Question for you. How dead do you have to be before the "Peace Keepers" stop shooting?

[sheshe2]

Is it two shots, three maybe or six or seventeen? The extreme use of excessive force by police is inexcusable and in fact down right criminal. The last three (with so many shootings I may be off in my numbers) were unarmed. It comes down to pure unadulterated hate. There is no other explanation. POC are being targeted. They are being stalked and hunted down as prey. It is open season on POC.

If these officers are so scared and so timid and so very so frightened of an unarmed teen then they are in the wrong profession. "Fearing" for your life does not give you the right to shoot and keep shooting long after the victim is dead.

Hands Up Don't Shoot.

You wear a target on your back
For nothing more than than being black
To my despair
Few seem to care
That your precious life is taken
Far to soon and my soul is shaken.


They are now forever young. Tears~

[daleanime]

1. Kick....

[Rex]

2. Military are trained to kill with one shot.

When I hear of a cop that unloads 16 bullets into someone, I have to ask what the fuck went wrong in that situation? They train and qualify with their firearms and have to maintain that level. 16 bullets is a lot to let loose in an urban area for just one target.

Excessive force, overkill, unloading a clip into someone is brutal and unnecessary. I don't buy into the fear, if that is what it is then a new job field is in order. Some people are just not cut out to be police officers. And that's okay.

[linuxman]

6. Bullshit.

the military is trained to shoot until the guy drops. Snipers are a possible exception.

People commonly shoot until empty when under extreme stress. Nobody counts the rounds fired when they shoot.

[Rex]

7. Cops should be able to control themselves, otherwise find another job.

If you cannot make a tight shot group, then you really shouldn't be on the police force. Sorry, don't buy the fear dogma.

[linuxman]

9. That's a pretty ignorant position.

Even the most highly trained shooters will experience adverse reactions when facing an armed threat.
You may be a big enough Billy Badass for that to be a non issue. Maybe you can teach everyone else. Please tell me how we are to find out which officers are capable of "tight shot groups" when being fired at. Real life isn't a fucking pistol range.

[Ikonoklast]

153. When cops show up at my range to practice to qualify, I pack up and leave.

Overall, worst shooters I see. Shoot the ceiling, the wall, the floor, horrible range safety practices.

[linuxman]

10. And another point:

If a cop is justified in using deadly force to stop a threat, what is the difference in 2 shots and 3? How is the cop to know that shot #5 was the one that did him in, thereby making shot #6 Unnecessary? I really can't be bothered to care how many shots were used to shoot someone who pulls a gun out and starts shooting at a cop.

[Rex]

12. Um 2 and 3 shots? Try 16 or 37.

Nice try.

[linuxman]

13. Sure.

Same principle applies. Dead is dead. If you're trying to kill someone, does the number matter?

Which bullet out of #s 1-16 stopped him, do you think?

[Rex]

15. Yeah if you don't care about public safety at all you fire 16 bullets.

If you have any kind of discipline, you fire 2 or 3. That you don't 'get that' is amusing to say the least.

[linuxman]

19. You're right.

Less is better. Given the outcome here, I find it hard to find fault. Nobody injured=good deal.

[scarystuffyo]

16. Just shoot the gun out of his hand and no one needs to die

[Rex]

18. Or aim center mass and not shoot wildly endangering everyone around you.

That too.

[scarystuffyo]

23. A lot of cops miss during gun fights as do the badguys

That's why there are so many rounds fired most times.
Heat pumping , adrenaline going through the roof

[Rex]

24. One person at close range does not equal 16 or 37 bullets imo.

To me, that is excessive force. Specially if they tased him first.

[scarystuffyo]

28. He wasn't tased , that was said by the mans uncle but the police said he wasn't carrying a taser

[scarystuffyo]

30. Remember the gun fight the police had here

On August 24, 2012, a gunman shot and killed a former co-worker outside the Empire State Building in New York City. Following the initial shooting, the gunman, 58-year-old Jeffrey T. Johnson, was fatally shot by police officers after raising his weapon at them. Nine bystanders were wounded by stray bullets fired by the officers and ricocheting debris, but none suffered life-threatening injuries

[Rex]

35. Thank goodness the bystanders all survived.

I'd hate to be stuck in the middle of a gunfight.

[scarystuffyo]

39. Yup , it's almost impossible to have street cops trained to handle gun fights

like we have of FBI hostage recuse team or our Delta Force counter terrorism operators.

The reason being these guys shoot , I mean their training involves firing 10 of thousands of rounds
every year in shoot houses , drills , etc..

People like that could do what you say fire one or two shoots to stop a threat while a hostage is right next to the
bad guy.

Street cops don't have 1000's of hours training with live fire weapons and it wouldn't be feasible to do it.

They would be training all the time.

But I get where you're coming from when we read cops discharging an entire mag but I also understand why it happens.

[Jenoch]

62. One of the main reasons for that situation

is because nyc patrolmen have little training shooting their weapons and tjey habe excessive 12# trigger pulls on their sidearms. The heavy trigger pulls are an attempt to reduce officer involved shootings. The bystanders being shot are the result.

[scarystuffyo]

66. Yeah I remember reading where the trigger pull was modified to be heavy

[AnalystInParadise]

59. And why

do you think 1 shot will bring someone down. I have seen (with my own eyes) Iraqi insurgents with nine and ten 5.56mm M-4 rounds in them and they are still fighting us and still trying to kill us. Maximum firepower until the target stops moving is the only way this works.

[Rex]

91. You talking about being a military professional in a warzone or being a Peace Officer in America?

Thanks for the insights, very illuminating.

[AnalystInParadise]

95. In life or death situations

the distinction is damn near non-existent.

[Rex]

96. Nonsense.

There is a huge difference.

[AnalystInParadise]

103. Really?

Well glad you aren't in charge of LEO's or military members.

Life or death tends to zero out rationality and at that point training takes over. Training that involves hundreds if not thousands of repetitions with a weapon say that you empty your magazine into the target, reload and be prepared to empty a second one if the target is still showing signs of being a danger. Sorry you don't like the rules, I suggest you take it up with the military and LEO training branches.

[Rex]

110. Oh well your opinion isn't the rules lol.

Nice try. Glad you are not a LEO in America. LEOs have to have gun discipline. It's sad if the army has lost that basic training.

[AnalystInParadise]

115. I was not being shitty

I was just stating that is the training. Why on Earth would the Army engage in one shot/one kill? That is insanity. You kill your target, that requires maximum number of rounds to effectively end the threat. Sometimes it is two, sometimes it is 27. The most rounds I ever saw in a dead Iraqi was 32. According to the AAR (After Action Review) he was still trying to fire all the way until the last few rounds hit him. Sometimes it takes more rounds to bring the target down, I don't get the problem here. This appears to not be an unarmed kid like Mike Brown was, this is a totally different situation. If he fired at the cop, then at that point he became a danger to the cop's life. Training dictates you shoot the necessary maximum number of rounds to effectively neutralize the threat. I don't understand why people don't get this, this has been fairly standard LEO practices for decades.

[Rex]

117. Yeah I get that you don't get it.

Not a big deal, some get it some don't.

[NutmegYankee]

133. Sadly that is not possible.

Since I target shoot as a sport, let me reiterate that it is very challenging to hit a small target like a gun in range conditions with a handgun (calm shooter, low heart rate, proper stance, adequate lighting, time to adjust aim). It's nearly impossible to do so when frightened with a racing pulse. Also, this only works if the gun was pointed away from the the cop because there has to be leverage to generate a force strong enough to defeat the grip of the suspect on the gun. If the gun barrel is aimed at the cop, it cannot by laws of physics be done.

[scarystuffyo]

14. You mean sniper training

[X_Digger]

33. lolno.

Here, let's put you on a treadmill for 10 minutes to get your heart rate up, then run you through a haunted house (now's a good time to do that, no?) and at the most scary point, I'm going to hand you a gun and have you turn around and shoot at a zombie target that's moving toward you. The lights are poor, there are noises all around you, and someone behind you is screaming bloody murder.

Let's see. First your adrenal glands dump about five different stress hormones into your bloodstream. The effect is immediate. Your heart rate skyrockets, your vision tunnels down to a small cone, all your big muscle groups tighten up in a fight or flight response, making your every effort to draw a steady bead on the target in front of you harder and harder- the more you squeeze the gun, the more it shakes. You pull the trigger, and a flash of light obscures your already small cone of vision. Your hearing is instantly gone. You see the target still approaching you. Did you miss, or is it momentum keeping him on his feet? You fire again.

What you don't realize (because, physiology, yay science!) is that you shot multiple times, without realizing it. Reptile brain isn't good about counting, but repetition, it can handle.

There's no getting around fucking biology, unless you want to keep cops on fucking barbiturates.

[Rex]

37. Wow if you are describing yourself, remind me to never give you a firearm.

Also another personal note to cops, when the person is dead - you don't have to handcuff them just to look good 'on camera phone'.

[X_Digger]

60. I'm explaning every goddamned human on the planet who's not doped to the gills. You included.

It's the fight or flight response.

*sigh*

And here I thought the right-wing nutjobs were the ones who didn't understand biology.

[Rex]

87. Okay sure you are.

Keep your zombie fantasies. Your generalization is amusing but obviously flawed.

[NutmegYankee]

139. How so?

He gave a great description of what it is like in human senses.

You talked about snipers with one shot, but did you know that they are heavily trained in how to control breathing and keep their heart rate low? A low heart rate and calm are very important to getting that one shot. They also do this from cover which helps give them that calm.

People engaged in close combat classically have horrible accuracy.

[X_Digger]

156. It's a good (safe) way to show you (or anyone) what would happen in a real fight for your life.

I could take you the wrong way down the interstate and you'd get the same adrenaline dump, but.. that's not safe.

Ignore physiology all you wish, it just makes your opinions look.. uninformed.

[GGJohn]

70. Police are trained to remove the firearm from the suspect,

and then handcuff the suspect, whether alive or dead, that's pretty much SOP for all police across the country.

[Rex]

90. Really? Handcuffing a dead person seems kinda bizarre.

But okay if you say so.

[GGJohn]

105. It stems from a few incidents years ago when cops thought a suspect they shot was dead,

only it turned out, they weren't dead and were able to shoot the cop and either injure or kill the cop.
After those incidents, it became SOP for cops to handcuff suspects whether they thought they were alive or dead.

[scarystuffyo]

108. It's because a police officer is not suppose to make that determinationif a suspect is dead

or alive after a shooting , he or she can make the determination if the threat is stopped but a medic needs to declare the suspect dead.

[Rex]

112. Interesting.

So they are supposed to make sure the suspect cannot shoot anymore, but not if they are still alive? Okay, sure. Next.

[GGJohn]

116. Most cops today are either EMT-B's or certified First Responders

and can give basic medical aid if needed, but they can't legally declare a person dead.
A lot of cops are Paramedics also.

[Rex]

121. Lots of cops are paramedics.

Learning a lot tonight. But no reason to check for a pulse. Not their job. Got it.

[GGJohn]

126. Any good cop should, will usually check for a pulse to determine if the person is still alive or not

[Rex]

128. I would hope so, at least bare minimum check for a pulse.

Must be somewhat important for good cops, to assess the current situation. I wouldn't expect CPR, but at least check for vital signs.

[scarystuffyo]

129. Never seen that happen after an officer was involved in a shooting , ever

I would be amazed if you could show me any dept that teaches that

[GGJohn]

131. It's not taught in any dept I know of, but it would be an instinctive gesture for someone

trained as an EMT.

[scarystuffyo]

132. I don't disagree with you there but officers involved after a shooting try to follow dept protocol

by the letter , especially in this climate .

[GGJohn]

137. True, but also, I don't know of any dept. that forbids their EMT trained officers from

checking for a pulse after securing the suspect.

[scarystuffyo]

143. I won't disagree with you and some EMT officers might do just that

but it's something that is not written in the officers report stating he or she reached down to determine
the suspects condition of being alive or dead after that said officer was involved in the shooting

It's pretty standard what goes into an incident report.

Determining life or death isn't one of them.
That is the medics report .

I just also want to reiterate again that is not taught in any academy for an officer to do in an involved shooting

[yesiwasacop]

159. Most state certification requiremnts

require quite a bit of first aid/cpr. We have officers routinely respond to med calls and do CPR.

Also required to be cert on AED

[yesiwasacop]

158. I have been present on a number of officer involved shootings

every single one of them the officers rendered aid to include cpr when needed. There were a couple who nothing was done with, but that is because they were very obviously dead.....no need to explain with graphics.

My agency doesnt have too many who are EMTs, but they get tons of first aid training to include cpr.

[GGJohn]

160. In our city police force, officers that become certified as Paramedics receive

a $2.00 an hour raise, which is a nice incentive and the dept will re-imburse up to 50% of the cost for the course.

[scarystuffyo]

164. My post was regarding determining life or death in a report but

Are you saying the officers in your dept administered CPR to gunshot victims on the street where they were the ones involved in the shooting? I'm also going to assume some didn't survive. This was all done before any medic present? Or before any pressure was applied to stop bleeding?


And after the person expired after performing CPR on the gun shot victim before the medic was present all this was written in the
incident report?

[scarystuffyo]

124. But they don't feel for a pulse after a shooting in any dept I know of to deterimine life or death

They remove the weapon and cuff the suspect and wait for a medic.

That's pretty much SOP in every dept

[yesiwasacop]

162. Get a copy (FOIA)of any dept SOP that tells them not to render aid and post it here

I cant imagine a dept having a policy that says they will not render aid. Whether the cops follow it is a different story.

[scarystuffyo]

165. Can you answer any of those questions I just asked?

[yesiwasacop]

167. You mean if they did CPR on someone who they had just shot???

I and four other officers did cpr on a guy an officer just shot. He lived for about an hour afterwards. The life flighted him and the trauma surgeons couldnt save him.

He was in the process of stabbing another civilian when he was shot by police so he needed to die anyway. Sounds kind of bad doesnt it? Well the other civ was his wife and she was cut to ribbons, but did live. She thanked the guy who shot her hubby.

You were the one who said it is sop to wait on ems. While that may be true, the balance of the policy likely will state something to the effect that if needed, the officers on-scene shall render any and all neccessary first-aid to preserve life. If you think yor local agency has a policy which specifically tells their cops not to render aid- go get a copy of it and post it here. I'm pretty sure you will never find a policy like that.

Plenty of people are shot who are dead on the spot and there is no doubt because they have a bullet through their head, no breathing, no capillary refill, non-reactive pupils and either brain matter coming from the exit wound and/or cerebral fluid coming out of their ears. At that point I wouldnt do CPR either---why? All the paramedics do is check the same things we do with the addition of a heart rate / brain activity monitor. Many of our cops are EMTs military medics and what not so not hard to determine if someone is dead. We just are not legally allowed to pronounce them

Other cases, the guy has a GSW top the leg, arm torso or whatever and is talking and cooperative at that point. Other than applying pressure to stop bleeding (if needed) and monitoring their air intake / responsiveness what else is really necessary?

I just wish civilians would do first aid on their friends, loved ones or whoever they are with who have been shot or injured. I have RARELY responded to a shooting (non cop involved) where anyone was doing anything but looking at the guy...most times they were dead, but many times just laying there barely breathing and bleeding out. Everyone just standing there watching. Gang members are the worst about this- their buddy laying there dying and they are just running their mouths.

[scarystuffyo]

168. Yes that was exactly what I was refering too

"You mean if they did CPR on someone who they had just shot???"

I never wrote there is no policy to not render aid in any of my posts.
This started with a question why is a shooting victim cuffed.
I know CPR is taught in academy to every recruit but that wasn't what I was referring too

Maybe my post wasn't clear where I wrote the officer doesn't determine life or death
My responses were directed as to why an officer would cuff the perpetrator when he's on
the ground laying down after being shot whether he appears moving or not. I wrote it's not up to the officer to determine death searching for a pulse( perhaps I shouldn't have wrote life) That is the medical team job on location . The officers job is to remove weapons and secure the suspect.

And it is SOP as you wrote also to wait for a medical response team.
Again I will say I myself have never heard of the shooting officer performing the CPR to the perpetrator
reason being it opens up a host of legal reasons if the shooting could be questionable in this climate.

The officer who shot the victim should not be involved in this ( Especially if no one else is present). If there are other officers on the scene let them try if they want. We just seem to differ on this opinion .

[yesiwasacop]

172. What legal problems would doing cpr on someone cause???

Where I am at, failure to render aid when needed no matter what happened will cost your job and it has a couple times.

I suppose if you were doing cpr incorrectly you could be sued, but to refuse cpr on someone you just shot and that cpr could have saved their life- I'm thinking that would be even more legal trouble. We have a good samaritan law here so unless you are an EMT, DR, Paramedic or cpr instructor, any lifesaving effort that causes further injury you are not liable for it...so long as your actions were dont with the intent to help.

Heres a couple examples of cops doing cpr on people they just shot. Only took me a couple minutes to find them:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Man-Shot-in-Burlington-County-Home-277552221.html

http://www.wisn.com/news/witness-person-shot-at-red-arrow-park/25741516

Here is an FAQ page for San Jose PD. Theuy are pretty much the role model in the western us on police training and procedures. Much of what they do is mimicked by other western agencies...and many all over the us.

Read the page, I think it will answer your question whether the cops (at least at San Jose) do first aid on people they shoot. Like I said, most agencies have the same policy as did mine when I worked there.

[scarystuffyo]

119. You asked why after every shooting a suspect is cuffed correct?

A police officer can not declare a suspect dead or alive that is done by a medic.

They don't reach down and try to feel for a pulse , they remove the weapon and cuff the suspect .

That's how it works

[Rex]

123. I guess, thanks for identifying one of the main problems.

Since that's how it works.

[yesiwasacop]

157. He is describing you too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response

[sheshe2]

44. Nor do I buy into it Rex.

Though the poster below you sure does!

[AnalystInParadise]

46. One shot one kill is bullshit

20 year Army veteran here, we are taught to empty our magazines to bring a target or targets down....just like cops are.

[sheshe2]

68. You are taught to bring unarmed civilians down?

You are taught to empty your magazine in an unarmed teen, just like cops are!? Really?! How about an unarmed teen with their hands over their head? You do remember Michael Brown do you not!?

[AnalystInParadise]

75. I am taught to empty

my weapon into anything or anyone deemed a threat. It really isn't that complicated.

[sheshe2]

94. Actually it is that complicated.

I asked you this...his arms were over his head! Hands up don't Shoot!

You are taught to empty your magazine in an unarmed teen, just like cops are!? Really?! How about an unarmed teen with their hands over their head? You do remember Michael Brown do you not!?

Your response...

I am taught to empty

my weapon into anything or anyone deemed a threat. It really isn't that complicated.

So a teen mortally wounded is a threat to you?

Dear Gawd we are so lost!

[Travelman]

98. Where's your evidence of this claim?

"I asked you this...his arms were over his head!"

Where is your proof of this?

[sheshe2]

122. I do believe that you are getting all these shootings confused.

Easy to do because they sure as hell are coming at us daily! Focus here. I was talking about Michael Brown.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/09/11/1328977/-New-witnesses-to-Michael-Brown-killing-say-he-had-his-hands-up#

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2-men-react-michael-brown-shot-cops-article-1.1935949

Sure, I know you will believe the police over an eye witness.

[AnalystInParadise]

99. This teen was not unarmed

this teen did not have his hands up. This teen had a gun. I am taught to empty my weapon into anything or anyone deemed a threat. IT really isn't that complicated, you are making it complicated and no we are not lost. We would be lost if we were a society where LEO's do not use their weapons to end threats to themselves or the public safety.

[sheshe2]

141. I think you need to do some research before you post.

You are responding to my post here.

I asked you this...his arms were over his head! Hands up don't Shoot!

You are taught to empty your magazine in an unarmed teen, just like cops are!? Really?! How about an unarmed teen with their hands over their head? You do remember Michael Brown do you not!?

This about Michael Brown shooting not the Vonderrit Myers. Research and evaluate before you shoot.

I asked you how you would respond to Michael's shooting and you did not answer. Was it justified! He was a threat?

[AnalystInParadise]

150. I have already responded to Michael Browns shooting

I am unsure if he was a threat or not, we have a DA and a Grand Jury figuring that out for us all right now.

[Travelman]

93. Did this guy have his hands up?

Hint: no.


You've just declared that someone should be brought down with two or three rounds fired and that should automatically be that.

How many shooting situations have you been in?

[sheshe2]

100. Hint: Did you read the OP and the thread!?

I referred to the Michael Brown shooting and yes his hands were over his head.

That seems a okay to many here! 'Cause a black teen is so very threatening with his hands raised!

Nope I don't shoot people, maybe with a stare however never with a gun. Guns suck!

[AnalystInParadise]

106. Who cares if he is a black teen or a white teen?

You seem to be the one introducing race into this conversation.

And are we talking about Brown or Myers? They are VERY different situations.

[Travelman]

107. So, you're just intentionally conflating two totally different and utterly unrelated issues

Glad we cleared that up.

[sheshe2]

144. No you are!

My Op

Question for you. How dead do you have to be before the "Peace Keepers" stop shooting? [View all]

Is it two shots, three maybe or six or seventeen? The extreme use of excessive force by police is inexcusable and in fact down right criminal. The last three (with so many shootings I may be off in my numbers) were unarmed. It comes down to pure unadulterated hate. There is no other explanation. POC are being targeted. They are being stalked and hunted down as prey. It is open season on POC.

If these officers are so scared and so timid and so very so frightened of an unarmed teen then they are in the wrong profession. "Fearing" for your life does not give you the right to shoot and keep shooting long after the victim is dead.

My OP asks the question of the last three shootings by cop.

[scarystuffyo]

147. There is no set number

The shot that killed MR Myers was a head shot .
Even though the officer is reported firing 16 or 17 rounds
5 or 6 rounds hit MR Myers lower body the final shot that determined death was the shot to the head
which was determined by the medical examiner.

This happened in a matter of a few seconds after MR Myers fired 3 rounds at the officer.

16 or 17 rounds sounds like a lot but it happened in seconds

[Travelman]

149. This guy was not unarmed

He did not have his hands up. He was actively shooting at a cop.

Yes, you ARE intentionally conflating the shootings.

[Raine1967]

84. And.. right here is the problem.

Cops are NOT supposed to be like the military.

The military is the military, LEO are NOT the military.

[AnalystInParadise]

89. The principle is the same

the training is similar. If you are in danger, you put rounds downrange (as many as needed) to end the threat.

[Raine1967]

92. Let's agree to disagree,

because it is NOT the same principle. Think about it for a moment.

LEO's are not the military.

[AnalystInParadise]

97. We can agree to disagree

but in a life or death situation, bullets do not care if you are LEO or Army. In life or death situations, the distinction is non-existent.

[GGJohn]

109. Hate to break it to you, but LE Dept. are quasi-military org,

same as fire depts.

[scarystuffyo]

104. No but the same sort of principle still applies

in how the police are trained to continue firing until the threat is stopped

It doesn't mean dead , it means stopped

[Calista241]

61. The US Army, in Afghanistan, expended over 250,000 bullets per insurgent killed.

In Vietnam, the military estimated it was 50,000 rounds expended per enemy KIA. IN WW2, it was estimated to be 1 enemy KIA per 10,000 rounds expended.

We expend more ammunition now to limit the casualties we take, the idea being that if you're shooting at them, they're going to be less effective shooting back at you. This same motivation probably carries over to our police forces.

[sheshe2]

80. THIS IS NOT A WAR!

[Rex]

88. It does seem many think cops and soldiers have the same job.

Interesting.

[sheshe2]

145. Yes it is interesting.

Some have declared war on citizens here.

[AnalystInParadise]

102. In a life or death situation

no one is analyzing if they are in a war zone or not. Training takes over at this point, and the training says that you empty your clip into the target, reload and prepare to empty a second clip if necessary. That is reality.

[GGJohn]

69. The only military personnel that are trained to kill with one shot are snipers.

[scarystuffyo]

71. Even that's hard with a rifle sometimes

The SEALs who took out those pirates were good with head shots on a moving boat

[GGJohn]

73. Seals and Marine Scout Snipers,

best snipers in the world IMO.

[scarystuffyo]

78. I would have to say the Brits run neck and neck with our guys also

[Major Hogwash]

72. Absolutely! Unloading an entire magazine in to another body is extreme overkill!!

Whether that body happens to be another human being, a bear, a coyote, a wolf or just a common, ordinary dog!

This last summer, there was a police officer in a small community near Boise that shot a dog 3 times, from within 5 feet.
The officer was terrified of that dog simply because the dog was barking at him and was loose in the front yard of the house he lived at.
The dog was just protecting his home!

The dog didn't know the difference between that police officer and the postman or even the difference between that police officer and a delivery driver from UPS.
It didn't make any difference to the dog that the officer was wearing a uniform.

All that dog knew was that the police officer was coming on to HIS property.
So, what does Officer Douchebag do when the dog starts barking at him and comes close to him?
He kicks at the dog.
Oh, that's a great response!

And of course, the dog immediately understood that it was an officer of the law that had just tried to kick his guts in, so he recognized who was the real legal authority in this situation and backed the fuck off, right?
Wrong!
All that did was piss that poor dog off, and the officer's actions probably confirmed the dog's initial suspicions . . that the freakin' police officer was an intruder, and that he was only there to do his master and him harm!
So, the dog gets louder and comes even closer to the police officer as he enters the yard from the street.

And that was when the officer whips out his pistol and shoots the dog -- not once, not twice, but 3 fucking times!
The entire incident was captured on the dash cam of the officer's car.
And that dog was dead -- stone dead -- after the first shot, let alone the 2nd shot.

When the dash cam video was released to the public, farmers, ranchers, and neighbors in that small rural community demanded that the particular police officer involved in that incident be fired for using excessive force!
They held protests at one of the local grocery stores, and several of them made statements to the media that wound up in the newspapers and being broadcast on local tv news reports, demanding change from the head of the police department in their small, close knit community.
And that community is full of white Republicans.
Their little town is located, in fact, in the 2nd most Republican county in Idaho.

Now, if Republicans from small, rural communities can get so upset about a dog being killed by the police using excessive force, then perhaps it will start to sink in with other people why black people in this country are sick and tired of having excessive force used on them in large urban areas.

I mean, really . . . the officer that killed Myers used 16 shots?

[Rex]

77. It is crazy. 47 bullets to take down a 'knife wielding' homeless man.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/25/justice/michigan-police-shooting/
No charges.

[Major Hogwash]

101. It is crazy. In Seattle, the Emerald City, just this summer a cop killed a black man just for . .

. . holding a knife!

The black man was homeless, and was walking down the street with a short bladed knife.
The cop told him to stop, whipped out his gun, waited 1-thousand-1, 1-thousand-2, 1-thousand-3 seconds, and then put 5 rounds in to the guy!!

Yet, bystanders that witnessed the whole incident and were at that busy intersection that is located in downtown Seattle that early afternoon said that the level of traffic noise was so loud that the black, homeless man probably didn't even hear the police officer yell at him because the officer was nearly 50 feet away from him when he took his firing stance!!!

Police officer -- white.
Dead man holding knife -- black.

The police officer later said that he was afraid that the black, homeless man was going to do something with that knife.
The police officer was afraid, you see.
He was concerned about the situation.
Yet, instead of approaching the man holding the knife and asking him what was going on, he just kills him.

However one wants to view it, in this case, that police officer didn't have the RIGHT to fire upon him, period!!
The police officer didn't know that the black man was homeless until after he had killed him!
Instead, the police officer acted as judge, jury, and executioner.

Yet, I don't recall reading ANYWHERE where it is stated that is the way things are supposed to be in this country in any legal ruling or after any law was enacted, that police officers can also be the jury, and convict the person, and/or execute them!

[Rex]

114. Well according to some here, a cop is no different than a soldier

judge, jury and executioner.

[sheshe2]

111. Damn this place tires me so~

Thanks for being a friendly face. I have lots of angry responses awaiting me and they can go to hell for the night. I have to work in the AM.

Thank you for your post. Spot on, it is all about overkill though many don't seem to understand that. These children are being killed the same way that dog was. A problem a pest and so easily dispatched with a gun.

[Major Hogwash]

120. Life is but a dream . . .

And that is why I love you so.
I thought it a good idea that you needed a friendly name in your threads.
Hell, you didn't think I was going to declare myself President of your fan club for nothing, did ya?

[sheshe2]

135. Thank you~~~

I posted this to Tarheel Dem the other night. Seems to fit here.



Ya poo is be flung here!

Major!

sheshe

[logosoco]

3. It does seem like overkill to me (literally). It also shows huge disregard for any by standers or

even nearby property.

[jwirr]

4. sheshe2 is that your poetry? Good.

[sheshe2]

5. It is jwirr...

and it's been a very long time since I wrote any.

I thank you.

[Quayblue]

27. please write more

as I should too.

Peace to you sheshe2

[Major Hogwash]

136. Yes, and I also think that this is as good a time as any for me to announce that membership in . . .

. . . the sheshe2 fan club is wide open!!!

As the self-appointed President of her fan club, I decided to make entrance in to her club rather easy: members just have to be nice to her, post in the BOG and/or HOF once in awhile, and never ever say a bad thing to her.
It's "easy peasy", as my 9-year niece used to say a few years ago when she was 9 years old.

I haven't decided on whether to use a complicated secret handshake for her club members yet, though.
Instead, I'm thinking of stealing that one oddball, very ironic line that McGoohan used in his old tv series "The Prisoner", when he would say "Be seeing you" to other members of the community where he was imprisoned; people that he didn't know and he didn't know how they came to be there, so he would say that phrase as it was common among the people of that community, and then he would exchange a rather informal, lazy finger salute from the temple with the other community members he met along the way.

That old tv series was so weird that it was cool, yet it was so odd, and yet also, at the same time, it was, how should I put it, so DU.

[linuxman]

8. Yeah, except

1. Life isn't a movie. The bad guy doesn't lay down and die when he catches the first hunk of lead, like in some Stallone stroke-fest. Hell, you have a good six seconds of mobility after a shot to the heart in some cases. Look into the Florida FBI shootout from the 80s. Most of the agents killed were shot by the perp after he was mortally wounded.

2.The guy in the most recent shooting was armed and shot at a cop.

3. "Fearing for your life" is pretty valid when a convicted gun-carrying criminal is shooting at you.

[sheshe2]

20. Armed, sure, that's what the cops say. You state that as fact! Hmmm~

So he doesn't fall with the first bullet, yet you are okay with 17? So how did an off duty cop know all this about Vonderrit D. Myers' record? He recognized him in a split second pulled a u turn and perused him in his car, then leaps from the vehicle and chases him.

As for Michael Brown. He was unarmed and had his hands in the air! That makes it murder. MURDER!

[linuxman]

22. His criminal record only validates the claims of his being armed.

He was also described as "known to the department", probably due to illegally carrying guns and having a court-ordered anklet. Guy sounded like he had quite the history of poor decision-making.


I don't see what this has to do with the Brown case, aside from geography.

[sheshe2]

26. Well first of all read this thread.

He bought a sandwich no gun no hoodie, about 10 minutes later he was dead.

Also I don't give a damn about his record! My OP was about shooting long after the said suspect was dead. How many bullets are justified?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025644616

As for Michael Brown, please read the OP it was about the last 3+ police shootings of black teens, and at this point Meyers along with the last 2 were unarmed.

[linuxman]

32. He had a gun. Again. This time he treied to kill a cop.

Unless you believe that the witnesses were so fucking stupid that they didn't see the cops go and retrieve a pistol to plant on him, in addition to firing three shots with it after the shooting by the cop, then you must have completely divorced yourself from reality.

He had a gun. Get over it.

Fuck it. I'm wasting my time on you. Nothing anyone says or does will convince you he shot at a cop.

His previous criminal charge was actually for possessing a sandwich.

[sheshe2]

38. wow...

He had a gun. Get over it.

that is not a proven fact as of yet. and if he did he still did not deserve to be shot down like an animal, oh wait, we take down animals with more humanity.

[AnalystInParadise]

57. So the three bullets recovered

that were shot towards the off duty policeman? Who shot those exactly? Are you saying the policeman fired three Ruger bullets at himself and then fired 17 rounds in the direction of Myers?

[sheshe2]

64. You mean the off duty "peace officer"

that drove by 3 teens, instantly recognized one and knew Meyers had a record...hmm K'? Then he spun his unmarked vehicle around and chased them in his car before getting out and chasing them on foot. Really?

That is the strange part...why the hell did he go after them. Three teens walking together was not a threat. Oh wait they were black!

If someone was coming after me in a car I sure as hell would have run.

As for the supposed

Who shot those exactly? Are you saying the policeman fired three Ruger bullets at himself and then fired 17 rounds in the direction of Myers?

good question who did fire those?

The feds are now investigating. We no longer need the cops word for what the hell went down. Gotta say the story stinks at this point.

Once again my point in my OP which you did not answer. How many shots do you believe acceptable? How many more after they are dead and on the ground? That was the question in my OP! My OP included the last three shooting that includes Michael Brown! Remember him hands up and still shot to death! Dear Gawd, we have lost our ever living souls!

[AnalystInParadise]

74. As many as necessary

to get the target of my shots to stop moving. The point in pulling out a firearm is to kill the target. My military training taught me that. If it takes 3, fine, if it takes 27 I am also ok with that. The removal of the threat to my life does not have a set number of bullets needed to end it. This is not a math problem.

[sheshe2]

76. So that includes unarmed targets with their hands over their heads?

[GGJohn]

83. Which doesn't seem to be the case here.

Cops recovered the gun, recovered the shells and bullets, autopsy will reveal whether or not the teen fired the gun.

[sheshe2]

134. And the cops are stellar in there reports! Oh wait they aren't.

So glad the feds are investigating both Meyer and Brown cases and the total corruption of the PD in Ferguson. You read about that correct? Ferguson was making money off of the black community with arrests.

Google it and read it and weep. And no, I am not doing your homework for you!

[GGJohn]

138. This ain't Ferguson, Ferguson cops aren't even involved here.

Try to stay on topic.

[sheshe2]

142. No, you stay on topic.

My OP!

Question for you. How dead do you have to be before the "Peace Keepers" stop shooting? [View all]

Is it two shots, three maybe or six or seventeen? The extreme use of excessive force by police is inexcusable and in fact down right criminal. The last three (with so many shootings I may be off in my numbers) were unarmed. It comes down to pure unadulterated hate. There is no other explanation. POC are being targeted. They are being stalked and hunted down as prey. It is open season on POC.

If these officers are so scared and so timid and so very so frightened of an unarmed teen then they are in the wrong profession. "Fearing" for your life does not give you the right to shoot and keep shooting long after the victim is dead.

Hands Up Don't Shoot.

You wear a target on your back
For nothing more than than being black
To my despair
Few seem to care
That your precious life is taken
Far to soon and my soul is shaken.


They are now forever young. Tears~

It has not been proven that there was a gun yet in the Myers case only the word of the PD.

My question was how much force is necessary to bring down a teen. How many shots are acceptable?

[AnalystInParadise]

85. Since this was not an unarmed kid

your argument is null and void.

The gun was recovered, bullets were recovered, if it is proven that the kid did fire at the cops, I suspect you will just move the goalposts.

[bravenak]

43. No! We won't get over it!! Never again will we sit silent while the cops tell us it was a 'good kill

No!! Not any more!! Everytime a cop kills a black man we will make sure they hear our voices!! We are done with this shit!

I am tired of people like you who have no respect for the value of human life. As many times as cops have lied a black man into prison, we should be skeptical of everything they say. And don't you be getting fresh with SheShe, dammit!! Cops shoot black men all the time. I'm shocked that more black men don't shoot back. They fear for their lives too.

[sheshe2]

56. No we will not get over it bravenak.

At least those with an ounce of humanity running through their veins will not. NO MORE!

Would you just look at the people that are so drawn to this thread. So much hate. So much violence.

Thanks bravenak. You are my sister.

[bravenak]

58. All of the freaks came out today.

I had a long time poster tell me that the neighborhood is relieved the cop shot that young man. Relieved.
Your welcome, you know I love you

[sheshe2]

51. Nope I only divorced myself from my husband.

Trust me I know all about reality, that's why I left.

Unless you believe that the witnesses were so fucking stupid that they didn't see the cops go and retrieve a pistol to plant on him, in addition to firing three shots with it after the shooting by the cop, then you must have completely divorced yourself from reality.

Really? They don't carry the drop downs on them?

Please watch the video at this link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025644616

[Jenoch]

63. I watched that video and could not

understand the point that was attempted to being made. The onvicted man making statements said stuff, but I did not hear any LEO making statements that confirmed anything. I'm willing to listen to more, but that audio did not say anything that I could understand.

[Jenoch]

48. Long after he was dead?

What information do you have that the other DUers do not have?

[Generic Brad]

11. Is this a "Farscape" trivia thread?

If they are trying to subdue a Scarran, then many shots are required.

[herding cats]

17. Your words moved me.

Beautiful and yet poignant.

[damnedifIknow]

21. Store manager

Neighbor Blanche Campbell, 38, said she saw Myers Wednesday night. He had just bought a sandwich from the Shaw Market, where he was a regular customer.

“The young man, he didn't have a gun. He had a sandwich,” Campbell told reporters in front of the store Thursday, adding, “It's strange how you mistake a sandwich for a damn gun. ... I think these police officers need to think about what they're doing.”

Berhe Beyent, the store's manager, said, “Like six minutes after I sold him a sandwich, he got shot. ... He wasn't armed when he was here. He didn't have a hoodie.”

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-st-louis-braces-after-latest-shooting-of-black-man-20141009-story.html#page=1

[jtuck004]

25. "He didn't have a hoodie". < sheesh. What are we? n/t

[Rex]

29. You think that will make major news headlines in the M$M?

[sheshe2]

31. Yup...see this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025644616

And watch the video about a throw down gun!

[damnedifIknow]

41. ?

" During the altercation, the suspect’s hooded sweatshirt came off of him.”

[sheshe2]

42. And this was the picture minutes before he died!

He was buying his sandwich. Go to the link and read it!



http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025644616

[herding cats]

54. Yeah, but they're the police, they wouldn't lie to us.

Except for when they do. Then they wonder why we don't believe them and do what they say. Funny how that works.

[marym625]

49. and the PD may not issue tasers

But cops can buy them on their own. Many security companies issue them. Funny how Hi-Tech Security website is down. Can't find out if they do.

[Jenoch]

65. How would the store manager

knoq if he was armed, or not?

[FlatStanley]

34. Full magazine dead, it would seem.

Just in case the perp decides to charge head first.

[LiberalArkie]

45. I think generally it is preferred to fill the "perp" with enough lead that it takes a forklift to

put the "perp" into the meat wagon. I say "perp" because a trained law enforcement officer would never discharge their weapon at someone who was not committing a crime.

[marym625]

47. Not a no risk job

The idea cops put their lives on the line is no longer true.

Biggest target is young ,black men. Next is any person of color. If they're not easily made target any mentally ill person will do regardless of color. Poor and drug addicted are next.

It's a war on the American people. Militarization of the police is done to keep us in our place. Docile and obedient

[Jenoch]

67. You are wrong.

http://www.vizio.com/p-series?utm_campaign=vizio-p-series&utm_medium=mobile&utm_source=yieldmo&utm_content=us-ch-al-v1-mo-1X1CT&ci_linkid=vizio-p-series_mobile_yieldmo_us-ch-al-v1-mo-1X1CT

[marym625]

79. I don't know what you are trying to show me

Only linking to visio ads.

[bravenak]

81. I agree.

It's up to them to change their ways. Not gonna stop complaing loudly until they do. My family us in danger, my husband has two sons. I was thinking about more children, but no. I'll just make myself available as a surrogate.

[marym625]

86. I'm assuming that the point of the

Person who said "not true" is that cops take risks. To say "every" or "all" in any circumstance is usually untrue. But more and more they take any risk out of the situation by immediately going for deadly force. Tasing an 8 year old child? 4 cops can't subdue a child without the use of a taser? Throwing a hand grenade in a crib? Shooting 16 times? Getting out of vehicles with guns drawn for traffic stops? Immediately shooting a man with a toy gun? Shooting a mentally ill teenage already held down and subdued? Too much. Too many. Too often.

[bravenak]

127. No!! I will say what I want about what I want!!

You do not have the privilege to tell me what to say or what to complain about!!!

My sons should be able to be disrespectful and impolite and survive a police encounter! His tone or attitude should not factor into whether he lives or dies!! You basically just told me that my sons have to ' stay in their places'. Fuck that!! The police should be able to do their jobs without shooting disrespectful black boys. Fucking plantation mentality!

[Cha]

50. Yes, the "Hate" is rampant everywhere and especially with the Police against young Black

boys before they can become men.

Mahalo for your OP, she~

[sheshe2]

52. The news has been so incredibly sad Cha

One after another they die. POC are being hunted down and murdered.

Did you notice so many newbies have come to this thread in support of this needless violence? One was tombstoned before I finished my reply.

So young. They were so young.

[Fred Sanders]

53. A citizenry armed to the teeth as America is, is going to make any cop nervous..you did build that.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

55. A better question: When are "Peace Officers" going to be jailed for disturbing the peace?

[lexington filly]

82. Life isn't a video game and police are accountable.

17 shots at a guy spells incompetence. A cop cannot help himself because of fast heart rate, biology? Just can't help it? Then drastically reduce the number of bullets that can be fired too easily, quickly. Having to reload may give the cop time to actually "think." Which I thought is why they're hired rather than to be automatic ammo spraying machines. Every law enforcement officer in this country should be required to wear a camera with sound. If we've learned anything from the internet, at the least we've learned that an "officer's story" isn't always the truth; consider the ones we don't see. And the law enforcement industry always protects its own and justifies itself. Officer cameras would arm the public against the bad apples.
17 shots later, a boy is dead. No heroes here.

[wundermaus]

140. The current trend is 16 for a POC

If you are white and wealthy, a wink and a nod.

We've come a long way, haven't we?

Makes you kinda proud doesn't it?

(makes me want to scream)

[Kalidurga]

148. It is abundantly clear we need to disarm the Peace Keepers.

Most situations do not call for armed police officers. We could do like in England where they have a special force that is armed. That force can be sent to situations that are likely to require a gun, like an armed robbery at a bank, a domestic call where a suspect is armed, any situation like that. But, for the everyday situations where 99.999% of the time there is no weapon whatsoever and it's not violence ie noise violations, speeding, shoplifting etc... no guns neccesary.

[AnalystInParadise]

151. Good luck with that

n/t

[Kalidurga]

152. I am sure it won't happen

it is clear it needs to happen though

[napkinz]

154. ...

http://www.liberalamerica.org/2014/10/09/claytoonz-sudden-black-movements/

[sheshe2]

155. This! Exactly!

TY Napkinz~

[yesiwasacop]

161. WARNING***** GRAPHIC

The original question was how many shots does it take to bring someone down. Here are links to three videos of officer involved shootings.

You make the choice to watch.....

LAPD pursuit- unknown how many shots were fired by the LAPD cops, but the suspects hit the cop cars with 11 shots

Miami grow house shooting. Dont know how many times police shot this guy either, but he was up fighting quite a while despite being shot several times:

And this last one:

[GGJohn]

163. Also, I think it was back in the late 70's, early 80's,

Las Vegas cops shot a guy hopped up on PCP 21 times, including 2 to the head and he kept coming at them, his body finally told his brain that it was dead, but you just never know how many rounds it willl take to bring someone down.

[Spazito]

166. Gosh, it seems your OP attracted an interesting amalgum of 'experts'...

eager to defend the use of 16 or 17 shots to kill someone.

I loved your poetry in your OP, it is very powerful, moving.

[Rex]

169. Interesting that some of them think a cop and a soldier have the exact same job.

Very telling imo.

[Spazito]

171. Yep, says it all, doesn't! n/t

[hifiguy]

170. Deader than King Tut.