Can you be a Democrat and be anti-union?

[UnrepentantLiberal]

Last edited Fri Apr 13, 2012, 05:15 PM - Edit history (1)

[Horse with no Name]

1. Not a REAL Democrat. n/t

[madokie]

2. You can think you are

but to my way of thinking I'd say no you cannot be a democrat and be against the unions. IMHO

[Bluzmann57]

3. No

[mazzarro]

4. Unless you are a member of DLC/Third Way/Blue Dog

IOW - you are nothing but a DINO.

[BlueDemKev]

32. I'm a DLCer and I support Unions....

....especially after the Citizens United ruling!

[mazzarro]

51. You may be the only exception IMO

By and large the DLCers and Third Way aficionados are much in the pockets of big corporations, in my view, to care about the lowly and poor.

[seabeyond]

5. Can you be a Democrat an be anti-union?... this sounds like what repugs are going thru.

ya. you can. by consistently and always hitting that dem lever, you are being a democrat. i dont believe in all things all dems say i must believe in. (i am union supporting). but i have always, and to this day vote dem. so yes. you can be

[hifiguy]

6. No. You can call yourself a Democrat

but that doesn't mean you are one. REAL Dems support the working class and unions.

[pampango]

7. No. Are there anti-union "Democrats" who think since they believe in other Democratic positions

e.g. civil rights, welfare/safety net, peace, education, etc. sufficiently that they still call themselves Democrats? My impression is that most conservative Democrats have gone over to the other side anyway.

[Romulox]

11. Laissez-faire free traders are, de facto, anti-union, though. nt

[pampango]

15. Trade and strong unions go together quite well in Germany, Sweden and most of Europe.

They are not mutually exclusive. Unions are stronger there than they are here. I don't think most would call Germans and Swedes anti-union just because their countries trade more than the US does.

[Romulox]

21. Not in the US, however. In the US, "Free Traders" have gleefully dismantled the Labor movement. nt

[RC]

24. If you are Conservative, why bother to go over when the Democratic leadership itself has gone over?

Ask yourself, just how Liberal is the current Democrat party planks and leadership? They only looks Liberal in comparison to the other guys. The guys that are setting the agenda.
The actual political center is way over to the Left. What we currently perceived as the center is currently boarding on right wing nutzism.

[jp11]

65. Agree, I think more moderate republicans came over to the Democratic party

since they either had to quit the republican one or go hard right to still have a party.

[Romulox]

8. Um, have you SEEN how many DUers love their Nissans, Toyotas, Hyundais?

All made in the cheap labor "Right to Work" South?

[Go Vols]

38. .

Never owned a non UAW made car or truck.Supporting unions is a big part of being a Democrat to me.

[Lars39]

41. Gotta have a job before you can unionize.

[amandabeech]

56. I used to drive a Jeep Pickup. I was really sad to see it totaled (my fault and no one got hurt--

all that metal seems to mitigate damage on slow crashed--other side was a Grand Cherokee.) I had so few problems with that Jeep Pickup that it would put any Japanese, Korean or European vehicle out there. My only wish was that it had a 4 gear automatic. I think that it needed 5 or 6 gears on a manual transmission.

That pickup could hold a huge load in it's realtively small box and could tow like there was no tomorrow, which is probably why it was geared the way it was.

I now have a 2003 Ford Taurus with the sports package (and the dumb spoiler which I intend to get removed). I cleaned it up, and took my former Ukrainian roommate to a Scottish Festival out I-66 in Virginia. That 208 engine allowed me to cleanly get through traffic. Ukrainian roommate only had exposure to Soviet Ladas (Fiats which were supposed to go in cold weather) and Mercedes. He was suprised at not only the comfort and appointment of my beloved Taurus, but also the handling.

My Taurus baby only has 50,000 on him because I commute by Metro, and I hope to have him for a while.

I hear that the current Taurus is a great vehicle, too.

My favorite uncle worked on the Fischer Body line in Grand Rapids and was a proud member of the UAW.

[Romulox]

85. When I went to UM, I washed the dishes of many sons and daughters of GM engineers

Most of them seemed contemptuous as to the origin of their standard of living--nowadays, these types seem to insist on "luxury" cars--i.e. tarted up Toyotas with a $15,000 price premium (Lexus, Infiniti, and the rest.)

"Good liberals", every last one of them, except as to economic justice issues, of course.

[amandabeech]

97. I went to U-M, too.

My parents refused to allow me to take on debt or do work study. We had lived below our modest means forever to save for my college. It helped that I was an only of older parents.

I DO, however, remember the kinds of people you are writing about. I never hung around with them, not that they would have had me anyway.

In my experience, though, they were not good Democrats, but unabashed Republicans, so at least they weren't total hypocrites.

[Honeycombe8]

82. I have a Honda. I looked for an American made car with a great reliability history....

with great gas mileage, and cargo area. It doesn't exist, sad to say. I bought a Honda Fit. I really tried, though. I researched Chevys, test drove Fords. That new Ford was the only thing that came close (it has a version with a cargo area), but when Ford finally released the models to the public, they didn't release the top model with improved upholstery and premium audio, which was the model I was interested in. The upholstery on the others was pretty tacky....looked like tightly woven plastic. Besides the backset was too small to be comfortable for anyone, and the seats didn't fold down flat (to get them to fold down most of the way, even, you had to take the headrests completely off).

I'm not crazy about Hondas, but I had to get something in a hurry, when faced with a big car repair. So I got something I knew was very reliable, great gas mileage, high resale value, good fit and finish with nice upholstery, great audio.

I also looked at American cars when I got my last car 14 years ago. Again, the American mfrs didn't make what I was looking for. I ended up buying a Subaru Forester, the best car I've ever owned.

So I think it's unfair to blame the public. It's not so hard to build what I was looking for. Honda, Toyota, and Subaru do it. Reliability is key for me. That's the main thing that American mfrd cars fall short on. I loved the Chevy Equinox, but it turned out to be too big to fit in my garage, and the reliability isn't very good. Too bad. It's beautiful & the gas mileage isn't bad.

[Romulox]

84. This is an extremely verbose *justification* for why you don't support unions...

it would be better addressed to the OP.

[Spider Jerusalem]

86. That's an extremely assholish response on your part, quite honestly

"I looked for an American-made car that met my requirements and there isn't one" is a reason, not an excuse or justification. Detroit, for years now, has ignored significant market sectors and left the field to Japan and Korea on the low end and Germany on the high end. If you want a small and fuel-efficient (30mpg or greater combined) vehicle, the US doesn't produce many, and those built by American automakers may not be union-made (the Ford Fiesta, for instance, is built in Mexico).

[Honeycombe8]

88. Thank you, Spider. That was my point, for real. That I really looked...it wasn't that I didn't

care, like it is with some people.

I support unions. But it just so happens that one of things I require, unlike MANY people, is great reliability. I kept my last car for 14 years. I'm not rich. I can't afford to buy a new car or sink a lot of money into repairs every few years, just to buy a union car.

Having said that, I probably will sell my Honda Fit & get a new car in a few years, because the Fit is too small....I had to buy in a hurry. Maybe there will be more choices of what I need, by that time.

Besides, it's hard to figure out which are union and which are not, and all the cars are global, now, in some respect. Even GM.

[Romulox]

92. Gimmeabreak. You're an avowed "free trader", not an etiquette coach.

You advocate for corporations first and foremost, and then work your way backwards to whatever JUSTIFICATION you can muster.

[Spider Jerusalem]

103. Well, no, actually, I'm not

I happen to believe in fair trade, not free trade; actual free trade is possible only between contries with similar levels of worker compensation and protections. Given the choice between buying something made in China or Mexico, and something made in any first-world country where workers have the right to unionise and enjoy health and safety protections, I'll go for the latter every time; I am not, however, a blinkered economic nationalist, nor do I happen to think that worker solidarity stops at the border.

[Romulox]

104. You're a corporatist wrapped in the gaudy costume of a "citizen of the world".

Your act is unconvincing.

[blue_onyx]

102. That's ridiculous.

Here's 3 options for vehicles that get 30 mpg and are union-made in the US.

Ford Focus: 31 (28/38)
Chevy Cruze: 30 (26/38)
Chevy Sonic: 33 (29/40)

[Honeycombe8]

89. Yes, I can be verbose. But you lie when you say I don't support unions.....

it's not my fault the car mfrs that have unions didn't build a car that meets my needs.

I had to buy in a hurry, because of the repairs needed on my old car (Subaru Forester ,14 years old - yes I looked at American back then, too).

But I'll be getting a larger car in a few years, maybe. So I'll at American again, just like the times before then. Maybe they'll have better reliability by then.

For people who keep cars just a few years, reliability doesn't matter much. But I keep my cars a long time.

So....an even MORE verbose post.

BTW...people can't be expected to research where models are made and asssembled, etc., before buying. Some Hondas and Toyotas are made in America, some Fords are assembled in Mexico, some GMs are assembled here but parts come from abroad, etc.

[Romulox]

90. It's ALWAYS cheaper to hire a scab. The rest is blah blah blah... nt

[1gobluedem]

93. Don't forget

American car manufacturers have to pay for their own R&D and while continuing to pay their employees and stay in the black. Much of the Asian automotive R&D is paid for by the government. The Prius, for instance; the R&D on that was all government sponsored and, as far as I know, the car hasn't turned a profit yet. So the US manufacturers had to be responsible to the market which wanted trucks and SUVs while trying to work on the R&D for the smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles. Not that easy.

I wouldn't care in the slightest how many Americans drive Asian imports if the Asian markets, Japan especially, were open to US imports. But they aren't. And their plants in US right-to-work states are driving the quality of life down for US automakers and that burns me up. I have a friend who works for the UAW who goes on organizing trips to these plants; the inequalities and anti-union scare tactics there make me sick.

[Scuba]

9. No. Unions are the #1 voice (read: money) of the Democratic Party.

[cherokeeprogressive]

10. What does it say in the rule book?

I can't find the relevent page.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

14. Are you pro-union?

Easy question to answer.

[cherokeeprogressive]

18. Yes but that wasn't the question.

Was it?

[cyberswede]

20. Democratic Party Platform - page 16

http://www.democrats.org/about/party_platform

Good Jobs with Good Pay
In the platform hearings, Americans expressed dismay that people who are willing to study and work cannot get a job that pays enough to live on in the current economy. Democrats are committed to an economic policy that produces good jobs with good pay and benefits. That is why we support the right to organize. We know that when unions are allowed to do their job of making sure that workers get their fair share, they pull people out of poverty and create a stronger middle class. We will strengthen the ability of workers to organize unions and fight to pass the Employee Free Choice Act.

We will restore pro-worker voices to the National Labor Relations Board and the National Mediation Board and we support overturning the NLRB’s and NMB’s many harmful decisions that undermine the collective bargaining rights of millions of workers. We will ensure that federal employees, including public safety officers who put their lives on the line every day, have the right to bargain collectively, and we will fix the broken bargaining process at the Federal Aviation Administration. We will fight to ban the permanent replacement of striking workers, so that workers can stand up for themselves without worrying about losing their livelihoods. We will continue to vigorously oppose “Right-to-Work” Laws and “paycheck protection” efforts whenever they are proposed. Suspending labor protections during national emergencies compounds the devastation from the emergency. We opposed suspension of Davis-Bacon following Hurricane Katrina, and we support broad application of Davis-Bacon worker protections to all federal projects. We will stop the abuse of privatization of government jobs. We will end the exploitative practice of employers wrongly misclassifying workers as independent contractors.

[Ohio Joe]

12. No - nt

[Romulox]

13. DNC Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz doesn't support the UAW, that's for sure.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/163567-dnc-chairwoman-doesnt-drive-american

[ananda]

16. You can be anybody inhuman and hateful...

... and be anti-union.

[Egalitarian Thug]

17. Since all it takes is to register as one, yes. But if you claim to stand for Democratic principles

you cannot be anti-union. As a union member, I understand that we all have issues with our respective unions, but that doesn't mean they're bad. They're the only means we have to fight back against the MFers that would enslave us.

[leftynyc]

22. So to confirm what you seem to be saying

I would have to agree 100% with all Democratic positions in order to be considered a Democrat by the purists here? Or does that just cover unions?

[UnrepentantLiberal]

26. Which positions don't you support?

Easy question to answer.

[leftynyc]

31. I don't hate guns

and anybody who is not mentally ill or a convicted criminal should be able to arm themselves if they want to.

[Egalitarian Thug]

60. Well there's something we agree on.

Now where do you stand on the relevant question?

[leftynyc]

66. I'm personally very supportive

of unions...my grandma (may she rest in peace) went to jail for the unions and I would never cross a picket line. My point was that nobody should have to adhere to a strict doctrine in order to consider themselves a Democrat and I find the whole premise of this thread disturbing. Pretty fascist as far as I'm concerned.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

67. Fascist?

I just asked a question.

[leftynyc]

73. The concept of a strict

doctrine that must be adhered to or else the "purists" will consider you a "traitor to the cause" is very disturbing. And that was exactly the concept you were alluding to in your post.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

75. Bullshit.

I simply asked if you could be a Democrat and be anti-union. (ie - does that make sense?) But thanks for bumping my thread.

[limpyhobbler]

72. What's wrong with expecting members of a political party to agree on some core principles?

Seems sensible to me...

[leftynyc]

74. I think everything is wrong with it

The Democratic platform covers a vast array of positions - nobody should HAVE to adhere to anything in order to self identify as a Democrat and further, shouldn't have to adhere to be considered a Democrat by anyone else.

[Egalitarian Thug]

34. Well unions are the topic, but generally yes.

If you think further marginalizing or eliminating unions, and thereby worsening conditions for labor and society at large, you are standing against Democratic principles.

Red team - blue team distractions are BS and every day more and more people are seeing the game.

Oh wait, I forgot to include a pejorative. Well you can just fill in your own.

[DLevine]

19. No. n/t

[Kingofalldems]

23. NO!

[HooptieWagon]

25. I know, Alex! "What is the DLC?"

[UnrepentantLiberal]

28. Good point.

[cbdo2007]

27. Yes

You don't have to fit 100% of the mold to be a Democrat.

[Ikonoklast]

76. You don't support the right of workers to bargain collectively.

Not a bit surprised.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

79. What are your thoughts on unions?

[Iggo]

29. Yeee-haaaaaw!

Let's jumpstart this motherfucker!

[Whiskeytide]

30. I think its more complicated than a simple yes or no...

You don't have to support "everything" unions stand for to be a democrat, but you have to support working class rights because that's a fundamental platform of the party (at least its supposed to be).

[MrYikes]

33. no

You may not agree with everything a union says or does, but it is necessary to agree with the principle that workers have rights.

[Cirque du So-What]

35. I believe that the right of workers to organize

is so fundamental that no one can claim the title of Democrat without recognition of that basic right. They may not *like* unions, but recognition of that right to organize is what separates the sheep from the goats. Disclaimer: I dearly love goats, and regret this remark that may be considered disparaging to them.

[toddwv]

36. While labor issues are VERY important

I would like to think that you don't have to be a one-issue voter to be a Democrat...

In general, though, I think that supporting labor rights as a whole is a critical topic.

[Dragonfli]

37. You can be a "New Democrat", they ARE anti-union. Some consider them GOP infiltrators.

I am among those that think such things.

[tk2kewl]

39. NO WAY

[Poll_Blind]

40. NO. Every Democratic endorsement questionnaire has strong questions about union support on it.

It's one of the (sadly few) things the Democratic Party seems to officially "sniff out" from a candidate when they're looking for Democratic Party endorsement. I am still trying to find out if this changes from area to area or what.

PB

[bvar22]

42. AFIC, you can't support "Free Trade" or a "Free Market" and still be a "DEMOCRAT".

There is no way to be FOR "Free Trade" and be Pro-LABOR at the same time.
Those two positions ARE mutually exclusive.
Pick ONE.


Dennis Kucinich and Paul Wellstone were Pro-LABOR,
and had the track record to prove it.


[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22 at the Labor Day Picnic in St Paul
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[wandy]

43. Even if you never were in a union....

Even if you're line of work usualy does not involve unions.
Even if you're self employed.
You can be pro union.

However being pro union is not a requirment for being a Democrat.

[Egalitarian Thug]

61. The only requirement to being a Democrat is to register as one. n/t

[LanternWaste]

44. I imagine it depends on the Democratic platform.

I imagine it depends on the Democratic platform. If the platform endorses the establishment and maintenance of labor unions as a major premise, and one disagrees with that, one may need to look elsewhere for a political party.

[cyberswede]

46. It's in the platform

see upthread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002557924#post20

[Zalatix]

45. Yes, I oppose unions.

I oppose the corporate lobbyist unions, the corporate management unions, the bankers unions...


oh wait, you meant LABOR UNIONS!!!! Uh, nope, I support them!!!

[img][/img]

[progressoid]

47. Yes...sadly

http://crosscut.com/2011/01/03/workplace-labor/20512/How-I-became-an-anti-union-Democrat/

http://workerscompass.org/2011/05/22/the-democrats-anti-union-strategy/

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/24/1077434/-Unions-to-protest-Rahm-at-Milwaukee-fundraiser-Wednesday-3-28-12-

http://www.solidarity-us.org/node/3019

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/06/senate-passes-faa-bill_n_1258430.html

etc. etc. etc.

[Citizen Worker]

48. Of course. How many democrats voted for NAFTA and GATT? As Chris Hedges has noted, the passage of

NAFTA was a "stab in the back of the working class."

[jeff47]

49. It it time to start the latest purge?

I'm pro-union. But I don't think we need a purity test before someone can call themselves a Democrat.

Shibboleths and belief systems handed down from on-high are what the other guys do.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

52. It's not a purity test.

I'm not asking for a purge.

[jeff47]

59. Then why ask the question?

Makes no sense to ask unless you're trying to create a list of things "real Democrats" must do.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

62. Have it your way.

It's a purity test.

[KamaAina]

50. I don't know. Ask Rahm Emanuel.

[DevonRex]

53. No.

I can't see how folks can buy foreign cars, either. I know our unions are in trouble here but it sure as hell doesn't help them out if we don't even try to buy American autos made by union workers.

[hughee99]

54. Those who support "undocumented workers" coming to the US

are often called "anti-union".

[Puregonzo1188]

55. Yes.

But you can't be a progressive and be anti-union.

[DiverDave]

57. NOPE!

[Zorra]

58. Well, you can be a member of the Democratic Party and be anti-union.

You can be a member of the Democratic Party and be the President of the John Birch Society also.

Any anti-union, 1% supporting conservative can be a member of the Democratic Party. They can call themselves Democrats if they wish.

Do progressives, liberals, traditional pro-labor Democrats have to consider anti-union conservatives that are members of the Democratic Party to be Democrats?

No.

And most of us don't.

[coalition_unwilling]

83. Good point. The Democratic Party is a political grouping, whereas

progressivism is a political stance. And, as we all know, the two are not identical nor even synonyomous. Would that it were so.

[treestar]

63. No, it would be very strange

Anti union people are likely to be of the capitalist class.

[baldguy]

64. No. Just like you can't be a Democrat and support the NRA.

[TheKentuckian]

68. The circle (D) absolves all except for shout it from the rooftops, Klan robe in the closet racism

[senseandsensibility]

69. No.

eom

[frogmarch]

70. No. nt

[Muskypundit]

71. No. Fuck that noise.

[hay rick]

77. No.

[Robb]

78. Sure!

But it also makes you an asshole.

[lonestarnot]

80. Nope.

[Kaleva]

81. How can one be anti-union and vote Dem?

All or at least the vast majority of Dem candidates are pro-union or union friendly.

[WinniSkipper]

87. Can you be a democrat and support SOME UNIONS?

Last edited Mon Apr 16, 2012, 03:14 PM - Edit history (1)

Can you be a democrat and support some Union positions, and not others?

I was a member of a union (State Government) for about 4 years. Lots of plusses, and lots of minuses - but overall a good thing for government. I do think there are certain jobs/fields where unions are critical - all government positions (state, local, Fed) including police, fire, teachers.

On the private sector - I am not as sure as I used to be that unions can survive. As we, the US, seem to move our center further right, and as union representation in the private sector continues to decline, I wonder if we have reached a point where support has waned to a degree it will not come back.

When Unions had 35%+ of the private sector - they had real power. I am not so sure they do anymore. That's not to say that's a good thing - just reality.

[boxman15]

91. Well, you certainly can,

but I don't know why you would. The Democratic platform is very pro-union (at least in theory), and for good reason, so I don't know why you'd be an anti-union Democrat.

[Hotler]

94. Only if you are a scab. n/t

[Bake]

95. Not just no, but HELL NO.

OH HELL TO THE NO!

Bake

[Bradical79]

96. Yes

The Democratic party is an organization, not a belief system. You're either a registered member or you're not :-P Now, why an anti-union person would want to be a Democrat in today's day and age, I really don't know. You might be a bad democrat, stupid democrat, confused democrat, etc.

[Bradical79]

98. Kind of like being an openly gay Republican -nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. Sadly, yes. n/t

[truebrit71]

100. No.

Not even remotely...

[LeftishBrit]

101. I suppose you can vote Dem and be anti-union.

But you can't be left-wing/progressive and be anti-union (unless perhaps you are totally lacking in historical knowledge), because it is basically saying that workers should not have any protection. Look up some history about how workers were treated before the existence of unions: very little better than slavery.

[Romulox]

105. I support unions--except when it saves me a buck to go with a scab product. That counts?

[Romulox]

106. Also, I support *MY* union (a lot!). But when it comes time to support *YOURS*? I'm buying a Prius.

Sorry.

[Donny1020]

107. YES!YES!YES!

Since the NLRA was amended and amended again the Democratic Party has had all three branches of Government multiple time. Not once has the Democratic Party moved to repeal Taft Hartley. Restoring the NLRA would give back labor the right to organize and bargain agreements effectively. All the Democratic Party gives the American Labor Movement is lip service and threats to further damage the labor movement if they do not support the Democratic Party elite.

Kennedy was anti-union, Jimmy Carter was anti-union and Bill Clinton also was anti union. When I say anti union I am saying they pushed for legislation that continued to erode the rights of workers to organize and worked to limit the political power of working people if it was outside of the dictates of the leaders of the Democratic Party. The only President to appoint an actual union person to Secretary of Labor was Nixon, the firing of PATCO members was Carters plan as well as deregulation, Clinton ='s NAFTA, and the Kennedy's had an all out assault on labor.

[hrmjustin]

108. Welcome to DU my friend!