I grant Ms. Watson's point. Still.

[Recursion]

I agree that the only hopeful future of feminism includes men as agents. That said. The way for men to join the conversation is to turn the space we already dominate more feminist. Not to demand that the space women have carved out for themselves become more masculist.

We don't need entrance to some special clubhouse; we have it.

[MannyGoldstein]

1. If we exclude someone from our clubhouse,

our clubhouse is the poorer for it.

Perhaps there is only one club, and we are all members. We must treat one-another that way.

[Recursion]

2. No, Manny, I don't buy it, and I know you're smarter than that

This isn't a "clubhouse" we're talking about but rather a last refuge.

[Adrahil]

3. Men being involved does not mean....

... That the space becomes more masculinist. Granted, some well-meaning men will have the tedency to "man-splain," but the idea is break down gender role stereotypes. We can't do that in our separate little clubhouses.

[Recursion]

4. I actually like Manny's "clubhouse" comparison

But we really need to explore this and stake it out.

[Adrahil]

5. I'm all ears.

This is an important issue, and I'd love to hear your further thoughts. As a feminist man, I want to be a help, and not a hinderance.

[seabeyond]

17. many many many men support women on du with their voice. every day.

they speak out about the issue, they do not turn to the women and tell them what they need to say, think, how to say, watch the tone, what issues to address. they stand as one in voice. speaking out. we see it repeatedly. many many men have no trouble being a part of a progressive action. it can easily be done.

just as, when gays speak out, i stand. arm in arm, and am a part of THEIR voice.

just as, when blacks speak out, i stand. arm in arm, and am a part of THEIR voice.

[mercuryblues]

20. exactly

t is not I speak for them. It is I speak with them. It is past time to speak against.

[Adrahil]

93. Well said! NT

[avebury]

6. You totally missed the point of her talk.

It had nothing to do with a man giving up his man cave. It is all about all people having equal rights and benefits of society and not being held back solely because of their gender. It is about getting rid of male/female stereotypes.

The real reason why so many are anti-feminist and anti equal rights for women because they realize the next step is granting those same rights to everyone regardless of their sexual preferences and there are a lot of homophobes out there.

[Recursion]

8. Right... and I talked about man giving up his man cave at which line?....

[justiceischeap]

9. OT: Sexual preferences vs. Sexual orientation

I don't have a sexual preference for women but my sexual orientation is pointed at women... meaning, I don't wake up daily and think, "Hmm, today I prefer to be a lesbian. maybe tomorrow I'll prefer to be straight."

[oberliner]

7. Talk about missing the point

The way to join the conversation is to not join the conversation?

That is exactly the opposite of what's needed, and, I daresay, demanded of men.

[jamzrockz]

10. I think feminism should

conduct an autopsy the way the republican party did a review of their party after losing 2 straight presidential election and maybe they will understand why their ideology as it is practiced is being rejected by just about every community out there. The atheist said no to it, the gamers said hell no and the society is general is not impressed.

They need to do some soul searching to figure out why they have the reputation they have.

Please read my sig before alerting

[seabeyond]

13. men, that really have no interest in changing status quo, telling feminists they need to

reflect and change message so they can be heard by the very men that have no desire whatsoever to give up privilege? it is all in the women's tone, right?

the last couple years there has been a huge resurgence of feminism, across the globe actually. the young women, and many young men educated and speaking out. it is getting scary for those groups you mention. they reject? sure. and why would we expect anything less. and i am seeing a huge effort to suggest feminism is on its last dying leg, though that is far from the truth. our young women are vocal, clear, articulate and educated. and they have a platform to speak from. they are, loudly.

that would be the point, i guess, about the extreme desire to shut it down, saying it is dead.

just like du and crazy uncle sight stating it is just a very few hof women. it has never been the few. but there is a strong effort to make it so. any one of these threads have lots of both women and men that have nothing to do with hof speaking out. but al of a sudden they are crammed into the small group of a few, to be able to ignore their voice.

your post suggesting that the outcry around the world, of our young voice be dismissed for the purpose of shutting down forward movement is absurd, and factually incorrect.

[justiceischeap]

14. How many feminists do you actually know?

Early in in the gay rights movement, all people wanted to talk about, it seemed, were the most extreme aspects of the gay community, not realizing that all kinds of gay people made up the gay rights movement.

It's the same thing with feminism and, frankly, comments like yours. You're making the assumption that the problem is the extreme aspects of feminism and not realizing that there are all kinds of feminists and your comment perpetuates that stereotype instead of realizing the problem is within the gaming community or the atheist community.

[enki23]

15. Oh shit, an subset of gamers rejected feminism?

You forgot the Christians! And the Muslims. And the Jews. And the Hindus. And the Buddhists. And so many others. The biggest assholes in each of those don't like feminism either.

What you're saying, then, is that there exist communities whose shittiest, most fucking assholish members "reject" feminism. And we know this because there are big splits in this communities between the assholes and the not-assholes. Therefore, "feminism" should look to the fucking assholes to decide what to do with itself, rather than to the decent humans who say it's doing just fine, thank you, can we have some more please?

What you're saying, then, is that you believe the assholes are the good guys who feminists should look to for inspiration. Which makes you... what?

[LiberalLoner]

44. +1

[JTFrog]

55. Excellent post. n/t

[bettyellen]

57. yep "you believe the assholes are the good guys who feminists should look to for inspiration. " LOL

We hear this all the time. My jaw just drops- does that shit fool anyone?

[Starry Messenger]

96. *Standing ovation*

[mercuryblues]

26. Why yes

feminism is all about asking the men who are against equal rights to begin with, about what they should think, how to verbalize it and when to speak.

How far would the Civil Rights movement have gotten if MLK toned it down for the KKK?

No matter how you look at feminists have this reputation because of people like Limbaugh and the MRA's. It is not feminists fault that people feed on the hate and fear they spew, then regurgitate it at every chance. Many men do speak up, but many also let this go unchecked and unchallenged. Why?

[seabeyond]

30. i am going ot say the demoniation is beyond the mra and limbaughs. it is the fear of change.

it is fear of upsetting the patriarchy that has our roles identified. it is the fear of losing the privilege and entitlement. it is the lack of insight to see, with the loss of the prescribed roles, we are all winners.

that goes way beyond merely the mra and limbaughs. i have a lot of men/boys around me having a tough time giving up that man card. and taking the simple step forward in progressionism. good men. that just will not tear up that card.

women too. they have their own perceived rewards in keeping status quo.

[mercuryblues]

50. yup.

There are *some* who can't see that they are not giving up anything but default status, hatred and fear. It boils down to enjoying the default status, being considered more important because they can grow a beard.

What is feared by equal rights? Not that a woman or minority will earn as much as they do. It is the fear that they will earn as little as the minority. It is seen not as a tide raising all boats, but as their ship sinking. Who really wants to be on a sinking ship? Ultimately their own fears will be self-fulfilled out of stubbornness to not hop on the rising boats.

I get that *some* women enjoy the status quo. It is much easier to go with the flow and not be labeled as the feminazi.

[seabeyond]

52. the dichotomy in my real world, and what frustrate my men/boys so much.

i was not raised as gender, but person. i cannot even figure out what i am suppose to give up or addd, to be a woman. and feminine totally blows my mind in trying to understand what that is.

well, even more so, i did not raise my boys in gender. and never lived my husband in gender. and do not allow with brothers, nephews or father.

so, they have none of the restrictive, binding, imprisoning maleness that so much of society feeds us, to insist on being loved.

they have been able to not live the defined role.

this allows insight

this allows appreciation.
and this allows the win win win

but the PRIVILEGE/ENTITLEMENT of being male is so so so so so.... damn hard getting rid of. as they discuss, especially at 17 and 19 the painful and destruction maleness our society demands of them. as they step out in the real world.

it is all very interesting.

cause

i listen.

[DemocraticWing]

80. The LGBT community has accepted feminism.

So has the socialist movement, which to be fair isn't as important in America as the rest of the world, but still. Pretending that gamers is a large cross-section of the population that any political constituency should pay attention to is laughable.

And who are the atheists who rejected feminism? Are we talking about a male asshole with no power like Richard Dawkins, or is there an atheist pope out there I didn't know about?

[jamzrockz]

81. Let me make it clear

Its not that the gaming community have rejected the idea of feminism, its that they have rejected the feminist movement in its current state. They realized quickly that people like Anita Sarkesian did not have the best interest of gamers, has lied about her love for games and her documentary is filled with cherry picked scenarios and facts taken out of context that did not represent their community. So the men, women, minorities, LGBT in the gaming community essentially told her to find another community to co opt.

I am also a feminist, who happens to believe in equal rights for both men and women. What I am not into is the idea of reversing past wrong by giving women more privileges than men.

[seabeyond]

83. my husband is a gamer as all those that play with him, and none are feminists. they reject

the sexism and misogyny. they do not want it. they do not like it. they do not want to play it in. the readily reject it. they just want to play games in the evening and not deal with the crap.

i disagree with you, hands down.

[jamzrockz]

84. Do you believe

your husband supports equal rights for women? maybe not while playing his video game, but do you think he supports it in real life? If the answer is yes, then he is a feminist. That is really all it takes to be a feminist.

[seabeyond]

85. my republican hiusband is more feminist than most all men on the board and still he does not accept

that label. i both accept and respect that. it is not me to define him.

secondly, we have many progressives that define themselves as feminists all the while hurting women and our cause.

i put little in the stock into a label.

[jamzrockz]

87. You have a repub husband?

Who is not a feminist? I guess opposites do attract . But seriously, yes labels doesn't mean much just as long as you believe in equality. I have said some communities rejected feminism but what they really rejected is the people behind it. The philosophy is still very strong in society except for a few pockets here and there.

How exactly are progressive "hurting women and our cause"?

[seabeyond]

88. yes. i have a repug hubby that voted kerry, and obama twice. and still, he defines himself as repug

as i say, he is more social equality than many progressives deem themselves. it baffles.

really, .... in behavior, not really opposite at all. mostly on same page. the fluidity of life.

my father has voted dem once, obama first term. yet, he raised me as non gender, but a person. not the gender roles. he had the expectation of me as a person, not woman.

and yet. a lifetime republican of 77 yrs.

[jamzrockz]

90. I know I am going

off topic a bit, but that is quite amazing. The few things I heard of him, I wouldn't have guessed he was a republican. Maybe independent but definitely not a republican. I hate to pry into more personal matters, but what kind of republican does he look up to? who was the last republican presidential nominee he supported and voted for? Finally, why does he consider himself a republican?

[seabeyond]

91. he is a gun totin', huntin/fishin', trust fund, catholic conservative.

when i first met him, he wasnt much into being informed. he voted bush first term. he had to start educating himself over the years, as i was telling him what was happening that did not jive with his core beliefs.

like, he has two gay brothers, so he walked from the church. believes in prochoice and womens rights. walked from NRA and ripped up his card. and refused to turn on the news after what he thought was the theft of 2004 election.

katrina turned him. effected him strongly.

[jamzrockz]

94. Good on you

I always pity women who think they can change a man after they have married them but you actually did it. On my end, I have people threatening to leave the GOP because they think they are no "conservative" enough. We need more open minded republicans like your husband.

[seabeyond]

95. he was never a fox news watcher. i think fox news is what put blinders on so many. and it was not

my goal to change him. as i said, he already had the core beliefs.

[ismnotwasm]

86. No need for an alert

But I do suggest you haven't been paying attention to recent history.

Take the word "feminazi" repopularized by Rush Limbaugh and quickly picked up in the era of "shock jocks" To object to blatant sexism was to be prudish or anti-sex, the dialogue was set up as a lose lose. Feminism countered with a "sex positive" movement, one that is still around, but came to focus more on sex workers.

Feminism is very plastic and is constantly evaluating itself. Read the words of a black feminist who feels white feminism is exclusive, and not helpful for AA women, forces white feminists for whom equality is the very lifeblood of feminism to reevaluate--and not always well--but black feminists have a voice and they are going to use it. This is but one example of many.

Feminists, to accomplish their goals need to be uncomfortable from time to time and we are.

But as far as a reputation? We've been polishing that up a bit. The second wave voices are as powerful as ever, the new feminists stand on their words and sacrifice but the thing is, women WANT equality, they may shy away from "labels" or have a poor understanding of what feminism is.


That "reputation" was the result of Rightwing propaganda assholes, it spread to progressives, because it represents change from a direction that can't be controlled. And that frightens people.

[whathehell]

98. Um, if Feminism is so "dead", why are you so concerned about it?

[el_bryanto]

11. That makes sense.

A real discussion is hard to do when one side starts out holding more social and economic power, and in most cases, as well as society as a whole, men have that power.

Bryant

[seabeyond]

12. that was well said recursion. thank you. nt

[dembotoz]

16. many men agree with you please do not shoot them (me)

[seabeyond]

18. yes. many men do. daily. here on du. they do not feel they have a target on their back, as

they stand arm in arm, on the front line, NOT looking over their shoulder.

[Recursion]

39. Do I seem like someone who shoots? (nt)

[madokie]

19. Maybe its the way I was raised

maybe its something I've learned on my own, doesn't matter but I always put the women first. Treat them with the respect they so richly deserve. After all it was a woman who gave me life who nurtured me to make it possible for me to become the man I am today. I don't just treat the women in my life that way I'm that way with all the women.I always feel a little in awe at the strength that women show, day in and day out. My hero's are women.

[Heidi]

36. Thumbs up!

Good morning, madokie!

[Romulox]

21. And exactly how is *THIS OP* not "mansplaining"???? Irony alert! nt

[seabeyond]

22. i do not feel he is addressing feminists and telling them how they are suppose to address issues,

what they are allowed to address, the tone they need to adopt, to address. do you?

[Romulox]

23. Because you *agree* with him, not because he's not a *man*, *explaining*, to *women*...

[gollygee]

25. It looks to me like he's explaining to men. n/t

[Romulox]

28. Nope. I read DU women who disagree with him on the original thread. He's a MANSPLAINER!!!!!

[gollygee]

29. If you read his thread

He uses the word "we," which shows he's talking to other men.

You're having fun manipulating people's words though.

[Romulox]

32. I read it. He's disagreeing with Watson, and "mansplaining" why she's wrong--about feminism! nt

[gollygee]

38. No he isn't.

He seems to agree with Watson, and then starting with the word "still" explains things to the men in the other thread who are misinterpreting her words. Men can contribute without taking over. I agree completely. Emma Watson isn't here to say whether she agrees or not.

His post is a response to that other thread, not to Emma Watson.

[Romulox]

62. It's not his job to interpret a woman's words for her or anybody else. It's textbook. nt

[gollygee]

89. No it isn't "textbook"

She isn't here to explain, and he isn't telling her what she said. He's telling you what his opinion is about what she said. The problem here is that you don't really understand what mansplaining is

[seabeyond]

31. you really are not getting hte concept of mansplaining. what i see you doing is reinforcing

the very wrong thinking that men are not allowed to speak, nor are they allowed to participate. that is what those men on that thread are stating. that is not and never have been the reality. if you would read the thread, you will see the women (me being one) stating clearly, not only do we listen, we embrace the men that stand with us.

[Romulox]

33. Nonsense. You agree with him, and so give him a pass. The definition remains unchanged. nt

[seabeyond]

34. i think you are incorrect. nt

[gollygee]

35. Yeah

Who ever said that every time a man ever said anything he was mansplaining? Mansplaining is a man specifically deciding he is the authority of an issue where he is not the authority, and then explaining something with that assumed sense of authority. It has to include a sense of entitlement to be mansplaining. I see no sense of entitlement in Recursion's OP, and he even clearly is explaining to men.

But he's too busy mansplaining about what mansplaining is. LOL

[seabeyond]

37. in the thread. a man telling me why i am sex negative. why i must accept being called sex negative

and why i am not allowed to challenge or be offended being defined as sex negative.

i thought that an excellent example of mansplaining, as he complained that the word does not exist.

personally, i will repeat, i do not use the term. i certainly understand both the application and definition though.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

24. I dunno.

Did you look between the OP's legs to verify gender before you read it?

Is 'Recursion' a male or female poster?

(Edit - went back and reread, I'm guessing the 'we've' is at least some proof that the poster is male.)

[Romulox]

27. Recursion is a male. I've seen pics. He's explaining. To women! nt

[kcr]

48. If he's a man, how does the "we" mean women?

Not sure how that works.

[Romulox]

63. "We" is inclusive of the entire audience. nt

[kcr]

65. You think the clubhouse includes women?

That explains a lot.

[Recursion]

42. I'm male and have said so before

The other poster is at least aware of that.

[Recursion]

40. The same way your avatar flag is not actually distress (nt)

[Romulox]

64. LOL. It's contempt. Well spotted though, I guess?

Er, you got me?

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. Guys who have opinions on gender relations = mansplainers.

A movement in which this term is a legitimate part of its lexicon has no interest in listening to Ms Watson, and will ultimately prove her right.

She's actually saying two things:
1) men should be involved in the conversation
2) feminism should actually be about equality.

Neither of the above are true about academic feminism or as applied in government policy.

[seabeyond]

66. you are singlehandedly redefining mansplain? that is not the definition.

so your posts is disingenuous at best.

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. It's the apparent definition used upthread.

When Recursion offers an opinion on the topic suggested by Watson "men should be involved" he is criticized for mansplaining.

It's actually worse than what I described. The OP is doing exactly what Watson requests. The thing about conversations? They don't always involve people who completely agree with you.

A significant portion of feminism is dedicated to the idea that reconciliation and equality are not only impossible but in fact undesirable.

[seabeyond]

74. using the word "apparent" allows us to understand you are not using the definition but are instead

putting for the effort to redefine the word.

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. Does it need a definition?

For philosophy dedicated to ridding the world of gendered insults, y'all seem pretty motivated to cling to this one.

Personally, I see this as similar to "reductio ad Hitlerium". The first person to use the word "mansplain" or "harpy" in a discussion loses.

[seabeyond]

77. what word is defineless? seriously?

[LostInAnomie]

97. You either want the input of men or you don't.

If more men are supposed to get involved in the cause of feminism, we should probably be allowed to have input. Men shouldn't just have to stand around smiling and nodding.

[Android3.14]

41. The sad curse of prejudice

Those who suffer it are destined to practice it. For some us, we cringe when someone, a member of a group that the culture treated poorly, responds by trying to treat other groups in the same fashion.

I recently saw a film on the KKK in Maine and how they suppressed the Acadian Catholics in the 20th century. In the fight against immigrants in the 21st Century, guess who makes up one of the greatest sources of support for the KKK in Maine this century? Acadians.

I see the OP in a similar light. Sure, men can be feminists, the OP implies, but only if they shut up, do what the other gender says, and pretend they enjoy being treated that way.

The problem, of course, is that for some folks, when a man supports feminism, some see that as a threat.

[gollygee]

43. You're comparing feminists to the KKK

No one minds men SUPPORTING feminism, only men trying to take it over.

Not many feminists are going to expect support from someone who compares feminists wanting to control the message and agenda of feminism with people who support the KKK. You think feminists are treating men the way women have been treated throughout history? Really?

[seabeyond]

45. see. all this is listening. listening to the men we agree with. listening...

to the men we disagree with. and... it is all listening. i came to the conclusion my worse infraction here, is i very much listen. lol.

when i initially read that post, my response was. and please, do not hurt us or our cause, in the name of feminism. you want to stand with feminism? cool. cool cool cool. but, if in the name of feminism you are hurting women or the cause, welll.....

i listen. then i address.

[Android3.14]

51. Put words in your own mouth

Clearly, I'm comparing feminists to other oppressed groups such as the Acadians. Men taking over feminism isn't feminism, and neither is a woman insisting gender equality means men should shut up.

It comes down to a basic question of whether an individual will practice the ideals of feminism. If so, then all individuals are welcome to contribute regardless of their gender.

[gollygee]

53. You're comparing feminists to the Acadians who supported the KKK

Specific men should sometimes shut up, but I don't think anyone has said all men should shut up.

Feminism is specifically a women's movement. Men are welcome to contribute, and a great many do, but they don't usually go into it with a sense of "what's in it for me?"

[Orsino]

46. It's not a question of men joining a feminism discussion, IMO...

...but of men allowing women equal time to bring feminism into many discussions, or to direct some discussion in feminist directions, with equal representation and agency.

That sounds like a way toward equality of opportunity.

[Skidmore]

47. I think her point was to encourage a way forward to embrace

all members of both genders as essentially human. At the bottom of all of this discussion of philosphy and the trappings of culture lies the basic concept of what it means to be a human being given dignity, respect, and equality. For not to be made less by whatever version of "other" that engenders distrust or fear is the first step. What is so hard about understanding that beneath it all is who all of us are minus the window dressing? I am no different than you in what I want for myself and my daughters as members of society and humanity. Who are you essentially?

[seabeyond]

49. good post. you know what i find interesting? my son is a philosophy major.

for the last couple years we have discussed philosophy and philologists.

subtly and not so subtly, .... it is all from mans eye. excellent shit, and fun to discuss. and still. it is mans voice, talking human.

so. you ask how. how hard it is to see all as human.

from a mans eye? it can be very hard to bring women to human.

[Skidmore]

54. What is missing is for many is that introspection

is not a skill they have acquired. So many people just absorb culture, react, and manifest it back in a reflexive manner. Who I am is not that which society appears to need me to reflect back to it as the price of belonging. Some serious adjustment to how we think of the self and its relationship to others needs to be made. The idea that the "other" is me is not easy to get to when using the Western emphasis on individuality.

[seabeyond]

56. i cannot stress how much i love your conversation and i will just post this reply

i made, i believe in this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5573795

[Skidmore]

58. Thanks for that link.

I had missed that thread. I see that we are pretty much on the same page.

I have long been fascinated with the constructs of self and the other. Western societies require the elevation of self while many other societies cultivate the other as the basis for social dialogue. How to get past the long histories of traditions, superstitions, mythology, or whatever you would call it and teach such a basic skill as introspection leading to empathy is our greatest task in life. It is something I have tried to teach my children. What is it within yourself that is the same as every other human being on the planet? It is a worthwhile exercise to be engaged in often. The goal is worthy as well.

[seabeyond]

59. thank you

i could not agree with you more. and when one gets there, and lives that. ah the fun. in acceptance. whether one speaks out or not.

[lumberjack_jeff]

75. As a philosophy, this is great.

In my experience, it often falls apart at the practical level.

[Skidmore]

78. It needs to start at home and in the

schools when children learn ethical and moral behavior. It begins with each of us.

[librechik]

61. oh--is that something you guys fear from us feminists?

We're all going to turn lesbian, and the deal is we can be feminists as long as we keep it you know feminine. I know, i know, you didn't really say that. Reading between the lines here.

I get the same shit from my darling hubby, who tries very hard to understand women. He's an anthropologist. But he thinks lesbians are predatory on hetero females and so feminism is at risk for alienating affections. Kooky, huh?

I'm not gay but the notion in the OP offends me. If men join us they don't have to turn feminine. And women don't have to turn masculine. Jeez.

[justiceischeap]

68. As a lesbian, who happens to tends towards the masculine

Tell your hubby for me that I'm nowhere near predatory (I often have no clue if a woman is interested in me unless she plants herself in my face and says so) and that I often can see a hetero woman and see her as appealing but there's one problem...she's hetero.

I think your hubby may be conflating lesbians with men (this is not meant as an insult to all men--just the one's that act as your hubby think lesbians do). Are there predatory lesbians? Yep, there are but there are also predatory hetero women and predatory men but the vast majorities of the lesbians I've known have no interest in working so hard to date someone (i.e. turning a hetero woman) and if a hetero woman happens to sleep with a lesbian? She wasn't all that hetero to begin with.

[librechik]

69. I know. It's a weak point. He abandons it if he's challenged about it

only to secretly nurse it like a superstition about spilling salt. Bless his heart!

It's a guy thing, I guess.

[seabeyond]

71. this is what i really appreciate from your post. this is the challenge. and this is what

i see so often in very good men.

it is tearing up the man card or the inability to, in my view.

[seabeyond]

70. i think how the poster interpreted the Op is off, i think. open to discussion. but...

i thought the story about husbands feeling, seeing his education was interesting.

in my experience with lesbian, i have always found the most aggressive being able to process of one that prefers a man. in my experience i never felt the predator thing, but i sure loved the experience of a different perspective.

[Recursion]

73. Huh?

[librechik]

79. yup, I know,you don't get it. Bless your heart! n/t

[Recursion]

82. Yeah, that's it

[Tuesday Afternoon]

67. Women and Men need to work together to change the Status Quo. Men need to speak up at every level

and say that the way it is now is unacceptable.

[HuckleB]

92. This doesn't seem to be a response to the content provided by Ms. Watson.