We aren't Anti-Sanders, we aren't even Pro-Hillary, we are simply not ready to jump on any bandwagon

[LynneSin]

I say 'We' because I see others who have pretty much said the same sentiment that they are not ready to pick their choice for president and I respect that. But perhaps I'm writing this post for just me - I respect that.

It's 2014, I still don't know who I am supporting.

You folks ok with that?

I know I have a tough time supporting Sanders but mainly because of his age and because he might split the party and allow the GOP to win. I'd be more incline to support someone like Elizabeth Warren who seems like a younger version of Sanders who happens to have the D next to her name.

But in a nutshell, no one has won my hand yet in this race so stop yelling at me for not jumping on any bandwagon.

[msanthrope]

1. How about we jump on the GOTV 2014 bandwagon? nt

[merrily]

3. Yep.

[LynneSin]

4. I'm all for that - talk to all the other folks

Just putting in my 2 cents

[merrily]

5. I hope each of us has been doing that, in our way. And perhaps more importantly, also in IRL.

[riqster]

37. Been on that one since the 80's.

[Voice for Peace]

38. Everybody's got a seat on that wagon.. hope we all have a smooth ride.

I think the GOTV will be successful this year. I see messages
all over facebook, every day. People are reminding friends,
telling them why it matters. More people this time realize
that it matters. Social media is one of the greatest inventions
of all time. Second only to hot air balloons.

[ecstatic]

62. +1000. nt

[merrily]

2. With Sanders, the idea is just to get him into the Dem primary, so

the bit about splitting the Dem vote is totally a red herring.

https://www.credomobilize.com/petitions/encourage-senator-bernie-sanders-to-run-for-president-in-2016-as-a-democrat

So, I suspect anyone who is yelling at you.

To the contrary, the only possible way Sanders can possibly split the Dem vote is if he does NOT enter the Dem primary. So, every Dem who does not want him to split the Dem should be lining up to sign the petition at the above link. Otherwise, I call bs on their concerns about splitting the Dem vote.

I have no clue why anyone who is sincere objects to having anyone enter the Dem primary. I had more than one poster claim the more in the primary, the merrier, then, in the next breath, tell me they would not sign the petition because they were supporting Hillary. Sorry, friends, both of those things cannot possibly be true.

I don't know who I will support in the primary yet, either, so I certainly don't mind that you don't know. However, I sure as hell know I want a primary, not an anointing or a coronation.

[LynneSin]

13. I always assumed there would be a primary - I love a good democratic primary

[merrily]

15. Me, too! I really don't understand the resistance to having Sanders or

anyone else in the Dem primary. It's not only about winning or losing the primary. It's about the nation as a whole hearing a variety of views from us.

Yet, if you post about encouraging Sander to run in the Dem primary people automatically start posting about Nader and/or splitting the vote or how Sanders allegedly can't win the general. I don't know if he can win the primary. If he does, though, it will be for damn good reason, including that a majority of Dems in 50 states think he can win the general after all.

I simply don't get it.

[pnwmom]

18. You're wrong. It is very possible to support an open primary and also not want to give

specific support to a certain potential candidate.

If Bernie Sanders decides to run in the primary and if he wins, so be it. But nobody unenthusiastic about him is obligated to encourage him do that.

[cascadiance]

22. Just DON'T support "top two" "open primary" props. NO on prop 90 here in Oregon in 2014!...

They try to appeal to frustrated independents, but they instead just empower big money more to control messaging on who gets elected by shutting down political party mechanisms for citizens nominating who they want representing them.

It hasn't worked in California and Washington, and will screw other states that are being paid by big money to have props to change our election laws.

[pnwmom]

25. I strongly agree. I wish that hadn't happened here in WA. n/t

[merrily]

24. You're very wrong for completely changing what I posted.

"the more (in the primary) the merrier" does not connote or mean the same as "I support an open primary (in theory)." It connotes that I want as many people in the primary as possible. I am focused on quantity, not selectivity.

Similarly, "I don't want Bernie in the primary because I support Hillary" doesn't mean "I don't want Bernie in the primary because I am unenthusiastic about Bernie."

By re-wording completely, you changed the connotation and meaning completely.

Why on earth would you do that?

I posted what posters posted to me almost verbatim.

[pnwmom]

27. Merrily, you have forgotten that I was a poster said, "the more, the merrier."

So I certainly know what I meant by that. I did mean: "I support an open primary."

I did not mean: I will encourage any specific candidate to enter it, including your fav, Bernie Sanders.

I'm not encouraging Hillary or anyone else, for that matter. But I don't oppose her either, and I don't appreciate people who spread lies about her. She very well could end up being our nominee.

[merrily]

35. You cannot speak for all, though. And you are wrong again.

Last edited Wed Mar 14, 2018, 01:22 AM - Edit history (1)

You have not been, by far, the only one who has posted that to me.


Did you also post that you did not want Sanders in the primary because you support Hillary?

Because you completely reworded that part, too.

In any event, as I said, you are by far not the one one. Come to think of it, a lot of people using very similar wording should have given me pause. Hmmmm

including your fav, Bernie Sanders.

Sorry, pwnmom, you've leapt to a wrong conclusion. If you read my posts this thread and my post very early this am in the Warren forum--as I actually worded them, of course--you would see that I have not made my mind, that I truly do want a lot of people in the primary. I know you read my posts because you reply to them and I've been posting that same thing for weeks now., just as I've been posting for weeks now including on this thread. So, what is the point of your untrue comment about my "fav?"

I'm not encouraging Hillary, for that matter.

Hmm.

For some reason that reminds me of a poster who has called me everything but a child of God over Hillary, including, snort, a sexist. But told me I had misread him: his candidate was actually Bernie Sanders. He just didn't like what I said about Hillary. (What I said about Hillary actually corrected his lie about how quickly she had retracted her airport lie--and I had not brought up the airport story to begin with.


Fast forward a couple three weeks. I still have not seen one post of his supporting Sanders or any other candidate but Hillary. However, I do continue to see him posting vigorously about Hillary.

Let me emphasize again. that poster was not you and you have not done the same. Still, I have had the very distinct impression that you do support Hillary and no other.

But I don't oppose her either, and I don't appreciate people who spread lies about her.

Posting something like that to me could imply that I've been spreading lies about Hillary. If your intent is not to smear me that way, kindly reserve comments like that to post or say to people who have been spreading lies about Hillary. I have not. If you think otherwise, kindly post links to my alleged lies and, if the post itself does not contain a link, I will provide you with this one because I don't want to see this implication again when you post to me.

[pnwmom]

43. I haven't seen you spread any lies about Hillary. I was just explaining

that some Hillary posts of mine have been in response to people who have. She is not "just like a Republican." Certainly any living Republican. Fifty years ago there were such things as "liberal Republicans" (John Lindsay and John Rockefeller). But they're long gone.

[merrily]

51. Thank you because your post could have been read differently.

Saying "She is just like a Republican" is not a lie. I seen no intent to deceive and no likelihood that any DUer will be deceived.

That is very obviously the opinion of one poster that everyone is free to take or leave And, it's an analogy to boot. By definition, when you say someone is like XYZ," you are NOT saying someone is XYX. One is analogy; the other is exact equivalence or identify.

At the very worst, it's imperfect wording or exaggeration.

A lie would be: "Hillary stole food from the Senate cafeteria." Clearly purporting to be a statement of fact and not merely my opinion--and even that would not be a lie if the poster truly believed it. Then, it would be only mistake or misremembering. No intent to deceive, just thinking incorrectly that he or she was passing on info. So, the first response to that should, in my opinion, be: Link?


Given the above, if I wanted to, I would be justified in calling you a liar for claiming that posting an analogy about Hillary that is not exactly an outlier opinion on DU = spreading lies about Hillary. But, it would never occur to me to do that.

When people post under screen names, about all they have is their credibilty. Please don't toss the L word around because someone has a different opinion about where Hillary falls along the political continuum than you have. Mistaken, exaggerating, wrong, all reasonable characterizatons, whether they are right or wrong. But not a lie.

[pnwmom]

55. What Republicans is she "just like"? Her voting scores were the same as Obama's when they

were in the Senate, as measured by Progressive Punch and On the Issues. The people who thought Obama was much more progressive were just thinking wishfully, and that's why so many of them have been disappointed with his Presidency. In the end, Obama had to work with a more conservative Congress, and that's the situation the next President will also probably face.

None of the Rethugs, even the ones who later resigned, came close on voting progressively to either HRC or Obama.

[merrily]

56. How did you misread my post by that much?

How is my saying someone stating his or opinion via an analogy with no intent or likelihood of deception is not a lie resulting in your expecting me to defend their comment? I thought my post was so clear. I took pains to make it clear.

I give up.

ETA: Just read your post down thread accusing me of lying. Now I get it. I could have spent hours making it clearer. It could have been crystal clear and it would not have mattered.

[librechik]

6. aaaarrrghhh! I don't care! Can we PLEASE

reduce our election period down to 6 to 10 months, only twice what normal big countries have? I'm a big fan of discussing politics but this cutthroat horse race YEARS before the election is simply insane! It's all about money, and money in politics is strangling us.

we can be about more than our stinking rotten elections 24/7. Can't we?

[justabob]

16. really

Last edited Thu Sep 18, 2014, 12:35 PM - Edit history (1)

6-10 months would be awesome. We need an effing break.

We are turning way more people off than on with the perpetual election hype, and especially the demands for fealty to any particular person. I know this op is about Sanders, but I think the bullying that goes on regarding support for any person (especially one who has not yet made it official) is counter-productive at best. I will NOT pledge my vote to a candidate two years out, and before we even know who else is in. I just won't, and I think the demands to do so are doing the party as a whole more harm than good. I do not care if there is a D behind their name, and name recognition, and years of service, and all the party resources backing that person.... IT IS TWO YEARS OUT. Almost anything can happen before the election. Good lord people, give it a rest.

[Xyzse]

7. I can agree with this.

I'm in no one's bandwagon, but HRC is still my last choice at the moment.

[LynneSin]

14. In the end I'll vote for the candidate on the Democratic party

And unless somehow the Democrats manage to exhume and resurrect the bodies of Hitler and Pol Pot and run them as their candidates I will probably have no issue voting for whomever is on the ticket.

But until then I want to enjoy a good healthy democratic primary season!

[Xyzse]

19. Pretty much where I'm at.

[freshwest]

32. +1!!!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

53. I'm with you. We should at least hear where our candidates stand on the issues. Hillary is afraid to take a stand on anything.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

54. In fact, Hillary does better in the polls when she says nothing at all. That sure doesn't reflect well.

[merrily]

65. Her popularity ratings fell during her book tour. That doesn't bode well, either.

Is that why they've been trying to convince us for two years that, if Hillary chooses to run, no Dem will oppose her in a primary? "She'll clear the field?" I heard that, in almost the same words, too, from MSNBC hosts, like Matthews, and commentators and pundits, like Shrum and Shields.

How and why did so many go out on that same limb, in almost the same words, so fearlessly? And when, in all of US history, has anything like that happened in any party, 4 years out, esp. when no incumbent is involved?

Thought it was very odd indeed.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

69. Odd? Perhaps, but I'd use another adjective for this behavior: disgusting.

[el_bryanto]

8. Well, you've got my vote. nt

[FSogol]

9. I have a crazy idea! Let's have a primary!

[randome]

11. Take your crazy ideas somewhere else!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[FSogol]

12. You're right, the election should be decided by internet malcontents 2 years ahead of time.

[freshwest]

33. Because:

[Voice for Peace]

41. omigosh.. Bill Murray so young,

and look at those kids, having so much fun being in the scene.

Even if we win, we still have to make it good.
Even if we lose, we still have to make it good.
Either way.. every day we have to make it good.

[freshwest]

47. Like your attitude!

[Voice for Peace]

50. thanks.. it is a survival attitude.

If I can't make it good every day I will go insane and
be useless to everyone.

[merrily]

26. Democracy within the Democratic Party is to be avoided at all costs.

Let's have potential challengers shot.

Cheney seems to have time on his hands--and we know he owns a rifle.


(sorry to insult the intelligence of DUers who got the post without the emote)

[randome]

10. Yeah.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[tkmorris]

17. I don't think anyone yelled at you for not being on Sanders' bandwagon

That just seems so unreasonable to me I can't believe anyone would do that. Perhaps there was some sort of misunderstanding.

[pnwmom]

20. There is a poster in this thread

who is not yelling, but is falsely claiming that anyone who doesn't sign a petition to get Sanders to run but says they support an open primary is saying something that cannot be true.

That seems unreasonable to me.

Supporting an open primary does not mean you have to encourage any particular candidate to enter it.

[tkmorris]

28. As you say, that poster isn't doing what the OP describes

Further, they merely made an argument that a sincere desire to not see Sanders split the vote in the general might best be served by petitioning him to run as a Dem. I'm not seeing a problem there, though I don't entirely agree with the logic.

[pnwmom]

29. He could run as a Dem, lose, and then use that as a platform for running as an Independent.

There is nothing about running as a Dem in the primary that would keep him out of the general.

[tkmorris]

31. It wouldn't PREVENT him from doing so, no

But if one intends to run any sort of serious Independent campaign doing so right from the start is far preferable to cratering your budget in a losing primary first.

Of course ANY candidate could do that. Clinton could run as an Independent, or Biden, or anyone else. Yes, I know Sanders is an Independent currently, whereas they are not, but I see no signs from him that he is stupid enough to run a spoiler campaign.

[merrily]

61. He could but he would be wasting his time. No one would vote for anyone

Last edited Wed Mar 14, 2018, 01:26 AM - Edit history (1)

who switched twice in one election season. Give me a break.

[tazkcmo]

40. Sanders

He is not an egotistical malcontent. He's a very smart man that has a consistent track record of integrity. Disagreeing with his views is one thing but not giving the man credit for intelligence or integrity is another. Sen. Sanders will run as a Democrat in the primaries IF he runs at all precisely because he does not want to split the democratic vote and hand the WH to a Republican. Please, at least give him that much credit.

[merrily]

57. Wow. There you go again. Now, you're falsely claiming I made false claims.

Last edited Thu Sep 18, 2014, 02:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Twice in one thread. Or does this make it three times on one thread? Guess it does.

How very flattering that you are this desperate to attack my credibility. I didn't realize I was that good. Thanks. Nor did I realize it was possible to be flattered and revulsed simultaneously.

Based on this, I take back what I just posted, in the second post of mine on this thread that you totally twisted.

So, if I wanted to, I would be justified in calling you a liar for claiming that posting an analogy about Hillary that is not exactly an outlier opinion on DU = spreading lies about Hillary. But, it would never occur to me to do that.

you just made it totally fair for almost anything to occur to me. Thank you for teaching me your ways by your example.

And, just for the record I never said a thing about "anyone who did not sign a petition about Sanders." Please stop re-wording my posts in order to enable yourself to assert that I am the one making false claims.

I don't think I can reply again to you today. Until the next time, pwnmom

[pnwmom]

67. You already answered me twice in this same thread about the same thing. Weird. n/t

[Scuba]

21. If you wait too long, someone else will pick your choices for you.

It's never too early to be vetting and preparing candidates at the school board and county board levels.

It's never too early to volunteer for the campaign of someone you support.

[politicat]

23. Yes, exactly.

We're 25.5 months out.

I'm still feeling burned from early support for Howard Dean and Bill Bradley. I don't mind seeing the early auditions, but I'm not ready to cast for this particular role yet. We're still deep in pre-production. The script isn't even finished and the funding hasn't been green-lighted yet -- how can we possibly be casting now?

[BlueJac]

30. I see......

let's just stick the same old kind of Democrat again and again. Just sayin.

[LynneSin]

42. How is me keeping an open mind sticking with the same old democrats?

And I really do have an issue with Sanders age especially when Warren pretty much is ideologically like Sanders but 30 years younger.

[tazkcmo]

46. That's fair

I'd also go Warren over Sanders for that reason. Unfortunately, she has declared several times she's not running while Sanders is publicly admitting he is considering it. As several have said, it's still early and while I currently support Sen Sanders I'm not so stubborn that I've closed my mind to with drawing my support for what ever reason. My focus is really mid-term elections but I can multi-task. For example, while writing this post I'm also thinking about how nice a cup of coffee would be!

[LynneSin]

48. Obama declared several times he wasn't going to run

It's too early to say she's out.

[tazkcmo]

68. Didn't say she was out

Just said she wasn't in nor has she expressed an interest in running as Sanders has done. Heck, right now, nobody is really in or out so all of our talk is conjecture and hopeful thinking. Even Mrs Clinton isn't officially in.

[greatauntoftriplets]

60. Warren is only 8 years younger than Sanders.

[LynneSin]

63. She is? Heck she looks alot younger

I can deal with 65 - 67 still makes her younger than what Reagan was when he was first elected. I kinda use him as my guideline as to what is 'too old' to serve. And yes that means Joe Biden is too old to serve too. I know Biden is itching to run and I would have loved to see Joe Biden as President but I think Joe is also too old, he's already 71 and he has had some serious health history in the past

I thought Warren was in her 50s. Go figure.

[greatauntoftriplets]

64. She'll be 65 this year.

Sanders would be 75 on inauguration day.

[LynneSin]

66. I can deal with 65 but that's about my limit for running for president

She's a year younger than Hillary and I have had no issues with Hillary running either. In a nutshell under 70 on election day is pretty much my cut-off for age.

[Agschmid]

34. Yup.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

36. Amen to that!

It's still 18 months away. I'd rather live today.

[greatauntoftriplets]

39. I'm with you, Lynne.

The Illinois primary is still about 18 months away. There's lots of time and no one has announced yet.

[tazkcmo]

44. I am Pro Sanders

I am even more importantly SUPER DOOPER double plus anti-Republican. I'm with you and would love to see a robust primary with quality candidates. I also support all of our rights to be pro who ever, anti who ever or undecided. You'll not be "yelled" at by me!

[upaloopa]

45. It is way to early to pic a candidate.

We don't even know who is going to be a candidate. I think some people here like the the fight so they are starting one.
When the field is announced I will pick who I support and who I don't.
Meanwhile all you folks who are itching for a fight just keep it amount yourselves.

[Doctor_J]

49. Ready For Hillary is not bandwagon?

[Man from Pickens]

52. Too early for bandwagoning

NOT too early to assess options

[sadoldgirl]

58. Just speaking for myself

I know a lot about Hillary, also through the Thom H. show about Sanders, and read E.W.'s book as well as some of her speeches.

But I don't know any reasonable amount about Sherrot Brown, gov. Malloy or, yes even about present day Biden. Should any of these people run, I will need more information.

Whoever will run, I hope there will be at least 5 sane and intelligent candidates.

[LynneSin]

59. I don't want the Clown Car show that was the 2012 Republican primaries

that was a joke and honestly it was an embarrassment.