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Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
Tue Sep 23, 2014, 04:11 PM Sep 2014

I believe Jihadists must be forcefully countered

Last edited Wed Sep 24, 2014, 01:53 PM - Edit history (1)

Forcefully does not always mean "with force", but sometimes it does mean that, and I believe the use of force is an important aspect of countering Jihadists now. I have always resisted the use of force, essentially by anyone anywhere. But there are always exceptions to that for me, though rarely if ever at the full scale of war. Not all jihadists are the same, obviously, but a virulent strain has been growing at the fringes of Islam. Even Al Qaeda as we knew it was not as extreme as ISIS or Boko Haram have become. Bin Ladin initially fought against the Russians for invading Afghanistan, and he first turned his sights onto America because we established military bases in Saudi Arabia, the home of Islams must sacred sites. Al Qaeda justified terrorism using convoluted religious arguments, but it did not call for the death of "non-believers"precisely because they were "non-believers". That is the trajectory the most extreme jihadists are on now.They are seeking a holy war because they see holy war as intrinsically desirable in order to spread their own version of their faith.

It is an ideology/theology that sanctions genocide as a morally justifiable, virtually required, means towards their end. It is an ideology/theology that embraces literal slavery as an institution to practice and spread in the name of God. And they are gaining momentum, territory and adherents. They represent a brutal expansionist force more akin to naked colonialism as it was practiced from the 16th into the early 20th Century than to more traditional organized Islamist movements such as Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood. It is more like an early stage of Germany's Third Reich, with a potent virulent belief system that openly justifies the most barbaric acts against those who it does not assign basic human rights or dignity to on a mass level. Like with hard core Stalinism the end will justify any means, and those beliefs are enshrined at the highest level of the movement, openly and proudly. In their version of reality it is immoral NOT to act in that way.

That level of moral sanction given to inhuman behavior, that extreme a black and white world view without inconvenient moral ambiguities clouding the certainty of judgement, can be deceptively potent if not forcefully challenged head on. The problem is that the United States of America is in critical ways ill suited to lead that challenge. We do exercise real power and power has a role to play, but power devoid of moral authority will not win this struggle, not soon and not easily- that much seems certain. to me

If Islamic leaders, both in and out of government, need the encouragement of American military backing to take on this fight full force, we can play a role. For that reason I for the moment support the military actions taken by the Obama Administration against ISIS. I support even more its intense diplomatic efforts to expand the coalition of resistance to murderous jihadism. This could became the epic struggle of our generation or more. Done with caution, done within a unifying framework much broader than the U.S. and it's European allies, this is an imperative struggle of a different scale and purpose than mere territorial and resource ambitions that often lie at the root of most wars. We may blow this in a near infinite number of ways, and distort the conflict to serve narrow capitalist and imperial interests, but we are now up against a growing ideology that is anathema to almost all of our core values.

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I believe Jihadists must be forcefully countered (Original Post) Tom Rinaldo Sep 2014 OP
I think riversedge Sep 2014 #1
It is our intervention that has created fertile ground for extremism to grow cali Sep 2014 #2
It's not simple and clear to me Tom Rinaldo Sep 2014 #3
I see ISIS as being less of a threat than you. I believe it's growth is self-limiting. cali Sep 2014 #5
I certainly entertain the option that you are correct Tom Rinaldo Sep 2014 #6
An excellent piece of writing, TR. NanceGreggs Sep 2014 #4
Thank you Nance Tom Rinaldo Sep 2014 #7
You're very welcome, Tom! NanceGreggs Sep 2014 #8
One kick for the AM crowd n/t Tom Rinaldo Sep 2014 #9

riversedge

(70,204 posts)
1. I think
Tue Sep 23, 2014, 04:20 PM
Sep 2014

you are right. I have resisted thinking and saying it--but this vile group has to go. If we-the US has to lead, so be it. I have let myself be dragged into saying yes reluctantly, but I no longer see any way out. Pres Obama resisted striking Syria with air-power also for a long time and has taken heat for it over and over, month after month. Pres Obama is bringing in Arab states--as it should be. It is their fight also.

I was thinking of how Pres Obama is trying to bring all sides into the fight. Here at home he tried working with Repubs in Congress and they continually slapped his face. Now on the world stage, at least he has made some progress in working with others.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
2. It is our intervention that has created fertile ground for extremism to grow
Tue Sep 23, 2014, 04:26 PM
Sep 2014

It is our use of bombs and bullets that feeds extremism. And countries like SA and Qatar play both ends against the middle. ISIS and the Wahabism of SA share a lot of common ground.

I wish it was as simple and clear cut as your piece depicts. You do say that the U.S. is ill suited for the leadership role it has assumed in this struggle, but you don't delve into why.

Honestly, I think the world is far more threatened by out of control corporatism than anything else.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
3. It's not simple and clear to me
Tue Sep 23, 2014, 04:54 PM
Sep 2014

Foremost reason it isn't is because the U.S. is ill suited for the task. It wasn't my intent to write an essay about why the U.S. isn't, that is territory frequently covered here. It is far more murky than it is clear, what is clear to me though is that a brazenly openly self righteously murderous ideology is now gaining traction in the world. Extremism grows for reasons far less narrow than American bombs and bullets also. Start with poverty powerlessness and hopelessness with or without American bombs literally falling. And yes the U.S. has a role in those larger social issues also - but even in a widely optimistic best case scenario of Bernie Sanders winning the presidency in 2016 those long term trends in the world will not reverse instantly.

I do know that we react strongly at DU to state executions when the death penalty is imposed. ISIS thinks genocide can be righteous. I am not advocating minimizing the impact of American corporatism either. I've been fighting that all my life.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
5. I see ISIS as being less of a threat than you. I believe it's growth is self-limiting.
Tue Sep 23, 2014, 05:27 PM
Sep 2014

Could I be wrong? Sure, but entertain the possibility that I'm correct.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
6. I certainly entertain the option that you are correct
Tue Sep 23, 2014, 05:54 PM
Sep 2014

A good portion of me thinks that you are. I just have been caught off guard by how well all these fringe groups have been doing spreading their creed, and winning recruits willing to fight and die for it. I am taken aback by reports that tens of thousands now join their armies, and that the govern cities with hundreds of thousands of residents. It is not merely an Anti-American inspired movement. ISIS talks about retaking Moorish Spain from the Spaniards in the course of time, their historical frame of reference reaches back to "the Profit", not just to Lawrence of Arabia.

NanceGreggs

(27,814 posts)
4. An excellent piece of writing, TR.
Tue Sep 23, 2014, 05:27 PM
Sep 2014

An insightful, well-reasoned, and truly thought-provoking assessment of the realities of this situation, rather than the usual over-the-top rhetoric that's been permeating this site of late.

Extremely well done.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
7. Thank you Nance
Tue Sep 23, 2014, 05:56 PM
Sep 2014

I'm not here as often nowadays as I used to bre and I don't know if you are, but I remember missing seeing you here. Your praise means a lot to me.

NanceGreggs

(27,814 posts)
8. You're very welcome, Tom!
Tue Sep 23, 2014, 07:13 PM
Sep 2014

And thank you for the kind words.

I've hardly been here at all for years now, and post my writing elsewhere. I think a quick look around DU and the stuff that gets posted here will explain why quite quickly. It's always nice to reconnect with someone from the old days - so many have moved on.

I hope all is well with you.

Please check your DU mail - I am sending you a PM.

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