A List of Russian Provocations Against Its Neighbors

[Benton D Struckcheon]

This is besides the occupation of Crimea, the invasion of eastern Ukraine, the insertion of Russian troops into new "republics" in Georgia, and their ongoing "peacekeeping" in Transnistria in Moldova:

1. Estonian policeman kidnapped by Russia: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/russia-parades-detained-estonian-police-officer

2. Lithuanian fishing boat seized by Russia while in international waters, Russian ambassador called in for a dressing down: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-19/lithuania-says-russia-seized-ship-as-baltic-tensions-grow.html

3. Russian planes buzz US and Canadian airspace: http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/19/us/russian-plane-incidents/index.html

4. Russian planes invade Swedish airspace, Russian ambassador called in for a dressing down (noticing a pattern?): http://www.thelocal.se/20140919/russian-flights-condemned-by-social-democrats

5. Finnish airspace invaded three times in one week: http://www.vox.com/2014/8/29/6083849/russia-finland-airspace-nato-membership

6. Russian planes buzz Scotland: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2762225/British-fighter-jets-execute-flawless-scramble-intercept-two-Russian-Bear-aircraft-flying-international-airspace.html

Like they say, once is chance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action. 6 incidents, while invading three different neighboring countries at once? Someone wants a war against, well, everyone, on the evidence. Why I have no idea.

[Louisiana1976]

1. All Russia wants is peace--a piece of Ukraine, a piece of Estonia, a piece of Lithuania......

[Duckhunter935]

2. piece by piece

they will keep trying and seem to be winning.

[Cha]

3. Thank you, Benton.. we need the facts here. Not what Putin says brought to us by RTers

Last edited Sat Sep 20, 2014, 07:19 PM - Edit history (1)

This is also happening..

UKRAINE TODAY @uatodaytv
Follow
#Ukraine Forms Military Alliance with Poles and Lithuanians

#UkraineUnderAttack #UkraineUnderAttack
2:00 AM - 20 Sep 2014

http://theobamadiary.com/2014/09/20/chat-away-439/

There's willful obtuseness on the internetz but those who are experiencing what Putin's doing are not so blasé about the aggression.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

4. Thanks.

I figured it all needed to be listed together, so that no excuse could be made. It's pretty obvious what's going on here, once you look at the whole picture.

[Cha]

8. Sorry, I posted the vid twice..

I've been trying to edit and take one away and then my internet connection went down.. Still working on it.

[Duckhunter935]

7. and the attacks on

Mariupol and the Donetsk airport continue despite both cease fires agreed to by the pro-Russian fighters.

[Cha]

9. Exactly.. those poor people under fire.. but, "noooo, it's not really happening". :(

[stevenleser]

5. Can I steal this? LOL, if not, PM me with your name and I will give you credit. nt

[Benton D Struckcheon]

6. Check your mail.

Practice pronouncing the unpronounceable.

[Cha]

10. lol

[reorg]

11. Did the West break its promise to Moscow?

After speaking with many of those involved and examining previously classified British and German documents in detail, SPIEGEL has concluded that there was no doubt that the West did everything it could to give the Soviets the impression that NATO membership was out of the question for countries like Poland, Hungary or Czechoslovakia.

On Feb. 10, 1990, between 4 and 6:30 p.m., Genscher spoke with Shevardnadze. According to the German record of the conversation, which was only recently declassified, Genscher said: "We are aware that NATO membership for a unified Germany raises complicated questions. For us, however, one thing is certain: NATO will not expand to the east." And because the conversation revolved mainly around East Germany, Genscher added explicitly: "As far as the non-expansion of NATO is concerned, this also applies in general."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nato-s-eastward-expansion-did-the-west-break-its-promise-to-moscow-a-663315.html

Genscher was interviewed last week and it was widely reported (in Germany, the English language press are obviously not interested) that he thinks Putin has a point and sanctions should be ended:

"Without Russia there is no stability in Europe. And therefore it is worthwhile to take their views seriously. Putin's outrage over the stationing of NATO troups and weapon systems at Russia's western border is justified."

Ohne Russland gebe es keine Stabilität in Europa. "Dann lohnt es sich natürlich, auch das ernst zu nehmen, was die Repräsentanten an Auffassung haben", sagte Genscher. Die Empörung Putins über die Stationierungen von Nato-Truppen und Waffensystemen an der russischen Westgrenze sei berechtigt.

http://www.zeit.de/politik/2014-09/hand-dietrich-genscher-putin-russland-ukraine

"Putin is a man with a clear goal in mind: to create a position that has no longer anything to do with Jelzin's position of weakness. There is no stability in Europe without Russia - and especially not against Russia."

Putin ist ein Mann, der eine klare Zielsetzung hat, eine Position zu schaffen, die nichts mehr zu tun hat mit der Schwächeposition Jelzins", sagte er. "Es gibt in Europa keine Stabilität ohne Russland - und erst recht nicht gegen Russland."

http://www.huffingtonpost.de/2014/09/18/genscher-putin-russland_n_5841078.html

[Benton D Struckcheon]

12. Finland and Sweden aren't members of NATO.

Why are Russian planes invading their airspace?

Ukraine isn't a member.
Georgia isn't.
Moldova isn't.

Russia has invaded all three countries.
Take your excuses to someone more gullible. I ain't buying.

[Duckhunter935]

13. thank you

The west has not invaded several European countries like Russia has. Ukraine was not even being really looked at to join NATO.

[ballyhoo]

28. Oh,yes, the West are such angels...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/list-of-countries-the-usa-has-bombed-since-the-end-of-world-war-ii/24626

[Duckhunter935]

33. and how many have we annexed

and occupied all or parts of and made them part of the USA?

[ballyhoo]

34. We didn't want to annex them. Just appropriate

their assets. How many Crimeans has Russia killed? They're all dancing in the streets so it's hard to draw a bead on them, I know...

[Duckhunter935]

36. The Crimean Tartar population is sure jumping for joy I am sure

Deported from their homeland once by Russia and it looks like it is happening again.

Crimean Tatar National Assembly building emptied and then closed down

The building that is located in Simferopol, which is called “Akmescit” by the Tatars, was raided by some Russian police and soldiers on Sept. 16. Those Russian security forces, whose faces were covered according to the media reports, searched the building for 12 hours. One day after the raid, federal court officials came to the building and warned the Crimean Tatar National Assembly members that the building would be closed down. Those officials gave time to Crimean Tatar National Assembly members for empting the building.

After this warning, the members of Crimean Tatar National Assembly decided to empty the building.

According to QHA (Crimean news agency) report, the Crimean Tatar National Assembly members emptied the building and started to wait for the federal court officials to close down the building on Sept. 19 as scheduled earlier by the officials. However, those federal court officials did not show up at the planned time. Thus, the Crimean Tatar National Assembly members had to close down the building themselves.

http://www.todayszaman.com/latest-news_crimean-tatar-national-assembly-building-emptied-and-then-closed-down_359343.html

The new rulers of Crimea banned the head of the Mejlis, Renat Chubarov, and its former head, Mustafa Dzhemilev, from entry.

There are also cases of human rights abuses against Crimean Tatars, including one murder. On the eve of the referendum of March 16 [2014], Reshat Ametov, a 39-year-old Crimean Tatar man, was having a picket in Simferopol when he was abducted by men in military uniform and later found slain. No suspects have been identified, to the anger of Crimean Tatars, who don’t think the case will be solved.

http://unpo.org/article/17413

[ballyhoo]

40. All 12.1 per cent of them? The major let them ALL vote.

[Duckhunter935]

42. and now they are being slowly deported again

Nice being the minority that Russia already deported once. But it is only 12% right. That is all well and fine for you. You do know that a lot did not vote in protest to voting under Russian guns.

On March 15, a day before the so-called referendum on the status of Crimea, a 39-year-old Tatar named Reshat Ametov was found dead after missing for several days. His body carried clear signs of torture: His head was wrapped with Scotch tape, and his legs were shackled.

His family said he had participated in protests against the seizure of the regional parliament by an unknown armed group, which Russian President Vladimir Putin later admitted was a Russian special forces unit. Police loyal to Moscow registered his cause of death as a traffic accident, but almost all Crimean Tatars heard the signal: Disloyalty to Russia would come at a price.

On March 31, a 14-year-old Tatar boy was beaten up by two Russian passers-by for speaking on the phone in the Tatar language. The incident occurred in the wake of calls by some Russians to discourage the use of the Tatar language and deport them again.

On May 6, a member of the Crimean Tatars' self-governing body was beaten by Russian "samooborona" militants in Simferopol after they stopped his car and demanded to see his documents. He refused to follow their orders, arguing that they were an illegal armed group, acting on behalf of Crimea's new rulers and using intimidation tactics to frighten and subdue their opponents.

More recently, veteran Crimean Tatar leader Mustafa Dzemilev, a Soviet-era dissident who spent 15 years in prison and survived several hunger strikes, was twice denied entry to Crimea. Again, Russian "self-defence groups" prevented him from returning home.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/05/crimean-tatars-embrace-russia-20145135423720401.html

[ballyhoo]

44. Okay, Duck, valid point. But in a Democracy

whoever wins the election wins. It's not like here, where 3-4 per cent of the population can make decisions for the rest of it. I understand Disloyalty but Shit Happens, particularly these days. I suggest you quit dwelling on the done deals and look how to stop the next annexation by Russia. Putin is looking for buffers, which as leader he should be doing. Beyond that, I won't go along with it either.

[NuclearDem]

46. Alright, you don't get to call it a democracy

when your previous post involves the phrase "the Major let them vote."

[Duckhunter935]

48. That is kind of funny

They sure let them vote in the east

Democracy in action

[ballyhoo]

49. The major is the head of their democracy. He did not exclude

anyone from voting. Not interested in playing word salad.

[Duckhunter935]

47. I am also sure the Ukrainian minority

in the east will be treated just peachy by the people that took over by force and had democratic elections. That's right, they have not had them like the Ukrainians have had. They are even having democratic parliamentary elections her very shortly and will have international observers just like they had for the presidential election. In the east, they just appointed themselves, democracy in action.

In a democracy the minority rights are protected.

[reorg]

14. You must be better qualified than Genscher, obviously -

the longest serving Foreign Minister in recent history, who was involved in all the negotiations at the time.

He says the West reneged on its promise not to extend NATO. He says Putin has a point.

Perhaps it would be better to listen to Russia's representatives instead of cooperating with fascists just to pull Ukraine into the Western camp.

[geek tragedy]

18. "cooperating with fascist" no they aren't cooperating with the only real fascists

here, Putin and his fellow gangster, mafia fascists in Moscow.

The only promise that counts in international relations is a treaty. And Russia has shown that it is more than willing to break treaties on a whim.

Also, note that the Soviet Union does not exist and has no legal capacity. So what they understood to be a promise is irrelevant.

The Russian government complaining about broken promises and lies is like a slug complaining about slime.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

29. You could try dealing with the facts I posted above.

One more time: Finland, Sweden, Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine aren't members of NATO. So, forget your appeal to authority and posting of whacked images in your pathetic attempt to dodge facts, and deal with facts: Russia is the only one flying military planes into the airspace of its neighbors unprovoked. Its the only one to annex and invade its neighbors. No one else is doing this in its part of the world except Russia. All the excuses and stupid images in the world aren't going to cover that up.

[reorg]

31. You could try to deal with the question of security in Europe

which is currently being threatened by US interference and has been for a while by NATOs constant extension towards east in breach of promises made when the Soviet Union withdrew their troops.

Russia's legitimate concerns have not only been ignored by the West, they even went so far as to come up with the dumbest lies as to why a new missile shield in Eastern Europe had to be built, namely to prevent:

"future inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM) threats to the United States from the Middle East."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_missile_defence_system

[Benton D Struckcheon]

37. Really?

So, Russia flies planes three times into Finnish airspace without permission, but the US is the threat.
They kidnap an Estonian citizen, but the US is the threat.
They seize a Lithuanian fishing boat, but the US is the threat.
They fly military planes without permission into Swedish airspace, but the US is the threat.
They annex another country's territory illegally, but the US is the threat.
They invade Ukraine, but the US is the threat.
They invade Georgia, but the US is the threat.

It takes the ability to ignore truly overwhelming evidence, not of words, but of Russian deeds, to consider the US the threat to European security.

[Duckhunter935]

45. Sometimes I just have to hit my head

[reorg]

69. Does Russia encircle the US with military bases?

The Russians haven't invaded anywhere. Russia supported and protected the South Ossetians when they were brutally attacked on behalf of a Georgian nutcase who is currently (in the US) on the run from the police, someone who had come to power under more than dubious circumstances. And Russia let Crimea join their Federation, following the wishes of the overwhelmingly Russian population of Crimea and the threat posed by the fascist takeover in Kiev.

In the years prior to these actions, Russia had always been a strong defender of the principle of state souvereignty. Over and over they had warned that US and NATO actions violating this principle were to have consequences at some point. Actually, only a few months prior to Georgia's attack on South Ossetia, Russia once again warned that acknowledging the independence of Kosovo against Serbia's objections would set a dangerous precedent. And that it would be remembered. The US didn't care, recognized Kosovo as they had intended from the getgo and most of the international community followed suit. Russia took the consequences.

Their voice had been ignored during the entire Kosovo crisis. The "humanitarian intervention" had been carried out in violation of international law. Obviously, if certain countries felt if it was justified and in their interest to act, they would no longer seek UNSC resolutions. They would not just invade, they would unilaterally recognize seceding states as independent to boot. When Russia warned that this precedent would have consequences, it was generally understood that they now might act in a similar manner in the case of South Ossetia. So, when Georgia invaded, with a little help from their mercenary friends, the Russians were on watch and intervened. The South Ossetians were happy. Likewise in Ukraine - after the unconstitutional coup in Kiev, Russia protected the Russian speaking majority and their own interests in Crimea by allowing them to join peacefully. No blood was shed, it was a perfect solution for everybody.

Now, as we all know, the disrespect for international law by "the West" did not stop with "humanitarian intervention". And even if a UNSC mandate is sought, we seem to extend it at will. The Russians would be utter fools not to take into account our greed for resources and disrespect for the sovereignty of states even when it comes to Russia itself. Naturally, they feel threatened by NATO's eastward extension and the construction of missile shields which might in the not too distant future enable the US to actually engage in direct, violent aggression towards Russia without fear of repercussions in their homeland. If the US continue to disregard this justified and legitimate concern by the Russians, tensions will increase and it will be first and foremost the Europeans who will suffer the consequences. That is where the danger for European security lies, and also for their well-being, as long as this war of sanctions continues.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

73. Stopped reading after the first paragraph.

You either acknowledge the actual facts of the real world, or you don't. You don't. Ideology <> facts. You're on ignore.

[reorg]

76. It makes me sad

that you would only allow select "facts" into the construction of your world which seems to have a very restricted time horizon.

Not even the faintest attempt at rebuttal? I was curious how you would wriggle your way out of it and I guess that question is answered now

[Duckhunter935]

84. what a croc

after Russia invaded blockaded the Ukraine navel vessels breaking international law and the Budapest agreement. Under military rule, they were allowed to vote but one of the options was never to remain part of Ukraine, only join Russia or be autonomous. It was not observed by international observers like the election of the Ukrainian President and will be for the new elections for the Parliament. The east has had no elections and the leaders just appoint themselves, how democratic.

And another falsehood put out is the "coup". The previous President was relieved from his position after fleeing the country by the democratically elected Parliament and the included the former President's own party voting to remove him. He took days to pack and take his expensive art and treasure with him.

It is very hard to take that seriously and with so many outright falsehoods I can not.

[meMeMEEEE]

90. BS

'following the wishes of the overwhelmingly Russian population of Crimea' - I wasn't aware there was a referendum allowing the population of Crimea to express their will in a manner free of duress, care to back that up?

'No blood was shed, it was a perfect solution for everybody' - how is that true given that Stanislav Karachevsky, a Ukrainian soldier has been killed by the Russian military in early April?

[meMeMEEEE]

86. Why are you posting a fake picture to support your point?

It is from filming a movie back in 2011, here's a link

http://www.mediaport.ua/news/city/77590/zavtra_na_symkah_filma_ojidayut_sergeya_bezrukova

[reorg]

92. I did?

Are you denying that the current Ukrainian government is cooperating with fascists?

[meMeMEEEE]

93. Nice attempt to deflect

I am happy to carry on exposing your trash as soon as you respond to my question

why did YOU post a fake pic on this Board?

[reorg]

94. From the cooperation with fascists in Ukraine?

Perhaps you like this image of stupid, violent Neonazi thugs in Ukraine better:

[meMeMEEEE]

95. sorry, your credibility's gone, no more pics please

Now,

I give you exhibit A: the latest set of elections (May 2014): svoboda + right sector (nationalists) = 1.86% of the vote, that's how fascist Ukraine is (want to compare that to French?)

what were you saying again?

[reorg]

98. Look far right and look right again

More on the Nazis, this time by anti-Putin, pro-Maidan magazine "Ukrainian Policy". Clearly, they are a major embarrassment for any thinking person.

... After Ukraine’s presidential election in May 2014, many journalists and experts on Ukraine, who highlighted the pathetic results of the two 'official' far-right candidates, Svoboda’s Oleh Tyahnybok (1.16%) and Right Sector’s Dmytro Yarosh (0.70%), completely ignored the strong electoral performance of another presidential candidate, Oleh Lyashko, who obtained 8.32% of the votes and finished third. In his political programme, peppered with 23 exclamation marks, Lyashko presented a textbook example of unabashed populism, while, during his campaign, he postured in a military uniform promising to 'return Crimea to Ukraine!' In the run-up to the presidential election, Lyashko praised militarism and bragged about unlawfully questioning a captured separatist. However, not only have the Ukrainian authorities ignored Lyashko’s criminal actions, but society has largely failed to condemn his behaviour.

Social-National Assembly (SNA)

Lyashko worked with Right Sector extremist elements, namely the Social-National Assembly (SNA); and by spring 2014 had effectively managed to lure them away from Right Sector. The SNA is a neo-Nazi movement, which has always been too extreme for the Right Sector. According to its official documents, its 'nationalism is racial, social, great-power imperialist, anti-systemic (anti-democratic and anti-capitalist), self-sufficient, militant and uncompromising'. Its ideology 'builds on maximalist attitudes, national and racial egoism,' while glorifying the Ukrainian nation as part of the 'White Race.'

Lyashko's Radical Party nominated several SNA members as candidates in the May 2014 Kyiv city council elections: Oleh Odnorozhenko (its ideologue), Ihor Mosychuk, Ihor Kryvoruchko, and Volodymyr Shpara. It seems plausible to suggest that SNA members will also be included in Lyashko’s party list in the early parliamentary elections possibly taking place in autumn 2014.

The SNA was also behind the formation of the Azov battalion, a volunteer auxiliary police unit that was armed by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine as part of the Anti-Terrorist Operation (ATO) launched against the (pro-)Russia separatists in Eastern Ukraine. The Azov battalion does not consist solely of SNA members (although there are unverified reports that all the volunteers are required to sign up to the SNA before joining the battalion), but the SNA leader Andriy Biletsky is its commander, with Mosychuk as his deputy. The battalion includes members of Misanthropic Division, an international neo-Nazi movement, whose Ukrainian 'branch' – mostly based in Kharkiv – is affiliated with the SNA. The Division considers that, rather than liberating Eastern Ukraine from illiberal and undemocratic (pro-)Russia separatists, their 'black squadrons are fighting in the ranks of the pagan battalion Azov against the residues of modern society represented by khachi [racist slur for natives of the Caucasus region], chavs, communists, liberals, Asians and other Untermenschen.’ ...

http://ukrainianpolicy.com/look-far-right-and-look-right-again/

[Duckhunter935]

101. so you have to resort to posting fake pictures?

That is pretty low. Can you explain why?

[reorg]

103. What do you mean? How is this picture "fake"?

It's a nice illustration of the point I was making:

Perhaps it would be better to listen to Russia's representatives instead of cooperating with fascists just to pull Ukraine into the Western camp.

I pointed out that Genscher, the longest serving Foreign Minister in recent history, who was involved in all the negotiations with Gorbachev and his successor about the withdrawal of troops, says the West reneged on its promise not to extend NATO to the east.

He says Putin has a point. He says we should end sanctions and listen and talk to Putin instead.

Genscher is not the first and not the only highly qualified and knowledgable German expert to say that. Pretty much all former top politicians who can now freely speak their minds agree.

[Duckhunter935]

105. "It's a nice illustration of the point I was making:"

Yes "fake" as it has it is not part of this government as you are passing it off as.
why did you need to use a picture unrelated from a movie and not give credit where it came from? By omission, you tried to pass this off as a current Ukraine real photo. You have been caught and should really feel badly. You just keep digging deeper. You might want to stop.

[meMeMEEEE]

107. fake as in 'not representative of the actual situation on the ground'

They simply do not have Nazi flags flying from the buildings next to the Ukrainian ones

The reason why I am fuming is that this crap is precisely why the war is happening and people are dying

Putin created a lie about Nazis in Ukraine threatening ethnic Russians, he is spreading it at home and has a strong backing domestically, the news in Russia currently are just beyond delusional. He needs Ukraine to fail, otherwise Russians will see it as an example and kick him out. Hence, Crimea and the manufactured crisis in the East. If Russians actually had a clue about what is genuinely happening in Ukraine, they would not support him and the fighting would have been over by now. As he does not have any facts to operate with, he is resorting to lies, like the picture above and a million other things

Needless to say, when I see those posted on DU, I get upset

As for your point, Ukraine is a sovereign state, if it wants to (as in, if the majority of Ukrainins) join NATO, it should be free to do so, why should Russia have a say in the matter?

[Iterate]

91. More yellowcake: the pic you posted is from a 2011 movie set.

:large

https://twitter.com/Brown_Moses/status/513449445506449409/photo/1
Russian Mission in Geneva @mission_russian using photos from film sets as anti-Ukrainian propaganda pic.twitter.com/25kBRoZ1Cj

So much for the veracity of "Russia's representatives".

[reorg]

97. a reference to Ukrainian cooperation with fascism

an image from a movie reminiscing that very topic in the past ... perhaps we should find this movie and watch it.

[meMeMEEEE]

100. nope

It's about a bunch of Nazis shooting up a bunch of Ukrainians after they lost a soccer game

Just remove that picture, vatniks from Geneva that posted it originally already took theirs down..

[Duckhunter935]

102. Time for you to give credit to the source and apologize

and not try and pass of fake items as truth. You did not and that is a major blow to any credibility that you ever had here. When caught you double down and do not apologize or give credit to the original source.

[reorg]

104. Please, stop deflecting from the discussion

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5566886

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5566689

[Duckhunter935]

106. well since you used a fake

photo without attribution I think you really changed the discussion and now you do not care for that direction.

[reorg]

108. unlike the Ukrainian intelligence service

I did not use the picture to "prove" something, my friend.

If you don't like the illustration, well, that's too bad. To remind you once again of the point it illustrates:

The Western media is seeking to downplay the prominent role of fascists in the new Ukrainian government. Several of the regime’s ministries are headed by members of the far-right Svoboda party, and the militias of the neo-fascist Right Sector are active in violently repressing resistance in the east of the country.

Both Svoboda and Right Sector played a crucial role in the February 22 coup in Kiev, which was strongly backed by Berlin and Washington. This is no coincidence. The close collaboration of Germany and the US with Ukrainian fascists has a long history, reaching back over the last hundred years. ...

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/06/09/fasc-j09.html

Now, here's some proof you may like better:

White supremacist banners and Confederate flags were draped inside Kiev’s occupied City Hall, and demonstrators have hoisted Nazi SS and white power symbols over a toppled memorial to V.I. Lenin. After Yanukovich fled his palatial estate by helicopter, EuroMaidan protesters destroyed a memorial to Ukrainians who died battling German occupation during World War II. Sieg heil salutes and the Nazi Wolfsangel symbol have become an increasingly common site in Maidan Square, and neo-Nazi forces have established “autonomous zones” in and around Kiev.

[Duckhunter935]

109. And they have had democratic elections

And the far right did very badly. Guess what now they are having democratic elections for the parliament also. They will also do badly I suspect. These elections will be monitored by many different international observers and like the presidential elections will be found free and fair by those observers. That is unlike the democratically elected officials in the east that just appointed themselves. I too can find pictures and videos but I do not have to pass off a staged movie picture as real life.

If you are not scared of the outcome you let people vote like the government of Ukraine did and not under armed invasion.
?1401041362

Like the confederate flag they adopted

[ballyhoo]

26. It's called reconnaissance. Have to lay the vectors.

[geek tragedy]

16. There is no treaty promising Russia dominion over Poland and the Baltics.

There is stability in Europe when the feral fascist state in Moscow is back in its cage. NATO is essential for that.

[reorg]

21. Current US policy is to bring instability to Europe

Last edited Sat Sep 20, 2014, 09:08 PM - Edit history (1)

The sanctions are mostly hurting the poor European states. Europe has no interest to prevent South Stream or to get into any conflict with Russia. Least of all over NATO. That's just a game by certain factions in the US who would hate to see Europe including Russia to prosper.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017215337

[geek tragedy]

22. That nonsense may play in Moscow and amongst those who long for Erich Honecker's tenure

in office.

But everywhere else it will get you laughed at. Russia couldn't win a popularity contest against the ebola virus inside actual Europe (note that Russia is not part of Europe--Canada has a better argument of being part of Europe than Russia).

[reorg]

27. Senior German politicians of all stripes

Social Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives - they are all saying the same, the German industry, the German public. We have no beef with Russia, we want peace in Europe, and we don't want murdering fascists in European governments. Our politicians are still playing nice with big brother while trying to mediate, but these attempts are constantly being undercut. By whom?

Germans want more independence from the United States in security and diplomacy affairs, according to a major survey released on Wednesday, which showed negative attitudes towards the USA have hardened.

The study from the German Marshall Fund (GMF) think-tank showed for the first time in the history of the survey that a majority of Germans wanted their country to take a more independent approach from the United States in security and diplomacy.

According to the 13th Transatlantic Trends survey, 57 percent opted for a more independent approach, up from 17 percent in 2013.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1016&pid=102218

[geek tragedy]

38. Funny that most Germans have a negative view of Russia

and Germany's government isn't buying anything Putin and his cheerleaders are saying.

[reorg]

43. That's not the case

while the massive propaganda by overpaid "Atlantic partnership" stooges has certainly its effects, especially when it comes to demonizing certain dominant figures, the general view of Russia is not negative at all and a large majority believe that in the long term Russia and "the West" will remain partners, according to monthy polls by main TV channel ARD.

Here is another "cheerleader", next to our most senior veteran politicians (who can now freely speak their minds) and best respected journalists:

[geek tragedy]

58. Should I believe Putin's apologists or data?

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/germans-back-tougher-stance-toward-russia-over-ukraine-poll-1407495865?mobile=y

BERLIN—German voters are swinging behind their government's tougher line against Moscow after long being willing to give Russia the benefit of the doubt in its dispute with Ukraine.
An opinion poll published Friday shows Germans widely support the European Union's latest sanctions against Russia and an overwhelming majority view the Kremlin's actions in eastern Ukraine with an increasingly critical eye, with 82% of Germans surveyed saying Russia can't be trusted.

Belligerent, thoroughly dishonest, and culturally backwards (anti-GLBT bigotry is state policy)--not much to like about Russia's fascist regime for Gemans.

[reorg]

63. Genscher (see above) is far from being a "Putin apologist"

and neither are Helmut Schmidt, Willi Wimmer, Helmut Kohl and others who have raised their voice against the propaganda onslaught. I don't "believe" them, I listen to their arguments.

As I said, the general public reacts to what they are being told in the media and no doubt they have been manipulated into "not trusting" the current Russian government, whatever that is supposed to mean. Still, a large majority is not convinced that this is more than a fleeting disturbance in relations, if these polls are to be believed. More interesting is the sudden mood shift against the US which I mentioned, since it occurred without the slightest help of highly paid media propagandists.

[geek tragedy]

77. Yes, you are correct, it is not possible to

rationally distrust a government as well-behaved and honest as Russia's. Only fools doubt Tsar Vladimir's good faith and intentions.

Maybe if you repeat such nonsense enough times you will believe it yourself.

[SkyDaddy7]

35. I think reorg works for Moscow! LOL!

Maybe has a crush on Putin...Something.

[SkyDaddy7]

25. Seriously, WTF?

Putin got you all worked up...You like that guy, huh?

[nationalize the fed]

15. A List of US Foreign Regime Change Actions

The United States has been involved in and assisted in the overthrow of foreign governments (more recently termed "regime change&quot without the overt use of U.S. military force. Often, such operations are tasked to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

Regime change has been attempted through direct involvement of U.S. operatives, the funding and training of insurgency groups within these countries, anti-regime propaganda campaigns, coups d'état, and other activities usually conducted as operations by the CIA. The United States has also accomplished regime change by direct military action, such as following the U.S. invasion of Panama in 1989 and the U.S.-led military invasion of Iraq in 2003

1 Prior to Cold War

1.1 Russia

2 During the Cold War

2.1 Communist states 1944–89
2.2 Syria 1949
2.3 Iran 1953
2.4 Guatemala 1954
2.5 Tibet 1955–70s
2.6 Indonesia 1958
2.7 Cuba 1959
2.8 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960–65
2.9 Iraq 1960–63
2.10 Dominican Republic 1961
2.11 South Vietnam 1963
2.12 Brazil 1964
2.13 Ghana 1966
2.14 Chile 1970–73

9/11/73- Presidential Palace Bombed

2.15 Argentina 1976
2.16 Afghanistan 1979–89
2.17 Turkey 1980
2.18 Poland 1980–81
2.19 Nicaragua 1981–90
2.19.1 Destablization through CIA assets
2.19.2 Arming the Contras
2.20 Cambodia 1980–95
2.21 Angola 1980s

3 Since the end of the Cold War

3.1 Iraq 1992–96
3.2 Afghanistan 2001
3.3 Venezuela 2002
3.4 Iraq 2002–03
3.5 Haiti 2004
3.6 Gaza Strip 2006–present
3.7 Somalia 2006–07
3.8 Iran 2005–present
3.9 Libya 2011
3.10 Syria 2012–present
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

The US has no moral authority to throw around when it comes to "provocations"

[geek tragedy]

17. red herring. Russia is not above criticism. thanks for the logical fallacy though nt

[freshwest]

20. Well, you know the Russians only annexed all those countries for their own good, LOL.

[NuclearDem]

19. Soviet propaganda was always fond of the tu quoque fallacy.

Glad to see some things never change.

[rpannier]

23. If I made a list dating back as far as you did abour Russia/USSR it would also be quite

extensive

It's a nice try though

[Purveyor]

52. Post it then...not just "If I made a list". eom

[joshcryer]

54. Easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_occupations_by_the_Soviet_Union

The US did its crap clandestinely with coups, Russia just occupied.

[Purveyor]

51. Oh 'tut-tut', why must you muddle the meme of the day? Thank you for posting, indeed.

[treestar]

82. There are so many of them it makes me question

your assumption that every single one of them was wrong, bad, provoking, etc.

Also none of that is anything Russia would not do.

[FlatStanley]

24. Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen.

Potayto, potahto.

[kardonb]

30. why?

For a while now , I have been thinking thinking that Comrade Putin is going mental . He just wants to see how far he can go before the rest of the world will put a stop to his shenanigans .
Sending "humanitarian aid " to the Ukraine is a big fat lie ; truth is , he is sending weapons and ammo to the pro- Russian rebels .

Put your thumb and forefinger together ; the distance between them is how far you can trust Mr. Putin .

[Exultant Democracy]

32. As far as I can see it is none of my business, and the US should definitely stay out of it.

[SidDithers]

39. Things you won't read at RT...nt

Sid

[AngryAmish]

41. Russia considers herself entirely justified

For a host of historical reasons (Tartar Yolk, Operation Barbarossa, dealing with Chechneyans) Russians realize disaster is always near. They have no borders of defense other than depth. Expand or die. Nevermind that they are dying otherwise....

So who lives there after Russia leaves? Chinese are ill suited.

[MattSh]

50. This happens all the time...

The USA does it, NATO does it, Russia does it, China does it...

The real question who told the lapdog media to start reporting now. Somebody sees a chance to make some big money off of this, no doubt...

AND a lot of those sources are pretty shit.

[Duckhunter935]

56. so where did we invade and occupy

and then annex land to the USA?

[Warren Stupidity]

64. texas california new mexico

[Duckhunter935]

66. so you have to go back over 100 years

How about Russia? two months? So who is the threat?

[Warren Stupidity]

68. We currently have nearly 1000 military bases outside of our territory.

We have the only deep water fleets on the planet. We are currently fighting wars in at least half a dozen nations not anywhere hear our own borders.

I give up, who is the threat?

[Duckhunter935]

71. can you list those bases

Lets see what sizes some of them are

In any case, the Defense Department every year publishes a list of military facilities in the United States and around the world. As of Sept. 30, 2010, the DOD list shows a list of 611 military facilities around the world (not counting war zones), though only 20 are listed as “large sites,” which means a replacement value of more than $1.74 billion.

Most of these — 549 — are small sites, sometimes very, very small.

In fact, some sites appear to be double-counted. There is Spangdahlem Air Force base in Germany, which houses the 52nd Fighter Wing and is counted as a large site. But a separate “base” on the list is the sprawling Spangdahlem Waste Annex, all of three acres, with four buildings totaling 6,500 square feet.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/ron-pauls-strange-claim-about-bases-and-troops-overseas/2012/02/08/gIQApZpqzQ_blog.html


so Russia, England, France, China, Australia and others do not have deep water navel vessels.

List these wars

[EX500rider]

79. Nice find!

As evidence of the United States occupying “so many countries” or the “all this money” spent on the military, Paul’s statistics barely pass the laugh test. He has managed to turn small contingents of Marine guards into occupying armies and waste dumps into military bases. A more accurate way to treat this data would be to say that the United States has 20 major bases around the world, not counting the war in Afghanistan, with major concentrations of troops in 11 countries.

[Duckhunter935]

81. Thanks

A little research dispels a lot of the noise people think is true as they read it on the internet. Then when called on it they cannot source it. I have seen with my own eyes how much we have drawn down in Germany.

[geek tragedy]

59. Those sources are golden compare to the Vineyard saker

which Putin's Jew-hating supporters love to cite.

[Scootaloo]

53. So let's blow all their shit to fuck n/t

[Benton D Struckcheon]

88. Please point to where I said that.

If not, I expect an apology for this pointless ad hominem.

[Scootaloo]

96. First off, it's not ad hominem

Ad hominem is when an argument or statement is dismissed or disregarded due to a topically irrelevant quality of the speaker or source. It's a form of genetic fallacy.

Second, my words are my words, and were not attributed to you.

[Cha]

55. i see the usual suspects.. "But, But, But, the USA-Leave Russia Alone!!!111" Like two wrongs make

it okay for Russia to take over other countries. Distract Distract Distract.. that Putin shite don't fly.

[eridani]

57. In 1989 they did something that the US has yet to do

Namely,withdraw its army from a bunch of neighboring states. The US still has 800+ military bases around the world.

[geek tragedy]

60. None of which are there against the will

of the host government. When asked to leave the US does-- see eg the Philippines.

It caused a brief panic in S Korea when the US floated the idea of withdrawing its troops.

[reorg]

70. LOL!

[Duckhunter935]

72. wow what a snappy comeback

I guess since the facts back him up. Lets here some facts to rebut that statement.

[reorg]

75. They are leaving! They are leaving!

They have been "leaving" the Philippines for like decades and when they were finally, almost, gone, they come back with a bang:

http://blogs.wsj.com/searealtime/2014/04/28/5-philippine-bases-where-the-u-s-military-will-look-to-gain-a-footing/

(The observant reader might remember that military "cooperation" first started again directly after the new "terrorist threat" was discovered in 2001.)

That is apparently how it looks like when the US are "leaving":



40,000 troops, operating illegal wars from German territory in housing provided for free. Whenever there is need for construction, Germany pays two thirds of the price. Did Germany ever "ask" for the US to stay ever since they arrived some 70 years ago? I think not. The current NATO arrangement is just the better deal vis-a-vis outright occupation.

[geek tragedy]

78. Has Germany ever asked the US to abandon

its military bases?

The only occupation of Germany was directed from Moscow.

[Duckhunter935]

80. seems like they are asking us back

Now, the Philippines is engaged in territorial wrangles with China and is asking the Americans it booted out to come back.

http://blogs.wsj.com/searealtime/2014/04/28/5-philippine-bases-where-the-u-s-military-will-look-to-gain-a-footing/

Closing of bases in Mannheim ends special relationship between Germans, U.S. troops
http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/germany/closing-of-bases-in-mannheim-ends-special-relationship-between-germans-u-s-troops-1.144258
US Army says farewell to Schweinfurt

The simple ceremony was conducted at the Schweinfurt Army garrison for the final time on Friday, as what remained of the base’s facilities and grounds were officially turned over to the German government.

http://www.stripes.com/news/us-army-says-farewell-to-schweinfurt-1.304017

Fond memories and some tears as US Army leaves Bamberg

But soldiers who were in Bamberg Friday to watch as the Army closed a door on a piece of its history said the reason they love the place is because of the people.

http://www.stripes.com/news/fond-memories-and-some-tears-as-us-army-leaves-bamberg-1.302834

Americans leave their hearts in Heidelberg

Heidelberg is seeing the Americans off in style, bringing to an end a relationship which began in 1945 when US troops entered the city and occupied a Wehrmacht base, today known as Campbell Barracks, on its southern outskirts.

http://www.thelocal.de/20130604/50091

Darmstadt garrison bids Germany farewell

With a lump in the throat and the gift of an American flag to this city's lord mayor, U.S. Army Garrison Darmstadt officials ended six decades of service for the installation at its inactivation ceremony Aug. 5.

A strong turnout of former employees and retirees - some of whom had traveled considerable distances to attend - joined the garrison's Soldiers and civilians at Cambrai-Fritsch Kaserne to pay their respects.

The crowd dwarfed two small troop details - one American and one German - of Soldiers from the garrison's Headquarters and Headquarters Detachment and the Bundeswehr's Versorgungs-und Instandsetzungszentrum (Supply and Maintenance Center).

Under a gorgeous blue sky, and to the accompaniment of music by the U.S. Army Europe Band, members of USAF Darmstadt cased the organization's colors for the last time.

http://www.army.mil/article/11482/darmstadt-garrison-bids-germany-farewell/

Old but a very good read, start of the drawdown
http://www.bicc.de/fileadmin/Dateien/Publications/reports/report4/report4.pdf

Germany base closure dates
Base closings

Department of Defense officials on Wednesday announced a timeline for the closure of several bases and facilities at communities in Germany:

Fiscal 2007

Mannheim
Turley Barracks

Fiscal 2008

Büdingen
Armstrong Barracks
Armstrong Village Family Housing
Büdingen Ammunition Area
Büdingen Army Heliport
Tiergarten Training Area

Gelnhausen
Coleman Village Family Housing

Fiscal 2009

Darmstadt **
AG Publishing and Training Aids Center
Bensheim Maintenance & Supply Facility
Cambrai Fritsch Kaserne
Ernst Ludwig Kaserne
Griesheim Airfield
Jefferson Village Family Housing
Kelley Barracks
Langen Terrace Family Housing Area
Lincoln Village Family Housing
Messel Small Arms Range
Santa Barbara Village Family Housing

Hanau
Argonner Kaserne
Cardwell Village Family Housing
Campo Pond Training Area
Fliegerhorst Airfield Kaserne
Grossauheim Kaserne
Hutier Kaserne
New Argonner Family Housing
Pioneer Kaserne
Pioneer Village Family Housing
Wolfgang Kaserne
Yorkhof Kaserne

http://www.stripes.com/news/dod-lists-closing-dates-for-31-germany-bases-1.66382

Yes the USA was quite a threat to Russia as it been closing bases in Germany and Europe for the last 25 years.

[reorg]

89. I grew up between some of those bases mentioned

and have followed these developments whenever visiting my relatives who still live there. We moved freely about these villages, crossed daily the Barracks area on our way to school even though it was restricted - the sentries didn't mind most of the time. After some ten years of US troops "leaving", the situation drastically changed. Huge fences were erected around every single village and compound. Although increasingly depopulated for years, they had become no-go areas for Germans. I am glad that now, finally, after 25 years of "leaving", the troops have finally relocated out of my sight. Which doesn't mean they're not still in Germany, look at the map in my previous post, that's where they are now.

The Russians left between 1990 and 1994



The Americans restructured their forces and relocated, a process that started in 1990 and is still ongoing. The airbase in Frankfurt, of central importance for all US military activities in the Middle East, was closed down a few years ago, but not before the airbase in Ramstein had been rebuilt to accomodate large transport planes so that the Frankfurt airport was no longer needed.



Right now they are still in Darmstadt-Griesheim, a seemingly innocuous and comparatively tiny place where the NSA is collecting our personal communication data. Soon the NSA will move to Wiesbaden-Erbenheim into nice, new buildings constructed to better suit their nefarious purpose.

U.S. Army Garrison Wiesbaden spokeswoman Anemone Rueger said the consolidation of USAREUR headquarters with its military intelligence and signal assets at Wiesbaden allows for the closure of more than 40 sites in Heidelberg, Mannheim and Darmstadt and will save about $112 million in annual operating costs.

http://www.stripes.com/news/wiesbaden-military-community-spotlights-completed-projects-1.180339

[Duckhunter935]

61. and how many contries do we take by force and run?

we do not and we do leave when asked. When was the last time the USA invaded and occupied a country or part of a country and made it a part of the USA by annexation?

We are also leaving Europe. I was in Germany in 90, you could not go 5 miles on the autobahn without seeing an American base sign. I was there last year and that is not true anymore. Most bases have been closed.

US Army says farewell to Schweinfurt

Schweinfurt’s closing is the latest piece of the U.S. military’s realignment in Europe, aimed at significantly reducing and consolidating America’s footprint across the continent. Its closure follows last week’s shuttering of the Bamberg military base and puts an end to 70 years of American operations in the area.

http://www.stripes.com/news/us-army-says-farewell-to-schweinfurt-1.304017

U.S. Troops To Leave Kyrgyzstan's Manas Base In July

Biswal added that Washington respected Kyrgyzstan's decision to close the center.

The center has been used as a transit base for troops and supplies going to or from Afghanistan. It hosted about 1,000 U.S. soldiers, as well as U.S. aircraft.

http://www.rferl.org/content/kyrgyzstan-us-troops-manas-base/25320171.html

Last U.S. troops leave Iraq, ending war

The last convoy of U.S. soldiers pulled out of Iraq on Sunday, ending nearly nine years of war that cost almost 4,500 American and tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, and left a country grappling with political uncertainty.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/18/us-iraq-withdrawal-idUSTRE7BH03320111218

Philippines Orders U.S. to Leave Strategic Navy Base at Subic Bay

The Philippines told the United States today that it must withdraw from the Subic Bay naval base by the end of 1992, ending a vast American military presence that began with the capture of the islands from Spain in 1898.

The decision, which resulted from an impasse in negotiations, follows a year of intense talks between the countries on the fate of American bases in the Philippines. The announcement also comes just three days before President Bush begins a 12-day Asian tour.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/28/world/philippines-orders-us-to-leave-strategic-navy-base-at-subic-bay.html

[Duckhunter935]

62. a little dated but here are the actual numbers

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/04/us/table.military.troops/

Not as many as you would think


another source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments

[treestar]

83. That was not due to being nice

How ridiculous.

[Duckhunter935]

85. source please?

[Benton D Struckcheon]

87. You're right.

But at this point the Baltics are scared and actually want NATO troops on their soil. Sweden and Finland, who are not NATO members, are having their airspace violated for no reason anyone can think of, and are now at the point where they're considering NATO membership. That's not because of anything the US did. So the point is, in fact, irrelevant, and does not address the facts of the current situation in Europe.

[NuclearDem]

110. Because most of those countries had been under illegal occupation for half a century.

And finally told the Moscow to get out.

[Warren Stupidity]

65. Must. Have. More. War.

[Duckhunter935]

67. If Russia had not invaded

there would be no talk of this.

[William769]

74. Kick & recommended.

[99Forever]

99. ...

Just a reminder.