Toon: If FDR were Running Today….

[n2doc]

[Nye Bevan]

1. "Hitler isn't our problem!"

"Let the Europeans sort out their own mess!"

"No US boots on the ground in Europe!"

[n2doc]

2. Fool

If you knew any history you would know that there was a very strong anti-interventionist segment of the US, right up until we were attacked at Pearl Harbor.

Tell me again, where is the mighty ISIS air force and Navy so that they can invade and destroy us? Maybe we can give one to the 'moderates' there, who can then pass them on.

[MannyGoldstein]

3. FDR worked for years

to slowly bring the country around to the need to intervene globally.

[pangaia]

7. Whatever threat ISIS may or may not be,

nobody needs an air force or navy to bring the US to its knees.

[hueymahl]

12. War mongering bullshit

That is vacuous argument I hear from my redneck uncle. Comparing the threat of a state actor with a real military to a a bunch of thugs running around in the desert would be laughable if not so sad.

The only historic similarity between ISIS(L) and the nazi regime of pre-WWI is that our misguided policies gave rise to both of them. As far as bringing the US to its "knees", the worst they could do (and it would be terrible, no doubt) would to launch a domestic terrorist attack. And while that would certainly make the networks happy, it would hardly be an asterisk to a footnote the big scheme of the US economy.

[SkyDaddy7]

25. It may be "War mongering bullshit"...

But folks here on DU who blow off any & all threats are just as bad as the war hawks...These are very complicated times we live in the blunt statements on both sides are absurd & down right ridiculous sometimes! I wish more people here on DU would not feel like they have to run far to one side or the other because both sides are wrong.

BTW-The USA was NOT responsible for the NAZI regime due "misguided policies" as you claim...The USA & The British tried to get France to go easier on Germany after WW! so that they could grow a healthy democracy but the French would have nothing to do with it...Leaving Germany ripe for what was to come. At that point in time we traded with everyone in Europe & eyed the British as our number one adversary...And that was more economic in nature.

I could not agree more with you on the ABSURD idea that 9/11 brought America to its knees or that ISIS has the capability to bring us to our knees...If a US city was vaporized by a nuke then we could start talking like that but nothing like that has happened & lets hope it never does!

We Americans tend to way overreact & then pay for decades for that overreaction...And we have yet to learn from our mistakes which is troubling.

EDIT: I forgot...I assume you live in Georgia? I do, I live in Hampton, Georgia about 30 minute drive south of downtown Atlanta...How sweet it would be it Carter & Nunn both won, huh? Fingers crossed!!!

It sickens me how Republicans accuse Democrats of helping terrorist...I do not think I have ever seen the reverse? Honestly. As for Nathan Deal...How is that corrupt a$$hole still in office? Georgia's employment is what the 2nd worse in the nation & he runs those ads as if we are the first in the nation it turns my stomach!

[hueymahl]

27. We are in agreement

I used some short hand in my post - don't quibble with you clarifications at all.

I'm ITP - north Atlanta area. I love Hampton - great town. Glad to hear there are some progressives there.

Off topic, but just saw a new poll from 11Alive that has Carter in the lead by a point. Looking at the crosstabs, it may even be more than that as they have the black vote and the female vote below historic norms.

If feel like Charlie Brown saying this as he lines up to kick the football, but I think we finally may have a chance to get that Crook Deal out of office.

[SkyDaddy7]

54. I sure hope so...

I agree this time does feel a little different like we at least have a chance. Maybe some true journalist will break some more news on the "REAL CORRUPT DEAL" & give Carter that final boost?

And hopefully you are correct about the "black vote and the female vote below historic norms" & that turns out to be the deciding factor.

Hampton has changed big time since we moved here in 1996...It is a nice place to live. There is a really good Japanese restaurant called "Saki" right in heart of downtown Hampton my wife & I go to almost every Tuesday as our "date night". Nice.

Nice to talking to you. Take care. Go Nunn & Carter!!!!!

[Cha]

45. Are Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, and Jimmy Carter using "Warmongering Bullshit"?

"I think we need to attack ISIS. I'm really concerned about them."

"Is the bombing of ISIS justified? I say yes. And I hope President Obama has every possible success in getting allies to join with us, some with ground troops effected inside Syria."

FrodosPet http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5566788

Bernie stands with the President on this "Enormously complicated issue".. as he calls it. He disagrees with staying out of ISIS like some around are clamoring on about.

As he stated it's an "International effort" and guess what.. "they have to put money in it too."

Senator Sanders also said Assad Gassed his own people.. whether the conspiracy theorists around here believe it or not..

Hartman and he talked about one republiCon saying.. they'll "blast him if it doesn't work and ask why he didn't do it sooner if it does." Sounds like a familiar whine.

FrodosPet http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5527989

Sen. Elizabeth Warren says she supports President Obama's decision to authorize airstrikes in Iraq

BOSTON — Warning against a new U.S. war in Iraq, U.S. Sen. Elizabeth Warren on Friday stood by President Barack Obama’s decision to authorize targeted airstrikes to help defend Americans in Erbil, Iraq, and provide aid to a religious minority taking refuge in the Sinjar mountains.

“It’s a complicated situation right now in Iraq and the president has taken very targeted actions to provide humanitarian relief that the Iraqi government requested, and to protect American citizens,” Warren told reporters. “But like the president I believe that any solution in Iraq is going to be a negotiated solution, not a military solution. We do not want to be pulled into another war in Iraq.”


Senator Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., said she supports president Barack Obama's decision to authorize new airstrikes in Iraq but cautioned against U.S. involvement in a new war in the Middle East.

http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/sen_elizabeth_warren_warns_abo.html



Leyla @MiamiLib
Follow
The French Did For President Obama What They Refused To Do For Bush http://nydn.us/1tz28Oy
#p2 #tcot #uniteblue #teaparty #gop #lnyhbt
8:43 AM - 23 Sep 2014
Au revoir, ISIS fighters: French jets kill dozens of jihadists,...
The French did for President Obama on Friday what they refused to do for his predecessor — they joined the fight in Iraq.
New York Daily News @NYDailyNews

72 Retweets 20 favorites

http://theobamadiary.com/2014/09/23/a-tweet-or-two-125/

[Jamaal510]

49. +1

[Scootaloo]

51. Problem is, Bernie never endorsed war with Syria. or war, period

You keep pretending he did. He says he doesn't think there needs to be a gung-ho policy, and that he thinks that Obama is less likely than Bush to engage in such a gung-ho policy. This does not translate into "bomb the fuck out of shit." he pointed out that whatever the president does, Republicans will complain. This also does not translate into "bomb the fuck out of shit."

[cheapdate]

40. Yes. n/t

[Cha]

44. Then are you calling these people "Fool" too?.. nice personal attack, btw-can't get your point

across without calling another member a "Fool"?

Or is it "moderates" you're labeling them?..

Jimmy Carter, Bernie Sanders, and Elizabeth Warren, all well respected leaders, have access and know a hellava lot more about this than those on the internet who can't grasp this isn't being run by the bush-cheney neocon crowd.

"I think we need to attack ISIS. I'm really concerned about them."

"Is the bombing of ISIS justified? I say yes. And I hope President Obama has every possible success in getting allies to join with us, some with ground troops effected inside Syria."

FrodosPet http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5566788

Bernie stands with the President on this "Enormously complicated issue".. as he calls it. He disagrees with staying out of ISIS like some around are clamoring on about.

As he stated it's an "International effort" and guess what.. "they have to put money in it too."

Senator Sanders also said Assad Gassed his own people.. whether the conspiracy theorists around here believe it or not..

Hartman and he talked about one republiCon saying.. they'll "blast him if it doesn't work and ask why he didn't do it sooner if it does." Sounds like a familiar whine.

FrodosPet http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5527989

Sen. Elizabeth Warren says she supports President Obama's decision to authorize airstrikes in Iraq

BOSTON — Warning against a new U.S. war in Iraq, U.S. Sen. Elizabeth Warren on Friday stood by President Barack Obama’s decision to authorize targeted airstrikes to help defend Americans in Erbil, Iraq, and provide aid to a religious minority taking refuge in the Sinjar mountains.

“It’s a complicated situation right now in Iraq and the president has taken very targeted actions to provide humanitarian relief that the Iraqi government requested, and to protect American citizens,” Warren told reporters. “But like the president I believe that any solution in Iraq is going to be a negotiated solution, not a military solution. We do not want to be pulled into another war in Iraq.”


Senator Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., said she supports president Barack Obama's decision to authorize new airstrikes in Iraq but cautioned against U.S. involvement in a new war in the Middle East.

http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/sen_elizabeth_warren_warns_abo.html



Leyla @MiamiLib
Follow
The French Did For President Obama What They Refused To Do For Bush http://nydn.us/1tz28Oy
#p2 #tcot #uniteblue #teaparty #gop #lnyhbt
8:43 AM - 23 Sep 2014
Au revoir, ISIS fighters: French jets kill dozens of jihadists,...
The French did for President Obama on Friday what they refused to do for his predecessor — they joined the fight in Iraq.
New York Daily News @NYDailyNews

72 Retweets 20 favorites

http://theobamadiary.com/2014/09/23/a-tweet-or-two-125/

[Enthusiast]

52. PLUS ONE, a huge bunch!

You know, Doc, we have to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here. Isis might do an amphibious landing on Long Island.

[toby jo]

5. I'm thinking ISIS isn't about to take over the European continent.

FDR actually wanted to get involved in the Middle East and "Show them how to make that desert blossom." Wish he'd of lived longer, I'll bet his actions would have helped.

[Doctor_J]

10. Godwin's Law

You lose

[hueymahl]

13. Perfect! nt

[Nye Bevan]

23. Yeah, don't you hate it when DUers come up with Hitler analogies?

Here's another example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=285447

[stevenleser]

33. LMAO, that poster used Hitler in an analogy and now is complaining when others do it!

[Doctor_J]

36. And I made some very specific points about the similarities between them and us

which have been made by many here and elsewhere (remember the 11 signs of fascism)?

Please tell how ISIS = the Nazis.

[Cleita]

31. Godwin's law is a way to shut the conversation by the same people

who secretly admire Der Fuerher and don't want the truth out.

Read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and then tell me you don't see any similarities about the direction this country is heading from the Bush stolen election up to now.

[Doctor_J]

35. Yeah but Nye Bevan thinks ISIS = Nazi Germany

In fact we're the ones with the propaganda apparatus, the permanent state of war, the war budget that's eating up all of our resources, that wants to wage war around the globe continuously, who busts labor unions, who reviles liberals, and who believes God is On Our Side.

[Enthusiast]

53. You have been +1ed.

[KittyWampus]

62. let's see you make a bogus claim about another DU'er- Bevan NEVER equates

ISIS= Nazi. He compared/contrasted the rhetoric.

And you call DU'ers out with Godwin when you use the Hitler reference yourself.

LOL

[sabrina 1]

22. 'Isis is worse than Hitler, did you know they bombed the US and now they declared

war on us, and they are the most powerful country ever, in the history of the whole world?'

Not a country? They're WORSE than a country, when are we going to kill them them all so we can all be safe the same way we killed Al Queda and bring peace to the world?'

[LeftishBrit]

24. That is exactly what many people did say at the time.

Which is why America didn't enter the war for 2 years, until an obviously American target was attacked.

Charles Lindbergh and the America-First organization strongly opposed involvement in the war. Some such people were absolute pacifists who opposed war under any circumstances; but the majority were right-wing xenophobes.

[pampango]

28. FDR knew that what happens elsewhere in the world affects us and should concern us.

Our national determination to keep free of foreign wars and foreign entanglements cannot prevent us from feeling deep concern when ideals and principles that we have cherished are challenged.

When you see a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not wait until he has struck to crush him.

The point in history at which we stand is full of promise and danger. The world will either move forward toward unity and widely shared prosperity - or it will move apart.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/f/franklind401920.html

[LondonReign2]

57. Awww, jezus

ISIS = Hitler??? Oh for fuck's sake.

[Nye Bevan]

61. Wow, somebody claimed that?

Whoever it was is clearly pretty ignorant.

[MannyGoldstein]

4. FDR's polio was well known at the time. nt

[thucythucy]

9. But not the extent of his disability.

The fact that he couldn't walk or stand on his own was kept secret. Read Hugh Gregory Gallagher, "FDR's Splendid Deception." Out of the hundreds of thousands of photographs taken of the man, only a handful show him in his wheelchair. No photos or movies of him getting into or out of his chair were allowed to be taken, again, only a very few are now available.

The cover-up--undertaken because FDR thought (and rightly so) that people wouldn't vote for "a cripple," was so successful that to this day popular depictions show him as being less disabled than he actually was. For instance, in the recent film "Pearl Harbor" there's a scene where Jon Voight, as FDR, rises to stand on his own without assistance to demonstrate that "I don't believe anything is impossible." The disability community protested that scene, because it again minimized FDR's disability, and thus seemed to imply that sheer willpower can overcome the physical effects of polio--a myth people with polio have been fighting for decades, if not centuries. And it again seems to harken back to the idea that using a wheelchair for mobility, and needing assistance to stand, somehow makes someone less capable in all the other areas of his or her life.

When the FDR memorial on the Washington Mall was first proposed, it was proposed that the statue of FDR show him standing (without braces). Again, the disability community protested. To offer a very poor analogy, but one that might shed a little bit of insight into how the community felt about this, imagine if some future tribute to President Obama depicted him as being more "white" than he actually is. That sort of mischaracterization would not, I imagine, sit well with African American scholars, or, hopefully, any historians at all, since the implication would seem to be that only fair skinned people can be leaders.

Did you see the Burn's documentary on the Roosevelts? It did a pretty good job, in my opinion, of putting FDR's disability in perspective, as well as his very earnest efforts to conceal its extent.

Best wishes.

[MannyGoldstein]

11. There's another point of view...

That FDR used the story of his battle against his disability to enhance his electability, e.g.,

http://www.npr.org/2013/11/25/247155522/roosevelts-polio-wasn-t-a-secret-he-used-it-to-his-advantage

I think he wanted the narrative to be "I have a handicap, but by fighting it I'm getting better." But, as you say, he made it look like his fight was more successful than it had actually been.

[thucythucy]

18. The two narratives are not mutually exclusive,

as you point out.

JFK did something similar, I think. During the presidential campaign his back surgery--which had received a lot of contemporaneous coverage--was seen as an indication of his courage. See, for instance, Norman Mailer's "The Idol and the Octopus." What wasn't discussed, of course, was the fact that his bad back had more to do with his Addison's Disease than his war injuries, and that the surgery ameliorated--but did not cure--the problem. JFK too was far more disabled than was publicly known at the time.

[MannyGoldstein]

34. Good points.

Thanks!

I enjoy discussing history with knowledgeable people!

[MFrohike]

42. Well

Kennedy actually had Bobby and someone else (India someone? I forget who) go on TV during the convention to publicly deny that he had Addison's, after John Connally made the accusation on behalf of LBJ. FDR definitely danced on the line of openly lying about his polio but he never outright denied it. Of course, FDR's people went to great lengths to prevent pictures and film of him not being able to easily move on his own, so it probably adds up to the same thing.

The above being said, I don't find a disability, disease, or what have you to be an automatic disqualification for office at any level. It really makes no sense to limit it to the able-bodied when that particular subset of the population has shown itself to be as full of idiots, liars, and thieves as any other. We might find a terrific mayor or president who happens to be paralyzed. We might not. It sure as hell wouldn't hurt us to look.

[thucythucy]

56. I agree.

Disability absolutely should not be a disqualifying factor for high office, as long as the person is "otherwise qualified" as the law puts it.

"We might find a terrific mayor or president who happens to be paralyzed. We might not. It sure as hell wouldn't hurt us to look." FDR being a case in point.

I wonder if I'll live to see the day when a clearly, unabashedly, proudly disabled person is elected president.

Best wishes.

[Demeter]

15. It's far more likely that future depictions would show the President

as far more black than he was. To appeal to future voters, when the Anglos flip into minority status.

[thucythucy]

19. I would hope that future depictions

would be historically accurate, but you never know.

Best wishes.

[jwirr]

37. Yes, but he and his family hid just how severe the damage was. Many of us lived with family or

neighbors who had polio back then. They either died or recovered. Some recovered better than others and that is what the family let people think.

[Gothmog]

6. Great cartoon

[mac56]

8. Great cartoon. The tan suit is a good touch.

[ErikJ]

39. HA!

Good catch.

[cascadiance]

14. Improper salute! IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH!

[Demeter]

16. What are you ranting about?

[cascadiance]

26. I'm sure certain Republicans would have a problem with him using a hat instead of his hand...

... in this photo.

If they get upset with Obama yesterday with his salute to a soldier, and didn't get upset with Bush for saluting this way...



... that is now also illustrative of how today's world the PTB wouldn't let FDR get away with anything, much as they are attacking Obama stupidly on so many things and that crap overshadows any kind of valid analysis of many of the great things he's done for us, and also many of the big problems that really should be discussed instead that he's let happen (TPP, etc.). It shows us the challenge that we have with our grass roots movement in overcoming this huge bias of media attention that exists today that keeps progressive changes from happening.

And also note that the media of today would have probably still ignored the vast injustices done towards Japanese Americans in those days that were taken to internment camps then, especially if there would be more money to be made by the prison industrial complex that would pay our corporate media to not talk about those issues, much like the media today doesn't talk much about our huge prison populations and the way we intern undocumented people at the borders too.

[liberal N proud]

17. It would be much, much worse than that

Democratic President vs. a Republican media, it would be like a pack of mad dogs attacking a kitten.

[mountain grammy]

20. While I agree with the "pack of mad dogs," FDR was no "kitten"

[hifiguy]

29. He gave better than he got

Nobody bamboozled or BS'd FDR.

[cheapdate]

41. He did have about 16 straight years of a unified congress,

with supermajorities for much of it.

[jwirr]

38. Yes, I would put my money on him.

[thucythucy]

21. It was pretty bad anyway.

During the war all of FDR's sons served in the military, and all of them (I think) saw combat. Some were decorated for their courage, and one of them flew more than 300 combat missions. And yet Republicans of the era accused them of getting "soft" assignments because of their connections. In the Ken Burns documentary, one of FDR's sons is quoted writing home saying, "I almost wish one of us would get killed, so maybe they'd leave the rest of the family alone."

Sad, but true.

[wyldwolf]

30. and that's just from the right...

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

47. Exactly! The hatred from the left is equally matched, especially when it comes to

the current president.

[LondonReign2]

58. Yes, yes

Those of us on the left that donated money to his campaign both times and voted for him, but criticize him for his policy decisions...we just hate him, don't we?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

63. Oh shit. Whatever.

[Jackpine Radical]

32. This whole thread is one of the reasons I love this place.

Some saw things (e.g. tan suit) I had missed. Others debated historical minutiae about which I knew nothing--

Bravo all, I say!

[MFrohike]

43. True

I often think that the aggressive obsession with personalities in politics is a direct result of stupid journalists. Almost none seem to understand the policies being decided or implemented, so I figure they chose to go with gossip since it really doesn't require a skillset, other than to look shocked and speak in a faux-dramatic voice. It's often like watching a bunch of exceptionally bad Shatner impersonators.*

*I personally love Shatner. His style can be over-the-top, but it works for him.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

46. DU and so-called liberals who care: "Why can't Obama be like FDR"????

Smacking my damn head at the foolishness!!!

[Jamaal510]

50. If he were more like FDR,

there might still be Japanese internment camps and he'd be backwards on a number of social issues, such as gay rights and women's rights (or even rights for minorities). Back in FDR's time, a president openly supporting those things was a no-no, and he wasn't exactly the biggest dove, either.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

55. Exactly, and when I bring this up, no one ever has shit to say. They just continue on with their

Obama double standards: Why can't he do this or why can't he be like that? Irritating as fuck! :bang head:

[burrowowl]

48. K&R!!!!!

[Romulox]

59. Can you *imagine* DU centrists' take on the "New Deal"???? Firebagging ponies! nt

[n2doc]

60. I see we have a lot of Sensible Woodchucks here

It is remarkable how Sensible Woodchucks try to hijack a thread about media treatment nowadays to use it to try and portray liberals as opposed to the Greatest Liberal President, the Founder of modern Liberalism. Major Fail, Woodchucks!

[Aristus]

64. "The cigarette holder is so...so...so...FRENCH!"

"And how do we know he really had polio? He needs to show us the diagnosis. No, no; the real diagnosis!"