Why did ISIS want to draw us into war?

[cali]

I don't think there's much doubt that that's exactly what they wanted, so why do you think that ISIS leaders believe it will benefit them?

[ladjf]

1. I have no idea. But, if the answer were to be revealed, it might contain some very

significant information and we would have a much better idea of how to deal with ISIS.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. So we would attack them and raise their profile thus allowing them to garner more recruits./NT

[tecelote]

52. Agreed.

Being America's #1 enemy is a powerful recruitment tool.

[giftedgirl77]

3. Because President Obama is their true leader &

he's been dying to do some serious jihad.

[Sherman A1]

4. Not sure that they did.....

ISIS' Worst Nightmare

To fulfill his vow to “destroy” the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS), U.S. President Barack Obama will have to make a lengthy military commitment to Iraq and Syria. So far, however, the United States has limited its involvement to air strikes in Iraq and some military assistance to Iraqi and Kurdish forces on the ground. Obama’s speech this month also raised the prospect of air strikes in Syria.

Yet, within the halls of Western power, there are still those who regard using military force against ISIS as a mistake, believing that it will bolster the jihadists’ narrative of the West vs. Islam and aid ISIS propaganda -- especially if there are civilian casualties. In turn, ISIS will find it easier to recruit new members. For that reason, some have argued, ISIS was hoping to provoke a showdown with the United States all along.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Looking at the group’s recent history, it is clear that the last thing ISIS would want is for the United States to step up its military efforts in Iraq. After all, it was the U.S. military -- in conjunction with Sunni tribes -- that crushed the group’s emerging network in Iraq in late 2006 and early 2007. By 2008, the group's estimated 15,000 membership had been eviscerated by the death of 2,400 of its members and the capture of another 8,800. At the time of the U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq in December 2011, the network now known as ISIS had between 800 and 1,000 members

Although the ongoing civil war in Syria may have reenergized ISIS, it was the U.S. withdrawal that really turned the group’s fortunes around. For example, with the U.S. departure, Iraqi special forces lost access to American intelligence and helicopter transportation, significantly diminishing their abilities to carry out nighttime counterterrorism operations. On the political side, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki took the withdrawal as his cue to purge senior military figures whom the United States had trusted and replace them with vastly less competent loyalists. By October 2012, the Iraqi jihadist network had taken advantage of this to more than double in size and virtually double the amount of attacks it was carrying out a week.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141987/robin-simcox/isis-worst-nightmare?cid=nlc-foreign_affairs_this_week-091814-isis_worst_nightmare_5-091814&sp_mid=47006022&sp_rid=ay1maXR6cGF0cmlja0BzYmNnbG9iYWwubmV0S0

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. This is empirical observation and not a normative one

If ISIS thought they could intimidate the United States by beheading Americans and deter them from becoming involved they have no understanding of how most Americans think.

[Sherman A1]

27. Perhaps

Yet it does offer a different point of view. ISIS may have misjudged the outcome if this point of view is correct or they may have been goading the US.

It's just a different look....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. "Just do something" is deeply ingrained in the American personality. /NT

[Igel]

39. Your point?

They firmly believe that they are right. Most of them may have been abroad--or not, it really doesn't matter--but they are fairly ethnocentric in their views. And in the sanctity of the Koran, in which smiting the neck is said to instill terror and humility.

What they said during the first tape was an assertion of cause and affect: You have bombed us, you have spilled first blood when we had no fight with you; therefore we will kill one of yours unless you stop.

The problem was Americans didn't see anything wrong with being the first to show aggression. The options were to withdraw our citizens and "folk" from territory at risk of invasion, defend them by shooting first, or let them run the risk of being overrun and taken hostage. Killing in order to avoid withdrawing citizens was our first choice.

In some sources, that was the primary reason adduced for targeting IS sites. In other sources, the primary reason was humanitarian. The reason depended on the target audience: rah-rah Americans were told "it's to defend our own"; "we must help others, esp. those who are minorities or unlike ourselves" was told to the other audience. (Americans are generally simple creatures: They have trouble accepting that there can be more than one reason for an action. That complexity confuses them horribly and they tune into their favorite soporific broadcast of choice to be soothed by having what they believe to be true repeated back to them so they must be superior or they start walking mindlessly in circles for a way out of their conundrum. Yes, I am also an American. I intend to walk in circles in the very near future, however I'll be pushing a lawn mower. When I finally can go in a straight line, I'll transplant my cauliflower seedlings into the garden.)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. A lot of words. That's why I said it was an empirical observation and not a normative one.

Empirical=is. Normative=ought to be. That's fairly straightforward elementary logic. I was describing a phenomenon without condemning nor embracing it. Why are action movies the most popular genre at the box office? Because Americans like the rough justice they administer to the "bad guys". Bane wouldn't leave Gotham alone so Batman had to kill him.

[kelliekat44]

40. You have to remember that ISIS did not drop in the ME from outer space. These are the same people

whose families we (the western alliances) killed, whose children we indiscriminately blew up, whose women we raped, whose rich history we plundered, and whose natural resources we sought to make our own. They include many Syrians, Afghanis, Palestinians, Iraqis, and other groups from the African continent (Chad, Libya, Egypt) etc. who have lost relatively stable lives and ways to make a living to support themselves. There is a saturation point for imperialism that history has shown us but we refuse to see. In every case, oppressed peoples, if they have not been the victims of successful genocide, have risen up to fight off and in many cases rule over their oppressors. The only way that has been prevented is successful genocide as happened to the Native Americans in what is now the US. Why would those who penned the Bible (Torah) have their God order the complete annihilation of the peoples the Israelites conquered? It worked where this was done and left festering, vengeful wounds where it wasn't done. It's being tried right now in Gaza.

ISIS is the blow-back for imperialism in and around the ME and the members are legion. We will never destroy them only make more of them and destroy ourselves in the process.

[sendero]

48. I like this..

... and think this is probably as close to the truth as we are going to get.

One could see the beheadings as an intentional provocation to war, or it could be the acts of some people who are literally blind with rage at the US and are beyond caring about anything other than striking out.

[randome]

5. You believe anything a band of murderous thugs says? Okay, then.

I have no doubt they will be wiped away in due time. Not because I believe in American supremacy or any of that bullshit but because I see the Middle East coming together to stop them.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[cali]

8. they haven't said it as far as I know, so no that 's not the reason I believe it.

I believe it because of their actions. And sure, they may be wiped out, but that doesn't mean that they won't just morph into something else or that we won't create more antipathy within the Muslim world.

And I don't see the ME coming together to stop them. I see a lukewarm effort on the part of the governments of a few countries.

[randome]

12. Which is more cooperation than they've given themselves in a while.

I'm not saying this is akin to an alien invasion forcing humanity to band together for mutual survival. It's a sea change, IMO.

The world changes slowly and it's hard to see that, sometimes. Kind of like catching when the hour hand actually moves. Usually you simply realize it after the fact.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[RKP5637]

29. Good point! "The world changes slowly and it's hard to see that, sometimes.

Kind of like catching when the hour hand actually moves. Usually you simply realize it after the fact."

[Scootaloo]

53. No you don't

You see a handful of despotic oligarchies making placating gestures to the united States in order to keep their cash flow moving. CNN tells you that the Saudi princes are sole representatives of the people of the middle east. Well, hate to break it to you, but... they're not. Not at all. The "leaders" on our side are almost universally despised by their people and their neighbors.

[Rex]

6. So they can kill Americans?

They have a death wish.

[JEB]

7. Draw us into the quagmire.

Drain our resources.

[cali]

9. I think that's a lot of it.

[JEB]

11. It's worked before in that part of the world.

A few empires have tried and gone limping back home.

[AgingAmerican]

25. This is exactly what they are doing

Bankrupting us.

[RKP5637]

30. Exactly! That was Osama bin Laden's modus operandi and

this seems similar. And in the process the discontent in this country will continue to grow and grow.

[smiley]

33. and at the same time....

making some people very rich.

[Nye Bevan]

13. Becoming Jihadists, fighting the Great Satan, and beheading people,

is more fun (as far as they are concerned) than living boring lives drawing unemploymemt benefits in London.

[HereSince1628]

14. Well, was it THEM or was it THEIR SPONSOR(s)??

I'm still not convinced about the trueness of the flags being flown.

There are elements among our 'strategic partners' both foreign and domestic who live for crisis and possible realignment in that region of the world.

[randome]

15. Because they believe in a strange afterlife? Boy, are they going to be disappointed!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

[orpupilofnature57]

51. +1000 !!!!

[Wounded Bear]

16. Ask George W. Bush...

he of the "Bring it On" bullshit.

Macho assholes always end up writing checks with their mouths that their bodies can't cash. Or in their case, other people's bodies.

Basically, for them it's about street cred.

[yeoman6987]

55. He has been gone 6 years

We need to explain to the American people President Obama's goal. We can't use Bush and expect to keep the Senate. There comes a time when that doesn't work anymore. I hope it isn't too late. 5-weeks away. President Bush is nowhere listed on the ballot.

[Wounded Bear]

56. Not sure what your point is...

my point was comparing assholes who spout BS like "Bring it on" about potential and real foes. It tends to backfire.

I rather like that Pres Obama isn't going the macho way. It's not in his nature and I support that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. IMO. It's to make us into "Crusaders" that are at war with Islam.

Crusaders who will do anything to destroy Islam as a whole everywhere and make a sort of United Islam the only thing that can stop us.

It boils down to "If you aren't with us, You're against us" policy with everyone not joining in enemies of Islam.

They are counting on us in the West to act as brutally and psychotically as they do out of the fear the generate.

Right now, they have very little popular support but if we retaliate in our usual way, and the way that the public will demand that we do, their support will grow.

It's, at best, a faulty strategy with little hope of success. The West is stepping into the trap and throwing kerosene on the fire which will alienate many Muslims around the world, but ISIS will do the same by their brutal acts. They wish to reestablish the Caliphate of the Golden Age while ignoring the fact that the "Golden Age" was a thousand years ago and times have changed. It would be like the West trying to reestablish The Holy Roman Empire. And, it will fail.

[Autumn]

18. Also their support grows with every bomb we drop and every missile we fire.

Our policy doesn't work and we need someone to tell the truth that we are creating these monsters as we love to call them.

[suffragette]

41. And the "us" includes the British and French

The nationalities of the high profile recent beheadings seem calculated to be sure to draw the 3 nations in.

I appreciate your thoughtful posts, Tierra. Not enough of these on DU these days.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. ....

[suffragette]

43. ...

[librechik]

19. so the MIC can continue to profit from Eternal War

yes, i am too paranoid, I hope.

[Cleita]

20. I believe they want something like a Crusade.

They want a war between Islam and the infidel. What they are doing is irrational but from their POV makes sense because they believe God is on their side. If they lose, they all go to heaven as martyrs. If they win, they will have that Caliphate around the world they desire. It's win win for them.

[TwilightGardener]

21. I don't think they wanted to, actually. They just made too big of a land grab, in a

country where we have interests, for us to ignore--and they went after vulnerable populations and the Mosul dam. They got ambitious and overreached, and we really had no choice but to respond. The beheadings came after 10 days of airstrikes--they weren't intended to draw us in, but to damage our morale and deter us from further action, I believe.

[FrodosPet]

22. They watched Ric Flair in the 80s?

[fadedrose]

23. Wish I knew

Oh cali, I am so conflicted on what I think.

I am so fond of Obama and he's done a lot in spite of the congress refusing to work with him, or without him, for that matter. I sense goodness and sincerity in that man and can't but hope the war he's drawn us into succeeds. I don't even know what by what circumstances we would measure success.

If this military step-up has been the plan all along and his firmness in saying we will not enter any more wars was not sincere, then he must be a helluva poker player...

I don't know why ISIS would want us to be involved, but it's apparent that they do. When I hear of the evil they do, I'm happy that we're going after them and yet worried that we're involved.

It seems there's not a good solution for us and ISIS knows that.
Maybe they want to divide us, I don't know.

[AgingAmerican]

24. Theirs is a cosmic war

They welcome death. Like Bin Laden before them, they want to lure us into self destructing financially.

Bin Laden: Goal is to bankrupt U.S.

[randome]

26. Really? Without using Google, tell me who is the mastermind behind ISIS.

Last edited Sun Sep 28, 2014, 04:26 PM - Edit history (1)

That's a big difference right there.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[orpupilofnature57]

28. First I don't know if that's what they want, why aren't the Saudis on their own ?

[still_one]

31. Because they believe that it would unite Muslims against the U.S. However, they have created a

a problem when ISIS itself attack Muslims, so their objective will not be easily achieved

[customerserviceguy]

35. They really don't care about the other Muslims

They want their sect to be the only one remaining in the world, to them, Shiites and the fat and happy Saudis are also infidels. That's why I conclude that unification of Muslims against the US is not one of their objectives.

[still_one]

38. Regardless of the reason the fact that they don't care about other Muslims is the reason they won't

be successful

[customerserviceguy]

34. Because they really want us to get sick of war there

and leave and never come back, just like with Vietnam.

That's the only reason I can see. They know we'll never, ever do enough to really eradicate them, such as destroying every town in their 'caliphate', and they know that the Iranians and the Saudis won't try it while we're doing the bombing campaign. It's sort of like when fire fighters burn a strip a ground to keep a fire from spreading, that's all I can figure.

Of secondary importance is the propaganda value of it all. ISIS is the only credible chance for a jihadi-wannabe to fight The Great Satan. Also, when you show Europe that you really will murder the hostages from the countries that don't pay up ransom, it tends to not only speed up the payment, but increase it as well.

[H2O Man]

36. To bankrupt the empire.

[KoKo]

44. Like Soviet Union in Afghanistan....

So far they are on track .....

[kwassa]

37. Actually, they didn't want to draw us into war.

They just engaged in stupid tactics.

[MFrohike]

58. Amen

They seem to have a deliberate policy of "we will run amok!" That is not the same as begging the US to fight a war.

[pnwmom]

45. These are the guys who think they'll get 75 virgins, and you're asking for a logical reason? n/t

[jwirr]

46. We make for good PR.

[Douglas Carpenter]

47. why did Saddam Hussein in 1990-1991 do everything possible that would draw the great powers into war

against him and assure the destruction of his military? Why couldn't he have just pulled back enough to hold on to the oil fields north of Kuwait City and then issue all kinds of nicety-nice pronouncements about wanting dialogue and peace? Well, because he was an idiot and because he was nuts! It is totally possible that is where ISIS is coming from.

[CJCRANE]

54. He was an idiot but he wasn't nuts. He thought GHWB had given him the nod

that it was okay.

And I'm pretty sure we didn't give him the chance to pull back in time.

However, I agree, the ISIS are brainwashed nutters.

[slinkerwink]

50. Because they want to establish a caliphate that will rule the world.

They actually want world domination.

[RagAss]

57. Their thinking must be that we can't resist war.....

Like johns cannot resist prostitutes. And war will drain us dry, until we are no longer a world power. Now, where would they get that idea?

[Shankapotomus]

59. They didn't want to draw us into war

They want to benefit in Iraq from the war we just had left.