General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsKeep misandry out of feminism
By Newby Parton Contributing Columnist October 1, 2014
I am a feminist, so the first words I spoke at a recent town hall meeting on the new sexual assault procedures were in praise of the Universitys speedy response to the new Title IX regulations. Victims of sexual assault will now have a clearer understanding of their options. They can be advised by outside counsel at meetings. Professional investigator-judges have replaced student judges, so victims can step forward without embarrassment. Our compliance marks a huge victory for women on campus, and were all better off as a result.
I voiced a single worry at the town hall meeting: that the new preponderance of the evidence standard will, definitionally, increase the likelihood of false convictions. Unknowingly, I had struck a hole into a dam. Cries of rape culture spewed forth
snip
But this is an important conversation, and all ideas should be heard. A few women have turned the dialogue into a battle against men and women, and in doing so I fear that they will turn men away from feminism. Men feel marginalized when our worries about a real, higher risk of wrongful suspension are disregarded. Attributing these worries to rape culture only distances us further because we begin to think that this is what feminism has become a bias against males that mistakes all male viewpoints for oppression.
Treating an accused perpetrator as innocent until he is found guilty can be an outgrowth of human decency, not rape culture. Similarly, the belief that men are guilty until proven innocent is misandry, not feminism. Keeping the two separate is important. Feminism is the struggle to reach equality for the sexes. It is not misandry, a bias against males. Sadly, many men forget this because misandrists never identify as such. They will tell you they are simply feminists.
http://dailyprincetonian.com/opinion/2014/10/keep-misandry-out-of-feminism/
Just an article I read and really enjoyed that shows a different side of feminism. The kind of feminism that can recapture the imagination of the general public.
Read, comment and Enjoy.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Arkansas Granny
(31,783 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Yep, plenty of butter. And a little cayenne pepper for my bowl.
11 Bravo
(24,067 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)What's in it?
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)The predictability of it all is the bemusing thing, not the issue itself.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)about the men in this thread
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)popcorn. ridiculed with your explosions and other mocking comments.... steven, supporter of feminism. oh well hell, feminist that wants the voice at the table.
you are correct. it was not even the point of supporting the article, but certainly supporting the gist of the poster that put up the OP
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)where is the fuckin' "twist"
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)This is done with various kinds of flamebait and is a fairly standard DU practice.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)"THIS IS A GODDAMN JOKE, JUST IN CASE ANY OF YOU DON'T/CAN'T REALIZE IT!!!" just so you get the point?
Jebus wept.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)to read the minds of everyone on DU and know exactly what each of us means at all times? It must be a unique experience. The instrument or calculation has not yet been devised that can measure the cosmic extent of your arrogance.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)seaglass
(8,175 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)seaglass
(8,175 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)seaglass
(8,175 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)personally, i am clueless about THE list, but seems to be relevant to others.
seaglass
(8,175 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)The reaction to obvious flamebait (posts about Nader, Olive Garden, fried chicken, moon bombing, HRC and this topic to name but a few) around here is as predictable as the sun rising in the east. Which was my point. Duh. This thread did not disappoint. Kittens were had, umbrage was taken, and silliness abounded all around. The very definition of flamebait. I expressed no opinion about it, but merely offered a brief, snarky comment on the flame war that was certain to follow (and did).
I am not saying the OP was or is a troll, but someone who is not a troll can troll. And this is a perfect example thereof.
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)It shouldn't be.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)have mixed matter and anti-matter.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)The engines are going to blow us halfway acrrross the galaxy!"
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)There is no reason why DU cannot have a civil discussion about what was said in the article I posed. But then again, some people looking for drama will stoke the crowd and make drama happen.
seaglass
(8,175 posts)jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)I said movement feminism should do some soul searching to figure out why the brand is so unpopular. Mind you, I am also a feminist if it still means one who fights for the equal rights for men and women. I would assume that I am closer to the authors brand of feminism than anything else.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Amongst whom?
And that the discussion should worry first about men's feelings. And getting support from them, which they will withhold if we aren't giving them enough deference. You illustrate an issue right there.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)UN, Emma Watson speech. They are trying to re-brand feminism because the brand and not gender equality was unpopular
Poll: Few Identify As Feminists, But Most Believe In Equality Of Sexes
Only one-fifth of Americans identify as feminists, according to a new HuffPost/YouGov poll. But the vast majority fit the basic definition of the word.
According to the survey, just 20 percent of Americans -- including 23 percent of women and 16 percent of men -- consider themselves feminists. Another 8 percent consider themselves anti-feminists, while 63 percent said they are neither.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/16/feminism-poll_n_3094917.html
I know feminism seem to be very popular on DU but unfortunately, DU is not the real world where the brand is just as much favorable rating as congress.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It is about equal rights for the majority.
whathehell
(29,629 posts)Maybe he thinks Civil Rights are a "brand" too.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)I am misrepresenting Emma Watson cos you saying it isn't helping.
whathehell
(29,629 posts)What's her age, 20, 21?
MattBaggins
(7,939 posts)and beating on her day in and day out.
It is really quite silly.
If only women would stop making feminism about women and make it about men instead then men might join up.
wryter2000
(47,256 posts)n/t
whathehell
(29,629 posts)but your suggestion that feminists "do some soul searching" because some
men are too insecure to deal with women as equals, is like asking Civil Rights
leaders to try and figure out why White Racists don't like their 'brand".
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)out of a lot of the men. you will find the men on du. the men on this thread. that like to constantly say, feminism is dead. far from it. it is louder than it has been in a couple decades and getting louder, world wide. that is the backlash. the fear. the losing grip.
they MUST take over, change the name, let men be the voice at the table... anything, to stop it
even rape.
"Rape served a very important function in mitigating female behavior and keeping it in check. Back in the time of prehistory, a woman couldnt behave as shamelessly slutty as she can today, because of the risk of catching the eye of the wrong male. But now, with consent laws barring nature back, and feminism and sexual-liberation perverting whole generations of hearts and minds, we find ourselves in a situation gone way, way, too far.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/125551543
some of our boys and men are getting horribly desperate. even to the point of hysteria. i fear we may need the fainting couch.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_skGaPC7HKf4/SOqv_vlgJgI/AAAAAAAAA1Y/zahRhFUKbo4/s400/Blog+Fainting.jpg
whathehell
(29,629 posts)and WTF is with that Reddit thing?..I read more about it, and people have
asked Reddit to TAKE IT DOWN, for fuck's sake, but they haven't as of yet.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)whathehell
(29,629 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Last edited Fri Oct 3, 2014, 12:33 AM - Edit history (1)
leadership, HA HAHAH AHAH
MattBaggins
(7,939 posts)whathehell
(29,629 posts)because it's "dead" or some such.
How about we do an "autopsy" on Male Privilege instead?
Misandry my ass..You're just resentful of feminism and it shows.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)yet can share lectures from college kids as if we can learn something new about feminism from them. HA.
whathehell
(29,629 posts)and get paid less for the same work done by a man, or get passed over for a promotion in favor of a less competent male, or get sexual harassed on the job.
Feminism is like Wisdom -- it tends to increase with age and experience.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)that women in the sixties did not have much in the way of reproductive choice at all. He didn't know that practically speaking, many American women still do not. Stop parroting ignorant people and do some research before you write an OP guys- it is embarrassing.
Response to jamzrockz (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to jamzrockz (Original post)
AverageJoe90 This message was self-deleted by its author.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)But this person undoubtedly makes quite a few good points.
Here's what I felt was perhaps the best part of the article(choice parts bolded):
Treating an accused perpetrator as innocent until he is found guilty can be an outgrowth of human decency, not rape culture. Similarly, the belief that men are guilty until proven innocent is misandry, not feminism. Keeping the two separate is important. Feminism is the struggle to reach equality for the sexes. It is not misandry, a bias against males. Sadly, many men forget this because misandrists never identify as such. They will tell you they are simply feminists.
Conflating feminism and misandry like this hurts women as much as it hurts men. Men suffer when misandry is codified, and women suffer by losing male support for the noble goals of feminism. We must remember that this is not a battle of the sexes. Men, remember that feminism means equality not misandry. Women, remember that men are not an enemy entrenched in rape culture. For that matter, remember that rape culture does not exist as misandrists might imagine it. According to a 2002 study, 94 percent of men have never raped and will never rape anyone. We shun sexual assault with the same fervor as women do, for we are allies working toward the same goal.That goal can be realized only if we work together, and for more men to work with us, feminism must shed the misandrist beliefs that hide under its name.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Keep trying!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)the "permanent record" since grade school. Discounting the NSA's datamining, that is.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)I am not going to tell you.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Iggo
(48,195 posts)CTyankee
(64,784 posts)Shudda known...
go Bulldogs...
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)but I cannot find it on the web. It was written in 1926 and appeared, where else, in the Harvard Lampoon; think it was reprinted in "If At All Possible Involve A Cow: A History of College Pranks." Further research indicates it is available, at least in part, here http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19261111&id=ZPNPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1VQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1430,3455660
As a Harvard (Law School) alumnus I naturally found it hilarious.
CTyankee
(64,784 posts)but you can't tell him much!
Harvard Law is great, IMO.
I live in the People's Republic of New Haven and my house is near the Yale Bowl so I will be attending the Princeton game, but Harvard-Yale is away this year...
Yale's got a decent team this year. Hoping for victory, at least for the Harvard game...
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)7-0 against the whole ivy league.
I'm bragging but they make terrible trial lawyers. They never take the time to get to know the judges. And one guy never heard of Hegewisch.
CTyankee
(64,784 posts)hate to say this, but it is true...ya know, Bill and Hillary at Yale Law, Obama at Harvard Law, we'll see what's coming up but....
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)But when you are putting twelve folks in the box, it helps to not think you are the savior of humanity.
CTyankee
(64,784 posts)I just find that crazy...
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Being the smartest does not help you in front of a jury. In communicating to a jury you must communicate at about an 8th grade level.
Also, when an expert is testifying you must appear that you, as well as the jury, are learning something. It enhances the bond you have with the jurors. The I'm just a simple lawyer stuff is trite but it works to an extent. Also, I kinda yarddog the very bright ones pretrial by mispronouncing basic terms, lay on a thick accent and only talk about drinking beer and sports...make them underestimate you.
Kinda inside baseball but class warfare bought my house.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)My best friend is really smart and charismatic and a "proud" high school drop out, convicted felon, that got his GED at age 26. He's now a union steward at his community college. He doesn't own a suit (well, he does but not that anyone would know) ... he wears sweat suits and a backwards baseball cap. He, too, mispronounces basic terms and stops proceedings to ask what "that big word means."
He regularly beats the hell out of the big boy lawyers because he lets them underestimate him. He would have made a great attorney ... but for that ABA screening process.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)They ask me how to do better in grievances but I can't . They know the job and they know their contract cold.
They walk them into deep water, and let the opponent drown. It works.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)All while imploring the really smart attorney guy to not make them look bad.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)can you cite to a single case in which they tried, let alone, prevailed? I can't.
Litigators are a special breed!
CTyankee
(64,784 posts)unless they were perhaps in the ACLU, fighting for the civil rights of people. I have known some and they are lovely and wonderful people....
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)because the Ivy league attorneys that are worth a crap ... are Clerking at the Federal Level or "white shoeing" it, where litigation is so passé?
CTyankee
(64,784 posts)AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Just bad trial lawyers, who tend to be drunks and demagogues. Lord knows I am.
Your point is well taken. They all think they should be federal judges or law faculty. It is one of the things wrong with the federal judiciary.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the joke was: "What do you call 'A' law school students? Your Honor! What do you call 'C' law school students? ... Millionaire!"
I became neither.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)from a wide range of law schools. Success as a litigator takes an ability to strategize on the fly and a quick mind. Those things aren't necessarily measurable by the numbers you have to put up to get into an Ivy League school.
And the punch line to that joke as I heard it was "The A students become law professors, the B students become judges and the C students become millionaires."
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Freshman male college student wants to define what is and isn't, or what should and shouldn't be, feminism. Fascinating.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)without being called a rape apologist.
CTyankee
(64,784 posts)All my life that has been the case...
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)a disproportionate voice at the table is what gave us the problem in the first place and your solution will be to reverse the roles and hope somehow that fixes the problem? I dunno about you, but 2 wrongs does not make a right. We are in this together, the time of one uping each other is over.
Unity, solidarity, victory
gollygee
(22,336 posts)and will continue to. This movement was created because women didn't have a voice, and this movement IS women's voice. Men are still heard more than women in business, politics, religion, pretty much everything. Feminism is a movement for women in reponse to that. No, it isn't about you, and yes women owning and controlling this movement is the sollution.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Remember how the man made of straw needed a brain?
Said no one on this thread, except you.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Misandry doesn't exist, and no one thinks men are guilty until proven innocent. It's all bullshit.
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)I hang out a lot on "Fundies Say". One of our top 100 is from a misandrist who proposes that all males should be castrated. Another memorable poster proclaimed that all PIV is rape. Rare? Absolutely. But you do your own cause no favours by pretending it doesn't exist.
whathehell
(29,629 posts)it's hardly the threat that misogyny is.
I
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i do not get it. why does he need a voice at the table?
i can see supporting women, backing women. but... a voice? that would suggest that men have a better handle or comparable handle on womens issues than women.
isnt that the very issue women have? that men have been the voice of all things women forever?
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)has a daughter, sister, mother, wife, female cousins and also knows that to solve the problem of attaining equal rights for all, his involvement will make for a better and quicker solution. Also remember the dictionary definition of feminism i.e. the fight for the equal rights for both men and women. How can you go about achieving that when you are asking why a man needs a sit at that table.
Or maybe your definition of feminism is different from the dictionary definition of feminism.
Ofc, one doesn't have to be related to a female to know that equal right for all is good. The same way one doesn't have to be black or minority to understand that equal rights for all races is a good thing. And groups like the NAACP gave whites a sit at the table and heavily depended on their activism to bring about the civil right act.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)is also a human's issue and so is a man's issue. This is another reason why the name feminism should be rethought. Its because when you think of it, the first thing that comes to mind is female. It betrays the dictionary definition of feminism just by a gendered name to it.
Its not really a sit, its more like a corner stool at the table.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)OK so with that, tell me how this isn't about men wanting to redefine feminism. You don't want it to be about women, and you even want to change the name to reflect that. My God. It so isn't about you, and you don't get to make that decision. This is why women are afraid to have men have a seat at the table - they try to take over and redefine and neuter the whole movement. Men who can be at the table and sit and participate and support without taking over have always been welcome. Men who want to redefine and reallly end feminism (which is what redefining it to mean "women and men's rights" and changing the name to reflect that is) really aren't welcome, and aren't likely to be.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)wowsers.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,375 posts)jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)and her definition of feminism is the one I am going by.
"For the record, feminism by definition is: 'The belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. It is the theory of the political, economic and social equality of the sexes,'"
And even you would have to agree that having such a gendered name and then asking men to join the movement because it is for both sexes can be very confusing. I am just suggesting that if the feminists at the UN are trying to rebrand feminism, they can start by changing the name. Its just my opinion and they don't have to listen to me.
Sorry but nobody is trying to take over anything. People just want to make sure that in an attempt to right a wrong, we don't make things unreasonably difficult for one side.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)It is about the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities - AND THAT IT ISN'T CURRENTLY THE CASE. That women need more rights to make that happen, therefore it is a movement to fight for women's rights.
It is a gendered movement. Men who are confused about that don't belong in the movement. No one is trying to "rebrand feminism" to make it stop being feminism.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)But the heforshe campaign over at the UN is trying to do just that i.e. rebrand feminism to bring more guys into the movement. Look it up, its the top search for feminism on google
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Why don't you go to heforshe.org and take the pledge:
The HeForShe Commitment
Gender equality is not only a womens issue, it is a human rights issue that requires my participation. I commit to take action against all forms of violence and discrimination faced by women and girls.
I agree
It's about discriminiation faced by women and girls. It's asking men to work for that human rights issue. It is not about rebranding feminism to make it not specifically about women and girls.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)Quite frankly, I am not for meaningless online petition signing, hashtag activism and such. I live it in my daily life and that is the way I show my support.
Have you listened to the speech she gave during the inauguration of the campaign? in it they talked about issues facing women and men and that feminism was about righting those wrongs. The new and improved feminism is about everyone now, not just the female gender.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)The way you see it is not the way it is. Feminism is a women's movement, always has been, and always will be, and Emma Watson said that as well. You heard what you wanted to hear, and not what was said.
You have some serious work to do if you want to be a part of the feminism movement. I suggest a good place to start might be googling "feminism 101."
Good luck.
MattBaggins
(7,939 posts)yet you love to go ong and on about "dictionary definitions" as if one fucking sentence has fuck all to do with such a complex issue and movement.
MattBaggins
(7,939 posts)Feminism is still very much about women.
MattBaggins
(7,939 posts)that the "reverse racism" and "christian persecution" liars put forth.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)human issue. zillions of years of oppressions. laws restricting women. even today.
and it should not be about women, but humans.
kinda, as a part of the voice of feminism, just took feminism out of the hands of women. you think?
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Like this report out of the UK that men who have prostate cancer get "second-rate NHS care" compared to women who have breast cancer.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2775901/Prostate-patients-second-rate-NHS-care-Report-says-sufferers-far-likely-receive-latest-drugs-looked-specialist-nurses.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490
Even in this country you had feminists that successfully got extra perks for women in Obamacare.
I'm not quite sure how this supports the idea of "gender equality." It appears to be more about advocating for more perks for women and intentionally writing men out.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)and you thinking that is a good example of why feminism is still needed.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Women get care based on evidence. Men get care based on evidence. Some care for men (certain prostate screening) was removed from coverage because it was shown to be of no benefit, and other prostate screenings were more effective for routine use. Women's care and screening gets adjusted as needed (for example, the frequency of pap screenings was recently reduced for some women, and the initial age and subsequent frequency of mammography so often a lot of women have no idea when they're supposed to start) for similar reasons.
This is not a perk. This is better science and more data resulting in better care.
Anybody arguing otherwise is presenting misinformation, either for ideological reasons or because they do not understand the underlying medical reasoning.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)You had NO idea about any of this? Okay...
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Because we all know you guys get a raw deal because men habitually delay or refuse to see doctors. And then they complain women "get" more here, LOL.
MattBaggins
(7,939 posts)whathehell
(29,629 posts)women have been getting "second rate care" relative to men for ages, especially when it
comes to things like Heart Disease.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)most people who spew this crap pretend to be supportive for a while longer, LOL.
Nice to see you again
The seat in the corner- best idea you have had on this thread- go for it!
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)the feminist banner to believe in equal rights for women. Ofc, anything other than that and you want to dismantle the idea of feminism. I want to give it a facelift and take it into the 21st century. The genders are now allies and not adversaries, it time for the name to reflect that.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and that betrays some seriously deep ignorance on the subject. Sorry- no seat at our table for you, not even in the corner.
I do believe you're just trying to toss a wrench in the works- and it's so very transparent it's actually funny. No one who is seriously interested in equality for women is buying what you are selling. As radical and faux helpful as you might actually think you appear? Well, you actually aren't either, LOL.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)I just hope you take some thing out of the article in the OP. This is not a wind up cos I truly believe the movement should adopt a new and softer approach towards men and give some men(maybe not me) a sit at the table.
Its time for me hit the books. I hope nobody alerts me cos I think I have been very civil in my discussion in this thread.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and when you do that, we can give you some more assignments. Like the college freshman who wrote that piece, you both have a LOT of learning to do before you can speak to feminists from an informed POV. That would be awesome.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)particularly with regard to the presumption of innocence that should apply in all criminal cases. There was a lot of BS to wade through to get to that point and the comments made me want to don a hazmat suit.
MattBaggins
(7,939 posts)whathehell
(29,629 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)is about equal rights with an understanding that, in order to achieve that, we have to promote women's rights. The "fem" at the beginning makes it clear that it's about fighting for women's rights.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)how us feminists are simply being unfair to men, cause we address womens issues. you know. the very men that call themselves feminists. as they tell us feminists we are not real feminists. and what our concerns should be. how we should think. what issues we should discuss, and how we discuss. and do not forget tone.
yada yada yada
LostInAnomie
(14,428 posts)Brigid
(17,621 posts)That it isn't their problem. What is this about their wanting a voice in the discussion now?
CTyankee
(64,784 posts)jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)call to action at the UN has something to do with it. You want to involve men with feminism but you insist they sit quietly at the corner and not voice their opinion.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)By putting pressure on other men not to rape. After 56 years of mansplaining and "tips to avoid rape," I'm out of patience.I've got socks older than this Princeton guy. And how many times have women been told to sit in the corner and shut up? See my sig for further details.
treestar
(82,383 posts)what's what.
I mean that's the idea. They think their ideas are much more important than the women's - this is built into our society.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)He listened and then tried to voice his concerns about a law that might screw innocent men. This is the time to speak up and that is exactly what he did. Some people are still fighting the injustices committed by men long dead, those people should realize that most people alive today are on their side, and they want to be treated fairly and their opinions considered when crafting laws that will affect them.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Thousands of years of laws (or way of looking at the laws) that screwed innocent women, and now we have to worry about the poor men maybe not being able to get away with it.
These laws are not supposed to "screw innocent men" and a supporter of feminism would not see that as their purpose.
IOW, we are to worry about the poor men first, not thousands of years of oppression of women. Make a little progress on that, and we are to listen to the men say how unfair it is to them. After all they deserve equally to be heard, right? And it's not equal if they don't get to talk 50% of the time.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)It sucks but some men refused to be punished because of the sins of their fathers. They insist on fighting for a justice system that would give them the presumption on innocence when accused of a heinous crime like rape. Its time for the pendulum of justice to stop swinging side to side.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)this is not a yesterday issue
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)I have heard the numbers are high and I truly feel for all those women who could not get justice from the justice system. But at the same time, its no reason to set up a system that puts men at a disadvantage from the get go.
Another thing most people do not understand is that, men are very disgusted by rapists, even lowlifes think of rapists are scum. Add to that anyone with a sister, daughter, mother is likely not going to spare anyone they think committed a rape. Add again to it the pressure on police and DA's to fill the prison system with inmates just confuses me why this number is so high. The police and the justice system want nothing more than you screw you and lock you up for life, they ain't going to let some rapist off so easily
This is just one of the many videos of what happens when someone is falsely accused of rape which somehow is missing from your graphic like its something that never ever happens. But apart from the torment they get from other inmates, their lives is never the same even after they are exonerated
To me
"Is It Better That Ten Guilty Persons Go Free Than That One Innocent Person Be Convicted?"
gollygee
(22,336 posts)for every innocent person convicted. Way more than 10.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that.
you do not bother putting in the time ot educate yourself. you want to dismiss facts. ignore what you are given and you want us to listen? no.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)with facts. Also, I would assume that the number you showed me were talking about rape accusations which the compiler assumed were true. Which means accusation like the Duke lacrosse case was probably part of the 40 that got arrested. You got to show me real numbers from law enforcement websites and stuff for me to believe those unbelievable high numbers.
It sucks but we know how easily statistics can be manipulated to say whatever we want.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Last edited Thu Oct 2, 2014, 08:53 PM - Edit history (1)
you would recognize i do not confuse statistics with facts.
and no. i am not here to educate you. you go educate yourself. there are plenty of source. i dont gotta do a damn thing
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)or a link to the website so I can do my own investigation. I look at the world we live in and even as how fucked up it is, I just cannot believe 3 out of 100 rapists get jail time.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Read up, it is very sad.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)dudes who are barely aware of our history telling us what we have been doing wrong, LOL....
Then he might be a tad embarrassed.
MattBaggins
(7,939 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"but I truly find it hard to believe those numbers..."
Seems to be human nature to consciously disbelieve that which invalidates our biases.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and be belived automatically?
MattBaggins
(7,939 posts)It has barely budged from the one side since the dawn of mankind.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)the women in attendance were right to view him as ignorant.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)"Peer reviewed" and go on a bit about how valid it is? I figured out what was up when I saw that.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)MattBaggins
(7,939 posts)How much of a voice should whites have in black organizations?
How much of a voice should non Jews have in Jewish groups?
whathehell
(29,629 posts)but that doesn't compel anyone to listen to her.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)By name please. And precisely when did they that? And in what context?
Or is this like one of those Fox News generalized "some people say" sort of shotgun statements?
Just askin'.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Misandry, misandry, tastes like candy
Put it in a big bowl, it's just fine and dandy
Girls rule, boys drool, they taught me that in school,
Misandry, misandry, Kiss my big fat fanny!
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)I hang out on "Fundies Say" a lot and every so often, we get an outright misandrist post submitted.
alarimer
(16,474 posts)If someone violates the code of conduct at a university (and that included allegations), just suspend them until the case is heard in court.
The rest of this is fucking bullshit. Feminist my ass.
treestar
(82,383 posts)as a white person about race, and getting slapped down for it, rightfully so.
"men feel marginalized" - hey that's actually an education for them if they really feel that way. Maybe that'll help them get it. They are used to being in charge and feel bad they aren't, but then that's the whole point here.
It's like white people who don't want to be called racists - hard to complain about that, or it's too minor a complaint to consider in comparison with people who are the ones oppressed by racism.
Demit
(11,238 posts)It's typical of the other, many, very hostile comments that follow the article. I assume they are written by Princeton students. So much for the younger generation casting off the myths & prejudices of earlier times!
"FrillArtist 4 hours ago
Biggest load of rubbish I have ever read. The basis of feminism is male hatred at its finest. Over and over again, we see that feminists will seek to stir up hatred towards men on the basis of any statistical differences (mostly imagined) that might be found between men and women, .
For example, if more men are found working in a bar than women, the feminists will argue that there is a 'glass ceiling' that prevents women from taking up this job, but if there are more women than men working in it, then they will argue that the pay is too low compared to other more male-dominated jobs.
Either way, they will stir up hatred towards men.
These men-hating feminists will always attempt to stir up male hatred whatever the situation. It does not matter who gets paid more, these so called "women" will use any differences to stir up hatred towards men.
Feminists will always twist the evidence and the facts to demonise men. And they will do this, basically, for two reasons:
Firstly, most of the leading feminists are severely dysfunctional 'women'. And, in many cases, it is quite clear from their past histories and their rhetoric that they positively hate men - in some cases, perhaps with some justification as a result of experience.
Secondly, there are now, literally, billions of dollars, numerous empires, and millions of government jobs that depend on the public swallowing the idea that women need to be defended from men in some way or other. And the feminists (together with many others) can only maintain these luxuries by continually stirring up hatred toward - and a fear of - men.
However, I don't hate these feminists. I actually feel bad for them because they are simply operating based on their primal biological inhibitions. Woman, by it's very nature, is driven to seek drama. It is what they live for. What they thrive for. It should come as no surprise to any man that male hatred is the very basis of feminism."
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... this should light up the Bat signal.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)But pretending the misandrist outliers don't exist doesn't help anyone.
MattBaggins
(7,939 posts)Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)but denying he and the damage he does exists doesn't help the case of Christianity. In the same way, denying the few misandrists and the damage they cause doesn't help the cause of feminism. If we genuinely want to treat all people equally, then we have to accept that there are a few nutters in both genders. To deny that women are capable of prejudice, hatred or callousness, the frequent claim that "if women ruled, there would never be a war", is just as sexist as claiming that all women are inferior. It may be sexism in a flattering direction but it is still not treating all equally, it's simply reversing which gender is treated more favorably.
Necessary caveat: Please note that I am categorically not saying the misandrists are anything more than a tiny, if irritatingly loud, fraction of modern feminism.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)effecting anything in rl?
you have two individuals that said something extreme. and that damages feminism? two unknown people no one here knows anything about. that you read on some board. and all of feminism must take ownership of it?
hey... the supposed palins who claim to be feminists cause more damage in the real world
the men that claim to be feminists but do nothing but disrupt the discussion and are destructive to the movement cause more damage to feminism.
the couple people you mentioned?
where is this supposed damage?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)are the ones that want women to take a back seat to their brand of feminism. that is not really feminism. humanism, lets change the whole damn name, redefine, and allow the men to lead and fix it.
this is a fuckin joke.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)Do you think we should be racist to white people to right the wrongs of their forefathers? Maybe fix the law in such a way to make it easier to convict a white person for alleged crimes against me just on the count that I am black. Why stop there, why not increase the sentence for crimes against me by a white person.
Racism against anyone, black, white, brown, yellow or whatever is wrong and we should all be against it.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)or institutional misandry, and people who bring either of those up are just trying to further victimize minorities and feminists.
Response to NuclearDem (Reply #98)
Post removed
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)And given how women are still paid less than men, have to deal with slut-shaming, don't get rape cases treated seriously, and have only their bodies regulated, yes, there absolutely is institutional misogyny.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)misogynist policies towards women. I hope we are talking about US and not some middle east countries. Cos last I've heard, we have laws against wage discrimination, laws against rapes etc etc.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)alone that seat in the corner you have been eyeballing. Seriously, dilettantes need not apply. The thoughts off the top of your head- not valuable, actually.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)it's a talking point for anti-feminists.
Also, anyone who writes this kind of nonsense:
completely lacks standing to complain about feminists not including him and his fellow travelers.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)play our games without having to consider our misogyny???? i mean. really?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)JTFrog
(14,274 posts)Some guys have binders full of socks around here.
Just sayin....
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)somebody mentioned a video that was put up. more like that. vague. but, ya... by here. certainly.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)does the OP writer share the same concern that the preponderance of the evidence standard has/will increase the likelihood of false civil judgments?
boston bean
(36,420 posts)LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Oh god, just for laughs I googled the little shit and he looks EXACTLY how I pictured him. This is NOT A COMPLIMENT.
http://about.me/newby
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Poor kid thought he was the first to think of that too. LOL.
*patting them on their fluffy little heads*
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Read first, then reply.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Response to LeftyMom (Reply #139)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)it;s fair to call it ageism either. Kid has got a LOT to learn. So does the OP, he admits it here in this thread.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)If that can't work then apparently the oppression of Princeton undergrads (so wealthy and oppressed!) is an acceptable stand-in.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Same as he DUers here, they really should know better to lecture experienced people- when they have none, and are fucking winging it.
Jeeze.
ProfessorGAC
(69,449 posts)There can't be a better comment in this thread than LeftyMom's. Young kid who think he has everything figured out. Generally the marker of an opinion worth ignoring.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)in case they self-delete the OP to lock the thread, now that they're blocked from posting in it anymore for having a post hidden.
Keep misandry out of feminism [View all]
By Newby Parton Contributing Columnist October 1, 2014
I am a feminist, so the first words I spoke at a recent town hall meeting on the new sexual assault procedures were in praise of the Universitys speedy response to the new Title IX regulations. Victims of sexual assault will now have a clearer understanding of their options. They can be advised by outside counsel at meetings. Professional investigator-judges have replaced student judges, so victims can step forward without embarrassment. Our compliance marks a huge victory for women on campus, and were all better off as a result.
I voiced a single worry at the town hall meeting: that the new preponderance of the evidence standard will, definitionally, increase the likelihood of false convictions. Unknowingly, I had struck a hole into a dam. Cries of rape culture spewed forth
snip
But this is an important conversation, and all ideas should be heard. A few women have turned the dialogue into a battle against men and women, and in doing so I fear that they will turn men away from feminism. Men feel marginalized when our worries about a real, higher risk of wrongful suspension are disregarded. Attributing these worries to rape culture only distances us further because we begin to think that this is what feminism has become a bias against males that mistakes all male viewpoints for oppression.
Treating an accused perpetrator as innocent until he is found guilty can be an outgrowth of human decency, not rape culture. Similarly, the belief that men are guilty until proven innocent is misandry, not feminism. Keeping the two separate is important. Feminism is the struggle to reach equality for the sexes. It is not misandry, a bias against males. Sadly, many men forget this because misandrists never identify as such. They will tell you they are simply feminists.
http://dailyprincetonian.com/opinion/2014/10/keep-misandry-out-of-feminism/
Just an article I read and really enjoyed that shows a different side of feminism. The kind of feminism that can recapture the imagination of the general public.
Read, comment and Enjoy.
betsuni
(27,254 posts)Are they shy? If they exist, why is there never evidence except for "My uncle's friend's cousin's fishing buddy's wife has a cousin who met a logger who saw one once." Like the Sasquatch. But I suppose that's beside the point. They don't need to exist. No need to put real worms on the hook when you have fake bait, whatever they're called, I don't care for fishing.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)with that, when talking about the dreaded misandry
betsuni
(27,254 posts)but they don't even know it. It would be more interesting talking to a Sasquatch. At least it would say something new.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)accountable. I have been blamed for being raped. I have been shunned by the community for being raped. I have been told I wanted it. I have been called numerous vile names. I have been called a liar for telling. I have been expected to "put out" since I was raped, because I was raped. I have been sexually assaulted by family, by strangers and each time I was told it was my fault.
This okayness with rape has to stop! Rape itself has to stop. Rape is a theft of a human life.
Men, if you don't force yourself on women then stand up for us, too many of you remain silent!
Males, who force yourselves on women, get a grip on yourselves, learn real self control, learn that if you are not welcome then you can't have it! Women are not possessions for you to take at will!
Women, for goodness sakes, stick up for your sisters! Too many of you jump on the victim-blaming victim-shaming bandwagon.
We, who have lived through these traumatic experiences are damaged, stunned, afraid, angry, saddened. It takes us much compassion and a long time to heal from these deep psychic gouges.
We all have the right to be innocent until proven guilty, that is the american tradition. But we also have the right to be safe in our persons. We are equal, that we are not equal is an illusion. No one person has the right to take anything from another.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)while normally considered a good thing in our society, is called out by some as a product of the "rape culture" when it comes to that particular crime. I found it odd (no, honestly I didn't really find it odd) that lots of people have something to say about misogyny and misandry but no one seems to want to address the particular issue you mention in the post.
LostInAnomie
(14,428 posts)Universities investigating sexual assault is idiotic. It should be handled by a police dept. not connected to the University. By allowing the University to set the rules it allows a vested interest to interfere with justice. It is especially horrendous when they allow students to be the adjudicators.
What the author is describing is institutionalized prejudice. In most circumstances, this is considered to be the worst kind of offense when it comes to social justice. The "preponderance of the evidence" standard almost ensures that innocent people will be falsely convicted of rapes they did not commit. And, since the majority of people accused of rape are men, it means that most of these innocent people will be men. This should cause anyone pause, but for some reason more and more universities are pushing ahead with it.
When the rights of the accused and innocence until proven guilty are discounted because the accused is a man, it is without a doubt misandry. Sadly, I'm not surprised people on DU disagree.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)"Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" is absurd. "Preponderance of the evidence" is obviously the way to roll.
Clearly, this Newby guy should be mocked.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)These aren't criminal proceedings, so yes he should be mocked.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Your short history here and the link above to one of your previous comments makes it clear you are not here to debate in good faith. Let me guess, you are a dude.