gun buddies are coming from, and what they themselves do in any gun discussion. They are the ones who use talking points and NRA crap to harass DUers who dare to talk about guns in GD. I'm sick and tired of seeing them get away with it.



You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Sep 17, 2014, 09:42 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is a reasonable comment in the context of the post it replies to. I suggest responding to it in-thread if you disagree with it, or using Ignore (or Trash Thread) if you don't wish to see it.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This post is overly dramatic and sarcastic, but I think we as adults can handle it.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

[friendly_iconoclast]

56. Thank you to those jurors who saw through that attempt to stifle dissent...

..., and I would remind the alerter that there is a safe haven group available
to them where they will never have to put up with any disturbing words about guns:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1262

In the meantime, I would remind all that if something is posted in GD, you don't
get to choose the responses it will get...

[Duckhunter935]

74. Amazing

some get so upset they alert on something like that. I agree GD and RKBA allows differing viewpoints to be posted. There is a safe haven group and maybe some should limit reading posts in that group and they would be much happier as dissent is not allowed.

[IdaBriggs]

44. Both. He is a killer. He has weapons. He doesn't need to go to the grocery store.

He is VERY GOOD with his distant killing weapons of choice, and has practiced evading people "hunting" him, so he has a good chance of extending a killing spree beyond a normal temporary stupid/drunk person.

If you live in the area, yes, you should be concerned.

[cwydro]

48. Agreed.

If I lived in the area, I would be concerned.

Hell, I DON'T live in the area and I'm concerned. Remember the DC shooter? And I don't think he shot any cops.

Anyone who will shoot a cop will shoot anyone.

[newcriminal]

49. I live in Pike County, and I'm not concerned.

[cwydro]

47. I'm afraid of any gun in the wrong hands.

And I own a gun.

[Skittles]

59. perhaps next time you see idiots claiming to not understand what GUN HUMPER means

you could join in

[Logical]

52. Wow, you know very little about guns. nt

[Go Vols]

36. kick

[Kaleva]

60. One can easily and legally attach a slidefire stock to a semi-auto AK-47

They go for about $200 at this site:

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-accessories/ssak-47-bump-fire-stock-slide-fire-solutions-right-detail.html?Itemid=0

[hack89]

61. And turn your weapon into an inaccurate toy

Have you ever wondered why no one ever actual appears to use such things while commiting crimes? Or do you have links.

Btw - they should be illegal.

[Kaleva]

71. Just as accurate as an AK-47 firing full auto

Your comment probably explains why weapons capable of firing full auto are so heavily regulated. It helps prevent most citizens from wasting their money on buying inaccurate toys.

But I agree with you that such things as the slide stock ought to be made illegal.

[Straw Man]

76. Only under optimum conditions.

Just as accurate as an AK-47 firing full auto

Slide-fire stocks are finicky. They have to be fired from the shoulder and have to be held with the right amount of force in order to function properly. Not a problem when having fun at the range, but problematic for anyone with the intention of actually using the rifle as a weapon.

It is highly unlikely that this dirtbag has a full-auto AK. Furthermore, it's essentially irrelevant; the police that are seeking him have full-auto M4s. In any direct encounter, he is outnumbered and outgunned. As has been mentioned, his .308 is far more of a threat to the police. He may be intending to set up sniper ambushes for his pursuers.

I live in New York State, not far from the PA border and adjacent to a large wilderness area. Tonight when I was out in the yard, I heard a small aircraft running along the ridge -- most likely a drone. This guy's days are numbered.

[Kaleva]

77. Your comments

"Slide-fire stocks are finicky..."

I have never read that slide stocks themselves are finicky but I have read where people have had feed problems caused either by the ammo used or the magazine.

"They have to be fired from the shoulder..."

For reasonable accuracy, this would be true for any long gun.

"... have to be held with the right amount of force in order to function properly."

A novice can fire a gun equipped with a slide stock with a little instruction and along with pretty much else, practice can make the operation second nature.


"It is highly unlikely that this dirtbag has a full-auto AK. "

I agree. Full-auto AK-47s are rare in this country and are very expensive. I've seen them listed for $16k-$20k. People say they are everywehre and readily available but they are actually talking about semi-auto AKs which cannot, because of design changes mandated by law, be easily converted to full auto.

"Furthermore, it's essentially irrelevant.."

I agree. The suspect could be armed to the teeth but he's going to end up in prison or dead soon.

[Straw Man]

87. Clarification.

"They have to be fired from the shoulder..."

For reasonable accuracy, this would be true for any long gun.

Slide-fire stocks will not function as full-auto unless they are fired from the shoulder. That was my point. This severely limits them as combat weapons, which need to function in all modes from all firing positions.

[Kaleva]

89. Which firing positions are you talking about where one doesn't place the stock to the shoulder?

[Straw Man]

90. Stock under the arm or rifle held away from the body like a submachine gun.

It wouldn't function as full-auto in those positions with a slide-stock.

[Kaleva]

91. In your first post to me, you implied the importance of accuracy

The two positions you just mentioned are, I believe, best suited for suppression or 'spray and pray' fire. A rifle equipped with a slide stock can give one effective and reasonably accurate burst fire capability from the prone, sitting, kneeling or standing positions.

[Straw Man]

92. Again, slide-fires are only accurate under optimum conditions.

We're going around in circles, I think.

The two positions you just mentioned are, I believe, best suited for suppression or 'spray and pray' fire. A rifle equipped with a slide stock can give one effective and reasonably accurate burst fire capability from the prone, sitting, kneeling or standing positions.

On the battlefield, what is full-auto for? Answer: suppressive fire. It should be deliverable from any position, since the shooter may be shooting from barely-adequate cover. Slide-fire weapons can emulate full-auto, but they can't equal them.

I can see no practical advantage to a slide-fire rifle over a semi-auto in a combat situation. It's a range toy.

[ileus]

64. Probably just a junky imported clone...

Hopefully he's already worm food, and won't have a chance to use his commie block trash on a useful citizen.

[Duckhunter935]

75. I think you are right nt

[Glassunion]

73. No worries, the police have tanks.

We can all sleep soundly.

[Orrex]

78. Your ignorance is showing

Police tanks are only for use against black people.

Duh.

[Glassunion]

80. I beg to differ

This was from my town about a year or so ago... They brought out these toys for an "active shooter".



The shooter...
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1097665!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/fbcop-web.jpg

[Orrex]

81. No shit? Damn.

Nothing says To Serve & Protect like a Bradley parked in your intersection.

[Glassunion]

84. It was a strange story.

They were there to protect and serve us from someone who is there to protect and serve us...

Of course since those who protect and serve us arrested the guy who was there to protect and serve us, those folks who protect and serve us made sure that he can no longer protect and serve us.

They ended up driving through a bunch of back yards with that APC.




Luckily the bad guy was a police officer so his marksmanship skills were quite lacking... No one was killed, and only one was injured.
http://www.northjersey.com/polopoly_fs/1.492357.1396506554!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_300/bulletholes-062212-cj-tif.jpg

[oneshooter]

85. Not a tank. No turret with a large bore main gun.

Looks more like a M113. Rode in those thirty five years ago.

[Glassunion]

88. Tank sounds cooler than APC...

Was reaching for intentional hyperbole.

[KG]

79. accept no substitutes

[Eleanors38]

83. Ah! AK-47: Just mention where you saw it & get a free pass for gunz in GD!

[Duckhunter935]

94. looks like he kept the more

dangerous weapon and discarded the scary weapon.

Police said this afternoon they have recovered an AK-47-style gun and ammunition that belongs to Eric Frein, the man suspected of killing one state trooper and injuring another outside the Blooming Grove barracks.

http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/police-find-gun-ammo-they-say-belonged-to-frein-1.1757541

For once the press actually was correct in the weapon description.

[Arugula Latte]

86. Yay America! I'm really enjoying our freedom, aren't you guys?!