Pro-Russians filmed violating the cease fire agreement they signed

[Duckhunter935]

Last edited Sat Sep 27, 2014, 11:50 PM - Edit history (1)

so much for the paper it is written on.

Stakhanov, Ukraine - Heavy Shelling of Ukrainian Positions - Reported 150 Killed

Filmed and posted by Graham Phillips who is on the side of the Pro-Russian rebels

Why are the pro-Russian posters here very quiet on these violations?

[happyslug]

1. So what is thus suppose to show?

I see the 130mm guns being fired and then the gun crews start to move them then the video cuts out.

When did this occur? Not stated. No way to determine when or even where this occurred. Not on any US base, not enough Hills. Thus must be in the Ukraine but where in the Ukraine? And when?

I could take video of a TRAINING exercise done YEARS AGO and call it a recent attack. I mention that possibility for that may be what we are viewing.

Furthermore both sides did not say they would NOT TRAIN and when I trained in the US artillery we trained firing LIVE ammunition from our Guns and Howitzers. Thus this may be a training exercise that is NOT forbidden under the truce.

Furthermore what we may be seeing is a Ukrainian artillery unit - both sides are using the same artillery pieces and the uniforms are NOT that different to tell the difference in this video.

The issue us context. Where was this done? When was it done? Who filmed it and why? Some context would be nice to determine if this is what people are claiming it to be. All I can tell from this video is this is three 130 mm guns being fired. I do not even see the trucks that haul these guns.

[Duckhunter935]

2. 19 sep 14

Stakhanov, Ukraine - Heavy Shelling of Ukrainian Positions - Reported 150 Killed

Filmed and posted by Graham Phillips who is on the side of the Pro-Russian rebels

You are right, I should have given a little more context but that is on the Youtube comments for the video. I edited the OP. Look at some of the videos posted by him, beware he has posted some very graphic videos of dead Ukraine soldiers.

[happyslug]

3. The film does NOT show any shelling of Ukrainian Position, just firing of rounds

If you had film of the IMPACT of those rounds, you may have EVIDENCE of heavy shelling of Ukrainian Positions, but this still may be a Training exercise. Just because the person who says he made the video says it is heavy shelling of Ukrainian position does NOT make that a fact.

Furthermore you did NOT cite the Youtube posting, all you did was post the video, thus what comments he made as to the video is NOT on this cite NOR easy for anyone here to get to. We have to look and that can be a problem.

I looked over the ammunition, it appears to be separately loaded ammunition with Steel cartridge. When I was in US Field Artillery we used 105 mm rounds, but these were "Semi-fixed" i.e. when you opened the box you had the projectile and the brass case with the projectile inside the brass case. You could separate them to reduce the power charge and then put them back together and load them as one loading. In this photo the gunners are loading the projectile and then the case with powder in it as two separate loadings. The British used that in their WWII era 25 pounder howitzers and the British 105 mm Light Gun (but NOT as that Howitzers was adopted by the US as the M119, the US version fires semi-fixed 105 rounds, the two rounds, British and US 105 mm Howitzers are NOT interchangeable).

Anyway, since I was in the Field Artillery more and more digital data is used to determine firing. We had to run wire for telephones between the Guns AND the Fire Directional Control (FDC) so we could talk to each other. The FDC told us what charge (how many bags of powder), the elevation and the left right azimuth as well a the timing on the fuze.

Today, much of that can be done by a computer attached to the cannon. These Cannoneers may or may NOT have such advance aiming devices, but I did NOT see any communication system to tell them what to hit. i.e some sort of radio, phone, internet hookup or even smoke singles from the troops in the front lines where they want the rounds to hit. The cannons themselves are at to high an angle for any direct fire role, thus who is telling them to hit what is in question. Thus my comment this may be a training video, giving them a chance to prepare and fire cannons at a preset target as oppose to a target called in by soldiers on the front lines.

The ammunition is also in question. US Artillery Ammo comes with separate fuzes. Fuzes are the last thing put on the round before it is out into the Artillery Tube. The US has three types of Fuzes, Point Detonator (PD) mechanical time and Proximity fuse. PDs are about $50 a pop, the Mechanical Fize $200 the Proximity closer to $500. These rounds all seem to have fuzes already attached to the round before the box is even open. We NEVER did that. Fuzes were kept in their own case in a separate specially made box for them (It was the same metal box used for .50 caliber machine gun ammunition, but with an insert to hold eight fuzes).

Thus these rounds had fuzes attached out of the box, more like tank ammunition then artillery ammunition. I said these look like 130 mm Soviet Artillery pieces, but the 125 mm Soviet Anti Tank guns uses the same base through it is much heavier. Why they would be firing AT rounds at that angle I have no idea, but it is possible, but I suspect it is 130 mm Howitzers rounds. I mention the 125mm for I can NOT exclude them 100%.

Now what I have read about the 130m is that is uses two charges and can fire anywhere in a 360 degrees circle of its position. That it only had two charges would explain the lack of a powder pit in the photo. A powder pit is where we always put charges NOT put into the round when it was fired. After the cannons had all left, these were gathered up, put in a line and match was put to them. They all burn quickly and then the last people left the firing site.

I hate to say this, there is something wrong with this video. That these cannoneers had little training is clear when it came to HOW they unpacked the ammunition. On the other hand they appear to be doing everything right, as if they had SOME training. The people operating the actual cannons (who the person doing the video appeared to avoid) when firing the cannon did everything right. The people on the video appeared to be the one with the least training. This may be the result of making sure the people who actually knew how to operate the guns were operating the guns, the people handling the ammunition had the least experience with the guns.

Now, the artillery appear to be in a line, which implies that they went through some sort of alignment. When I was In the field artillery, pre internet and even computer days, we would pull into a firing position. Drop the artillery pieces where the drivers was told to drop them, then each piece was aligned with a central "aiming circle". Each gun would look through their sites at the aiming circle and the "Chief of Smoke" (That was his official name) would yell at each gun an azimuth. Each gun would turn the gun till the site was on that azimuth, then the gun would be fixed into its position (In the M102 Howitzer we would have to stake it in, on the M101A1 we would have to dig a pit under each leg of the split tail and bury the tail, I am NOT familiar with the M119, that was to new for me). We then ran out aiming posts which we posted as a fixed azimuth (the person who ran it out had to move it as directer by the gunner till it was at the proper azimuth).

I have read that the US Army no longer needs to do that, for with GPS they can place the cannon within inches of anywhere in the world. I just do NOT see the Ukrainians or the rebels having access to that technology (Through they may have access to GPS) thus I would expect to see aiming posts at least as backups to whatever GPS aiming system they are using. All you need for an "Aiming Circle" is a good compass. The Aiming circle and the aiming posts would all be to the FRONT of the cannon and thus I may be missing them for the person making the video did not film them. On the other hand the reason they were not filmed is that they do not exist.

Given the massive improvements in GPS over the last 20 years, it may be possible to lay artillery without an aiming circle AND still provide effective fire to troops on the front lines. Russia has a long history of preferring direct fire to indirect fire (more to do with Russia being in the Steeps thus few mountains to hide behind, while the US fought in Western Europe which has hills and mountains everywhere that you an hide artillery behind.

On the other hand, the technology behind firing a cannon has NOT changed that much in the last 100 years. GPSD helps determine where the gun is and where you want the round to hit. Trucks permit faster movement of guns then in the days of the Horse, but the actual operation of the guns themselves have NOT changed. The M101 A1 can trace itself back to the German 105 MM howitzer of WWI fame, and that continues in the M119, some increase in range, some increase mobility, but the round itself is about the same.

My point they seem to be no rush to fire nor to get things ready to fire. Some soldiers even joke with the video taker. My biggest problem is where is the call for fire coming from AND how is it being communicated to the Guns AND the guns being set up to provide that fire? That is completely absent from this video and without BOTH that firing was useless (Unless this was just for training to get the crew use to firing these cannons, but even then you want to control where those rounds go and get everyone use to operating together to provide fire as needed,