"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

[Cyrano]

Last edited Wed Sep 17, 2014, 05:40 PM - Edit history (2)

That's a quote from John Kerry, a decorated Vietnam War vet regarding the "mistake" of the Vietnam War.

Why is he on TV asking us to go after ISIS? Who would know better about mistakes than John Kerry. I think he's an outstanding man. Why is he peddling this? Does he really believe it? This is a guy who was twice wounded in Vietnam. Does he really, really, belileve what he's saying?

I've always admired Kerry. WTF is he doing??

[truedelphi]

1. Kerry is just another puppet doing the bidding of the Puppet Masters.

Why he cares to spend his life this way, I do not know. His wife's fortune is vast enough that he can't need the money.

He may be likeable, but he sold all of us within 24 hours of Andy Card announcing that George W once again won the White House in 2004.

Anyway, thanks for asking the question. It truly sickens me that so many here view ISIS as yet another "Worser than Hitler" reason to fight yet another "war that must be fought."

[Cyrano]

9. Please, please, don't call Kerry "another puppet."

No veteran, especially one who fought in that fucked up Vietnam War, and was wounded, twice, should ever be called a puppet.

I really don't know why Kerry is backing this miserable ISIS thing. But please, respect the man. After all this is the guy who spoke the words in the OP. He's a man of conscience.

I have no idea why he's speaking the words he's speaking today.

It's just possible that I'm repeating his words from a world that no longer exits. I hope I'm wrong. Please, please, please, let me be wrong.






a

[truedelphi]

33. I am sorry but in 2004 he and he alone left the voters in Ohio out to dry.

And it was Ralph friggin' Nader and David friggin' Cobb who raised the monies - at least a hundred thousand dollars worth - to help those same voters get some voting recounts done. (Not that third party people with integrity would ever get any respect on this particualr forum.)

Kerry not only made a totally deplorable decision to agree with James Carvile that there were not enough questionable and uncounted votes in Ohio to make a difference, when there actually were, but in agreeing with James Carville, he broke his promise that he would not give up the election to the Republicans until the last vote was counted. When Andy Card announced that George W Bush had won his second term, sometime around 2Am EST, there were still people standing in the rain in Ohio trying to vote! Not only that but there were close to a two and a half hundred thousand ballots that were missing, uncounted or fraudulently handled in Ohio.

In other words, if you didn't like George W Bush circa Nov 2004 to January 2009, then you have Kerry to blame.

And if Kerry doesn't like being called a puppet, then he should not be one!

[mylye2222]

64. I know Im reapeating myself....

But, please two points:


1: The Kerry team investigated Ohio for a recount, but the proofs of an eventual fraud had already been destoyed by Sec. Blackwell.

2: At the time Kerry conceded, he didn't have any sustainable material to call for a public action. Plus, there were the Gore precedent, with didnt succeded.

[mylye2222]

47. Thanks a lot Cyrano.

We can disagree with his stance on isssues. But he deserves respect. Period
Calling him a pippet exposes only unjustified rancor to him.

[bigwillq]

16. They're all just puppets.

And we're the pawns.


'Merica.

[mylye2222]

35. I thinks he is personnaly holding hks nose at his own war calling.

I believe he just personnaly wishes he has to give a speech he hoped he woulnd have too. Yes he has a conscience. But he also know that in certains case we must act. And ISIS is waayyyy far more scary than AlQuaeda. They rape, cute heads and put their exactions online.
Kerrys beautiful inner sould was able to be observed not so long ago when he lashed out in a Faux Noises studio BLAMING GAZA SLAUGHTER.

NO. He still sometimes takes risks. No one can call him a puppet. HRC has far less conscience than John Kerry. Thats for sure folks.

[Warpy]

2. ISIS is SCARY. They kill people and chop their heads off on videos!

That's why, I guess. They're responding to American outrage that isn't really there because most of us are sick and tired of going into the Middle East and squandering taxes there while our own country is falling apart under our feet--and tires.

Somebody needs to shake these clowns up, all of them, both parties, and let them know we just don't have a dog in this fight. Rich Saudis and other local Sunni princes made ISIS. It's up to them to try to moderate them.

Unfortunately, they're all in that Washington DC bubble and will never hear us. We've become utterly dispensable to them.

[Katashi_itto]

14. They have Terrorist Babies too!!!!

[calimary]

19. I heard an interesting discussion about this recently - about showing the true cost of war.

War "coverage" has been so antisepticized, so tidied-up, that nobody understands the true nature of the beast that is war, and what it does to the human body, to limbs and organs, skin and bone, to combatants and non-combatants alike. Nobody gets it. And we're not supposed to! Otherwise, nobody'd want to go over there to face those horrors for real.

PLEASE DON'T FORGET the Herculean efforts bush/cheney went to - to muzzle news coverage of Iraq. Absolutely NO coffins were EVER to be shown or photographed, absolutely NO coverage was permitted of the return of our fallen troops to Dover AFB - the first place on American soil most of the dead make their return. People were FIRED for taking photographs and publishing them or leaking them online. FIRED. You could lose your job if you tried to get the word out. Your boss was thoroughly cowed under the national security goons and would let you go in a heartbeat if you didn't conform.

That's the one thing that really touched me about Barack Obama as President. One of the FIRST things he did, when he was newly installed as our Commander-in-Chief, was to get his ass straight over to Dover AFB late one night, to greet the flag-draped coffins of soldiers who'd been sacrificed to that meat-grinder over there. He granted permission if anyone wanted to cover it, and nothing was hidden - even in the dark of night. And it was very simple. Very little fanfare. Just the CiC standing there on the tarmac to pay respects to the returning war dead. Every one of them. We NEVER, EVER saw bush/cheney do that. We weren't supposed to know about icky messy things like dead soldiers' bodies, or throat-gripping lines of flag-draped coffins - that kept coming and kept coming month-after-month. Outta sight, outta mind. BASTARDS.

I know one thing about the GOP. They LEARN from history. They fully and completely got it about not showing the costs of war to the masses - because the masses will be horrified and stop supporting the war-making. It was well-known back a few years - that when CBS Evening News anchor Walter Cronkite, widely hailed as "the most trusted man in America", had finally seen enough and turned against the Vietnam War, the war was lost. Because the people saw it at their dinner tables every evening, watching the network newscast and the correspondents out in the rice paddies and death and the carnage and the destruction, and the mournful elder anchor back home in New York, who spoke for them all - and turned against the war. It was key to America's changing view of Vietnam and what triggered the anti-war movement's call to action and helped grow its momentum. And it prompted then-President Johnson to concede - "if I've lost Cronkite, I've lost the country."

Cronkite never shied away from telling hard truths. Recall his half-hour “Report From Vietnam” on Feb. 27, 1968, in which he declared the Vietnam War a “stalemate.” It was a verdict the veteran war correspondent didn’t relish delivering, but Cronkite, who had recently returned from reporting on the Tet offensive, now believed that the war was unwinnable and indefensible. He felt “conned” by Lyndon Johnson, Brinkley writes, and “sickened” that his network had swallowed the Pentagon’s spin.

“The aftershock of Cronkite’s reports was seismic,” Brinkley adds. President Johnson reportedly said, “If I’ve lost Cronkite, I’ve lost the country.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/books/review/cronkite-a-biography-by-douglas-brinkley.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

So... taking careful note of this event, that turned the public decisively against Vietnam, the GOP knew that as long as the public got to SEE stuff, it'd know too much and would be harder to control or manipulate. Therefore, their takeaway was - DON'T SHOW THAT SHIT!!! Paint a happy picture! Tell 'em to Go Shopping! No muss, no fuss! War is cool! War is great! War is a cakewalk! Won't even cost you any money! War makes you BRAVE and BAD-ASS! USA!-USA!-USA! Nothing to see here! All is well!

That's why maybe we should see a whole bunch more of this nitty-gritty, not ONLY the beheadings, but everything our poor troops will face over there. Their heads aren't the only body parts at risk. Just ask Tammy Duckworth. Ask Max Cleland. Ask our own Defense Secretary, Chuck Hagel, who even now is still walking around with shrapnel in his body from when HE was in Vietnam. Can we get realistic about war? It's NOT for the faint-hearted. Frankly, in my opinion, it's not for ANYBODY.

[Warpy]

20. Agreed, having fire and blood and body counts in their living rooms every night

did give people some perspective during Vietnam, although they still whitewashed what it was doing to the treasury.

Wars since then have been heavily sanitized. Now they don't even have to bother, so many "journalists" keeping their manicures intact as they wait for press releases to come through.

[Cyrano]

24. Great history/life lesson, calmary.

I don't know how many DUers will read your post. But it's a great lesson -- not only a history lesson -- but a lesson about what's taking place today and has always taken place when power, arrogance, and/or some guy in the White House is concerned about some elusive thing called "legacy."

C'mon, Obama. You're better than this.

[tazkcmo]

28. DING DING DING

Give that person a kewpie doll! Watch the pregame show for a football game and substitute the football words for war words. It'll sound just like the talking heads on the pre war shows.

My kids got to sit and watch that crap in the months before Oil War I with the knowledge that their father would more than likely have to go. Disgusting and I'll go to my grave with the anger over this.

[babylonsister]

3. He is an outstanding man, and a smart one.

I imagine he's 'peddling' it because he does believe it. I also imagine there is a lot going on we know nothing about. I will defer to President Obama and SoS Kerry, though I don't like the idea of getting involved yet again over there. I suspect they're not crazy about the idea either.

[mylye2222]

61. Of course he is.

Problem is some people keep an wholy unjustified rancor at him.

[TwilightGardener]

4. We aren't going to let Iraq collapse, and get chased out of our embassy

and oil interests by extremists, where we lost 4000 troops and spent a trillion dollars. Whether you like it or not, it's just not going to happen--not politically, not in terms of national security, not in terms of America's world image and status. Obama is not going to allow it to happen. That's just reality. Edit to add: anyone punching Kerry over any of this needs to realize this simple truth.

[magical thyme]

5. because nobody is going to be the last man to die for the mistake?

With our new state of perpetual war, there will alway be another life to sacrifice to the MIC.

[n2doc]

6. Exactly. Never ending. n/t

[Enthusiast]

7. Our admiration for John Kerry was misplaced.

I now suspect he was working for the CIA when he pretended to throw his medals over the White House fence.

[mylye2222]

36. Your despicable statement is totally misplaced.

[Enthusiast]

40. I got it right didn't I?

We know the CIA had operatives in the anti-war movement during Vietnam just as they did with Occupy.

[mylye2222]

41. No. you got it wrong.

Kerry was harassed and attacked by the Nixonites during all his activist era. They followed and tapped him. His 1972 Congress bid was sabotaged by those assholes. No. You are wrong.

[Enthusiast]

44. Those attacks just added to his camouflage.

More smoke screen, just like Clinton and....

[mylye2222]

45. Please. stop that ugly stance.

You are exposing yourself in a very nasty way.

[Enthusiast]

49. My record shows I was a strong supporter of Kerry in 2004

I was wrong then. I am growing tired if betting on the wrong horse. Kerry didn't even challenge election discrepancies in Ohio.

[mylye2222]

50. He did indeed.

But he worked out of limelights.
And it unsuceeded...mainly because of the sobataging jobs from DLCers . And all thise who at the time didnt wished a Kerry win for it would at the time stop HRC to run in 2008.

[FiveGoodMen]

8. How do you ask someone to be the NEXT to die for a mistake?

[NightWatcher]

18. That's what I was thinking, as they try to come up with a reason we'll believe to start back up

If you've got to come up with reasons why we need to invade, guess what, we don't need to invade.

Japan bombed Pearl Harbor...thus started our involvement in the WW2. This time, they are trying to sell us reasons as though it were undercoating on a used car.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. I don't know if this situation is really comprable to Vietnam.

For a number of reasons.

[Cyrano]

11. I'm not saying that those in the future will

view this current ISIS thing as Vietnam.

What I am saying is that Kerry was a man who "got it" before most did. You think it would be possible that such a man would be cautious about his words on today's "war." I guess I'm disappointed to some degree.

Please, stop. Think. Very few agreed with Kerry when he spoke those words about the Vietnam War. He was so, so far ahead of his time.

Maybe you're right. Maybe ISIS is the worst, worst thing ever.

And just maybe, maybe we should remember what John Kerry said about Vietnam before any more Americans, or any one else, died. Maybe, no one should be the last to die for a mistake -- or die for a war of the emotions of the moment.

[Warren DeMontague]

31. A couple points, here. One, Kerry said those words on April 22, 1971.

"Very few agreed with Kerry when he spoke those words about the Vietnam War. He was so, so far ahead of his time." -- that's simply not true. Opposition to the Vietnam war was pretty well established, by April of '71, and had been around for a long time. Walter Cronkite came out with his famous editorial (the one that prompted LBJ to say "if I've lost Cronkite, I've lost the war) in Feb of '68- a full 3 years before Kerry said those words. Cronkite was as much a bellweather of mainstream America, as ever existed.

Also, Kerry voted for the IWR. That was one of the big selling points, IIRC, behind his nomination in 2004, odd as such a thing may sound today. The conventional wisdom poop-bahs assured everyone we needed a "strong on terror" nominee, terror apparently meaning going into Iraq for the guy who didn't attack us on 9-11. I think that was a mistake, we would have done better in '04 with a nominee able to take a clear and consistent moral position against the Iraq war at the time.

But to imagine that Kerry from 1971 up to current day has never taken any arguably "hawkish" positions, is simply false.

Maybe you're right. Maybe ISIS is the worst, worst thing ever. ....Which would be an interesting discussion to have, whether or not I was "right" about that, if that remotely resembled anything I've ever said.

[Enthusiast]

43. It might be worse. Certainly both were unjustified.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

12. Fucked up, ain't it? nt

[Aerows]

26. To quote Huey Freeman:

[LittleBlue]

13. That guy died a long time ago.

All that's left is the hair

[Cyrano]

17. Damn, maybe he did. And maybe

we can convice him to be the man he once was

John: If you're reading this, age changes all. But perhaps, just perhaps, you still are filled with the greatness you once spoke of and inspired us with.

If you're reading this, rediscover youself. Be who you once were. And can still be.

[mylye2222]

37. That young JK never died. He is just ....

Forced to sleep. In a powerfull position you have to be cautious.

[Glimmer of Hope]

22. After the chemical attack in Syria he was unbearable. I gave up on him.

[karynnj]

70. And didn't bother to notice that he was instrumental in getting rid of the Syrian chemical weapons

To this day, the media and right argue that Obama backed down after saying he would attack if Syria crossed the red line of using chemical weapons. Somehow they entirely miss the point that Obama and Kerry repeatedly spoke of a targeted attack that would raise the cost for Syria of using CW in the future - hopefully to the point that they would not be used again. Instead, Syria gave up all the CW and the US destroyed them -- and thus there was no attack.

To me, this meant:

1) K and O were honest in saying the goal was to deter use of CW - NOTHING would insure that more than Syria giving them up.

2) The right and much of the media chose to believe that Obama was really going for regime change - even though he and Kerry denied it. Thus, in their minds, Obama backed down.


Here on DU, I see many that rather give Obama credit, give credit to Putin. Note that before there was a threat of US force, there was no hint of Russia agreeing to pressure Syria on this -- although both Obama and Kerry had brought it up.

The net result of that entire action was that tons of dangerous chemical weapons are not in Syria -- for ISIL to get -- and two people who deserve credit are Obama and Kerry.

[mylye2222]

71. Of course.

Kerry was just thretening of a possible read line crossing. But prior to any attack they both favored the diplomatic solution .

[hughee99]

15. As SoS, perhaps he'll find an answer for that question.

How will he ask someone to do this?

[Adam051188]

21. i'm not sure i believe in "mistakes" here

it's just an action or decision that has become unpopular with the general public due to poor public relations.

almost all our actions and decisions as a country have the same motivation which is private profit for those well connected, usually at the expense of the public coffers and blood.

[GeorgeGist]

32. Iraq 2.0 was a monstrous mistake.

If you don't know that, you don't belong on DU.

[Adam051188]

34. thanks.

yes dick cheney enriched his firm and himself by mistake. that makes sense. you're a genius.

[They_Live]

23. power corrupts

absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[KG]

25. John Kerry LOL n/t

[tazkcmo]

27. Same way

You ask the first guy.

[Cyrano]

29. It's not always that simple.

The first guy is under the tremendous pressure of nationalism/patriotism. The last guy, more often than not, "gets it." And just possibly his/her last thought might be, "Damn, this really sucks a lot." Or perhaps, they were just thinking of a loved one they would never see again. Damned if I know.

[tazkcmo]

30. You still

ask the same way. Your response addresses how the service member responds.

[KG]

38. I guess he's finding out

[madokie]

39. I'll not question John Kerry

I will question those who question him without knowing all the facts and you do not know all the facts, you are not in the line of command, you do not know what John Kerry knows.

Pffft

Nothing personal but enough of this kind of armchair quarterbacking bullshit.

[mylye2222]

42. K&R. for u.

Kerry had since 2004 always been one of the easy Dems scapegoats. ...Some use his defeat endlessly ...... Sad but truth.

Anyway its strange how some people goes that deep after kerry when his name comes within the word Iraq when not so much people seems to bow at the truth warhawk...who is no one than Mrs Clinton.

[YvonneCa]

46. Agreed. Foreign Policy in Iraq...

... From 2005:

http://www.c-span.org/video/?189592-1/us-foreign-policy

[mylye2222]

57. Thanks, YvonneCa,

for bringag back some sense in this board!

[YvonneCa]

58. It is really difficult to see Dems who fight for the same values consistently...

...over YEARS maligned by newcomers who haven't been paying attention. IMO that's how we ended up with GWB in 2000. That election wouldn't have even been close if American citizenry had been paying attention.

That video is 9 years ago. JK has been trying to get this right for years. Anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to do their homework.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

48. Possibly because ISIS is not Vietnam.

The implied line of logic here - sending troops to Vietnam was bad, therefore supporting people fighting ISIS is bad - would only work if all wars and military conflicts were the same. And they aren't.

I'm not convinced that opposing ISIS is as good use of US money. But it's got nothing whatsoever in common with Vietnam.

[Orsino]

53. Nothing in common with Vietnam...

...except Americans killing and dying versus an enemy that doesn't threaten us, politicians building careers on it, and contractors getting richer off it. Quite a lot in common, really.

But if an ally of ours really needed our assistance, or if a huge humanitarian crisis loomed, it could still be worth our participation.

Let's just not kid ourselves that it's radically different from Vietnam.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

54. Both those criteria have been met, and significant numbers of Americans dying is unlikely

Iraq is an ally of the US, in at least one sense.

ISIS do genuinely present a massive looming humanitarian crisis.

And air strikes are unlikely to lead to many more Americans dying.

The only strong argument against American involvement in attacking ISIS - although I think possibly one strong enough to carry the day - is the relatively high financial cost vs relatively low practical benefit; I'm not an expert but it's not obvious to me that air strikes will be enough to stop the above-mentioned looming humanitarian catastrophe; America might be able to save more lives per dollar by e.g. distributing mosquito nets, or fighting Boko Haram, or something.

[Orsino]

56. One is a "significant" number. n/t

[Reter]

51. Never trust Skull and Bones

He's not just for the system. He IS the system.

[YvonneCa]

59. Lost? n/t

[mylye2222]

60. No! Only conspirationist I think.

Add this a little ignorance of true fact.

It is not S andB witch defines Kerry. It always had been and will always be his war experience. Period

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

52. It's a lot easier than asking thiousands of men after him to die for a mistake.

Go ahead and ask people on the street the question - if your death could save thousands of others lives, would you do it?

Many people would probably be glad to be the death that put an end to slaughter.

[wildbilln864]

55. it was no mistake! n/t

[karynnj]

62. He was wounded three times and yes, he does believe in what he is doing

You might want to watch the UN session he chaired yesterday to understand what he and other countries are trying to do.

What Obama is trying to do here is best explained by Obama's speech at West Point this May. This is very consistent with the type of things Kerry spoke of in 2004 -- rather than attacking and occupying countries - like George Bush did.

What seems clear from Kerry comments and speeches is that the US is pulling together the Sunni countries to try to first contain and then eliminate as a major threat ISIS. Now, some of the pieces are military, but others are more political/democratic.

Some of the things have included getting these countries to help dry up funds going to ISIS - first ending their funding, funding of people in their country and help in ending smuggling oil to pay for it. Another thing that he has done is to have these leaders ask their religious leaders to speak against joining ISIS. A top SA Iman has declared a fatwa against being in ISIS.

In addition, there are comments of deconflicting with Syria and Iran. Politically you can;t get the Sunni countries in if you say you are cooperating or coordinating with these two - and they are necessary. What is clear is that Kerry has been willing to take the hits from the RW and AIPAC by keeping the door open to Iran.

It may be that this will not work. It is a huge, very complicated mess. However if there is anyone I trust to do the best he can it is Kerry.

[mylye2222]

63. K&R !!!!!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. He sold out. Long ago.

See his IWR (I wuz fooled) vote for precedent.

[mylye2222]

66. Always funny to see how people can

jumps so quickly at Kerry/IWR mistakes, wich he recognized in speeches so many times, but when the same question goes with HRC, ...well, almost no attacks!

Oh, yes I forgot the simple answer is......THAT DAMN POPULARITY FACTOR!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. I've bashed both, Hillary even more, for backing Bush's wars.

[mylye2222]

68. I didnt targeted you especially.

No offence intention from me.
Just a observation of what I read globally here when it comes to IWR.

[dilby]

69. Tell them they are not dying for a mistake.

Instead wrap it with a humanitarian bow and tell them it's for the kids. When in reality it's to protect the oil interests of their wealthy political friends. Ah well it's not our elected officials kids dying, just some other poor saps.