I am sick to death of getting chain e-mails and Facebook notices all about

[hedgehog]

how we owe all our freedoms to the military. Not to take away from those who died in uniform for this country, but what about all the union men, the suffragettes, the men at the Stonewall riots, the kids who sat in at lunch counters and got on the buses, the people who ran the Underground Railroad, religious leaders who said religion was a private matter, not a state matter, etc, etc.

[hrmjustin]

1. You are right that they should be honored more.

We should honor them all together.

[Dawson Leery]

2. What about India?

India is free in spite of the uniform.

[Drale]

3. My biggest pet peeve is

people who try and tell me just because they served in the Military, they somehow know better then I do how things should be and that because I didn't serve, my opinion doesn't matter.

[Populist_Prole]

4. +1

Not so much by ex-enlisted veternans, but by opinionated retired colonel types seen in stupid screeds in right wing emails.

[sarge43]

8. Thank you. That's generally (pardon the pun) the truth.

This retired noncom has always believed that the teacher who inspires a child to reach for the sky has done as much for this country as I did, if not more.. The lineman who faces a blizzard to ensure no one freezes in the dark also serves as does the firefighter, the volunteer at the soup kitchen, the hospice nurse and so many more.

There are many ways to serve and one doesn't have wear a uniform to do so.

[LoisB]

17. I could not agree with you more.

[tazkcmo]

32. I'm a veteran and I KNOW

lol I agree with you! Love me some teachers!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

50. !

[RoccoR5955]

9. Yeah, yet they listen to

Draft dodger Cheney, and AWOL Bush, and revere Reagan who, served in the US during WWII as a Public Relations Officer, as the second coming.

[AlbertCat]

12. Thank you!

Especially when you read about clueless oafs in the military all the time.... heroes or not.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140904/NEWS05/309040066/Group-Airman-denied-reenlistment-refusing-say-help-me-God-

[ieoeja]

38. Response to discussion about strategic discussions in DC during Vietnam:

"You weren't there, I was."

"No. You weren't there there. I was talking about McNamara siding with the Army against the Navy/Marines in Washington. You were in fucking Vietnam."


In reality, probably nobody knows less about what is going on regarding the issues of a war than the guy actually fighting the war. He knows exactly what he is told, only exactly what he is told, and that is heavily censored.

He can tell me a lot I do not know about how great a K-Bar knife's stacked leather ringed handle is because its grip does not lessen even when covered with sweat and blood up to your elbows during the monsoon season. But that has fuck all to do with what a bunch of people in DC are talking about.

[ThoughtCriminal]

41. Brings to mind a discussion I had back during the Gulf War

with Ex-Navy enlisted who served on a sub during the Vietnam war. He played the service card to suggest that my opinion had no value in foreign policy discussions since I was not a veteran.

So - experience on a submarine qualifies you as expert in foreign policy?

Yes.

You know who also served on a U.S. Navy Submarine? Jimmy Carter. Agree with him much?

This sent him into an anti-Carter tirade.

So - serving on a submarine does not qualify someone as an expert on foreign policy does it?

[Populist_Prole]

69. Excellent riposte!

You rope-a-doped him and nailed him with his own cognitive dissonance. I get into a lot of scuffles with right wingers and love doing this to them. They get smoking mad.

[tritsofme]

5. I think these sorts of people were often one in the same.

[DesertDiamond]

6. Thank you! I'm bookmarking this for the next time I see one of those posts on FB.

[Logical]

7. So true. Coal miners have a tougher life than military men. But no admiration for them. nt

[sarge43]

10. I'd say a Coast Guardman's Deep Sea Rescue duty is tougher and who ever hears about them.

"You have to go out; you don't have to come back."

[Logical]

11. I agree. Many jobs in this country are terrible. But the military is for some reason the only....

ones worshiped. Discounts, special treatment, etc.

[sarge43]

14. Well, my husband and I may be unique, but neither of us recall being worshipped or treated special

If we didn't tell you, you wouldn't know we were retired military. Neither of us have ever received discounts for our service, just a couple for being old farts.

Read the punitive articles of the UCMJ. What very few perks we get, we earned by putting up with a massive amount of male bovine fecal material. That's a daily ration. Combat increases it by factor. Oh yeah, can't quit even when it's up to the lower lip.

As this old sarge sees it, the motor mouths that make a BFD about the military and service personnel are working their own agenda; it's the equivalent of wrapping themselves in the flag. In reality they could give a rodent's backside about the grunts, swabs, zoomers, jarheads and coasties. Trust me most of us are on to them and wish they just STFU. "If it's so great, why didn't you step up."

And no that's not directed at you personally. It's for the howling monkeys in the media and the creatures in the rightwing "think tanks".

[1dogleft]

19. as a DAV myself

Thank you for your service. The only thing I will add to this thread is that the veterans gave all the other fine people the "freedom" to do there good deeds

[sarge43]

21. Returning salute, 1dogleft.

Take care.

[Jackpine Radical]

31. What war, since maybe WWII, was fought to preserve American "freedom?"

Other than maybe the freedom for American-based international corporations to play Empire games around the world.

Are you in any imaginable way freer because 60,000 Americans (not to mention millions of Vietnamese) died during our military adventure there?

[1dogleft]

34. I can't argue with what

you are saying BUT what I am referring to is that we are free because other nations are well aware of our military might including the best trained soldiers on the planet. And perhaps, just perhaps that is what keeps them at bay

[Jackpine Radical]

36. Maybe we don't need a military as large as the combined forces of the rest of the world to do that.

Last edited Sun Sep 28, 2014, 12:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Maybe diverting some of that huge expenditure into world-building, fighting poverty, malnutrition and disease around the world, would better serve those goals. Think of what we could do if we decided to give people reason to think well of us rather than just fear us.

[1dogleft]

40. I would agree

with downsizing and not being spread all over the world. I don't think other nations that are not our friends will suddenly like us for any reason. Unfortunately the motto "hated by many, liked by few, respected by all" is what you need in this world. BTW this by no means makes me happy but it is a very hostile planet we are on

[Jackpine Radical]

42. Our Macchiavellian meddling has caused us to be "hated by many."

It was our actins since the 50's that created the environment in which the Iranian insanity, the Taliban, Al Quaeda & ISIL sprang into being.

[1dogleft]

43. well it certainly

is not just the U.S. that they hate. I am not even sure if they hate us the most(ISIL that is).We have created a lot of our own problems but do you think the world would be at peace if we were not here? if so when in the last 2000 years has there been world peace

[Jackpine Radical]

44. I don't think our presence all over the place contributes to world peace.

This is really a straw-man argument.

[sammythecat]

60. I completely agree

When people have real opportunities and hope for a decent quality of life they're not as likely to engage in violent anti-social behaviors. To me, this is the ONLY way to seriously and permanently reduce wars and domestic crime.

[Needa Moment]

64. with all the money spent

on our recent shows of might, we could have created "Fortress America" and had the wherewithal to do it in ways not to trample on civil liberties 5 times over.

Makes one wish we could go back to the post Clinton (and by that, immediate post Clinton) mentality and had made the better choice.

[hedgehog]

56. Agreed! Just look at the number of homeless veterans,

let alone what's going on in Veterans' hospitals!

[LiberalLovinLug]

13. kick and rec

Its a hallmark of creeping fascism. Also and indicator of Empire and the more it is dying, the greater the emphasis on security and glorification of the armed forces.

Meant to;

a. intimidate (those in other countries as well as anti-war/military people in their own)

b. Stir up feelings of invincibility and mixed with religion all but proclaims God is on our side

c. Attracts new recruits who are watching how respected and fawned over you are once you join.

d. Blurs the line between patriotism and supporting the war machine. (If you don't support any new war, it means that these men and women paraded around in ball games, reality shows, game shows, behind politicians etc.. means you also do not care about them as human beings)

[BlancheSplanchnik]

51. !

[jalan48]

15. Conditioning

Americans have been conditioned to accept the "we are free because of our military" statement by the media. T o question it will bring down the wrath of god or whatever upon whoever does so. When's the last time someone on TV said anything even close to this? It doesn't happen. We are not allowed to think this!

[SomeGuyInEagan]

16. Most of mine come from non-vets

But ate very pro- conservative, pro-war, anti-tax folks. I have a freinds who are vets who step in and thank them for the support, but then go onto detail about how the Republicans have failed vets.

[TeamPooka]

18. K&R!

[ErikJ]

20. Remind them who voted against our vets 10 times sicne Obama elected!

[awoke_in_2003]

22. Hear hear...

I am tired of soldier worship. I don't mean this as a knock, but I think we sometimes take it a bit too far.

[citizen blues]

63. I'm tired of the hypocrisy of it!

If we truly wanted to honor our military, we wouldn't have homeless veterans on the streets. Our oh-so-patriotic congress would pass the veterans' jobs bill. We would stop sending our young men and women to serve in tour after tour after tour after tour in combat zones. You don't come back "normal" from that. You just don't.

Yeah, I'm sick of the "love" the military hype because that's all it is - hype. If we truly meant it, as a nation, we would put our money where our mouths are!

[awoke_in_2003]

71. That really gets me, too

If you want to support the troops, get them the treatments for PTSD. Stop slashing VA budgets. And if they have lost limbs, the taxpayers should pay for modifying their houses to accommodate that.

[99th_Monkey]

23. In the USA we especially adore our hired killers

whether in the military or the police.

Union organizers, not so much.

[Jackpine Radical]

45. Don't underrate the significance of the union organizers.

It's due to their efforts in the past 150 years or so that we have such a large police and National Guard presence. You just never know when you're going to have to hire half the working class to kill the other half, and it's best to have some killers already on retainer.

[Stonepounder]

62. We adore our hired killers

so long as they are in uniform. The vast majority of ex-military are treated just like kids whose mom wanted an abortion but couldn't get one - you know, love the fetus ignore the child. Look at the horror stories out of the VA, the Repubs voting against any new spending for vets and so on. The military finally agreed that the spouse of a career military person was legally entitled to half of the pension. (Try holding any kind of a career path job if you are married to an active military.) My wife would get a bump in her Social Security if I were to die. The spouse of a career military gets their half of the pension stopped when the ex-military retiree dies. How's that for honoring our military and their spouses? Look how long the VA fought to not accept that so many vets came back from VietNam with disabilities from Agent Orange. And look now at how the meme is 'gee, depleted uranium is only harmful to the enemy'. Of course war is a racket. Google Smedley Butler.

Yes, I respect the men and women who wear/have worn the uniform, but almost always the reason for war is profit for the 1%, not to 'keep America strong/free'.

[99th_Monkey]

68. I remember when an entirely different ethos seemed to be breaking free

of the military-mindset. During Viet Nam war, when it was actually "fashionable" to
burn draft cards in public denouncing militarism as a way of resolving things. "Give
Peace A Chance", "Make Love Not War", were the bywords of the day. This wave of
consciousness was very powerful, and dangerously contagious. It was not considered
particularly honorable to "serve" in the military, and many defied their draft orders,
either by fleeing the country or by going to prison. And many who did serve and
somehow survived, threw their medals on the White House lawn in protest of the
continuing war once they returned home.


When someone is conscripted into the military, they become so much cannon-fodder,
subject to being shot at, blown up, maimed for life and/or killed by the "enemy".
This amounts to a perverse kind of "human sacrifice" spectacle , an occasion to argue
that we must "support our troops", but what they really mean is "support our war".

It was not peace demonstrators who PUT that person in harms way, it was the 1%
and the war hawks in Congress and the WH. Never-the-less, by some perverse
logic, demonstrators against war are blamed for "not supporting our troops" when
they actually ARE supporting not only our troops (by bringing them home) but also
ALL human beings living in peace and harmony. I miss those days, when there was
so much hope and love in the air. Given where we are as a country and a species, I
seriously doubt I'll ever experience that again.

[jmowreader]

24. All these messages contain the "It is the soldier" poem, correct?

You know the one: "It is the soldier, not the journalist that has given us freedom of speech"... Well son, if soldiers and not journalists, campus protesters etc., make us free, then North Korea, home of the million-man army, should be the most free country in the entire world.

[1dogleft]

35. WOW JUST WOW

[ieoeja]

39. Agree with you! Jmowreader nailed that one perfectly! n/t

[4lbs]

65. What about China? It has a 25 million man army.

It obviously then is the MOST FREE COUNTRY in the entire world.

Although, those in China don't seem to think so.


*** cough ***

Tiananmen Square

*** cough ***

[jmowreader]

70. Not sure where you got your numbers, but they're too high

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_military_and_paramilitary_personnel, the Chinese military consists of 2,795,000 active-duty and reserve forces. They have 1.357 billion people, hence one soldier per 485 Chinese.

The North Koreans have 1,790,000 active-duty and reserve forces, and 24.9 million civilians - one troop under arms per 14 North Koreans.

(These numbers don't include what Wikipedia calls "paramilitaries" because that could be anything - but North Korea has almost six million people in that category alone.)

This makes your average Chinese person 34.6 times more free than your average North Korean.

The question is: what the hell does a country that has the landmass of Pennsylvania and the population of Texas need with an army that's equivalent in size to the population of Idaho?

[kcr]

25. It bothers me because it's almost always all talk.

The same people who tend to send those will vote for the politicians who will do absolutely nothing for and in fact will enact policies that harm veterans. The way our country treats veterans is a disgrace.

[tazkcmo]

33. Bingo! n/t

[treestar]

26. +1

Typical of right wingers to oversimplify.

[arcane1]

27. I'm still waiting for the military to actually protect my constitutional rights.

It would be the first time.

[logosoco]

28. Very good point!

I hate it when, and it seems like it's mostly repubs who spout this, they glorify the military and then turn around and vote down better funding for the VA. Makes no sense at all (to most people at least).
They say freedom isn't free, but then they don't want to give any real help to vets.

[GeorgeGist]

29. Freedom to be conceited dumbasses ...

seems top-of-the-list somedays.

[sendero]

30. I don't know if this will help..

... but I got sick of getting those "sponsored" ads on my wall for Greg Abbott, a man for who I hold the esteem of a landfill rat.

There is an app you can add to Facebook called FB Purity. It will let you filter out 99% of the crap you don't wish to see. Works for me.

[JEB]

46. Military worship is jingoism disguised as patriotism and used distract

from war crimes and creeping fascism.

[IkeRepublican]

47. I don't mind it at all.

Let's me know who's proud of being an attention-whoring jackass and who to watch out for, especially if it's at work.

[obxhead]

48. its debatable,

But there has not been a single fallen soldier who fought for freedom since the civil war.

It could be debated that ww1 and ww2 was a fight for freedom.

However, without any doubt, since the end of ww2 no soldier has fallen protecting our freedom. It's sad so may can die fighting a mission they never signed up for.

Today, Obama risks their lives once again, not to protect our freedom, but to protect the interests of multi billion dollar industries.

This is not the change I fought for. Fuck the bullshit, repeal the peace prize.

[yeoman6987]

49. Understand but without winning World War II

We would be nothing at all like we are now and those items you mentioned would be moot. That is the bottom line.

[cer7711]

52. Great OP! Spot On.

Last edited Sun Sep 28, 2014, 10:50 PM - Edit history (3)

Also: The tens of thousands of enslaved Africans (and their American-born offspring) who helped build this country's foundational infrastructure and wealth; the Indians who helped keep the Plymouth Colony pilgrims from starving; the many atheists, agnostics, humanists and free-thinkers of every cultural stripe who helped inculcate a life-long love of learning, progressivism and respect for minority rights into the electorate; the countless legions of silent and oppressed LGBT citizens who served honorably and well under penalty of censure, imprisonment and/or death as soldiers, policemen, scientists, artists, teachers, tradesmen, honest political brokers and representatives of their various local, state and federal governments.

Every man, woman or child who stood up to protect minority rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in the face of tyrannical majority privilege and power.

[paulkienitz]

53. not to mention

When is the last time that American military power was really used to prevent a foreign power from imposing tyranny on us? If I have my history correct, that would be the war of 1812.

[Cheviteau]

67. Huh?

Pearl Harbor doesn't count? And I thought it did.

[paulkienitz]

72. Japan didn't try to conquer America

they only tried to drive us out of the pacific.

[DRoseDARs]

54. Because they were either black, gay, women, or poor. And all lacked guns.

eom

[the_sly_pig]

55. I wish I would have joined the Navy when I had the chance.

I think the military is a fine option for young people. It has great value and many benefits. People love all the rah-rah videos of mommy or daddy coming home surprising their loved ones. Maybe my kids might want to join.

Then I think about the possibility of some moron sending them off to war in another country, fighting and killing for some corporation, only to return home damaged because of the actions they had to take. You can't kill anyone without being changed inside forever. I would gladly pay more taxes to support military personnel in the healing process. Google 'military suicides per day' and the number is 22. How is that for honoring those that served?

Then I think of my uncle who was a marine in the early 1960's. He almost went to Cuba during the missile crisis. He never saw combat. After leaving the military he was a county government worker his whole career. His life has been completely financed by the American worker, including a pretty good retirement package. He is a vitriolic Tea Party member and a hypocrite.

I never joined the service, but I have spent 30 years in the workforce paying taxes. I have sacrificed, not in death, but in life. I have sold my time on this earth in 8 hour blocks and for a wage. I am certainly 'free' by the definition of some. I want to work on bicycles and make things out of wood. I can't because I won't be able to pay my bills. So I am not free. My freedom, therefore, has parameters by which I must abide.

And now freedom is defined by the percentage paid of annual income. Family doesn't matter, community doesn't matter. I guess my point is that maintenance of our country requires critical thinking. Critical thinking in this country is seriously lacking, as proof I present the volume of canard-filled e/mails celebrating false patriotism.

[Needa Moment]

66. Right on!

[KG]

57. when I hear about the military protecting our 'freedoms' this pic come to mind

[Spitfire of ATJ]

58. Another is when they claim our freedoms are "God given"....

Their Holy Ronny said, "Government IS the problem".

So let it be written, so let it be done.

A couple generations of anti-government crap followed to where it is unimaginable to these blind followers that our freedom comes from the government that they hate.

BTW: During Bush someone showed Southerners the Bill of Rights and told them they were proposals for Constitutional Amendments currently being brought to the floor. The good folks in the South thought all of that was a bunch of liberal crap that shouldn't be in the Constitution.

Freedom of religion? The right to a trial? Protection from searches? Are you kidding?

Bottom line, it was the LAW. Or, as Bush called it, "A goddamn piece of paper" that gave us our freedom.

[hughee99]

59. You should start a chain email or Facebook notice

About it then.

[cheapdate]

61. +1.