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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBen Affleck Slams Bill Maher for "Racist," "Ugly" Views in Heated Islam Debate
Ben Affleck and Bill Maher clearly have differing views on Islam.
The Gone Girl star appeared on Friday's Real Time With Bill Maher, and the two sparred when Affleck felt Maher and guest Sam Harris were painting an overly broad and negative picture of those who practice Islam.
Affleck did not appreciate Harris' comment that Americans have been "sold this meme of Islamophobia." Affleck responded by asking Harris, "Hold on — are you the person who officially understands the codified doctrine of Islam?"
Read more Darren Aronofsky's 'Noah' Is Being Used in ISIS Newsletters "To Make a Point, Which Is Hilarious"
"It's gross, it's racist," Affleck added about Maher and Harris' remarks. "It's like saying, 'Oh, you shifty Jew.' " Maher told Affleck that he wasn't actually listening to them
https://tv.yahoo.com/news/ben-affleck-slams-bill-maher-racist-ugly-views-180607298.html
Ben is right...Maher is scum.
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Archae
(47,245 posts)To put it mildly.
Anti-vaxxer and denies that germs cause disease.
Paladin
(32,354 posts)
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)
amuse bouche
(3,672 posts)Ben was in a roid rage and utterly wrong
2banon
(7,321 posts)
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)only religion that deals with a fanatical element. All three of the monotheistic traditions have rabid zealots. I always find Maher fascinatingly myopic when it comes to his criticism of religions. He goes after fundamentalists very selectively.
Paladin
(32,354 posts)What I have a problem with is his evidently growing alignment with those right-wingers who think the only way to deal with radical Islam is to wipe the whole religion off the planet. I think that's exactly what he was working toward espousing on his show last week, and I think Affleck did a great job of calling him on it.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)majority of Muslim population are not liberal democracies.
Many goverments foster religious extremism to pit certain factions against another.
In the west we have a stronger sense of liberal democracy, rule of law, and civil rights. We have been better at dealing withreligious extremism and violence like we see in the ME and today it would not be tolerated. There are always going to be exceptions to this.
When a country is theocratic and authoritarian religious violence will accur. We have 2000 years of Christian and 1400 years of Islamic history to prove this.
There is plenty of legit criticism of religion and tgat includes Islam, but we must never fall into the pattern that targets one group of people and paints them all with the same brush.
I think it is fair to say that Islam today would benefit from a reformation like Christianity had 500 years ago, and it might not be a bad idea for other religions to consider the same.
2banon
(7,321 posts)In particular Christianity, Hebrew and Muslim Religions. Each religion has spawned crazy, blood thirsty, war mongering fundamentalism, and oh they're all fascist to the core, afaic.
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)The joining thread between all of those groups is this: Asshats who want power.
2banon
(7,321 posts)than a mythological source of "authority".
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)Scientology is based of a crappy book by a science fiction writer, so what does that tell you about sheeple? How many people did Jim Jones kill with his line of bullcrap?
Joe Turner
(930 posts)among the religions you'd like to completely abolish globally. Let's just boil life down to "sh*t happens" and leave it at that. Anyone with a different view needs to be exorcised.
cali
(114,904 posts)because the poster didn't say that all religions need to be abolished. the poster said all religious states should be abolished.
2banon
(7,321 posts)
2banon
(7,321 posts)
DemocratSinceBirth
(101,853 posts)There are a lot of instances in modern history where leaders have behaved very badly without any help from God:
Pol Pot
Idi Amin
Mao
Hitler
Stalin
for starters...
madokie
(51,076 posts)the people who wear their religion on their sleeve is the ones I worry with the most and avoid like the plague. I've been ripped off by so called good Christians more than I have by just people like me who don't believe in a god or a heaven or hell. People like me who are non religious do not and I repeat do not think about how we can con, steal, sneak around and do or any of that shit. We deal with life as it comes in an honest way day in and day out, the way we want to be treated and thats it.
onecent
(6,096 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)The difference between Islam and Christianity is that historically Christian countries have become increasingly liberal, democratic and secular over the course of the past three centuries thanks to social and economic conditions that don't exist in predominantly Muslim societies. The reason the West is largely secular has to do with the Protestant reformation and the establishment of democratic institutions like parliaments and the establishment of constitutional government and the Industrial Revolution and the spread of literacy and the rise of living standards. Much of the Muslim world still has a quasi-tribal social organisation with weak central governments, low levels of literacy, and economic models based around subsistence farming and herding.
PAProgressive28
(270 posts)Every religion has gone through their era of issues. Right now it's the Muslims turn. 
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)expecting Muslims to be as secular and enlightened as the liberal West when they haven't had the sort of social and economic development that leads there is pretty ignorant, really. Just like the USA expecting it can spread democracy where there's no history of it.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)is that they aren't civilized, and we shouldn't expect them to act any better?
How the fuck is that not bigoted?
Seriously, I would expect any human being on this planet to, at the very least, at the fucking minimum, talking about bare concrete floor baseline, to respect the rights of other people to live and not have there civil and human rights violated. Are you saying this is too much to ask of Muslims?
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)my argument is that their society is at a different stage than ours is and has developed in different ways. Pretending that's not the case is just stupid. (It's possible for "civilisation" to take different forms; the idea that Western cultural norms are more inherently "civilised" is arguably a lot more bigoted.)
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)States after all.
There isn't a "Muslim" civilization that is singular or monolithic, instead what we see is a great regression in many nations that happened because of failed decolonization policies of the 20th century. These policies gave no regard to ethnic, religious, or cultural differences in the nations created, is it any surprise that most of the nations that are so much in the grip of fundamentalist, militant Islam are also countries that were decolonized(particularly by Britain).
Combine this with continued meddling by western nations, propping up of secular dictators, who were, in many cases, the only way these new nations could be held together at all, and you see huge regressions in the advancements of human rights in many Muslim nations.
The issue isn't Islam, but the levels of religiosity that exist in nations. Uganda and other nations in Africa provide an example of failed decolonization policies and examples of western meddling and religious extremism, just not all of it is necessarily Muslim.
Secularism and liberal, enlightenment principles in human rights are a counter to this, and should be fostered in these countries internally, with external pressure being subtle and hopefully economically based, with military adventures being limited to defense and deterrence.
Oh, and I will, with no problem say that most "Western" values and cultural norms in relation to human, civil and political rights are superior and more civilized than those of many of these nations. If that's bigoted, I'm glad to be a bigot. I fucking hate culture relativists.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Western governments destabilising and toppling secular dictatorships in Middle Eastern and Muslim countries has probably contributed significantly to the rise of fundamentalist governments. Those secular dictatorships, such as they were? They may not have been free or democratic except in the most hollow of forms (with powerless representative assemblies, etc) but they also provided the form and structure needed for democratic institutions to eventually take shape in the form of those assemblies and of government ministries staffed by Western-educated secular party loyalists (look at what a disaster de-Baathification has been in Iraq, for instance). Remove a Saddam, or a Qaddafi, and what happens? You create a power vacuum that fundamentalist groups with a largely tribal social structure move in to fill. Western interference in the Middle East over the last century, since the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, has in a lot of cases seemingly served to retard social progress in various ways. Lots of unintended consequences.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)if any self rule, with whatever educated elite that existed fleeing before the transition, with infrastructures that were built to service empires, not local concerns, and then those same empires are all like, "you guys are too expensive to keep, you are free now, after we extracted all we could from your land!". So you have deprived local resources, poorly constructed and maintained infrastructures, hardly any historical backdrop for self governance much less democracy. This is simply unstable from the outset.
That's why, in much of the mid 20th century, you had so many wars and revolutions in these new countries, some of them having governments form and collapse in months, and this being continual. Tribalism took the place of the nationalism before it, and other loyalties, to religions, etc. also take precedence.
But, and I think this is were are disagreement comes from, I don't see this as an excuse for atrocious behavior, there is no excuse for Muslims in ISIL or whatever they call themselves to attack and kill Christians and Yazidis, along with other Muslims. Saudi Arabia has no excuses for have a completely arbitrary justice system built on a book that is itself filled with atrocities and injustices.
Its an explanation for how our current world looks geo-politically, and should serve as cautionary tales when trying to assist those who advocate for human rights worldwide.
We should move beyond the provincial and think globally.
I don't believe that our concern for human rights should stop at the border of our towns, counties, states or nations. Human rights, civil rights, and political rights are a global concern.
As such, while today I work towards the goal of having same sex marriage legalized in my own state, I also look forward to hoping it will happen in Riyadh, sometime in my lifetime as well, and helping to work towards that goal in the future. While fighting against efforts to restrict voting rights in my state, and making the process more accountable, verifiable and transparent, I also hope that voting rights will be extended in Beijing someday, with multi-party elections that are transparent and democratic.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)these Western ideals you're championing? Those weren't a norm until very recently, historically speaking. (Ask the Native Americans or African-Americans or Jews or Irish etc about that.)
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)but things are improving, too slowly for my taste.
But I have no problem with pointing out that they are better applied for all people than just a few.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)to come here with WMDs, bomb our Malls, homes and steal our resources. If they reach maximum equality with us, they can torture our men, women and children, drive millions into refugee camps in Canada and Mexico, then claim they brought us 'democracy'.
Their society is the way it is because of Imperial brutality, it has been under the thumb of one Western Empire or another for centuries.
Churchill, who represents OUR stage of development, wanted to drop Chemical Weapons on the entire ME and wipe them all out totally, that way his Empire at the time, could just go in and take THEIR resources without having to bother with the 'subhumans' who lived there.
I wonder if people who have absorbed the bigotry of Western Imperial powers have ever even talked to people whose countries they have destroyed over and over again, ever visited them. My cousin eg, used to go to Iraq to shop in Baghdad. He thought the people were just wonderful. Never heard him say they were not up to our standards. They had their own, some better than ours in fact. Education eg, they were way more educated than the average person here.
They had their own culture. Maybe if people here knew something about history, they wouldn't appear to be so ignorant to the rest of the world.
I am proud to say I have known some beautiful, in spirit and in every other way, Muslim women. Educated, brilliant, mothers, doctors etc. We definitely have had some intense and apparently very successful propaganda regarding an awful lot of other human beings.
Marr
(20,317 posts)This is very odd, isn't it?
cwydro
(51,308 posts)ISIS seem to be pretty attuned to this century.
Using YouTube to show off their be headings.
Got no use for that religion...women are second class citizens ugh.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)JI7
(93,617 posts)and recently i have read about both countries. there was a time around the 50s to 70s when there was hope in both countries. things were being modernized but outside powers went in and put and end to it and the problems continue to this day. much of it had to do with the cold war.
but after the cold war ended there should have been an international effor to help all the nations where the wars were being fought. simlar to the marshall plan after wwII .
but instead they were just left on their own and we see what happened and they continue to deal with those problems.
melman
(7,681 posts)Maybe in a few more centuries it will all work out.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)was one of the most advanced on the planet.
I'm not enough of a student of history to know why things shifted, but I'm sure Crusades and other Western interventions didn't help.
I still think, as far as Bill Maher is concerned, that he's way off base using such a broad brush to negatively paint a couple billion human beings world-wide.
mountain grammy
(29,035 posts)Something that seems to happen with every religion.
whathehell
(30,469 posts)unlike Christian Europe, they never had a Renaissance.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)"Some" are wrong. 
They might read this: http://islamichistoryonline.com/islamic-golden-age/
Who's to say that our "Christian" civilization won't devolve in the same way? We may not have Sharia law now, but I'm sure some of our more rabid right-wing fundy friends wouldn't fight such a concept.
whathehell
(30,469 posts)The Western culture of Europe had a golden age; there was a classical civilization of far reaching empire, engineering achievement, appreciation of the arts, etc. It was the time of ancient Rome. Then there was a decline in the Dark and some of the Middle Ages and then rebirth - our Renaissance.
The Islamic Golden Age came later and declined later. Your link says it declined after the 13th century... fine! Where is the Islamic Renaissance? The world is dealing with groups of people who want to recreate the Caliphate in its original 7th century form, with slavery, degradation of women, beheadings and other archaic practices that the rest of the world has grown out of.
The world needs an Islamic Age of Enlightenment.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Not that it really matters anyway, because the Reformation came after the start of the Renaissance, and Catholics and Protestants were butchering each other for years to come.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)Everyone has done their share of being enlightened, and then...not so much.
still_one
(98,883 posts)Distinguished the fu damentalists from mainstream
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)and deny women rights to 'god' in the priesthood because they are dirty sexual things that do things to things....
how idiotic to describe other religions as best or worst. They are all insane man made shit ups.
Logical
(22,457 posts)LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)too many people associate Muslim with terrorism and violence and he is fluffing that up in his ignorant way. What a stupid after his Religiousitymonstrosity movie thing he did.
Of course he can say whatever, but I can call him an ignorant asshole fuckturd. because I can say whatever too.
Logical
(22,457 posts)LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)yeh sure, say it. I care nothing about you thinking of ME. This is not about You or Me. But you want it to be because that is all you have, school yard tactics for a supposed grown up?
Logical
(22,457 posts)LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)
pangaia
(24,324 posts)who has an obsession with masturbating in public.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)and whole countries where nearly every single female has had that happen to them......
whathehell
(30,469 posts)to deny reality in favor of political correctness, one really
doesn't see that in Western cultures, does one?
"Honor killings" of women and girls by family members doesn't seem to
to be popular here either 
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Most Muslims around the world would not be considered white.
Mister Nightowl
(396 posts)Sam Harris: "We have been sold this meme of Islamophobia, where every criticism of the doctrine of Islam gets conflated with bigotry toward Muslims as people."
Replace Islamophobia with anti-semitism, where any criticism of Israeli governmental policy gets conflated with bigotry toward Jews as people.
The irony inherent in Harris' statement is off the charts! 
closeupready
(29,503 posts)He's been at that bigotry for a LONG time now. Those surprised by that are only those who haven't been paying attention.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)The screeds he put out this summer cheering on the deaths of thousands of Palestinians were telling. My husband and I watched last night's show and were shocked at the "arguments" coming from Maher and Harris. They sounded for all the world like Birchers protesting that they aren't racist -- just pointing out the "facts" that African Americans commit more crimes, have lower IQs, etc, etc. to me, this kind of quasi-intellectual racism is the most pernicious kind.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)witty, astute in many things.
Today for me he is an Asshole Idiot with major problems with women along with this one.
Fuck ya, Bll. Buck ya Fill.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)He's been really supportive of Detroit, and now putting that pos Maher in his place.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)Always liked him for that. Not so much for some of his movies, but that is so trivial.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)but he's a quality person for sure
progressoid
(53,179 posts)
ReRe
(12,189 posts)I thought Ben was going to have a heart attack. It's tough to sit at a table with bigots. Granted, it was HBO, so he couldn't get up and walk out. But I have been in situations like that before and got up and walked out (Republican in-laws. 
)
Shoulders of Giants
(370 posts)melman
(7,681 posts)But you'll never convince most of the people here of that. It's bizarre.
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)There's a vast difference between condemning the extremist elements of any religion and what Maher did, which was paint all Muslims as religious extremists. From the transcript:
AFFLECK: They don't.
MAHER: That's just not true, Ben. That's just not true. You're trying to say that these few people, that's all the problem is, these few bad apples. The idea that someone should be killed if they leave the Islamic
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025619864
Fuck Bill Maher. He's a fucking bigoted piece of shit...
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)ReRe
(12,189 posts)You must have misunderstood what I said. And now, I am having trouble understanding your question. Let's call it even.
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)I don't really care one way or another about Ben Affleck, but I do think he was right on this issue.
Maher IS an asshole, who is some times funny, who some times says clever things, who some times says things I agree with. Overall though, yes, he is scum. Overly rich, overly entitled, bigoted, inconsiderate, selfish.
I don't know many Muslims, but I know lots and lots of people. Regardless of our religious background, skin color, gender, sexual orientation or whatever... people are people. You've got good people and you've got assholes, and you've got tons of in between. I don't imagine that those who follow Islam are any different in that regard. Some of the fanatical Christians I've met are just as eager to kill those they call "towelheads" as the fanatical Muslims are to kill Americans.
The reality is... most of us just want to live our lives in peace, to live and prosper within our own lives, homes, and families... if we can. If we are allowed to. We almost never are.
Shoulders of Giants
(370 posts)Its not like he woke up one day and decided to insult Muslims for no good reason. It is a fact that hundreds of Millions of Muslims do not support basic human rights for many groups of people. Bill Maher is defending liberal values against this worldview. Noone here seems to mind when Bill Maher does this same thing vs Christianity. Why is it different when fundamentalist Islam goes against human rights? I choose to support human rights against any form of fundamentalism.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)YMMV.
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)Its not like he woke up one day and decided to insult Muslims for no good reason. It is a fact that hundreds of Millions of Muslims do not support basic human rights for many groups of people.
Really? A fact? Care to cite a source on that one?
Noone here seems to mind when Bill Maher does this same thing vs Christianity.
I do.
A younger, more impulsive me would tell you to take your broad brush and go paint a new double yellow line in traffic. Now, I'd just suggest you just grow emotionally as a person. Well, assuming I cared.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)People need to stand up to extreme bigots and hypocrites like Maher and Harris.
amuse bouche
(3,672 posts)and of course utter bullshit 
Shoulders of Giants
(370 posts)Bill Maher has probably spent far more of his career attacking Christianity ( a religion far more likely to be practiced by white people in America), so Ben Affleck's racism charges don't carry much weight. If you read the Koran, you can see it very clearly supports barbaric actions against many groups including women, homosexuals, and non believers. To be fair, the Bible does also. However, the majority of Christians have never read the Bible, and have little clue of the rape, genocide, slavery, child murder supporting stuff that its in it. Thank God for that, or we would be in even bigger trouble here in the Bible belt.
The difference between Christianity and Islam isn't the holy book. The books are more similiar than they are different in my opinion. Its the fact that the Islamic world has more followers who actually follow what the holy book says and aren't "cafeteria Muslims" like there are so many "cafeteria Christians." Ultimately, society will progress at a greater rate when people quit taking their morals from these "holy" books. I don't see how pointing this out is racist, or even has anything to do with the subject of racism. You can subscribe to whatever religion you want to regardless of your race. Bill Maher simply pointed out that there is a huge problem of intolerance in the Islamic world which goes against a liberal secular worldview. Ben Affleck is completely wrong in his analysis.
LostInAnomie
(14,428 posts)Then, when no one took the bait he just got louder and acted like a jack-ass.
Islam and Islamic countries, particularly in the Middle East and Africa have terrible records on human rights, intolerance, and the funding of terrorism. Trying to gloss over this by saying "Islam is a big religion" is turning a blind eye toward the roots of the problem: the religion itself and it's inability to modernize in these areas.
elias49
(4,259 posts)It began to get a little raw.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)
Beringia
(5,507 posts)or whoever is in charge of American citizens and international politics has a folder on Affleck. He is smart, a maverick, and speaks his mind. And Hollywood has a lot of clout.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Many times he has a good point or two but he does it sometimes with a mean spiritedness that turns me off.
amuse bouche
(3,672 posts)Ben is delusional. Religion is the greatest evil in the world. Love Maher. He rocks
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)It was greed for power. Oh, and manipulating people to that end -- which is what your terror leaders are doing. It has as much to do with religion as the Klan as being a good Christian.
amuse bouche
(3,672 posts)Great definition of religion
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)Just the assholes who warp it.
I seriously don't think my very Catholic grandmother giving money for polio vaccines in Africa is part of the problem, nor the church at the end of my block putting on a soup kitchen.
amuse bouche
(3,672 posts)They are being manipulated by the assholes running religion and performing tasks, because they believe they will get some great reward in a fantastical, non existent afterlife
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)all atheists are jerks based on Bill Maher. I know Muslims who are good people and I also know atheists who are good people.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)It's *not* true that all Muslims are jerks.
It *is* true that most Muslims oppose gay rights, womens' rights, freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
It's possible to be a good person overall while having deeply unpleasant views on certain issues; and it's possible to identify as a Muslim while not sharing the views of the large majority of your co-religionists.
But what Maher rightly highlighted was that the large majority do interpret their religion as having deeply unpleasant and right-wing teachings on many issues.
He did not, of course, say "all Muslims are jerks".
valerief
(53,235 posts)of the country? Because they're born there!
Patriarchal residents in Islam-fundie-controlled ME nations are victims of their birthplace, just like anywhere else. They're not born undemocratic. They're taught it.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)After all, Islam isn't a 'race' but, rather, a religion.....but yes, he certainly does seem prejudiced against Muslims in general, which is a real shame.
BTW, did you watch Reza Aslan's rebuttal on CNN? Rather fine job he did, if you ask me.
LostInAnomie
(14,428 posts)Harris was presenting truth through facts and statistics. Affleck was presenting indignance and claptrap because he had nothing of substance to say.
Marr
(20,317 posts)I do think it's fair to say that all religions are not, today, really equally harmful to the world. However, extolling the virtues of Christianity or Judaism while saying Islam is a violent religion makes the point needlessly inflammatory.
Would it be fair to say that Jainism is less destructive than Islam? Or that Buddhism is currently less destructive than Christianity? I think both those statements are true, personally.
At the same time, what do you actually do with this information? I think people (liberals in particular) are hesitant to acknowledge the point mainly because they don't trust the kinds of people who make it. I mean, this is the sort of statement that fascists tend to sprint down the field with, if you know what I mean.
Joe Turner
(930 posts)Islam seems to be the one religion that can't co-exist with other religions. They can't even co-exist among themselves as we see every day in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. Some things just can't be swept under the rug.
Hari Seldon
(154 posts)Never in history.
In fact, The Protestant Reformation was a renowned for its friendliness, and those who were burnt at the stake felt that it was the best thing for religious harmony.
LostInAnomie
(14,428 posts)It's almost like 500 years of cultural advances and knowledge have changed the culture. Too bad modern Islam in the Middle East and Africa doesn't have access to that kind of information... Oh wait! They do and still stone women to death for leaving Islam.
Joe Turner
(930 posts)and after a few centuries learned to co-exist with other Christian sects and religions. That was then, this is now. Today Islam is the militant religious strain. And it doesn't help that in their holy book one of the central Islamic tenets calls for Muslims to convert non-muslims to Islam or....ahem...kill them. This will not work toward any peaceful outcome....ever..as long as they believe this.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)and deliberating keeping the poor poorer all in the name of religious greed for money.
what fucking bullshit crap poopsicles dung heap of excremental to say 'they' 'those people' are so different that us war monger woman hating, poor hating self absorbed pet rock buyers that kiss some old wrinkled ass pope ring.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)from that religion.
Muslim fundamentalism and literalism is a modern heresy according to traditional scholars.
It is part of the same tendency of dumbing down religion to divide us that we see in the promotion of christian fundamentalism.
It's no coincidence that both muslim and christian fundamentalism have increased exponentially since the 1980s.
Here's some information about the original muslim community:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina
The Constitution of Medina, also known as the Charter of Medina, was drafted by the Islamic prophet Muhammad. It constituted a formal agreement between Muhammad and all of the significant tribes and families of Yathrib (later known as Medina), including Muslims, Jews, Christians and pagans. This constitution formed the basis of the first Islamic state. The document was created to bring to an end the bitter inter-tribal fighting between the clans of the Aws (Aus) and Khazraj within Medina. To this effect it instituted a number of rights and responsibilities for the Muslim, Jewish, Christian and pagan communities of Medina bringing them within the fold of one community—the Ummah.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)wtf
Joe Turner
(930 posts)Sl*b
Response to Joe Turner (Reply #71)
Post removed
a la izquierda
(12,336 posts)Too bad you can't go back and ask the millions of indigenous folks worldwide how well Christianity coexisted with their native belief systems.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)but I don't agree that Affleck acquitted himself well in that discussion. Kristoff was much, much better.
Quixote1818
(31,155 posts)Affleck didn't win any converts with his presentation. Hopefully a few halfway sensible folks listened to what Kristoff said and opened their minds.
cali
(114,904 posts)but man, he did such a shitty job. He came off as just not very bright. I have no idea if he is or isn't an intelligent fellow, but he's lousy at debating this issue.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I thought the point they missed was that Muslim countries are reactionary and WILL kill people who are infidels.
Muslims in Western democracies generally do not behead infidels (excepting the guy south of Oklahoma City a few days ago who was trying to convert non-Muslims).
Maher was saying that all Muslims are supposed to kill infidels according to the Koran and Affleck was saying that's not true.
In Christianity, the Bible says many times that infidels, people who wear poly-cotton blends, disobedient sons, and people who eat shellfish should be murdered for their failure to follow the laws of Leviticus, so Christianity is certainly not innocent of this kind of horrific intolerant thinking. But we do not live in a Christian theocracy.
There are Muslim theocracies with such rules to kill infidels. Our ally Saudi Arabia beheads infidels all the time and nobody says anything about it over here. Because they have oil.
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)And that's what makes me angry. There is so much bigotry and hatred against Muslims living here as it is, and Maher is stirring the pot. I am not religious, but I also don't like to see people persecuted and bullied because they are different.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)It's certainly the case that some people hate that religion *for racist reasons*. But condemning Islam - even condemning it extremely vociferously - is not itself racist, and it's obvious that Maher's reasons for doing so are not racism, but the fact that he supports things like gender equality, gay rights, freedom of speech and religious freedom, and Islam as interpreted by the overwhelming majority of Muslims is strongly opposed to all those things.
It's grossly hypocritical to be a liberal but not be immensely critical of Islam as interpreted by most (not all) Muslims.
2banon
(7,321 posts)Every organized State Religion (Judaism, Christians, Muslim, etc.) have extremist fundamentalists sects.. Instead of being marginalized, they are largely tolerated at best, thus enabled to promote their extremists views/edicts.
We give sanction to extremist "Christians", even allow them to hold public office, people who can't wait for all of the Jews to finally return Israel to hurry up the second coming and the end to all of humanity. Whatever it takes to make that happen, they're not only down with it, they promote policies including tax payer funding towards that end.
amuse bouche
(3,672 posts)Oh you mean people who follow their bizarre religions to the letter
Religions become non insane only when followers break the rules. So why even bother?
2banon
(7,321 posts)I'm in the camp of No Religion allowed anywhere.. but that's just me.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Or whatever caricature you have in your head of religious people, anyway.
amuse bouche
(3,672 posts)No getting around that
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Look it you want to bring up Christian violence we have more recent history to choose from.
Second it is does not make you a bigot to be critical of Islam but please at least remember that ISIS does not represent Muslims anymore than Westboro Baptist represents me as a Christian.
Third is Maher has been critical of religion from day one so i find it interesting that some of you just now think he is some sort of bigot. I coukd have told you what he was years ago.
Fourth there is plenty of reasons to be critical of Islam as there is about Christianity. We need to discuss these things. We do not need to shut down debate.
Not directed at anyone.
amuse bouche
(3,672 posts)As usual, Bill gets it right
Ben was hyperventilating and yammering away a script in his head without ever listening to Sam and Bill
Lay off the roids Ben. They won't actually turn you into Batman
Bryce Butler
(338 posts)I am writing to you today as a woman who was born and raised in Islam. I saw your discussion with Bill Maher and Sam Harris, and I must say you did me a great disservice that day. Your heart was in the right place, of course, and it was lovely of you to step up and defend ‘my people’.
What you really did though, perhaps inadvertently, was silence a conversation that never gets started. Two people attempted to begin a dialogue and you wouldn’t even listen. Why should any set of ideas be above criticism, Ben?
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