The only effective way to stop people from committing acts of terror is to fight poverty in the...

[Yavin4]

Middle East. If the oil rich nations would divert a small percentage of their wealth to ensure a large and thriving middle class in the Middle East, then the radical Islamisist would not be able to get a foothold. If people have a job, a roof over their heads, education for their children, and other modern conveniences, then they're not going to follow some whacked out Jihadist.

The Middle East has more than enough wealth to build a large, thriving middle class. There are thousands of public works jobs that need to be done in Yemen, Iraq, Pakistan, Egypt, Syria, etc. Put people to work on infrastructure projects, pay them a good wage, and we'd never have to drop another bomb again.

End poverty in the Middle East and you end terror in the Middle East.

[Scuba]

1. Stop being so sensible, the MIC needs the dough.

[JoePhilly]

2. Of what economic class were the 9/11 hijackers?

Hint: they weren't all poor.

Osama bin Laden wasn't poor.

Religion plays a major part in this.

[unblock]

4. osama bin laden wasn't a 9/11 hijacker, he was their financier.

don't know about the actual hijackers.

and economics plays a bigger role than the propagandists would have you believe, it always does.

economics generally drives decisions, religion usually merely emboldens or gives one comfort in those decisions.

many suicide bombers are doing it so that a big payment goes to the family they leave behind, but it's one thing to decide that that's what you should do for your family and it's another thing to actually go through with it. that's where religion comes in, it gets these people comfortable with their economic decision.

[Tansy_Gold]

8. Religion is also a tool

Used by those in power to manipulate and control those who have no power and to keep them powerless.

Very few of those in power are true believers.

[JoePhilly]

21. I did not say economcs plays no part.

Its just not the main part.

The terrorists want to create a religious state, through which they will control all political and economic events. They want power. And they want to use their religion as the foundation of that power, to decide all things.

[unblock]

24. the end is economic -- the power and control of resources.

religion is just a tool. if a different religion resonated with the people there, or a different form of propaganda or crowd control, then they would go with that instead. if they had the exact same religion as us, or the regimes they're fighting, they would find some other way to differentiate themselves.

religion is intertwined with it, but attributing it to religion sheds little light on what's going on. economics is a much better way of understanding what's going on. these are cultures with vast income disparities, high concentrations of wealth and power in the hands of a few oil-rich families and rotten regimes often supported by the richest country on the planet at their expense. this breeds discontent and resentment and people fighting to get what they see as their fair share. this is unsustainable in the long term, sociologically speaking; eventually this leads to violence and revolution.

[JoePhilly]

27. So when will the oppressed women in the region ...

... take up arms against the men who hold them down and keep them in poverty?

The women in the region are held down by a religious structure that's got little to do with economics.

As for some other religion "resonating" ... these religious terrorists kill you if you don't convert. Not much chance of having some other religion "resonate".

[unblock]

28. power and economics.

poverty is a lack of resources, a lack of resources is a lack of power.
it's hard to fight back when you lack power, asymmetric warfare may be the only viable option.

sociologically speaking, religion is a framework for understanding, imposing, and accepting the power and economic dynamics that are fundamentally at play. the power dynamics include women being oppressed and divided and silenced and kept in poverty. religion is a powerful way of getting them to accept it, by preaching e.g., that god has a special purpose for women that doesn't conflict with men getting what they want (power and resources and sex).

when terrorist kill you if you don't convert, what they're really asking is for you to submit to their authority. converting religion is merely one method of demonstrating that submission.


put it this way: if everyone in the planet converted to their preferred religion, but they were still in poverty and still having to work for oil-rich rulers and america was still the wealthiest country on the planet while they see themselves as getting the shaft economically, do you really think they would lay down their arms?

religion isn't really the driving force. it's an important part of the propaganda, but it's really about power and economics.

religion plays a part in our propaganda, as well, of course. we dwell on their religion in large part to avoid discussion about the problems of poor wealth distribution. focusing on religion makes it easy to just think of them as evil people who don't respect other religions. it's much more complicated when you think of them as people who are getting the shaft economically and maybe this sort of thing is an inevitable by-product of the poor resource distributions that exist in those areas.

[Yavin4]

12. The hijackers are one small sample set

They are not representative of all terrorists.

[Tansy_Gold]

3. That's what progressive social scientists would say

And everyone knows they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

[unblock]

5. exactly. no, we must do exactly what the terrorist recruiters want us to do.

at a minimum, at what point to we just decide to try something different?

[Tansy_Gold]

7. At what point? I don't know. Maybe 40 years ago? 100? 1,000?

I've driven myself crazy watching and sometimes even commenting on the rampant stupidity. I've worn out my "I.T.Y.S." rubber stamp. I've grown hoarse shouting into the wilderness.

Now I'm angry and bitter. And I have no more fucks to give.

[DetlefK]

6. Problem: For a middle-class you need education.

You need an academic infrastructure that starts with children, teaches them values like critical thinking, and turns them into people who have the brainpower to get shit done.

The Middle-East has no tradition of academy. They used to have, but it was destroyed in the Middle-Ages by islamic fanatics. "Trying to find the laws of nature is heretic, because if nature has laws then God has no free will." That's why the arabic states don't deliver scientific work of note: They have the money, but it's simply not part of their tradition. I think, the lack of natural resources and the danger of being declared a heretic bent them towards being traders, not manufacturers or scientists.

And for a stable middle-class, you need a workforce-segment of the population. You need traders, of course, to distribute goods, but you also need a class of manufacturers that can rapidly answer to the shifting demands of the market. And most importantly: By manufacturing goods you add value to resources and that value is then circulated back into society via trade and turns into wealth.

The arabic states have no manufactured goods of note (on a global scale): The sell resources (oil, food...) and services (tourism), but no modified products.



My suggestion:
Less religion, more freedom of expression, more tolerance towards new ideas, better schools.

For example: Germany's natural resources have been almost depleted over the course of the past two millennia. Yet Germany is rich. Why? Because they sell knowledge.

[Yavin4]

14. You don't necessarily need education

You need stable jobs. You need a workforce with a job to report to every day and get paid a decent wage. You need economic stability. Build roads, homes, sewer systems, power stations, etc.

[DetlefK]

20. And where do these jobs come from?

1. The problem with government-sponsored construction-projects is that the government often gets carried away: They are an easy tool to keep people employed and happy, even when continuing the projects no longer makes sense economically.

2. The government doesn't have the flexibility to provide products and innovation as needed: The failed communist economies can attest that. An economy not carried by the citizenry itself is doomed to stall.

3. Who founds companies? Someone with a sharp mind and an idea. For getting a sharp mind, a kid needs a proper education that hones the right mental skills. (Studies have shown that kids become more thoughtful and critical in life if the parents explain their decisions instead of "Because I said so".) And for getting out a new idea it helps to not live in a society that stones you to death for sorcery or condemns you for having the wrong gender.

[The2ndWheel]

9. Who's going to fight that fight?

The western world? Are we just going to walk in there(stay in there, whatever) and change things? Do we leave it up to the people in the Middle East, and let the chips fall where they may? What if that doesn't work the way we want it to?

Then if there's a thriving middle class in the Middle East, that means more energy use. Probably oil, since it's right there. That'll contribute to an increase in our environmental issues. Then the price goes up. Then we have to drill more.

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. If only Osama bin Laden had grown up in a wealthy family, perhaps he would not have turned to terror

[Yavin4]

13. OBL is not representative for all terrorist groups

He's the whacko that recruits from the poor.

[Johonny]

11. We can't even fight poverty in the USA

these days.

[mainer]

15. How do we explain terrorists going there from western Europe?

These are second generation young men born in the UK, France, Scandinavia, Germany. If any place has a thriving middle class, with a good social safety net, it would be western Europe. Yet even there, disaffected young men are ready to join ISIS.

Or are we now going to say Scandinavia's not doing enough to promote a middle class?

[logosoco]

16. That and they really need to put religion in private and not public so much.

They also need equality for women. I have no links or stats, but I am pretty sure if the women in the middle east had more power, there would not be so many people looking to terrorism.

[Yavin4]

17. Europe was once filled with religious, sexist nut jobs, and after a few huge wars...

They finally learned that if they give people economic security and education, folks become peaceful and tolerant.

[YoungDemCA]

18. One problem with your thesis: Most terrorists do not come from poor families

Mohammed Atta (one of the 9/11 hijacker-pilots) was the son of a lawyer, and a university graduate. Ziad Jarrah (another of the hijacker-pilots) actually came from a wealthy family that was secular in practice. Ayman al-Zawahiri comes from a family of surgeons, and is a surgeon himself. And I don't think I need to mention Osama bin Laden's wealthy and privileged family background.

These are not the poor, downtrodden masses of the Middle East. These are more often than not, the "best and the brightest"-from educated, solidly middle-class (and some from very wealthy) families.

One piece of the Krueger-Maleckova evidence involves 129 members of Hezbollah who died in action, mostly against Israel, from 1982 to 1994. Hezbollah is now designated by the U.S. as a terrorist organization. Biographical information from the Hezbollah newspaper al-Ahd indicates that the fighters who died were, on average, more educated and less impoverished than the Lebanese population of comparable age and regional origin.

A similar finding applies on the other side of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to Israeli Jewish extremists who attacked Palestinians in the West Bank in the late '70s and early '80s. Many of the extremists were Gush Emunim members. A list of 27 of the Israeli terrorists reveals a pattern of high education and high-paying occupations.

Krueger and Maleckova also examine surveys conducted last December with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. These polls tell us about who supports terrorism, as opposed to who are the terrorists. One set of answers reveals a high level of support for the general policy of attacking Israeli targets. This support is stronger among the literate than the illiterate. In another question, a remarkable 80% of respondents thought that the suicide bombing last June that killed 21 youths in a Tel Aviv nightclub was not terrorism. (The respondents recognized overwhelmingly that this act was regarded as terrorism by international opinion.) Moreover, the Palestinians' adherence to the view that the mass murder of civilians was not terrorism was independent of education and higher among those working than unemployed. Hence, support for terrorism was not reduced by increases in education and income.

The same patterns apply outside of the Middle East. For example, a study by Charles Russell and Bowman Miller (reprinted in the 1983 book Perspectives on Terrorism) considered 18 revolutionary groups, including the Japanese Red Army, Germany's Baader-Meinhof Gang, and Italy's Red Brigades. The authors found that "the vast majority of those individuals involved in terrorist activities as cadres or leaders is quite well-educated. In fact, approximately two-thirds of those identified terrorists are persons with some university training, [and] well over two-thirds of these individuals came from the middle or upper classes in their respective nations or areas."

http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2002-06-09/the-myth-that-poverty-breeds-terrorism

[Zorra]

19. They all make scads of money on war. Stopping jihadists would kill their cash cow. nt

[Mr. Blue Sky]

22. Poverty causes terrorism?

Seriously? Billions of people worldwide live in poverty..what percentage are terrorists? How would modern conveniences or a roof over your head insulate you from extreme religious ideology?

[geek tragedy]

23. poverty doesn't cause terrorism. Look at the Bundy/McVeigh crowd as well as the

highly privileged 9.11 hijackers.

[leftyladyfrommo]

30. I don't think Bundy is very educated.

Have you heard him speak? His linguistic patterns are those of a very uneducated person. I never got the impression that McVeigh was very intelligent but he did manage to make an extremely effective fertilizer bomb.

But I don't think these guys causing so much trouble in the Middle East are uneducated. I wonder if most of them get their education in the Madras's? Years and years of that kind of indoctrination could produce a pretty warped person.

[sabrina 1]

25. The Western Imperial nations will never, has NEVER allowed the people of the ME

to determine their own futures. The British Empire has controlled and destroyed that region of the world for eons, now the new Empire is taking over.

They are in possession of OUR resources, so they CANNOT be allowed to keep any of those resources for themselves.

[grahamhgreen]

26. ISIS pays middle class wages.

[leftyladyfrommo]

29. ISIS isn't made of poor, ignorant folks.

A friend of mine just went to a lecture by an authority on the subject and he said that these guys aren't poor. They are very middle class.

Normally I would agree with you. I know a lot of the problem in Africa is that the people are just so poor and they have no education. People like that tend to be very superstitious and fearful of anything new and different.

But I don't think you can say that about ISIS?