Suspicions Run Deep in Iraq That C.I.A. and the Islamic State Are United

[cali]

The United States has conducted an escalating campaign of deadly airstrikes against the extremists of the Islamic State for more than a month. But that appears to have done little to tamp down the conspiracy theories still circulating from the streets of Baghdad to the highest levels of Iraqi government that the C.I.A. is secretly behind the same extremists that it is now attacking.

“We know about who made Daesh,” said Bahaa al-Araji, a deputy prime minister, using an Arabic shorthand for the Islamic State on Saturday at a demonstration called by the Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr to warn against the possible deployment of American ground troops. Mr. Sadr publicly blamed the C.I.A. for creating the Islamic State in a speech last week, and interviews suggested that most of the few thousand people at the demonstration, including dozens of members of Parliament, subscribed to the same theory. (Mr. Sadr is considered close to Iran, and the theory is popular there as well.)

When an American journalist asked Mr. Araji to clarify if he blamed the C.I.A. for the Islamic State, he retreated: “I don’t know. I am one of the poor people,” he said, speaking fluent English and quickly stepping back toward the open door of a chauffeur-driven SUV. “But we fear very much. Thank you!”

The prevalence of the theory in the streets underscored the deep suspicions of the American military’s return to Iraq more than a decade after its invasion, in 2003. The casual endorsement by a senior official, though, was also a pointed reminder that the new Iraqi government may be an awkward partner for the American-led campaign to drive out the extremists.

<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/21/world/middleeast/suspicions-run-deep-in-iraq-that-cia-and-the-islamic-state-are-united.html

[jwirr]

1. Unfortunately our reputation has preceeded us.

[Fred Sanders]

24. Wonder how come suspicions run deep? Was it the lying about WMDs and then invading?

Forgive and forget, guys, this time America will lie you into a more just war.

[Aerows]

45. Exactly

This isn't exactly our first rodeo.

[OilemFirchen]

2. I fail to see the problem.

If a bomb from wherever takes out some ISIS cretins, let the locals believe they were CIA.

Win-win.

[cali]

3. the problem would be that we are widely distrusted throughout Iraq

[OilemFirchen]

5. Killing a bunch of "CIA agents" won't make that worse.

Will it?

[mylye2222]

9. And the decade's baggage CIA got previously....

In the Middle East....in Central America.....

[Aerows]

44. We've all seen this movie before

We already know how the plot goes.

[Aerows]

4. Who *hasn't* had this thought cross their mind?

I'm not saying it is true, but given the history of the CIA, it is hardly implausible.

[OilemFirchen]

6. Me.

I'm not saying it's aliens...

[Aerows]

7. I wish I still had that kind of optimism.

Unfortunately, I'm too aware of history and current events.

[OilemFirchen]

8. It's not optimism.

It's common sense. Y'know... Occam's stupid razor and shit.

[Aerows]

10. Well, there are a few choices

A) The CIA/NSA/DIA/etc are completely incompetent and didn't see the rise of ISIL coming.

B) The CIA/NSA/DIA/etc are competent and dragged us into the war the MIC has been chomping at the bit for since last year.

Your choice, Occam's razor and shit.

[cheapdate]

23. Or, ISIL rose above the background level

Last edited Sat Sep 20, 2014, 09:12 PM - Edit history (1)

of criminal and sectarian violence in Iraq and there was fuck-all we could do about it.

(P.S. -- works for Ukraine and the Crimea too.)

(P.S.S. -- works for Boko Harem, AQIM, Abu Sayyaf...in fact, a lot of shit happens in the world that, believe it or not, we have absolutely no control over.)

[Aerows]

36. In other words

Our intelligence community is incompetent.

As much funding as they get, the privacy rights they trample upon and the personnel that they have if this "rose above the background level" before they noticed the possibility, then they aren't worth a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out.

They either knew or didn't know and should have known.

Cut the hell out of their funding either way, because they aren't worth the billions they receive either way.

[cheapdate]

46. No, in other words they're not omnipotent.

Maybe they "noticed the possibility" and maybe they didn't. Doesn't really matter since there really wasn't really jack-shit they could do about it if they they did.

If your proposal is to reduce CIA funding but your supporting argument is that they haven't displayed total and complete situational awareness in every possible conflict zone in the world and furthermore they have not displayed an effective ability to directly influence the outcome of any and all of those conflicts, then I'm sorry, but it sounds confusing.

[Aerows]

48. LOL

I'm delighted by your ham-handed response that doesn't address the realities of what the intelligence community exists to do.

But by all means, here is a shovel. You are welcome to keep digging until your confusion wears off.

You aren't going to find a treasure of "Oh how glorious and just this war we wage" with me. Don't bother. I've seen this movie before, and this has got to be the most foolish rendition yet.

[cheapdate]

49. At no point in this exchange

was the question raised, what does the intelligence community exist to do?

My response, which you call "ham-handed," might have been awkward as hell, but your insistence on an expectation of an all-powerful and omnipotent CIA, able to infallibly predict and control events anywhere around the globe is absurd.

Some people attribute astonishing powers to the CIA in order to explain world events. Others paint the CIA as wholly incompetent. You're on both sides. They're all powerful and they're incompetent.

The CIA has been spectacularly wrong before. They've defended thugs and dictators. I have no love for the CIA.

But please, continue to free-associate "plausible" CIA plots. No one can ever prove you wrong.

[Aerows]

67. No one except anyone that has read the last 6 decades

of history.

Let's just pretend that South and Central America don't exist, if you are looking for prime examples. They are absolutely plentiful to the south of the United States.

I won't even start with the adventures in the Middle East because my fingers would get tired listing them.

Oh no, there are PLENTY of things that have been done by the CIA that are not only plausible but well-known to history.

Bay of Pigs ring a bell?

I could keep this up all day, but I won't because none are so blind as those that refuse to see (for whatever reason they refuse to see).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014900397#top

Care to disagree with Samantha Power that this isn't about toppling Assad?

I'd think that she is way more informed than the handful of people on DU that are still claiming that this isn't the real goal for US involvement.

[cheapdate]

72. Bay of Pigs?

There was no convoluted plot in the Bay of Pigs. We straight-up armed a fighting force to overthrow Castro. It failed.

Other than the secrecy, there was no convoluted plot in El Salvador or Nicaragua. We straight-up gave money, arms, training, and support to right-wing governments to help them violently suppress legitimate political movements inside their own countries.

There isn't any question or secrecy that American policy is to remove Assad from power and end the Assad regime. It's the expressed, official, objective of our foreign policy.

The beauty of proclaiming that the United States government secretly and deliberately created the group known as ISIL, planned their military success in Iraq, planned their expansion into Syria, just so that we could accelerate the arming of the Syrian opposition, which we were already doing, is that no one can ever disprove it.

[Aerows]

73. Chile

I dare you to blythely explain that one away. Not that your explanations for the other incidents DON'T completely defy history, but I'll give you an easy one.

Chile. Go for it.

[Aerows]

74. Oh, and far as the Bay of Pigs

is concerned, you are either knowledgeable about the historical reference and situation or you aren't. I highly suggest you read up on it if you wish to be aware of historical facts because it appears that you haven't researched the situation adequately.

[cheapdate]

81. Poppycock.

There's nothing in dispute. The United States government, through the CIA, recruited, trained, funded, provisioned, planned, and participated in the failed invasion and overthrow of Castro in the Bay of Pigs.

In Chile, the CIA, through a variety of secret and illegal means, including murder and kidnapping, succeeded in overthrowing the popular and democratically elected leader of Chile and replacing him with the despotic, right-wing Pinochet, ushering in a decade of murder, torture, and oppression.

There's no reason to go from Chile and Cuba to the conclusion that the United States government intentionally planned, established, funded and trained ISIL for the purpose of...(fill in the blank).

Syria is complicated as hell. Nationwide demonstrations against the 30 year autocratic rule of the Assad family turned ugly when Assad turned his guns on the demonstrators. It soon became an all-out civil war with as many different sides as there are different affiliations in Syria. Foreign fighters from all over have joined the fray. The U.S., for it's own stupid reasons, has an interest in the outcome. Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, all have different interests. The CIA is everywhere in the region. In Pakistan, Libya, Jordan, Iraq, etc.

Out of all of this mess, it's a no-risk proposition to claim that the CIA planned or orchestrated this or that. It's fairly common knowledge that the CIA has been supplying arms and training clandestinely. The CIA has helped set up training facilities in Jordan.

The CIA created ISIL? No one can prove they didn't. That's not possible. I haven't seen any "proof" that they did. Just vague speculation about possibilities. Such is the stuff of conspiracy theory.

[Aerows]

83. Oh my word.

You just wrote all of that and are still suspending your disbelief on this particular fairy tale about the horrors of ISIS and how this isn't about toppling Assad.

Read what you just wrote.

Then read it again.

[cheapdate]

84. How could I possibly express this any clearer?

"There isn't any question or secrecy that American policy is to remove Assad from power and end the Assad regime. It's the expressed, official, objective of our foreign policy." -Me, from one post ago

[Aerows]

86. Are you okay with that objective? n/t

[cheapdate]

92. Do you support Bashar al-Assad?

Are you OK with Iran having nuclear weapons? Was Bill Clinton right to use U.S. airpower to break the siege of Sarajevo? Should the U.S. walk away from the Kurds in northern Iraq?

There are no easy answers in Iraq or Syria.

Fuck Bashar al-Assad and his secret police and his corrupt government. Thousands of Syrians held nationwide protests in 2011 calling for political reforms and an end to 40 years of Assad family rule. Assad responded with lethal violence that ignited this war. One of the oldest occupied cities in the world, the beautiful city of Aleppo, is in ruins. Thousands are dead.

In the past week, an estimated one hundred thousand refugees have fled their homes in Syrian border towns in advance of ISIL's rampage. The refugees are desperately seeking refuge across the border in Turkey, which is struggling to deal with the situation. Refugees by the thousands are also seeking shelter in Jordan and Lebanon.

If I was in charge, I'd support all legitimate multi-national humanitarian relief efforts. I'd consult with our allies in Jordan and Turkey. I'd try to do the right thing, whatever that is.

[pinto]

28. I've never given it much weight.

The power vacuum in Iraq, Maliki's blatant opposition politically and militarily to any Sunni involvement in Iraq affairs and a jingoistic fractured national structure are a key.

Interfaith conflict was fueled in that scenario.

[Aerows]

37. Like I said

If the intelligence community was blindsided by this, they are incompetent. If this was by design, they are competent and corrupt.

Neither pick is pretty, but both indicate that they need to be reined in and HARD, budgets slashed and personnel shit canned before they cause more trouble through incompetence or complicit corruption.

[Man from Pickens]

11. I'm at the point where I'm ready to believe

that there is a division of the CIA dedicated to making sure the US is always at war with somebody

got to keep those defense dollars flowing somehow, right?

[Initech]

13. The CIAs origins are very suspicious to begin with.

And I'm sure they have never got over the failed coup that was tht Bay Of Pigs.

[grasswire]

31. bingo

In the last few days I have concluded that the MIC and the Intel communities are fully partnered in order to strip money from the citizenry in the biggest heist yet, using the WH to be a mere fig leaf.

What other conclusion can there be?

[Aerows]

38. Only an absolute idiot

would believe that as many intelligence agencies that we have no one noticed ISIL selling oil. Nobody noticed? Did the oil fairy transport it from point A to point B with NOBODY in the intelligence community noticing?

It's not like a high school student selling weed or forming a gang for heaven's sake. I'm just not that dumb.

Anyone that wants to pretend that they are that dumb is welcome to do so, but I'm not going to pretend I'm that stupid.

[951-Riverside]

12. This is not a "theory" or a secret. ISIS is funded, trained and supplied weapons by our government

or more accurately, the Military Industrial Complex.

The "founding fathers" would be proud of the mass genocide the military industrial complex was able to accomplish in just a few years against the indigenous people in the middle east using these for hire ISIS mercenaries.

The plan has always been to supply these ruthless mercs with training, weapons and money then set them loose to destabilize countries and slaughter millions for a few years then come in with tanks, drones and bombs to finish off whatever defense is left while making an insane profit from the weapons and conquered land.



Why have "boots on the ground" when you have thousands of ruthless mercs already there? And at least with these mercs you don't have to worry about "PTSD"

and...



Video: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/syria-arming-the-rebels/

NARRATOR: But in recent weeks, they have been receiving more sophisticated weapons. It appears the Obama administration is now allowing select groups of rebels like them to receive U.S.-made anti-tank missiles, known as TOWs. Many of the fighters have filmed themselves firing the missiles. In addition to receiving weapons, the commander says he and his men were taken on a long journey to a secret training camp.

REBEL COMMANDER: [through interpreter] They asked for a group of 80 or 90 fighters from our command, and we headed towards the Turkish border.

NARRATOR: Based on their accounts, we retraced their journey across the border into Turkey. After a 14-hour drive, they say they arrived in the Turkish capital of Ankara and were brought to a hotel. They were kept inside and questioned by Americans, who would only say they were from the military. But the rebels believed they were from the CIA.

REBEL COMMANDER: [through interpreter] We met them for six to seven hours a day. It was medical examinations, questions for each person individually, like, “When did you join the uprising?” And “What was your profession or military rank?”

They had tracked our work and asked us to verify information about attacks we carried out, such as who was present and how many men were martyred. Your responses have to match the entire group’s.

NARRATOR: A week later, the rebels say they were surprised by what happened next.

REBEL COMMANDER: [through interpreter] We only found out where we were going to be trained on the last day in Ankara, when the Americans said goodbye and that, “Tomorrow, we’ll see you in Qatar.”

NARRATOR: They were flown 1,500 miles away to Doha, the capital of Qatar, which is a key U.S. ally in the Persian Gulf.

REBEL COMMANDER: [through interpreter] We drove for about two, two-and-a-half hours to reach the training ground. It was close to the Saudi border. We didn’t know where we were because it was desert all around.

NARRATOR: Over the course of three weeks, they say they were trained by Americans at a base in the desert guarded by Qatari soldiers. Like many of the rebels who were sent to Qatar, 21-year-old Hussein had never had any previous military training.

HUSSEIN: [through interpreter] They trained us to ambush regime or enemy vehicles and cut off the road. They also trained us on how to attack a vehicle, raid it, retrieve information or weapons and munitions, and how to finish off soldiers still alive after an ambush.

NARRATOR: The rebels were outfitted with brand-new uniforms and boots.

MUHAMMAD ALI: [subtitles] Those trousers are from them, right?

HUSSEIN: [subtitles] Yeah. We got these boots in training.

MUHAMMAD ALI: The Americans were warning the fighters not to tell this story at all. And even at one point, they told them, “If in any case this story will be published, we will stop funding you or arming you.”

NARRATOR: The CIA and the State Department declined to comment on the fighters’ accounts of arming and training, though the Obama administration has said it plans to step up support to the rebels, and there have been other reports the CIA is running covert training out of Jordan.

[oberliner]

15. This crap has been debunked many times

Yet a few folks around here seem to like to keep putting it out there anyway.

[951-Riverside]

16. Just folding your arms and saying that its been debunked doesnt work...

You've gotta have something to back it up.

I posted links to 2 videos and a partial transcript of a report from PBS Frontline, now its your turn.

Edit: And pray tell what exactly has been "debunked"?

[Aerows]

19. I can tell you what hasn't been debunked

The fact that Saudi Arabia and Qatar FUNDED ISIL because they want Sunnis in control of Syria. That's a well proven fact. ISIL sprang up because last year we weren't successfully goaded into a war with Syria.

[Scootaloo]

51. Who is it the sitting US president has pledged to fund and arm in Syria, again?

[Aerows]

66. Everyone else in Syria that

wants to fight ISIL.

It's a mistake in the making. Wading into another country during their civil war has rarely turned out the way those that wade in envisioned it turning out.

[Scootaloo]

70. If one assumes the goal is to fix, rather than cause problems, at least

I no longer make such an assumption. it simply boggles the mind to think that every administration since Truman has truly been so stupid and incompetent. What's more likely, that all of these administrations are legitimately trying to help, but are manned by the Inspector Closeaus of US politics... or that the "here to help" thing is a veneer for the US people to cover an effort to get exactly the results seen?

[Aerows]

71. The goal is to topple Assad

Period. Even Samantha Power stated it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014900397#top

When a politician leaves the door open for an action or outcome that they believe would be beneficial, you can pretty much guarantee that is the real goal.

I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

[Scootaloo]

79. Except that's not beneficial

Unless you regard another decade of civil war and regional instability to be "beneficial."

We have this thing called "history." We can learn stuff from it.

[Aerows]

80. Actually

my comment was "Believe to be beneficial" not that it "would be beneficial".

I've seen this movie several times and it gets no more believable with repetition.

The only people that are going to benefit from this are defense contractors and politicians that can thump their chests. Everyone else gets screwed.

This isn't my first rodeo, sadly.

[Scootaloo]

82. I'm sorry, I was using the general "you"

Englamish is for fun!

[Aerows]

85. Gotcha

There are a handful of posters that are adamant that "this time it is different!" when those who have been paying attention just shake our heads and sigh, that it is tough to tell sometimes.

I should have known to expect better from you Scoot. You are a lot brighter than most on the subject of geopolitics.

[oberliner]

54. Have already presented links last time you posted this same junk

The stuff with the McCain photo is addressed by the NY Times here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/world/middleeast/try-as-he-may-john-mccain-cant-shake-falsehoods-about-ties-to-isis.html?_r=0

[951-Riverside]

57. An NYT article that regurgitates a statement from McCain's spokesperson? ...That's it?

1. That article has nothing to do with anything I posted nor does it "debunk" anything that I posted also I never said McCain met with Baghdadi which is what the article tries to "debunk" based solely on a statement from his spokesperson.

Everyone can read my post here http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5563956

Its interesting that you and a few others selectively focus on that picture and nothing else but since we're talking about that photo and McCain...

2. The photo is real, McTraitor really did go into Syria and meet with them (one of the people in the photo was identified right away as a known kidnapper)

3. Over the past year McTraitor has publicly advocated for sending them even more weapons on the behalf is his Saudi Friends

from the article:

JOHN McCAIN: “Thank God for the Saudis and Prince Bandar, and for our Qatari friends,”

Speaking of Qatari. That's where the fighters themselves admit they've been receiving training from.

REBEL COMMANDER: We only found out where we were going to be trained on the last day in Ankara, when the Americans said goodbye and that, “Tomorrow, we’ll see you in Qatar.”

(snip)

NARRATOR: Over the course of three weeks, they say they were trained by Americans at a base in the desert guarded by Qatari soldiers. Like many of the rebels who were sent to Qatar, 21-year-old Hussein had never had any previous military training.

Source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/syria-arming-the-rebels/

4. McTraitor went on Faux News* and said he knows them "intimately" and "We talk to them all the time"

MCCAIN: It's not true. Whether -- I don't care about the report. I know these people intimately. We talk to them all the time. But also, let me point out that if we are going to conduct a conflict the way you are describing it, and I'm afraid that's the case, this is reminiscent of Vietnam, the gradual escalation that ended up in one of the worst defeats that America has ever suffered.

even more...

HANNITY: Let me ask you about what your colleague, Rand Paul, said about it this morning. He said it's a mistake to arm them. Most of the arms we've given the so-called moderate rebels have wound up in the hands of ISIS because ISIS simply takes it from them or it is given to them, and we mistakenly actually end up giving it to some radicals. How -- how -- look, things are very...

MCCAIN: Has Rand Paul -- has Rand Paul ever been to Syria? Has he ever met with ISIS? Has he ever met with...

HANNITY: I'm not trying to cause a fight, Senator.

MCCAIN: ... any of these people? No, no, no. I -- we're going to have a fight because it's patently false. This is the same Rand Paul that said we didn't want to have anything to do with anything to do in the Middle East, by the way. I don't want to get in a fight with him at all.

HANNITY: Yes.

MCCAIN: But it's not true. I know these people. I'm in contact with them all the time...

HANNITY: All right, then let me ask you this...

MCCAIN: ... and he is not. And he is not. And he is not.

Source: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/transcript/2014/09/16/mccain-lack-mideast-help-result-american-indecision

*I only posted this Faux news transcript because it is the only place that McTraitor as publicly given a statement about his involvement in Syria and I believe that it is relevant to the point that I'm making.

[KoKo]

69. Recommend read....n/t

[Aerows]

18. It hasn't been debunked

except for a few that want to stick their fingers in their ears and say "Tra-la-la" because heading into this conflict aligns with their own personal opinions and goals.

No, my friend, it is very well documented that the very people that claim to be our allies are the very ones that funded ISIL - namely Saudi Arabia and Qatar. They have admitted it.

Who is buying all of that oil that ISIL is selling? Oh, that would be Turkey (Which Sen. Markey pointed out).

[oberliner]

53. The McCain photo has

The people in that photo were misidentified. Many news sources, such as the NY Times have outlined that in great detail.

[951-Riverside]

62. No, the McCain photo is very real even he doesnt deny that (Nice try though).

The Daily Star of Lebanon reported that McCain posed with a Syrian rebel kidnapper in a photograph. His office denies that the man identified himself and condemned the group's action.

The Daily Star of Lebanon reported Thursday that Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) was photographed with members of a group responsible for kidnapping 11 Lebanese Shiite pilgrims. His office, however, condemned their actions and said that no one in the meeting called themselves by the names mentioned in the report.

The Star reported that Mohammad Nour, a chief spokesman and photographer for the rebel group the Northern Storm Brigade, was photographed with McCain, according to families of the kidnapped and one person who was released. Abu Ibrahim, another man with a reported connection to the group, was also in the photograph.

McCain's office said that no one in the meeting identified themselves as Nour or Ibrahim.

"A number of the Syrians who greeted Sen. McCain upon his arrival in Syria asked to take pictures with him, and as always, the senator complied. If the individual photographed with Sen. McCain is in fact Mohamed Nour, that is regrettable," said spokesman Brian Rogers in an email.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/30/john-mccain-syria_n_3359166.html

[kwassa]

75. McCain didn't meet with Islamic State

but the Northern Brigades, their enemy.

from today's Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/09/18/four-pinocchios-for-rand-pauls-claim-that-mccain-met-with-the-islamic-state/

On May 27, 2013, McCain slipped across the Turkish border to spend a few hours in Syria with members of the Free Syrian Army. Mouaz Moustafa, executive director of the Syrian Emergency Task Force, who helped arrange the visit and was with McCain, said many soldiers were members or commanders of the Northern Storm brigade, which serves under the army’s Supreme Military Council. One man was Gen. Salim Idriss, who at the time was chief of staff of the Supreme Military Council.

“These guys, the Northern Storm brigade, are bitter enemies of ISIS,” Moustafa said, in part because they were so effective. As a result of the photos of the fighters with McCain, ISIS declared that “everyone in this picture needs their head chopped off,” he said. “After the meeting, many of the Northern Storm were completely killed by ISIS.”

In October, Reuters reported on an audio message from the Islamic State, which “accused the Northern Storm brigade of ‘opening a front’ against them in the Azaz area and of conspiring with ‘the American pig, John McCain’ to fight against the Islamists.”

[ballyhoo]

21. You got it. Another Helgian Dialectic, but this

time carried out more sloppily than the last one. We trained them, funded them, picked their leader at Camp Bucca, and keep their money flowing from source to user through Kuwait. These people know it because they see it through a thousand eyes.

[pinto]

29. Ah geeze. Along that same line of speculation I tag big pharma as the instigators.

[951-Riverside]

50. Its not "speculation". It was reported by PBS Frontline and other reputable news sources

and yes John McCain really did meet with them.

Even he admits that one but keep the one liners coming.

[cali]

52. actually, that was debunked. elehha did an op about

his purportedly meeting with ISIS members. I posted evidence that it wasn't true. She changed the op to read that it was fiction. I can't find that thread, but here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/world/middleeast/try-as-he-may-john-mccain-cant-shake-falsehoods-about-ties-to-isis.html?_r=1

Look, I've said repeatedly here that there is fluidity between moderate groups and ISIS other groups and that's one honking big reason not to arm and train so-called moderate groups, but I haven't much more than disdain for people believing shit just because it fits with their narrative.

[951-Riverside]

59. Can you point out where I said McCain met with "Mr. Baghdadi"?

Its just odd that you would try to "debunk" something that I never said, its also interesting that this article refers to the leader of ISIS as "Mr. Baghdadi".

Here's my post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5563956

Go ahead and point out where I said that.

[kwassa]

78. McCain never met with ISIS.

There is no connection between ISIS and the US government. There is a connection between other Syrian rebel groups and weapons we have supplied to them. There is connection between us and various Iraqi groups, as well.

but nothing between us and ISIS.

[951-Riverside]

87. Re "There is no connection between ISIS and the US government."

Well that's good enough for me.

There is a connection between other Syrian rebel groups and weapons we have supplied to them.

Oh right the "rebels" are funding, training and supplying the rebels ...I mean ISIS with weapons that was given to them by "US". *wink*

I'm sure this is how the interview process goes when they go looking for "moderate rebels"...

CIA Agent: "Are you moderate?"

Fighter: "err... ...uhh ...Yes" *shifty eyes*

CIA Agent: "Good enough for me! *mutters* its not like we can verify who you are anyway ...Here's some cash, a toyota pickup truck, a pile of black uniforms, boxes of weapons now go nuts ...and you may want to get that eye thing checked"

Fighter: And what about those really sharp knives we requested?

CIA Agent: There was a little mixup with one of our suppliers but I swear we'll have them here in 2 weeks!

______

To quote George W. Shrub:

“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”

No matter how many times some may try to spin reality, people arent buying it anymore. They know they're being lied to and they know all about the military industrial complex and their unending bloodthirsty for money, resources and land.

[kwassa]

89. Your entire post has zero facts to support it.

ISIS is full of American weapons, left behind when the Iraqi Army cut and ran. They are flush with American weapons. However, we did not give them the weapons.

You invent a speculative conversation between a CIA agent and a rebel. Creative, but worthless as a fact-based argument.

and then an irrelevant quote from George W. Bush.

OK.

[951-Riverside]

90. Re: "However, we did not give them the weapons." ...Well not directly ;)

but we all know how this game is played.



"See No Evil, Hear No Evil"

You invent a speculative conversation between a CIA agent and a rebel. Creative, but worthless as a fact-based argument.

I'll admit it was a lame attempt at humor but its true that you have no way of doing a background check or even can verify the names of these people and at this point I doubt the MIC even cares which is the whole point.

These guys come in, get their weapons, attend a few classes in Qatar or Saudi Arabia and out the door they go. Although I'm sure they're thoroughly inspected for microphones and hidden cameras before they're initially vetted by agents.

___________________




Video: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/syria-arming-the-rebels/

NARRATOR: But in recent weeks, they have been receiving more sophisticated weapons. It appears the Obama administration is now allowing select groups of rebels like them to receive U.S.-made anti-tank missiles, known as TOWs. Many of the fighters have filmed themselves firing the missiles. In addition to receiving weapons, the commander says he and his men were taken on a long journey to a secret training camp.

REBEL COMMANDER: [through interpreter] They asked for a group of 80 or 90 fighters from our command, and we headed towards the Turkish border.

NARRATOR: Based on their accounts, we retraced their journey across the border into Turkey. After a 14-hour drive, they say they arrived in the Turkish capital of Ankara and were brought to a hotel. They were kept inside and questioned by Americans, who would only say they were from the military. But the rebels believed they were from the CIA.

REBEL COMMANDER: [through interpreter] We met them for six to seven hours a day. It was medical examinations, questions for each person individually, like, “When did you join the uprising?” And “What was your profession or military rank?”

They had tracked our work and asked us to verify information about attacks we carried out, such as who was present and how many men were martyred. Your responses have to match the entire group’s.

NARRATOR: A week later, the rebels say they were surprised by what happened next.

REBEL COMMANDER: [through interpreter] We only found out where we were going to be trained on the last day in Ankara, when the Americans said goodbye and that, “Tomorrow, we’ll see you in Qatar.”

NARRATOR: They were flown 1,500 miles away to Doha, the capital of Qatar, which is a key U.S. ally in the Persian Gulf.

REBEL COMMANDER: [through interpreter] We drove for about two, two-and-a-half hours to reach the training ground. It was close to the Saudi border. We didn’t know where we were because it was desert all around.

NARRATOR: Over the course of three weeks, they say they were trained by Americans at a base in the desert guarded by Qatari soldiers. Like many of the rebels who were sent to Qatar, 21-year-old Hussein had never had any previous military training.

HUSSEIN: [through interpreter] They trained us to ambush regime or enemy vehicles and cut off the road. They also trained us on how to attack a vehicle, raid it, retrieve information or weapons and munitions, and how to finish off soldiers still alive after an ambush.

NARRATOR: The rebels were outfitted with brand-new uniforms and boots.

MUHAMMAD ALI: [subtitles] Those trousers are from them, right?

HUSSEIN: [subtitles] Yeah. We got these boots in training.

MUHAMMAD ALI: The Americans were warning the fighters not to tell this story at all. And even at one point, they told them, “If in any case this story will be published, we will stop funding you or arming you.”

NARRATOR: The CIA and the State Department declined to comment on the fighters’ accounts of arming and training, though the Obama administration has said it plans to step up support to the rebels, and there have been other reports the CIA is running covert training out of Jordan.

[kwassa]

91. and your entire quote from the Frontline documentary has nothing to do with ISIS.

Why do you keep re-posting it, over and over?

You have nothing about ISIS, really.

[951-Riverside]

93. I'm tired of playing word games. The "rebels" and ISIS are one in the same.

Lets just get that out there.

You(*) fund, train and arm people you call "moderate rebels", give them black flags, toyota trucks, black uniforms, body armor, let them loose, let them slaughter thousands of people then turn around and say we need more money for the "rebels" to stop ISIS when in fact the rebels are ISIS and the vicious cycle continues while the military industrial complex gets richer and expands.

"Gee! We didnt know we were arming the bad guys. SORRY!" has been played out, its not going to work this time.

No matter how much some may try spin it, people are very much aware of whats going on and hopefully enough people within will get sick of it, step out the shadows and speak up like Sibel Edmonds and John Kiriakou so we can begin having Nuremberg style trials for the people involved in the mass genocide that is happening in the middle east.

I would love nothing more then to see a bunch of those ISIS "rebels" cuffed and in international court standing beside their trainers, "handlers" and "case officers" along with the people who approve funding and logistics and the cretins involved in manipulating people into supporting their criminal enterprise on social media.

Government infiltrating websites to 'deny, disrupt, degrade, deceive' -- (Reddit Discussion)

‘Degrade, Disrupt, Deceive’: U.S. Talks Openly About Hacking Foes

Army of fake social media friends to promote propaganda



*By "you" I mean the folks who are directly involved in this either by training, funding, making money off or making up excuses and turning a blind eye to it. There is no "we" here, I as an american don't want this criminal enterprise aka the Military Industrial Complex slaughtering people in my country's name.

[kwassa]

94. You are absolutely wrong. ISIS is one rebel group among many, and not a moderate one.

and you have no direct or indirect link between the US and ISIS. You have no evidence despite all the links that have nothing to do with such a connection that you fill your posts with.

I don't know why you post such irrelevent material.

[Dreamer Tatum]

14. How To Make People Think You're Hep and World Savvy, by Dreamer Tatum

1. Recall from recent movies plot with nefarious CIA dealings.

2. Ignore that they are fiction.

3. Observe world events.

4. Adopt from movie plots elements required to implicate CIA.

5. Do not make direct claims. Merely ask vaguely leading questions or point out possibilities.
(Otherwise proof or evidence may be required)

6. Be prepared to subtly imply all bullshit-callers are in on it.

7. Prepare vague retorts to doubters. Options include "hey, it wouldn't surprise me at all," "how do you know they're NOT,"
"Methinks thou doth protest too much," "That's right, sheeple. You can't handle it," and "well, if you knew what I know..."

7. Enjoy the sweet smell of internet fame and admiration.

8. Repeat.

[Aerows]

17. Or you could read a few things and see why people think that.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/09/16/1330029/-Saudis-Lobbied-John-McCain-Lindsey-Graham-to-sell-War

That's a good place to start with more links and explanations than you can shake a stick at.

[OilemFirchen]

22. It may not always be about cred.

Never mind. It's always about cred.

[Aerows]

39. Anyone that wants to believe in this fairy tale

is welcome to do so. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I do, however, because suspension of disbelief can only stretch so far.

[cheapdate]

35. Yep. All of that.

But, it's very important to start with a grain of truth and build wildly on it. For instance, the United States was involved in a proxy war with the Soviet Union in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Al Qaeda can trace its genesis back, in part, to that conflict. Presto! Al Qaeda was the deliberate creation of the United States. Works for ISIL too.

[newfie11]

20. Who knows, maybe Iraq is right

I'm old enough to remember the things my country lied about.
As I said who knows!

[Scuba]

26. The same suspicions run deep in Wisconsin too.

[NuclearDem]

27. Hanlon's Razor yet again.

Also, CIAdidit

[sendero]

30. I used to think..

... that our government was just incompetent, that the obvious result we are seeing now, caused by our invasion of Iraq, was not what they expected.

But the more I think about it, if a duffer like me who spends a couple hours a week reading about this stuff can see it coming, how can legions of paid analysts and pols not see it?

The answer is simple, they saw it just fine. This was the plan all along. There's your "Occam's Razor".

[Octafish]

32. Where would they get that crazy idea?

[Rex]

41. I miss ol Swampy!

Well it's not like the CIA worked hand in hand with Osama Bin Laden...not like he was their key guy in the Afghanistan war against the Russians. The CIA would never work with the bad guys! The CIA could never even be the bad guys! Bay of Pigs? College prank.

Give those guys and the Saudi Royal Family a break Octafish, there are still trillions more to bleed dry from the American middle class!


Oil at first sight.

[Aerows]

43. This is going to be a hard bit of snake oil

for even the most skilled to sell.

I've seen this movie before!

[Rex]

47. Yeah was going to just keep my mouth shut on this one. But what the hey.

Since no one even wants to talk about 9/11 being over Poppy wanting to build military bases in Saudi Arabia. With half the population believing Saddam was to blame...it almost seems impossible to find people that have 3 brain cells and an attention span longer than 30 minutes.

Seen the movie and the sequel.

[Aerows]

42. I'm not going to apologize

for not being stupid enough to believe that this isn't contrived because we didn't go to war in Syria last year.

I have a few brain cells to rub together and I suspect that even those who feign belief in this "ISIL came out of nowhere without anyone noticing and no one knows who funded them" fairy tale realize this is going to be a hard sell.

[flamingdem]

76. Work of art!

[GeorgeGist]

33. The cartoonish evil might be a clue.

[Aerows]

40. Exactly.

This has gotten so silly it is on the same plane as "My dog ate my homework."

Seriously. Pull my other finger.

[Lint Head]

34. Opportunity created by 1 percenters? Keep the

merchants of war in the black? Isn't the asshat who started Blackwater in that part of the world now? Oil? Many questions. ISIS existence is very convenient for those who lust for bloodshed and power. More than likely there is no conspiracy but the behind the scenes manipulation of intelligence that resulted in dead soldiers and civilians and only came to light after Bush's blunder into Iraq does make one wonder. I don't believe Obama would knowingly be involved in anything as dastardly as Bush and Cheney. But enough money can buy enough discord to manipulate well intentioned people.

[sufrommich]

55. People steeped in religion and superstition tend to

believe conspiracy theories.

[cali]

60. This is much deeper and broader than that as the article makes clear

It has much more to do with our actions in Iraq over the past 10+ years; much more to do with Abu-Ghraib and with the destruction of Iraq as a functioning society.

I also think it's condescending, at best, to make that generalization about the Iraqi people.

[bemildred]

56. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community

[kentuck]

58. The thought had crossed my mind...

..and anyone that has known CIA operations for a long time.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

61. ISIS are rank amateurs at terrorism compared to the CIA.

[Dreamer Tatum]

64. And if you don't believe that

just go look at IMDB.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. Or, history.

[Aerows]

68. You could listen to Ambassador Samantha Power

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014900397#top

And open a history book.

[KurtNYC]

63. McCain fed this idea directly when he blurted out that "everyone in the National Security Team

recommended arming ISIS"

He did not stop, did not correct himself just went right on with the story.

(at 1:31 in video) McCain: "Hillary Clinton has described already the meeting at the Whitehouse over two years ago, everyone in the National Security Team recommended arming ISIS and the President, by himself, turned it down. Just like, by himself, he decided not to strike Syria after he said that they'd crossed a red line."

[RedCappedBandit]

77. It is in the interest of some very wealthy parties for the US to be continuously at war.

That thought alone brings rise to many questions.

When you capitalize on war, you certainly don't have the incentive to promote peace, at the very least.

[ucrdem]

88. If the NYT is pushing a CT, you can bet they've got it twisted around.

On purpose. ISIL could be a US artifact, but not this administration's. Obama gains nothing from ginning up ME quagmires which are clearly lose-lose propositions for Dems. Benghazis, as it were. Anyway the CIA is only one of many intel players, and not the best. Our friends do agitprop butchery better. Also Yanks tend to favor blowing things up, not recidivist rituals like beheadings. Now, I wouldn't put anything past the AEI crowd, and they may well have had a hand in this, but the Obama admin in my observation managed to gain more or less full control of the US mil-intel levers in November 2012, when Mr Petreaus went away, and ISIS is not their doing.

..............
p.s. JMHO, YMMV. A very intriguing post!