Deputy draws gun on family because of Wal-Mart employee's mistake.

[RandySF]

COMMERCE TOWNSHIP, Mich. (WXYZ) - Levi Stubbs, his wife and teenage daughter were shocked to see Oakland County Sheriff's deputies surrounding their minivan after they just finished some Christmas shopping at Wal-Mart.

Stubbs says a deputy drew his weapon as they were being ordered out of their minivan Tuesday afternoon.

The Stubbs were told that Wal-Mart employees called to report that they had passed several $100 bills that were counterfeit. Turns out the money wasn't counterfeit at all.

“Someone could have been shot. Someone could have been killed over erroneous information," says Stubbs who also told 7 Action News that their teenage daughter seemed to be in such distress after the incident that they considered taking her to the hospital.


http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/oakland_county/walmart-mistake-leads-deputies-to-stop-family-that-store-workers-suspected-passed-counterfeit-bills#ixzz1hERWjgsz

[Logical]

1. Surprised they did not call out the swat team.

[CreekDog]

2. guns pulled over money

and not even a legitimate charge about money.

regardless of what anyone thinks about the police, there's now a smaller chance that the child in the minivan will call the police to help them or in order to get help than there was before this incident.

the deputy in this case, and possibly his training and possibly a pervasive culture that he's a part of is making police work harder and harder each day.

here are innocent people who will never feel as safe around the police as they did before.

that's a huge loss in terms of trust and confidence.

[ellisonz]

6. Guns weren't pulled over money...

...they were pulled because the police officer is trained to react that way because far too many people do pull guns on the police. That's the logic.

I'm not defending the deputy or the store, just explaining why the police are so fearful.

[CreekDog]

7. guns were pulled because the person was accused of using counterfeit money

yes, it is guns over money.

[ellisonz]

9. No.

It's guns over a siege like mentality. 63 police officers have died from gunfire this year, a 15% increase from last year. http://www.odmp.org/search/year/2011?ref=sidebar

Why should it be a surprise that police are increasingly fearful in public interactions?

[Kennah]

10. The numbers tend to go in cycles

There are plenty of past years when there were far fewer cops and many more killed feloniously by gunfire in the line of duty.

[ellisonz]

13. It has less to do with the numbers and more to do with the culture...

...police expect to encounter armed suspects and so they act as if everyone is armed. I've had guns drawn on me by police even when I was obviously not armed. They search everybody for weapons, what does this tell you about the siege mentality?

[Kennah]

15. If that were true, then the rise of concealed carry would cause a rise in police deaths by gunfire

There is nothing further from the truth.

These come from the FBI UCR publication LEOKA. It's Table 27 in the current format.

1987 - 67
1988 - 76
1989 - 57
1990 - 57
1991 - 68
1992 - 54
1993 - 67
1994 - 78
1995 - 62
1996 - 57
1997 - 68
1998 - 58
1999 - 41
2000 - 47
2001 - 61
2002 - 51
2003 - 45
2004 - 54
2005 - 50
2006 - 46
2007 - 56
2008 - 35
2009 - 45
2010 - 55
2011 - 63

[ellisonz]

16. Concealed carry is not really the issue...

It's people with illegally obtained firearms and those carrying without permit.

You're just making my point - that over time the police have come to expect to be shot at and killed. You're not going to win this argument. Please ask a police officer why this officer acted in this manner.

[Kennah]

32. Most cops would call this deputy an asshat

[CreekDog]

11. why don't they just point their guns at everyone at all times

say, when walking down the street.

when taking police reports.

just point that gun in everyone's danged faces.

can't be too careful.

of course, nobody who currently trusts the police will ever talk to them again about anything.

but have it your way, you're very convincing...to somebody.

[ellisonz]

14. When was the last time you were pulled over?

Did the police officer approach with his hand on his gun? That's what they're trained to do. They are trained to assume that everyone is armed because so many people are armed.

"say, when walking down the street. when taking police reports. just point that gun in everyone's danged faces."

Don't be ludicrous; if you doubt the veracity of what I'm telling please ask a police officer about what he would think on a call like this one.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Shh, both of you ARE right

it is the culture... of the specific police department. There is a reason why Oakland area cops are under Federal investigation, in particular Oakland PD... (and it has to do with specific departmental culture)

And it is also training, or lack off. POST standards actually emphasize treating every encounter as if they were the mayor, while watching for it.

But it is also the suspected crime. Property crimes tend to get a more muscular response than other crimes.

[ellisonz]

31. Correct.

Happy Holidays to you

[DCKit]

17. That's it baby. Ease us into fascism with slick excuses.

How much does that brand of lube cost? Or does it pay?

Of those cops killed in the line of duty, how many were killed by suspects, and how many by driving recklessly or doing some other stupid shit?

"Fearful"? I would say paranoid (in many parts of the country). Let's do some more psychological testing before handing someone a gun.

I don't even go out much at night, but I've been "jumped out", falsely arrested, harassed (once after being mugged), intimidated, threatened with arrest for daring to speak up and tortured in a cold cell by DC cops. And I couldn't be any more white without being albino. I grieve for my neighbors of color.

While the "cold cell" story is good, the "jumped out story" is better.

I was walking to the car of a friend one night (20 years ago, in DC). He'd just passed the bar exam, we were just walking, and I was smoking a cigarette. A police car passed us, and I flicked my cigarette on the ground. They slammed into reverse and four HUGE black cops jumped out, guns drawn and demanded we put our hands on top of the nearest car. Two of the cops had their guns pointed at my friends head, so (obviously) I said "Go ahead, shoot a lawyer". The only time I've ever seen a crowd disburse so fast was when someone had explosive diarrhea on a dance floor.

Sell your Santorum somewhere else.

[ellisonz]

18. It's not slick excuses. It's just the fact of what is...Spare me the insults...

...for spreading the facts of why the police do what they do.

There are as many guns as people in this country - record sales this holiday season.

http://charlotte.news14.com/content/top_stories/651422/firearm-sales-hit-record-levels-this-holiday-season

63 so far have been killed by non-accidental hostile gunfire this year alone - 2 yesterday alone. Car fatalities have gone down every year and considering how much they drive that's pretty impressive. Almost twice as many this year have died from gunfire as from car accidents.

http://www.odmp.org/search/year/2011

I don't love the police, I too have been subject to abuse, but I don't deny that they have a very difficult job to do. Would you really want to deal with domestic violence cases or armed robberies?

I'm not diminishing your or my own experiences of police brutality and abuse (no need to go into them, but suffice to say I'm not with them on the drug war), but unless you think there should be no police, you don't have much of a point about why the police are trained to either draw or be ready to draw their weapons in most situations. They often deal with dangerous situations and people.

[DCKit]

20. We're in desperate times, of course the numbers are going to go up.

But 63? How many unarmed civilians were murdered by the PoPo this year?

How many of the "justified" killings were cover-ups?

Why don't DC cops live in DC?

[ellisonz]

21. I think it might be a better tact...

...to complain about the people who flood the streets with handguns and create the paranoia in the first place: that's the real problem.

There aren't accurate national statistics - looking at some of the stories I get get about a 35% rate of unarmed. So guessing that there are perhaps maybe 2-3 thousand police related shootings every year, maybe 1,000 - of whom we have no idea on average what occurred. I don't like it and the police on average want to get better. Not denying there are bad cops at all; they're just a minority that actually go as far as to lie about shootings and plant evidence. You probably can't produce any evidence otherwise - or make a logical argument against that notion.

http://www.chron.com/news/article/One-in-three-police-shootings-involve-unarmed-1651275.php

g. Officers from the best-performing agency in the study shot unarmed subjects 24% of the time. The other agencies had “frequency” scores of nearly 40% or more, with participants from one agency shooting nearly half of the unarmed suspects they confronted in the scenarios. “These distinct differences,” Aveni states, “seem directly attributable to training.

http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/1665473-What-the-new-study-of-shootings-of-unarmed-suspects-means-to-you/

It's a shitty situation all around.

[DCKit]

22. "...the people who flood the streets with handguns and create the paranoia..."

"Fast & Furious"... even FOX agrees.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/05/mexican-lawmakers-want-extradition-for-us-officials-responsible-for-botched/

[ellisonz]

23. ...

Please, stop posting, go to bed.

[Heywood J]

24. In a discussion forum,

we typically don't try to shut up other posters with whom we don't agree. If you don't like the discussion, you can always be the one to leave.

[ellisonz]

25. You're missing part of the context...

...plus it's not a very good point at all since Fast and Furious was designed to expose how gun sellers are exploited by the cartels as a resource for weapons and the whole idea that Holder is responsible for the failure is not entirely accurate and now a popular right-leaning talking point. It is not really that germane to the general point I was making about guns in America.

15 minute earlier this is what he posted: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=2426

I'm sorry I was not clearer...no apology is required.

[whopis01]

27. The police have been doing their share as well

And over 9600 people were killed by the police from 1980 to 2005. That averages over 380 per year. This has increased in recent years.

http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/police/08_toomany.html

[tularetom]

3. IIRC Levi Stubbs was the lead singer for the Four Tops

But I thought he passed away some years ago.

[prepperdad]

4. Such stupidity

Even if counterfeit money was passed, it still no excuse to draw guns those people. It's as if law enforcement have gotten out of control in recent years.



[url]http://www.survivingeconomiccollapse.net[/url]

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. What? No pepper spray?

[rsmith6621]

8. Sue WalMarts ASS

...You know some of this was racially motivated....FUCKHEADS.

[Zalatix]

12. Soon, paying with cash will make you a terrorism suspect.

And it won't be the Sheriff's deputies that come after you then...

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[BadgerKid]

26. The imposition of credit/debit card fees shall not be denied!

[madokie]

19. Walmart has us all on watch when you pull in the drive and until you leave

Walmart is not good for our country

[Enrique]

28. a black family with $100 bills

call the cops!

[ddeclue]

29. Were they "heavily armed" counterfeit counterfeiters?