Why Did You Shoot Me, Sir ???

[WillyT]

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Holy #%^*

Seat belt violation, my ass.

[elleng]

2. Totally bogus 'seat belt' violation.

[Cleita]

3. Chris Hayes covering that story now. eom

[Nobel_Twaddle_III]

4. you dove head first into your car ?

This is the " in my opinion " typical training of cops. Exaggerate the actions of the citizen in your head, and on your report to justify anything you want to do.

[WillyT]

8. The Good News Is... The Ex-Trooper Has Been Fired And Arrested... In South Carolina...

Link: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/sc-state-trooper-fired-and-arrested-after-shooting-man-reaching-into-his-car/

[Man from Pickens]

30. Oddly enough

South Carolina seems to take the problem of police violence more seriously than a lot of northern states. About a month or so ago there was an incident in a Greenville WalMart where a cop punched a restrained-and-not-resisting man 20 times in the back of his head while onlookers filmed it and screamed for him to stop. That cop was also taken off the beat immediately and the incident appears to be being taken as a serious violation by the chain of command.

http://aattp.org/police-brutally-beat-man-in-sc-walmart-as-shoppers-beg-them-to-stop-video/

[Rex]

5. Amazing composure, the LAST thing that would be coming out of my mouth is SIR.

Probably end up getting finished off by the cop...but my RESPECT to the victim for maintaining his composure after being SHOT.

[CaptainTruth]

23. I couldn't believe how composed & polite he was.

I would have probably been going on about you trigger-happy racist MFer dumbass pig. I'm gonna have your badge & shove it so far up your a$$ you're gonna choke on it & I'm gonna sue you for so damn much that no matter how many evil spawn you produce from your fetid loins they'll all be paying me every penny they earn for their entire lives.

Sir.

[Jamastiene]

45. That sounds about right...

except I wouldn't add the Sir part at all. I'd probably still be cussing that cop out. Hey, if he has already shot me for no good reason, might as well get my "fuck yous" in to him before the huge ass hospital bill comes my way...or death. Honestly, in that case, you don't know if you are going to die or not. Might as well get a few words in edgewise.

[RedCappedBandit]

6. Worthless coward better see prison time.

This is exactly why we need every interaction with cops to be filmed. If this wasn't on camera, the fucker wouldn't be held accountable.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

20. ^^^ this^^^

Cameras on every cop.




I'm sorry, not gonna watch the vid. I don't need getting so angry I'd burst an artery.

[SomethingFishy]

27. I can't watch these things either...

I argued once that cameras on cops probably wouldn't work, as they could just turn them off, but I'm convinced that we need to at least try it.

[seabeyond]

33. i would imagine there are rules. turn it off, get fired. kinda thing. nt

[Logical]

7. What a fucking piece of shit, waiting for the fucking COP defenders to show up.....

These coward cops never want ANY risk anymore. They get a good salary and a great pension but want NO RISK.

This asshole will be found not guilty and released. And then hired by another police force.

True American Heros!

[nomorenomore08]

9. When the best thing you can say is, "Thank God he's still alive," then you know things are *bad*.

P.S. Any update on the guy's condition?

[seabeyond]

10. thank you. i have been looking to see if the man lived. articles arent saying,

and i am not watching the video. thanks. and i hear ya. but yea.... he lived.

[nomorenomore08]

13. He survived. Hence why the charge is aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, rather than murder.

Beyond that, I know nothing of the victim's condition.

[aikoaiko]

12. Or " Thank God the cop was a terrible marksman"

[Nobel_Twaddle_III]

14. and for the dash camera

[aikoaiko]

16. Agreed. That dash cam is devastating. All police should have cameras on their person.

Its the only way to know what really happened.

[Hoyt]

40. Anyone with a gun should.

[SunSeeker]

17. He was shot in the hip and said he couldn't feel his leg.

But he survived.

At least that's what was reported on the Ed Show.

The video just enraged me. I kinda wished I hadn't seen it. What a fucking cowardly, racist, paranoid idiot that cop was. He should be charged with attempted murder, not just assault. He shot 4 bullets at an unarmed man from 20 feet. Good thing he was a crappie shot and only one of the bullets hit his victim.

[seabeyond]

34. really? wow. see, i cant watch either. i watched one of the 24 yr old, right after browns murder.

the guy that stole a couple soda, sat them on pavement waiting for cops and 15 secs out of the car, they shot him. like 9 bullets. i wish i didnt see that. i do not need ot watch.

thanks for the info.

[brush]

36. Coward is right!

Where do they get these afraid-of-their-own-shadow cops?

Those worthless bastards need to weeded out of every department. The first thing they do is shoot — they don't deserve to be on any police force. Cops should have good judgment . . . and balls.

You can't be operating out there if you're afraid of everything.

[Rhiannon12866]

11. Unbelievable...

[L0oniX]

15. We need to wait until all the evidence is in....

[Logical]

18. Arg!!! Your title was pissing me off! :-)

[Ino]

19. Watch video from the beginning...

Man was behind the gas station (parked?) when cop, also behind the station, started following him. Cop drives around the building and all the way to the street before realizing the man had pulled in front of the store and stopped. Cop then backed up and pulled up behind him -- to give him a ticket for not having worn a seatbelt on private property, not on the street. Is that even a violation??

Also, it was only about 3 seconds between the time we hear the cop calmly ask for the license and then we see him pointing his gun. I'd like to know just when he unholstered that gun, took off the safety, and was ready to fire at any provocation.

Looked to me like when he was asked for his license, the man started to reach for front right pants pocket, then a little hitch as he thought "Oh, it's in the car" and bent into the car to get it. Or, as the cop would claim, "dove headfirst back into the car." Good grief, I've made those exact movements so many times. This could so easily be anyone, shot for nothing.

I am so happy this asshole pig was actually fired... and arrested! Let's hope for a conviction!

Also, in semi-good news, the CHP pig who beat that woman next to the highway got to resign; she got $1.5 million. He may yet be charged.
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/09/24/report-chp-beating-victim-to-get-1-5m-officer-to-resign/

[CaptainTruth]

22. No, there was no violation.

I posted this in an earlier thread, but the SC seatbelt law applies specifically to "public roads and highways." From what we see in the video Jones did not drive on any public roads or highways, therefore the seatbelt law did not apply. It was an unlawful stop.

[bullwinkle428]

28. The fact that it was on private property adds another level of pissed off on my part -

Around 15 years ago or so, I was T-boned in a parking lot by a young guy with his wife/girlfriend in the mini-pickup along with their little toddler. She got the kid out of the vehicle quickly and they both went into the store, probably because she wasn't in an appropriate car seat.

Anyway, it was a heavy impact - not just a little "fender bender". Called the police, and was told they wouldn't even bother coming over to take statements or investigate if there were no injuries, as it took place in a parking lot; i.e., private property.

[yesiwasacop]

41. It takes less than a second to draw a pistol

and get your sights in the general area of the target. The cop had lots of time.

Also pretty much no cop carries a pistol with a safety on...because the pistols are almost all Glocks. They do not have manual safeties.

[Jamastiene]

46. I'm not sure in SC, but in NC,

even if you are on private property and sitting in any vehicle with the engine running, you have to have your seatbelt on.

Even if that is the rule in SC too, it was a bogus reason to harass the guy...especially in a parking lot. We know the cop wasn't concerned for the guy's safety, considering he tried his damnedest to kill him, as evidenced in the video. So, his reason for harassing the guy, whatever it was, was bogus.

[phil89]

21. They're like mindless robots

waiting to shoot at the slightest hint of something that may pose a threat. Absolutely disgusting people.

[Kablooie]

24. I wish we'd hear from some police officers as to why they see every black man as a threat.

Have they all been regularly been shot at by black men?
Do they all have friends that have been killed by black men?
Do black men who murder cops usually obey orders and act respectfully?
And are white men always innocent and never a threat?

I don't get it.

I really would like to hear their justification for this constant stream of murdering innocents.

[Man from Pickens]

32. It's not just blacks and not just men

Granted it's far worse for black men, BUT if you think you're safe from arbitrary violence at the hands of some badged marauder because you're not a black man, you are quite mistaken! Whites and women are also subject to this unaccountable violence (just not as often).

The objective is clear; we are ALL meant to live in fear: comply, or die.

[Jamastiene]

47. Actually,

"The objective is clear; we are ALL meant to live in fear: comply, or die."

should really be:
The objective is clear; we are ALL meant to live in fear: comply, and die.

It sure seems that way in the past decade or so, and even worse in the last few years. The cops are scared of their own shadows or something. Maybe sheriffs should start giving each cop one bullet, like with Barney Fife. If they are that scared of everything and paranoid, maybe the one bullet in the shirt pocket is a better idea. Geez, enough with the slaughtering of harmless citizens already. In that video, even I could tell the guy was no threat and I am one of the most paranoid people I know.

[yesiwasacop]

42. I have never been shot at by a black man (person)

Last edited Fri Sep 26, 2014, 10:31 AM - Edit history (1)

The city I worked in has about a 5% black population. I never worked that part of town, my area was almost exclusively hispanic.

One of my friends was shot by a black man, but he lived. The suspect was shot

In the city I worked, virtually all officer-involved shootings involved white suspects. My shooting was a white dude who walked out the front door as we were walking up and he opened fire on us.

I dont think all cops see all black guys as a threat. We had very few shootings i can recall involving a black guy who was shot by an officer.

Like I said, I worked mostly hispanic areas so my interactions with blacks were very few. In one incident, I was attacked by about 6 black males within six months of being on the job. That is the time I used a side=handle baton on anyone and this was right after the Rodney King deal. I have to say that even then I hesitated to use my side-handle because of the stigma it carried from that incident. It very well could have cost me my life due to theh violent nature of the attack, but my back-up got there before I got banged up too bad. The fight was too involved /close for me to even get my gun out, but I was trying as I thought they were gonna kill me. Problem with drawing a handgun when you are in this type of fight, is it can get yanked from your hands and used on you. Many cops each year are killed this way.

I cant say whether or not I viewed (or was scared of) blacks as a threat after that as I had very little inter-action with them as previously mentioned.

Over my career I had probably 200 violent encounters and if I really wanted to (as many members of this forum believe cops do want to) I probably could have shot at least 10 of them and justified it as they were brandishing firearms, but I elected not to for whatever reason at the time. I must not have felt they were enough of a threat.

As a side note, the fielding of the TASER has saved more lives then you can imagine- at least in my experience. It kept me from having to shoot prob 2 or 3 people (suicidal subjects with knives) so it is a good thing for the most part.

[Kablooie]

50. Thanks for your comments.

The impression I get from the news is that there are more cases than in the past where an innocent black person is killed because of police error.

I wonder if the frequency is the same as in the past but we just hear more about them because of the internet and the prevalence of cameras or if there has been a change in police training and mental attitude in certain areas of the country that encourages more use of lethal force towards the African American public.

There have always been mistakes where deaf or mentally challenged people don't respond properly and were shot as a result and use of excessive force has long been and issue, as the Rodney King situation illustrated. But the recent wave of shootings of innocent black citizens seems to be something new, at least to me.

You mentioned that in many of your conflicts you felt that it could be handled without using your gun. I wonder if your choices stemmed from your training but training today encourages more reliance on firearms than in the past?

In the attack you mentioned it is a shame that the political atmosphere led you to restrict your defensive methods. I'm glad it worked out alright but it sounds scary. These current shootings could cause the same kind of thing. If too many police shoot innocent people there could be a backlash which could once again restrict police excessively.

I know policing is a very inexact science and when ambiguous situations have to be judged quickly mistakes will occasionally occur. It just seems that a quick decision to shoot, particularly if the suspect is black, seems more common than it did in the past.

Non lethal techniques such as TASERS are definitely a positive move. Incapacitating a suspect without killing him is clearly the preferable method if it is available.

BTW: The new guns that have sensors that only allow a specific person to shoot them sounds like a great idea for police. That should help a lot in the situations where the gun is grabbed away because they won't shoot when they aren't in the original cop's hand.

[yesiwasacop]

53. I cant provide any answer to whether or not the frequency

has increased or we just know about more of them because of social media.

As for using some kind of sensor- I'm not confident with technology at this time to guarantee 100% that it would work. Also, what if another officer needed to use your gun? That has happened.

Part of the problem with this is the public in general feels that if the suspect is unarmed, there is no way an officer can truthfully feel threatened. Tell that to a 125 lb female officer getting beat up by a guy my size ( I weigh 200 and am not fat- I can kick some ass). I can kill someone with my hands / fist / feet easily if they are either weak or I incapacitate them somehow. Or the more li kely scenario is any officer being attacked by multiple suspects. Most people cant win fights like that. If a cop is in that situation, I would hope they would shoot the suspect if they cant fight their way out of it. Also, it is not uncommon for criminals to simulate a weapon (esp during a foot pursuit) in order to somehow get a cop to stop chasing them. This is effective on occasion. No one has done that to me from what I can recall. Also, we get suicidal subjects use fake guns and come out of their car / home and point it at the police and we know what the answer to that action is. Unarmed doesnt neccesarily mean the suspect wasnt doing something to make the officer believe he was armed.

Anyway- in regards to deciding to shoot/not shoot, I think the best training / conditioning I ever got was to be on our tactical (SWAT) team for several years. On these teams, you resopond to the crazy stuff that patrol cant handle (other than to contain it) and you get to deal with the crazy guy. Usually the level of potential force is off the charts when a tactical team has to get involved.

Just dealing with that stuff conditions you and gives you more confidence to deal with out of control people- or people threatening you. Also your skills (shooting, defensive tactics, handcuffing, ground fighting, verbal judo) get refined through lots of training and repeated practical application in the field. This maes you a better patrol officer.

Problem with this type of training and experience is you cant give it to everyone. The basic patrol officer in most agencies is adequately equipped mentally and with equipment to deal with MOST scenarios. We just cant predict exact how someone will react to everything because as we know there is a first for everything. When an officer is dealing with the unknown and they get top where they fear for their life, well anything can happen at that point. Are there some rogue cops out there? Sure, but if one doies the math on how many cops there are in the country, compares that with all the calls for service they have handled versus how many citizens have been shot by police, one will find that in relation to all the public contact out there, officer involved shootings become extremely rare.

I was a cop for 20 yrs and handled thousands of calls and hudreds of violent incidents....one shooting. Virtually all my former co-workers were/are in the same boat so the notion that cops are just executing everyone is a bunch of nonsense. Not to say there are not some pretty bad incidents out there, but the vast majority of police contacts going bad are pretty much nearly zero.

Here is a DOJ study about officer involved shootings and murders of police officers. The quote from page 6 that I included is an interesting fact. Also you will find in there the death rate of officers is declining (as of 1998). At the time of the study, the police culture towards wearing a bullet-proof vest was changing. When I was hired, there were still guys running around in patrol without them. By the time I retired, I guarantee there was no one on the street without a vest on. That being said, I think the reduced death rate is attributed to the armor and no the lack of people shooting cops. Sorry about the length of response- enjoy the read.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ph98.pdf

From 1980 to 1998, young black males
made up about 1% of the U.S. popula-
tion but 21% of felons who murdered a
police officer (figure 17); young white
males were 8% of the population but
20% of the murderers of law enforce-
ment officers. Young black males
murdered police officers at a rate
almost 6 times that of young white
males (5.7 versus 1 per million popula-
tion) (the figure below and figure 18).

Just extra reading if you are bored

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2012/press-release-summary-of-2012/press-release_leoka_-2012

[Kablooie]

55. Fascinating to hear your experienced perspective on this.

And you're right, of course, about the ratio of good to bad cops.
Usually only the bad cops or cops that make high profile mistakes get in the news so the impression becomes that police problems are more numerous than they really are.

There are times that departments develop bad attitudes though. Here in Los Angeles several years ago we had a division of gang control police that were exposed to be using blatantly illegal and manipulative tactics in order to capture gang members. Since that came out the management and culture of the department has changed and my impression is that some of their neighborhoods are a little safer to be in than before. I know one neighborhood that has a popular deli that I wouldn't have walked through before the crackdown but have been to several times since. There is a small police kiosk across the street now and I think that helps.

[jwirr]

25. I think Ed Schultz said something the really explains this and maybe a lot of other of the shootings

we have been seeing. He talked about the cop being afraid and then he talked about the fact that the cop was not well trained. He also agrees with us that the answer is cameras. If this is what is driving the police to murder so many unarmed people then there are things that can be done about it. We need to demand the cameras, better training and socialization regarding the communities that they work in.

[Dont call me Shirley]

26. The good cops and their unions need to start weeding out the trigger finger cops now!

Before all of them get a bad name, and that's happening pretty fast.

[seabeyond]

35. how do you know they are trigger happy though, until they do something like this?

and ya, this would be a pretty big indicator. and at the least, should cause them to "weed" them out.

[Dont call me Shirley]

37. Psychological tests and frequent monitoring of state of being. Ban them from playing

shoot-em-up video games. Encourage honesty and have cops rewarded for honesty. Recruit stable individuals. Promote friendliness, kindness, goodness and compassion with officers. Discourage racism, violence and bad behavior immediately.

[seabeyond]

38. good points. i am a believer it is all in the higher ups. they create... they have the power

to have firm, strong boundaries and lines. that is not only will make a better force and protect citizens but will actually make the cops job easier and better.

[Dont call me Shirley]

39. Full agreement with that. We need to move back to community policing.

[Logical]

51. Cops protect bad cops. nt

[Dont call me Shirley]

52. That's a travesty which must stop.

[Catherine Vincent]

29. Lord help us...

What was wrong with that fool?

[Lex]

31. Breaks my heart.

[Blue_In_AK]

43. I think the thing that bothered me most about that video

other than the actual shooting itself was the way the victim kept saying, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry," as if he was somehow at fault. That just broke my heart.

[Jamastiene]

48. I think he was doing his best not to get killed.

That cop shot numerous times at him even AFTER he put his hands up, then yelled at him like he did something wrong. He was probably just trying to calm that trigger happy asshole down as best he could. He wanted to survive and the cop didn't seem to want him to survive. It was awful to watch. It was uncalled for. He didn't think. He just reached back to get his license then bang bang bang bang. That would be so scary.

[Uncle Joe]

44. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, WillyT.

[RebelOne]

49. I see a big lawsuit coming.

That man's phone is going to be ringing with lots of lawyers wanting to represent him in a lawsuit against the police department and that cop.

[libdem4life]

54. Money is the only thing that will prevent this type of witlessness. Bankrupt the cop agency

be it city, county or state. Lower the salaries with each occurence, give psychological tests to war vets.

[TheKentuckian]

56. The scary thing is Officer Terminator didn't seem upset or escalated at all

Just a day at the office, doing the job, nothing to see here.