California bans government sales or display of Confederate flag

[n2doc]

SACRAMENTO -- Gov. Jerry Brown has signed legislation prohibiting California state government agencies from selling or display items displaying the Confederate flag.

Brown's office on Thursday announced signing AB2444. It was introduced by Democratic Assemblyman Isadore Hall of Compton after his mother saw replica Confederate cash sold at the Capitol gift shop.

Hall, who is black, says the state should not promote a symbol of racism that is meant to intimidate. The gift shop no longer carries the item.

Lawmakers said AB2444 doesn't violate free speech rights because it applies only to formal actions of government officials. It also allows for the flag to be displayed in books and museums for historical or educational purposes.

more

http://www.mercurynews.com/california/ci_26611193/california-bans-government-sales-or-display-confederate-flag

[ncjustice80]

1. I wish Southern states would do this.

And demolish all confederate monuments/pave over confederate graveyards while they re at it. The relics glorifying the confedarcy need to go!!!

[Lochloosa]

15. Pave over Congederate graveyards? Really? REALLY?

Why don't we pave over slave graveyards while were at it? They are as much a relic of the Souths past also.

[AlbertCat]

21. Perhaps we can pave over the Vietnam graves and demolish the monuments too

After all.... we lost that one.

[Lochloosa]

25. IKR

[ncjustice80]

48. Unless you are a member of the Confederacy, you didn t lose the civil war.

It was a win for America.

[AlbertCat]

72. Unless you are a member of the Confederacy, you didn t lose the civil war.

But the suggestion was to pave over Confederate graves and monuments..... many of which are in PA by the way.....


People don't seem to understand that before the Civil War, the actual authority of the Federal Government was a big question.

But I understand it's hard, if not impossible, to think like a 19th century person. But, y'know, it wasn't like today... with hoop skirts.

[TeamPooka]

97. The authority of the federal government was not in question, it was challeneged by

Southern states committing treason.

[Ampersand Unicode]

80. Depends on if you call it the "Civil War."

In some places down South it's still referred to as the "War of Northern Aggression." In bizarro bagger world, Lincoln was a big-gummint commie who got the feds to seize the legally owned property of law-abiding, "innocent" plantation owners. (Never mind that the "property" in question was human beings, of course.) By default, then, Lincoln is also responsible for Obamacare... because he made it illegal to own Obama. /baggerlogic

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Mississippi is the last former Confederacy member that still has the Stars & Bars as the canon in their state flag?

[AlbertCat]

91. In some places down South it's still referred to as the "War of Northern Aggression."

Where exactly?


No one seriously refers to it as that, y'know. (and if they do, few if anybody takes them seriously)

I like to call it "The Late Unpleasantness". (not really)

[bpj62]

126. State of Georgia Rest Stop on I-95 South Bound

There is a plaque inside the rest stop that honors the Georgia dead from various wars and it clearly says The War of Northern Aggression above the confederate dead. Many southerners still refer to the war that way. In Vicksburg the City did not celebrate the 4th of July until well into the 20th century because that was the day in 1863 when they surrendered to Grant after a 3 month siege. Don't fool yourself about southern attitudes towards the civil war.

[AlbertCat]

130. Don't fool yourself about southern attitudes towards the civil war.

Vicksburg is not the entire South and the 20th century was last century.

And god only knows how long ago that plaque in GA was put up. The "Many southerners still refer to the war that way." are not very many these day...few and far between. And no one takes them seriously.

So ...don't fool YOURSELF about southern attitudes towards the civil war."

[bpj62]

134. Did i say all southerners

I was born and raised in Virginia and I still live here and although it is not the deep south its southern views are very strong. You jumped on my post without any justification or reason. Just north of Richmond there is a forty foot flag pole that flies the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. Some people call it the Confederate flag or the Stars and Bars. I will not apologize for stating what a plaque said, nor will I apologize for stating my views or opinions on what some southerners still think. Your attack on my post was uncalled for but it becoming the norm here at DU.

[pnwmom]

28. So you are equating the victims and the abusers? n/t

[Lochloosa]

41. No I was pointing out the absurdity of the post

[ncjustice80]

47. Wow you are equating confederate slavers with their victims.

That is unspeakably awful.

[Lochloosa]

52. What see you talking about? Your post on its face was absurd.

We are done.

[ncjustice80]

62. Far from it, friend. Absurd is showing an ounce of support to pro slavery lovers and traitors to the

United States.

[Lochloosa]

63. I am going to try one more time. In your original post you stated we should...

"pave over confederate graveyards".

In what world is it ok to desecrate any graveyard?

That is what I found absurd. Where in any of my post did I show "support to pro slavery lovers and traitors "?

[Go Vols]

68. So you equate the USA flag

the same way as to the killing of Mexicans and American Indians I presume.

[AlbertCat]

74. Absurd is....

..... assuming the 19th century is just like today in attitudes and way of thinking.... except with hoop skirts.

[Kurska]

55. Most confederate soldiers didn't own slaves

Rich man's war, poor man's fight, like always.

[ncjustice80]

61. Most SS didnt directly murder Jews- they re still complicit in war crimes.

[ieoeja]

120. Your subject line is a little too short. It should end "at any given moment."

The old South was a military culture. Classes in a military culture rank as follows:

- Land owner is the boss.
- Warriors are admired.
- Craftsmen are necessary and accorded a base amount of respect for their skills.
- Freed man is belittled, but does possess a minimum set of rights.
- Dogs are loved.
- Laborers are so low, we feel bad for placing them so close to our dogs. No man worth his weight would ever work for another man.

Roughly every other census showed my family owning one or two slaves. This might have simply been cheating on the part of the county/state since the more slaves in the region, the more representation they received in Congress and the Electoral College. But it was more likely because they temporarily needed some help, and you just weren't going to find it for hire down south given how badly folk looked down upon unskilled labor.

Some abolitionist industrialists actually tried weaning southerners away from their reliance on slaves by building manufactories in the south and refusing to accept slave labor. Time and again a worker would make enough money to buy a slave, then show up with the slave to do his work for him. "What's the point of working if not to get enough money to buy a slave to do the work for you?"

If you need an extra hand clearing land for a new field up north, you hired somebody til the job was over. If you did the same thing down south, you bought a slave then sold him/her when the job was done.

[rjsquirrel]

64. I'm completely ok

with paving over the graveyards of treasonous racists.

[Lochloosa]

66. That's nice. Have a good day.

[merrily]

77. It's not about being relics of the South.

I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with ncjustice 80's post, but not wanting to glorify those willing to die to extend slavery to the territories with monuments is not the equivalent of paving over the modest and often non existent markers of the graves of slaves.

[Lochloosa]

84. I said nothing about the monuments. The post referred to paving over Confederate graves.

Ask the Christians in Afghanistan and Iraq how they feel about that.

Desecrating ANY grave goes beyond the pale.

[merrily]

85. Mentioning monuments--also not the issue.

You replied to a post that mentioned Civil war monuments with a post about paving over slave graveyards, also "relics" of the South. My reply was that it was not about relics of the south and that you cannot treat slaves and those who fought and died for the "states' right" of extending slavery to the territories. I never claimed you said "monuments" and why you are focusing on that is beyond me.

If you meant no grave should be desecrated to begin with, your Reply 15 was an odd way to express that thought.

[Lochloosa]

86. Here, let's read the body of the post again...

"And demolish all confederate monuments/pave over confederate graveyards while they re at it. The relics glorifying the confedarcy need to go!!!"

I was trying to point out the absurdity of wanting to pave over any grave. People may not like what they stood for or what they fought for but they were/are someone's family member.

Just imagine...and this is hypothetical...researching your family background you found out a great-great uncle jumped ship and decided to fight for the confederacy. How pissed would you be if you went to visit his grave and found a parking lot?

[merrily]

88. I know what the post said and also what your reply to it said.

I stand by both my prior posts to you, including the bits about relics of the South not being the issue, nor mentioning monuments. Also the bit about if your only point was that no grave should be paved over, you picked an odd way of expressing that. I can reply only to what you actually post

[ncjustice80]

95. Not at all as he would have been POS tea bagger racist. I have family like that now

And I wouldn t give two craps about what was done to them post mortem- why would I care about some racist proto-teabagger from 150 years ago???

[Lochloosa]

107. LOL..I have been here for almost 10 years and there is exactly 0 people in my ignore file.

Congrats. You might be the first. I have tried to explain to you several times my objection to your post and you keep interjecting things that I did not say.

And I noticed that I'm not the only one that objected to your post but you insist on calling me out.

So be it.

[ncjustice80]

108. Welcome to my list as well. nt

[Lochloosa]

109. See...you just don't pay attention. Your not on my list. Yet.

[Prophet 451]

57. That's going too far

Demolish the monuments, sure. But leave teh graveyards alone. In necessary, think of them as a terrible warning of human folly.

[B2G]

79. Should we tear down Aushwitz too?

God, some of the posts here...

[CreekDog]

110. Are you confused? Are you saying that Auschwitz is a memorial for Nazis?

No, that's ridiculous. It's a memorial to the victims of the Nazis.

What you said was horrifying, that you did so simply to win an argument is incredible.

[B2G]

111. Are you saying that Civil War graves are a memorial to racism?

And your obsession with me is growing old. You're about to become the first on my ignore list.

[CreekDog]

117. Confederate soldier graves are not equivalent to the graves of the victims of Auschwitz

isn't that obvious?

to everyone here it is, I don't know why you come to the opposite conclusion.

[B2G]

118. They are to the families of those killed

Are you really defending paving over cemeteries and destoying historic artifacts just to pick a fight with me?

[CreekDog]

128. Regardless of how their families feel, a memorial for holocaust victims is not the same

as a memorial for Confederate soldiers.

this isn't complicated.

and no, I'm not in favor of removing the cemeteries, but your comparison was so flawed that it needed to be corrected.

[B2G]

78. Yeah, let's just raze the entire city of Savannah

Idiotic post.

[hrmjustin]

87. Horrible idea about the graveyard!

[Ken Burch]

132. Most Confederate war dead were conscripts.

You can't assume that somebody was pro-slavery just because they died wearing the Grey.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

2. So long as it doesn't prohibit private display or sale

Sounds like a good law.

[tecelote]

31. Treating the symptom.

It should not be a law so it does not hide who supports it.

[PasadenaTrudy]

3. I'm trying to figure out

why so many homes in my SoCal town have an American flag up year round. I'm not even in Republican infested Orange County.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

4. I fly an American flag from my home all the time

Lots of people do, in both parties. I don't see a problem with it.

[Duckhunter935]

5. I do also

Whats the issue?

[PasadenaTrudy]

8. This is a new thing

around here. Lots of Asians moving in so I figured it was some dumb patriotic crap.

[Throd]

13. "Dumb patriotic crap"?

Why don't you ask those "Lots of Asians moving in" what their motives are instead writing them off as dumb patriots.

[PasadenaTrudy]

14. I'm not saying

Asians are putting up the flags. Never mind.

[AlbertCat]

24. Never mind.

I know.... WHOOSH!

[Throd]

26. So people who fly the flag are racists. Got it.

[AlbertCat]

29. Got it.

Uhhhh....nope. Not yet.

[Throd]

33. I think I do.

Republicans think they own the American flag. They don't.

Unfortunately, too many people on the left automatically equate displaying the flag with some kind of dark jingoistic racism. I'm proud of the ideals the flag represents, despite the reality that America often falls short of those ideals.

[Oktober]

39. Those people are bigoted morons and no better than the loons on the right....

[forthemiddle]

50. Me too.

[madville]

7. What's wrong with displaying the American flag?

Maybe they love their country and want to display their patriotism. Or maybe you're just joking

[PasadenaTrudy]

10. No I'm not joking

Not exactly in love with my country either. If I put up a flag, it would be a peace sign I suppose.

[Rex]

9. Lots of vets fly the flag at home.

It means a lot more to them, then it does to a civilian that's never seen a bullet or bomb.

[PasadenaTrudy]

12. True nt

[Leontius]

22. That's just crap, love of country has no requirement to fight in a war .

[Rex]

45. Never said it was, just from what I know personally to be true.

[Jackpine Radical]

23. As a vet, I can tell you

that most of the time when I see the flag prominently displayed on a vehicle or in conjunction with a lot of other patriotic or religious bric a brac (plywood silhouettes of soldiers kneeling at graves & the like), I tend to leap to the assumption that it carries overtones of certain aspects of America with which I prefer not to identify myself.

I don't fly the flag, I don't own one, and I don't worship it.

[Rex]

46. Jeez...I didn't ask for complaints, just what I know to be true.

Obviously what I am saying is not universal.

[upaloopa]

81. I'm a Vietnam vet and I fly the flag on national

holidays. I also read a lot about the history of our country. Americans have done a lot of bad things and a lot of good things in the past as we do today.
I celebrate the good and learn from the bad.

[Jackpine Radical]

82. As I'm sure you would realize,

my post consisted of description, not prescription.

[m-lekktor]

42. I am a vet and have no interest in flying a flag at home.

i have supervised flag raising and lowering for reveille and taps and i have been in war. I despise displays of nationalism, I am a citizen of the world! oh yeah and i think lee greenwood is cheesy as FUCK. sue me.

[snooper2]

75. One World Government, lets vote for Putin!

LOL

[Xithras]

16. Could be lazy people like me.

I tend to put my flag up on holidays, and then don't bother to take it down again for days or weeks. It has nothing to do with patriotism, and everything to do with the fact that I'm usually a bit lazy and hate pulling the ladder out

[Adsos Letter]

32. Christmas lights...

I do the same thing every year with Christmas lights, and every year my wife gives me grief about it...for, lo, these last 35 years.

Most of them usually get taken down by mid-July...

[Jamastiene]

121. I had a neighbor who left their Christmas lights up year round.

They would turn their Christmas lights on and the rest of the neighborhood lights would dim. It was a HUGE amount of lights.

[FrodosPet]

27. You can still be a Democrat, fly the flag, and love your country

Patriotism does not mean you have to be blind to the dark side of our history. It just means you respect the intent, and want to work to make our nation better, not see it destroyed or hated.

[RadicalGeek]

6. Would Never Play In PA

Too many trailer park trolls!

[Paladin]

11. Good move, California.

Those of you who are inconvenienced in your showing of treason and racism: Tough shit.

[Recursion]

17. Good. Ahistorical claptrap.

The "confederate flag" as commonly understood is completely ahistorical.

[Sopkoviak]

18. Frankly I'm more put out by goverment gift shops that display and sell items made in China

I'm looking at you Mt. Rushmore gift shop.

But I handle it in my own way, I just don't buy them.

Not sure it requires wasting time on a law when there are more important things to do.

I got Bernie on my side too.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=922660239379&set=vb.9124187907&type=3&permPage=1

[Inkfreak]

60. This is s great point.

I recently discussed his with my wife as we left the New England Aquarium. She wanted to hit the gift shop. I noticed A: some "gifts" were the generic universal kind you find in EVERY shop. And B: every single item was made in China.

It's a shame.

[WillowTree]

19. Why on Earth would any government agency, state, federal, local or otherwise.......

.......be selling confederate flags in the first place? What possible reason would there be for that?

Maybe I'm just being dense about this, but I just plain don't get it.

[AlbertCat]

20. THE Confederate flag?

[SheilaT]

30. Not that we ever see all of those others displayed.

Whenever anyone says "Confederate flag" one and only one version comes to mind.

[Go Vols]

70. The Battle flag of the Army of Tenn.

is what most consider the "Confederate Flag"

[Recursion]

35. Thank you!

I mentioned something like that a few minutes ago: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025595667

[Fred Sanders]

34. Germany bans the swastika, but many Americans fondly fly the confederate symbol....interesting.

The former involved atrocities against whites, the latter atrocities against blacks.

Interesting.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

36. Freedom of expression is also more restricted in Germany

Thanks, but no thanks. I prefer our model.

[tritsofme]

40. Are you for real?

A real "interesting" fact is that an American government lacks the power to ban a symbol like the Confederate flag or swastika due to the First Amendment.

Ever heard of that thing?

[NCTraveler]

114. I am more than thankful to live in a country where the government......

does not have the power to ban a flag. Knock Knock. It doesn't have anything to do with racism and it is amazingly foolish to think so.

[Fred Sanders]

115. You live in a country where hate and unfettered hate speech has not led to national disaster...yet.

History has not been kind to other nations like Germany, they ban hate speech for pretty good reasons...actual experience with it.

[jmowreader]

37. Why was the California Capitol Gift Shop selling that anyway?

It would be understandable - inexcusable in this day and age, but understandable - if we were talking about the Alabama Capitol Gift Shop or the Tennessee Capitol Gift Shop, because both those states were in the Confederacy. California wasn't.

[Starry Messenger]

38. Excellent question. nt.

[santamargarita]

43. Finally, thank you. That damn traitorous rag should be burned!

[MFM008]

44. ditto

Period.

[AlbertCat]

71. That damn traitorous rag should be burned!

Don't know much about history, do ya?

[santamargarita]

89. Why don't you enlighten me!

[AlbertCat]

90. Why don't you enlighten me!

http://www.amazon.com/Ken-Burns-Civil-War-Commemorative/dp/B004AR4WSA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412008069&sr=8-1&keywords=the+civil+war+ken+burns



P.S. I would like to add, in case someone thinks I am like this: to anyone who thinks "the South shall rise again" or "The Wild West was a great time!" I say: "You simply do not want to live in the 19th century. Trust me, you don't." Both notions are ridiculous and only hold both areas of the country back.

[santamargarita]

92. Ok, I thoroughly enjoyed Ken Burns, "The Civil War" as I do...

all of Ken Burns Documentaries. Thank you for that.
I still fail to see what that has to do with this "Damn Yankee" burning a confederate flag?
It's a symbol of racism, hate and betrayal.

[SwankyXomb]

123. Along with its supporters. n/t

[Wella]

49. First amendment issue. This will go to SCOTUS

/

[arcane1]

51. It only applies to government agencies, not individual citizens. It's in the post.

[onenote]

65. And how does one distinguish "educational" or "historical" flag displays/uses/sales?

If someone wants to buy a flag for use in play about the Civil War or to teach a class or in a Civil War re-enactment, they can buy one but not from a government gift shop. But if the only reason that these flags are banned from being sold in a government gift shop that sells other flags, then I could see someone making an issue of it. A confederate flag license plate? That probably falls outside the exception.

[Logical]

53. No it will not. nt

[SickOfTheOnePct]

54. No way

The state has the right to determine what will or won't be sold or displayed in its name.

Anyone that wants to display a Confederate flag in CA is free to do so without interference by the state government. But the state isn't going to sell or display.

**edited because private citizens aren't restricted to displaying the flag on private property, and my response wasn't clear on that.

[onenote]

124. There are limits.

For example, the state could have a bookstore that decided not to sell the King James bible. But if passed a law singling out only the King James bible as not being permitted to be sold (thus allowing other religious texts to be sold), or if it passed a law barring only the Koran from being sold, there would be a colorable First Amendment issue since one speech/religion/speaker would be favored or disfavored vis a vis another by the action of the state in passing the law.

[hughee99]

56. Was this an issue?

Did the state of California have a thriving Confederate flag sale business or was it often prominently displayed by state agencies?

[Prophet 451]

58. Good, about time too

The seceding states left due to slavery (we know this because they damn well told us), their nation was founded on slavery (it's in the Confederate constitution) and the display of teh flag should be seen in the same light as display of the swastika is seen in the west.

[cherokeeprogressive]

59. Damn glad they're taking care of shit that helps feed/house/provide care for the masses... WTG CA!

[Boom Sound 416]

67. Cross that one off.

Another gutsy move by our elected officials.

Good thing life is so rosy, that this is the shit they have time for.

[alp227]

93. So make an argument why CA state gift shops should be allowed to sell

a symbol of treason. I'm tired of seeing this "other issues are more important" non argument on DU.

[joeglow3]

94. Do you have a job?

Do you make more than minimum wage? Do you have truly affordable healthcare?

I am betting someone who answered "no" to any of those (or any of a dozen similar questions) would wish our government was doing something else with its time.

[alp227]

99. California has been making progress in both areas.

My city recently raised its min wage to $10/hr. San Francisco also has a min wage raise on the ballot. Los Angeles raised luxury hotels' min wage. Last year, Gov. Brown signed a bill for a statewide $10/hr wage by 2016.

For healthcare, Covered CA (the state's implementation of Obamacare) has enrolled lots of Californians.

This is why it's fallacious to say "government should be focusing on real issues not wasting time on trivial matters."

[Boom Sound 416]

101. It's a completely trivial matter

That it's sold in state run gift shops at all and then only discontinued by legislation via the state houses and governor's desk only further proves the complete waste of time.

To put it bluntly why the hell are they on the order list in the first place and why th hell can't they be simply taken off without the full strength of the 4th largest economy on the world?

[alp227]

103. Because those are STATE-OWNED gift shops in places like the Capitol

or other tourist destinations, so it is totally under the state's purview.

[Boom Sound 416]

104. I GET that they are state owned

That it still takes a legislative act is ludicrous.

Does it take the same to switch from coke to Pepsi?

This is trumpeting and nothing more.

Just out of curiosity are state legislative elections in November?

[alp227]

105. They are. But again, I'm not buying that the state is pre-empting important issues

for trivial stuff like this.

[Boom Sound 416]

106. I know you're not. NT

[CreekDog]

129. If you don't know when the state elections are, then you don't know enough to talk about this

certainly not enough to know whether or not the action is ludicrous.

the legislature and governor have been addressing a ton of pressing issues and the governor, who signed the bill, is the most popular official in the state.

he knows better than you whether this action is ludicrous or not.

[Boom Sound 416]

102. How about the gov's drone snooping views?

Or the state water supply?

[onenote]

125. Should state owned gift shops in the US sell the British Red Ensign flag?

Should it sell "Indian War Bonnets"?

Should it sell the Hammer and Sickle flag?

Should it sell any Japanese, German or Italian flags?

And where does one draw the line between selling a flag for use in a historical display or educational setting?

Seems like a strange law to me.

[LanternWaste]

119. Many halfwits are indeed, incapable of doing more than one thing at a time...

"Good thing life is so rosy, that this is the shit they have time for..."

Many halfwits are indeed, incapable of doing more than one thing at a time... and tend to project that same incompetence onto others for some reason...

[Go Vols]

69. Did Calif. fight in the Civil War?

Never understood why people outside the South would want Confederate memorabilia.

[sabbat hunter]

76. there are civil war buffs

who want memorabilia from either side, but they would be looking to collect historical items, not modern day replicas.

[upaloopa]

83. California supported the South during the civil war.

Federal troops were stationed here to keep the citizens from joining in the war. The troops were also stationed at forts were Native Americans were sent to live. One such place was Fort Tejon near Bakersfield. The troops were taken from the fort to support the war and the Native Americans left and tried to live as the had in the past.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. Been in CA for two years, have never seen one.

When I lived in FL I might see a handful a year.

[shanti]

98. take a little trip into the sierra foothills

you'll see them there.

[cherokeeprogressive]

112. I've traveled the 395 from Pearsonville to Lee Vining dozens of times.

Never saw one.

[shanti]

133. Placer, El Dorado counties

You have to go on the backroads and you will see them, along with their gun nut owners.

[BeeBee]

100. I live in Northern California and yes, sometimes I do see these flags around.

Usually on misguided kids' trucks or those trying to be "hicks."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

116. Florida isn't the deep south, of course, but it was very rare there too...

[TeamPooka]

96. Good. Keep that Treasonous propaganda merchandise out of our state. nt

[NCTraveler]

113. They signed a law....

to ban something that they had already stopped selling at the Capitol Gift Shop?

[Jamastiene]

122. The only place that flag really belongs is in museums.

Why anyone would want to display that flag today is still something I will never understand.

[Arugula Latte]

127. I'm all in favor of displaying the Confederate flag --

this way:

[Ken Burch]

131. Why would the California state capitol gift shop have ever sold replica Confederate money?

The Golden State was always on the side of the Union, AFAIK.