This message was self-deleted by its author

[KMOD]

This message was self-deleted by its author (KMOD) on Sat Nov 7, 2015, 09:33 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[uppityperson]

1. She should be released for self monitoring. Having worked with ebola, she, like Dr Spencer, will

be very aware of monitoring themselves and get help as soon as they think they may be coming down with it. She is HIGHLY motivated to do so and should be released asap.

Thank you for the story and thank you to Kaci Hickox for helping as you could.

"We need more health care workers to help fight the epidemic in West Africa. The U.S. must treat returning health care workers with dignity and humanity. "


In this Wednesday, Oct. 22, 2014 file photo, a child stands near a sign advising of a quarantined home in an effort to combat the spread of the Ebola virus in Port Loko, Sierra Leone.

[LisaL]

2. Dr. Spencer was out and about.

Going out in public, using public transportation, going bowling, eating out. So it's certainly not-self isolation.

[riderinthestorm]

4. Self-MONITORING does not mean isolation...

[LisaL]

6. Then I don't think self-monitoring is enough.

[uppityperson]

9. It has worked so far. Dr Spencer got help before he became contagious. No one has contacted

ebola from self monitored health care provider.

Instead you want to take away their civil rights for no reason beyond public paranoia.

She tested negative. She is not infectious. She is highly motivated to seek help if she gets any symptoms.

You are taking away her civil rights.

[LisaL]

13. You don't know that yet.

The incubation period is nowhere near over. You don't know if the people he was in contact with got infected or not.

[uppityperson]

16. It has worked so far. I am not willing to take away someone's civil rights like seem to.

She tested negative. She is not infectious. She is highly motivated to seek help if she gets any symptoms.

[morningfog]

33. When it is shown Spencer infected no one, will you calm down?

[MattBaggins]

144. I highly doubt it

The fear-mongers will win out in the end and healthcare workers will stop volunteering to help those stricken with Ebola because of the arm chair virologists.

[SheilaT]

98. Do you actually understand at what point

someone with Ebola can pass it on to someone else? Now think real hard, because it's been explained here about twenty gazillion times.

Is it the moment the person as gotten the virus from someone else? No, it's not. Is it in the period of time before they get symptoms? No, it is not.

It's not until the person actually has symptoms, and even then at the beginnings of a fever part of the course of the disease, it is amazingly unlikely that the infected person can pass Ebola to someone else. It's not until the person is very sick, vomiting, explosive diarrhea, and bleeding that they can pass it on.

It is NOT airborne, and to bleat, "Oh but what if it becomes airborne" displays such a profound ignorance of diseases and how they spread that you need to go off and learn some things before you post again on this topic.

I am getting extremely tired of people here who clearly haven't a clue just how this disease spreads and posting their misinformation here.

[seabeyond]

99. the huge issue is posts like yours have been repeatedly given to the same people and they ignore it

to continue the "what ifs", that have never transpired and will not.

what is that? it is not from lack of effort giving the information. that is not only scientifically, academically but thru experience seen to be valid. yet, repeatedly ignored. blatantly ignored.

why?

[SheilaT]

110. Why? My guess is that far too many who post here on DU

watch too many movies and too much TV which constantly spread misinformation about all sorts of things. Fox News and the others have been bad enough, but there are movies and TV shows out there which, while dramatically satisfying, are totally wrong about lots of stuff. I think perhaps more than one out there has shown some disease suddenly becoming an airborne one, and most people think it can happen that way. No, it can't. Diseases just don't change how they can be passed on. Period. End of story.

Plus, it's a lot of fun to scare-monger, and it's even more fun to sit back and feel superior to someone who risked his or her life to help victims of one of the worst diseases ever, rather than understand none of us are at risk.

[seabeyond]

115. your first point. i do not watch tv. those movies or shows.

so that whole angle isnt on my radar.

interesting.

cause that would at least explain people that are surprising me with their comments.

some, i know why they are doing it.

[SheilaT]

191. I enjoy a good movie or TV show as much as anyone.

I tend to know enough about things to see what's totally made up. Too many people think that if it's in a movie it must be true.

Right now I'm at Mile Hi Con in Denver, a science fiction convention. This morning I attended a panel called Rocks in Their Heads: Stupid Geology all about the truly stupid geology in so many movies. We all laughed hysterically at so many of them, mainly because real s-f fans tend to be reasonably knowledgeable about real science, more so than the general public and a lot more so than at least some people who post here on DU. And at the very end, the statement was made that we don't so much mind the stupid geology in movies, but are very bothered by those who assume it must be true.

One movie was talked about in which to somehow save the earth, they're going to use bombs to create a magnitude 17 earthquake. I'll spare you the details the seismologist on the panel gave us, but that would essentially vaporize the earth. But a lot of people have no understanding that the Richter scale is logarithmic, and so they get away with something that stupid. And people here on DU haven't any clear understanding of how diseases are transmitted despite what they've been told over and over again, because they think a stupid "what if?" is a valid question.

[seabeyond]

192. interesting.

but even more fun that you are in denver, doing what you are doing. sounds like a blast and a wonderful way to spend the weekend.

thanks sheliat.

[Horse with no Name]

129. Exactly.

Not ONE person in this country has contracted this disease without being a HIGH RISK, ie healthcare workers.

[treestar]

120. Abundance of caution is the American way now

especially after 911. Look at Mr. Duncan. And his did spread. People may worry about the person becoming ill and having a chance to infect someone before they get to the hospital - or get to the hospital and not be recognized, though after Mr. Duncan, that may not be very likely.

I can see the argument but don't understand the vitriol. After all Fox and Co. have done, it makes sense Americans would want anyone exposed quarantined for 21 days - not to defend that but to see it as something Less than Evil People might think needed. Indeed the average person is likely to find the 21 days eminently reasonable, not some government plot to destroy all civil rights.

[seabeyond]

123. we do not provide abundance of caution to our workers though cause it is stupid. that suggests

prejudice to me point to ebola there, different from ebola here.

[uppityperson]

137. MrDuncan's ebola spread to health care workers dealing with his vomit, explosive feces, not a single

person living in the contaminated apartment got it.

Not a single person exposed to him got it EXCEPT for those health care workers caring for him as he died.

WHO did quarantining his family keep safe? None of them got it. They were exposed. They LIVED in the apartment with his shit, sweat, for days. The neighbor washed down his vomit with a hose while a woman in a sari watched. He sat in the ER with no protection, his contaminated blanket sat on a chair there for hours exposing other patients and families.

NONE of them got ebola.

Yes, it did spread but to the health care workers directly caring for him.

Quarantining his family was appropriate but did nothing to keep anyone safe. Quarantining asymptomatic returning health care workers
is wrong as would be quarantining all health care workers, all hospital staff, who take care of people with ebola.

[seabeyond]

142. it is like, we are being asked to validate a lie, to appease those ignorant, ergo, ... fearful.

it is like we are being asked to create an illusion, our reality.

i do not get that. no no no. today, so much of our reality, that we live, that hurts us.... is a lie.

and this is just another lie, we are being told, we will validate, because people are afraid.

very very interesting in the mob reality.

[morningfog]

164. Of course we do. No one was infected by Dr. Spencer in the few hours that he had a slight fever

before isolation.

[Logical]

176. NEITHER DO YOU! nt

[treestar]

105. I don't think the law looks on quarantine as a civil rights violation

Communicable diseases are a different breed. It's only 21 days. Maybe it's not really necessary. And the red herring about testing negative now, what's that about? We know it could still show up in the 21 days.

Damned whatever they do, as the self monitoring people created storms over the fact they were not quarantined.

[seabeyond]

113. the first day of her quarantine some one LIED.... LIED about her developing ebola in

that small period of time to validate the quarantine.

that is why it is relevant she tested she did not have it.

by friday night, they had her on her death bed. and there was NO ebola.

do you not want ot know who lied and why? i do.

[treestar]

118. Who lied about anything?

She tested negative. Did someone say she tested positive? Who?

[seabeyond]

119. good question. who? friday she is held. she has no info at all. no rights. cannot

take care of basic needs and these people holding her are not taking care of basic needs.

three times temperature tested with oral came up 98.6. one doctor did a forehead, she tests 101. he immediately says. that is wrong. you do not have a fever.

by that night.... fever. ebola. 101. then later. symptoms worsening.

see see this was a good cal by christie

he saved us

ummm, no. no fever. no ebola.

fuckin game

[Warpy]

132. No, quarantine was handled a lot better in the days of scarlet fever

The patient was quarantined in the home. People living with the patient but not yet ill went to work and shopped for food. Most didn't become ill.

The way NY and NJ are handling this is stupid. There is no other word for it. Medical personnel are not all exposed. Most will not get sick. Those who do, will notice and since they know what death from Ebola is like, they will come in for evaluation and treatment at the slightest sign of illness.

This overreaction is completely unnecessary for health care workers. Civilians will also self monitor since they've seen what that disease does and they've seen infected people get well and walk out of the hospital here in the First World. They will self report.

[LeftInTX]

180. This quarantine in NJ is overkill

The Dallas nurses who were quarantined after Pham and Vinson were diagnosed only had to stay out of enclosed public places, such as public transportation, church, stores etc. They could stay at home and were allowed to walk outside, ride in cars and live with their families. Those that chose the room and board option in the hospital weren't stuck in crazy isolation tents

Kaci was treated like a criminal at the airport. She's stuck in an isolation tent with no TV, a toilet that doesn't flush etc. She's treated as if she already has Ebola.

I know it cost tax dollars to clean Dr. Spencer's apartment, trace his contacts, clean the bowling alley etc. But how much is it costing taxpayers for Kaci's hospital bills?

[Warpy]

181. Yes, her conditions are inhumane.

Even if they put her up in a hotel, it would still be inhumane. Jail is jail, whether or not it is furnished with a TV and drapes that match a bedspread.

Christie is a grandstanding fool who has rejected the best available medical advice.

[uppityperson]

140. A negative ebola test is a "red herring"?

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

"Damned whatever they do, as the self monitoring people created storms over the fact they were not quarantined."
No, the fearful and ignorant and media created storms.

[Marrah_G]

168. It's worked so far and you are talking about people who KNOW more about this virus then anyone

Have some respect for who they are and what they have done.

[uppityperson]

7. I don't know if they understand the difference. It is odd.

[riderinthestorm]

10. I'm beginning to feel like a repetitious parrot lol....nt

[uppityperson]

11. oh yeah. nt

[magical thyme]

76. I don't think they understand the ramifications if they start quarantining and locking down

healthcare workers treating Ebola patients in this country.

If you quarantine returning healthcare workers due to their having treated Ebola patients, then you have to quarantine any healthcare workers exposed to Ebola patients here. Otherwise it becomes discrimination.

With staffing cut to the bone, they can't expect any more of us. I'm lying here in pain from running my ass off today. My legs and feet hurt so much, I can't bring myself to get up and shower.

Increase workloads any more because of staff in quarantine while they treat an Ebola patient and for 21 days after, and disrupt those volunteers lives any further, and there will be no volunteers to treat Ebola patients. There will be walk outs.

They were forced to move Pham and Vinson out of Dallas because of staffing issues; per Dr. Sanjay Gupta, the inside scoop was fear of nurses simply walking out.

[KMOD]

88. Completely agree with everything you wrote, magical thyme

Hope you get some rest.

[uppityperson]

5. "self monitoring" and he called for help as soon as he had a mild fever, way below when he needed to

He was out and about BEFORE he was contagious. I am sure you read his temp was 100.3, not the inaccurately reported 103.

[LisaL]

14. Below when he needed to?

That's ridiculous. When is the exact moment these patients become infectious?
If you can't tell, then how can you tell when it's needed?

[uppityperson]

17. CDC now says 100.4. His was below that.

From cdc site

Monitor your health for 21 days. Watch for symptoms of Ebola: fever (temperature of 100.4°F/38°C† or higher), severe headaches, muscle pain, diarrhea, vomiting, stomach pain, unexplained bleeding or bruising.

Until you show those symptoms, you have less chance of being contagious than an asteroid falling through your roof into your lap. Per CDC.

[LisaL]

20. Does it mean he was not infectious at the time?

He tested positive for Ebola. Which means there was enough virus in his blood to test positive.
I am pretty sure that means he was infectious already, even though his fever wasn't even high enough.

[uppityperson]

22. Not contagious until symptomatic and CDC has allowed some time between symptoms showing and

being contagious to be safe.

[riderinthestorm]

23. It took several hours after he called before the ambulance arrived to take him to hospital

We have no idea what his temp was by the time he had a blood draw. We only know what it was when he self-reported himself.

Do you?

I'd love to see a link to that.

[GeorgeGist]

94. You're a real font of opinion ...

what credentials do you have?

[kestrel91316]

60. The legal definition of potentially infectious is a temperature of 100.4F.

Though since it is common knowledge and scientific FACT that minimal virus is found in the body that early on, there is virtually zero risk of transmitting Ebola prior to that level of fever.

If you are going to claim otherwise, sweetcakes, it's up to YOU to back your insinuations up with some links to the peer-reviewed, published studies to prove your case. Epidemiological data says NOBODY has developed Ebola infection who did not have obvious exposure to an ILL VICTIM. There are ZERO mysterious, unexplainable cases.

"Nurses" like you are a menace to society.

[Crunchy Frog]

92. Legal definition of potentially infectious!?

You don't acknowledge any possibility that there could be a difference between "legal" definitions and what may actually happen in the field?

Most of the patients have been in Africa, where little is known about the exact details of each individual's exposure. Even Dr. Spencer says that he doesn't know how, when, or where he got exposed.

There's a lot that we just don't know yet about this disease, and until we do, "legal" definitions coming from the CDC mean about as much as the CDC statement that any US hospital could safely care for an Ebola patient, or that only basic contact and droplet precautions were needed.

The more I read on DU, the more convinced I am that my NY governor has done the right thing, though I do think the policy will need more tweaking to find exactly the right balance.

Looking foreward to the snarky retort that I will get in response to this post.

[kestrel91316]

145. Your governor, "Democrat" or not, is a complete moron.

CDC and public health professionals and NY's own top medical officials all say they either weren't consulted or that this is a completely boneheaded, unwarranted, inappropriate move.

CDC are the experts on this disease and thanks to 40 years of EPIDEMIOLOGIC DATA, we know very well what circumstances lead to the spread of Ebola. Pretty much wallowing in urine, feces, vomit and blood of an infected and near-death person. Oh, and the cultural practice of emptying out the colon of corpses with one's bare hands prior to burial, which nobody wants to talk about in polite society but is common knowledge among epidemiologists.

Asymptomatic people are NOT contagious. Mildly symptomatic people are barely contagious.

This is a medical fact and is based on analysis of epidemiologic statistics showing absolutely ZERO cases EVER where a victim was not known to have had major contact with a highly contagious, seriously ill victim. There are NO mysterious, unexplained infections with Ebola. Period.

The only people who DON'T know much about Ebola are the ones who are blinded to facts because their heads are shoved up their asses or glued to their bibles.

[kestrel91316]

146. The moronic panic in NY, NJ, and IL by governors who

need to be replaced with people with BRAINS is no different from the AIDS panic years ago that destroyed Ryan White's life and the lives of countless other Americans. There is simply no end to the stupid in this land of scientific and medical IGNORAMUSES.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_White

[seabeyond]

148. right on. so fuckin right on. lol. seeing the torches and pitch forks, walking down ryans

street. coming to get him. do we REALLY want to do this again?

[jrussell466]

200. torches & pitchforks

People with non contagious illnesses /conditions that cause extreme pain are being treated "like criminals" by the same type hysteria pushed nearly daily by media, blaming them for the 2-3% of population of drug addicts" who were addicts or just like getting high too much way before many ever developed their illness, shunned by society, a Dr won't touch them, nobody standing up for their "civil rights" being violated every day! Was Mr.Duncan booted from the ER when he said his stomach hurt & red flags flew up "Aha, we have an addict here!" Maybe both nurses could've been spared if he was treated properly on 1st arrival at ER. The hysteria the supposedly educated people of this country seize upon at every opportunity, fueled by the media, disgusts me.From Aids on down to Ebola & all in between.

[Cal Carpenter]

8. No, it is not self-isolation, it is self-monitoring, and it has worked thus far

because no one has contracted ebola from the health care workers who have self-monitored, even those who tested positive (amber V & Nina P). Are you defending forced isolation of HCWs against their will?

Even after testing negative for ebola?

This is not medically necessary (even before the negative test, as long as people are not symptomatic) and it is a grave violation of civil rights.

It isn't a slippery slope, it is a fucking cliff and I can't believe people are defending it against all logic, medical knowledge, and human rights.

Time will tell if Dr. Spencer was infectious enough for ebola to spread before he checked into the hospital but there is no reason to assume he was.

[LisaL]

15. Ebola tests will be negative until symptoms develop.

We don't have a test to tell us if someone will become sick with Ebola or not while they are in the incubation period.

[uppityperson]

18. They are also not contagious if the test is negative, and until symptoms develop.

[LisaL]

21. Dr. Spencer was positive for Ebola, even though his fever was below guideline.

What does that tell you?

[Cal Carpenter]

24. It tells us that he self-monitored and checked in to the hospital when he had symptoms.

That's exactly the point. That is how it is supposed to work, and it has been working.

How many cases will you have to see before you accept this?

I've stayed out of the ebola threads almost entirely, until today. At this point, there is enough information available, and there are enough actual examples of people self-monitoring successfully that there is no excuse for this anti-science attitude and rhetoric.

The media fear-mongering and political opportunism is disgusting, and it is a shame to see it infecting DU.

[LisaL]

26. How many examples have you got?

I don't know what you are talking about there.

[Cal Carpenter]

28. Um, all of them?

Amber Vinson and Nina Pham who both self-monitored, check into the hospital when they got symptoms, recovered from ebola and didn't infect anyone in the process. Time will tell with Dr Spencer but there is no reason to assume he infected anyone.

There was also Dr Nancy Snyderman and a couple of others who self-monitored, did not get ebola, and (of course) did not infect anyone.

Cut through the hysteria and you can see that the protocols in terms of self-monitoring vs quarantine among those who treat ebola victims have worked. Ebola has not spread to the public. The only infections that occurred in the US were folks who caring for very ill, highly infectious patients. Because THAT is when it spreads.


I should know better than to be surprised at anything around here, but I am still amazed at how many people think it is just dandy for state governments to hold people against their will in isolation tents in hospitals, especially after they have tested negative for ebola and have no fever or other symptoms..

[LisaL]

35. Vinson was on the plane while already with low grade fever.

Hardly a good example.
And you can't tell that they didn't infect anyone because incubation period isn't over yet.
Nancy Snyderman agreed to isolation, rather than just self-monitoring.
She was apparently caught being out and put in mandatory quarantine.
Hardly a good example. Suggesting that you can not trust someone to even do what they agreed to.

[riderinthestorm]

45. Amber Vinsons temp was 99.5. The CDC gave her the go ahead

She was not symptomatic either.

Her self monitoring worked exactly as it should.

[LisaL]

49. Except for all the people that were on the plane with her, that had to be traced and monitored.

And all the people she was in contact with in OH.
Some of them are in quarantine, not just monitoring.
If each self-monitored worker results in so much work, you think that's efficient?

[riderinthestorm]

53. Better than violating civil rights.

[dhol82]

71. so....

how many of them have come down with ebola?

[Cal Carpenter]

51. Okay, my timeline was off

I feel like this has being on much longer. But that does not negate my greater point, because these few examples in the US are just icing on the cake in terms of what we know about ebola and how/when it is contagious.

Regardless, every minute that passes, the chance of any of Amber Vinson's contacts being diagnosed with ebola gets smaller.

She was on the plane with a low-grade fever with the permission of the CDC and her employer because it is not infectious at that stage.

Whatever Nancy Snyderman agreed to, the fact was she didn't need to be isolated in quarantine against her will. She never tested positive, and she never infected anyone. The whole debacle about her being seen in a car was media hype fear-mongering and irrelevant to public health.

Bottom line is, there have been no new infections from any of the self-monitoring health workers. Thanks to SCIENCE, and the ability to learn about transmission of ebola through the thousands of actual cases of it in W Africa, we can understand that forcing isolation before any symptoms or diagnosis is NOT NECESSARY.


So a couple questions for you - when the 21 days are up for Dr Spencer, Amber Vinson, and Nina Pham, if no one was infected by any of them, will you accept the facts about self-monitoring being sufficient among HCWs?

And - do defend the practice of isolating/quarantining people in hospitals for 21 days against their will when they are asymptomatic have tested negative for ebola?

[seabeyond]

54. this is where lack of sense hits me upside the head. science, common sense, logical and experience

all has shown us where it becomes contagious, who it is a threat to (our medical staff) and how it is not easy to get.

all those in duncans room, no ebola.

every example we have had, has pointed to the ridiculous in quarantining for 21 days, entering conversation. and to not be on the same dance of putting medical staff and all supportive roles who deal with the ebola here shows the hypocrisy.

[kestrel91316]

62. Who did Ms. Vinson infect? Link, please.

[treestar]

122. Even thought the media is fear mongering, why is it so upsetting for DUers to discuss it?

We are not in irrational fear, so why can't we discuss it without all this vitriol? Why all the anger? We are not falling for the M$M hysteria, simply questioning whether quarantine is a good idea or not.

It seems to come down to trusting these individuals to go to the hospital is symptomatic and reveal their possible exposure rather than quarantine them for 21 days so everyone knows for sure. Give them the benefit of the doubt and there could still be errors. Mind you I am not defending the 21 days quarantine, simply saying that debating about and perhaps thinking the quarantine desirable is not so horrible and disgusting as people make it out to be. I would have thought on DU debate was doable.

[Cal Carpenter]

139. I can't answer that question

I am not upset by discussions of ebola and quarantines.

I am, however, frustrated by particular individuals who continue to repeat falsehoods despite evidence being shown to them multiple times. And I will vehemently counter those falsehoods, because we can't have a proper discussion without recognizing the difference between myth and fact, can we?

It isn't about emotional reactions, like whether or not forced quarantine is "horrible and disgusting". It is about what is best for public health. And using facts, rather than emotions or myths, demonstrates that forced quarantines are not only medically unnecessary, they may actually work against protecting public health.

Vitriol is defined as "cruel & bitter criticism". If you think pointing out facts in the face of falsehoods is cruel and bitter, that's your issue, not mine. In my opinion, repeating falsehoods in the face of facts and evidence is a far worse habit, particularly after a month or so of active discussion on the topic when the myths have been debunked.

[MattBaggins]

149. There are not enough of us healthcare workers to put us all in quarantine

[kestrel91316]

61. It sure as hell doesn't tell us he was a danger to society. If you are going to claim so,

it's up to you to prove it by showing us the peer-reviewed research to back your outlandish insinuations.

[Marrah_G]

169. AND HE WAS NOT CONTAGIOUS!

[Logical]

177. Tells me maybe his fever went up before they took the blood. He caught it just rising. nt

[Marrah_G]

172. So sick of your fear mongering

Enjoy your hysteria, I won't be seeing it anymore.

[Logical]

178. She loves the Drama. Not sure why. nt

[seabeyond]

30. so what? he was self monitoring, watching his health and behavior, while out and about. so? nt

[kestrel91316]

58. There is no issue with someone in isolation like this using local buses.

Which you would know if you had been paying the slightest attention or knew jack shit about epidemiology.

Read THIS before you go spouting off with the nonsense anymore:

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/hcp/monitoring-and-movement-of-persons-with-exposure.html#Controlled

He was free to use local transit SINCE HE WAS ASYMPTOMATIC.

You and your little friends need remedial reading comprehension.

[Marrah_G]

167. And he knew he was not contagious when he was out and about

He didn't know he was sick, but he sure as fuck knows when it is contagious.

[Logical]

175. And how many people do you predict he has infected??? We will know shortly. Does the....

fever part confuse you?

I await your prediction.

[riderinthestorm]

3. + 1000 nt

[NJCher]

97. a check on the hysteria

I've re-read this thread and the people who are accusing those who are in favor of some type of quarantine for returning health care workers are not the ones exhibiting hysteria.

I think the hysterical ones are the people advocating that we go with self-monitoring.

This hysteria seems to be centered around the fact that there are those among us who admit to human error. Self-monitoring is a flawed concept simply because humans are flawed. Others have their own reasons, one of which is stated by Crunchy Frog, who maintains there is a lot we don’t know about this disease. See post 92, in which this concept is expanded.

Look at the inflammatory phrases and illogical sentences and phrases I've garnered:

Instead you want to take away their civil rights for no reason beyond public paranoia.

Above are two reasons, neither of which have anything to do with “public paranoia.” In fact, public paranoia is not a reason, it is a condition. I think the poster might be trying to say that those who advocate another position are paranoid, and if that is what the poster is saying, then they are attributing a motivation, which should not be done. It would be helpful if the poster read up on attribution theory.

Here’s a poster who wants a list of credentials:

94. You're a real font of opinion ...

what credentials do you have?


And another requesting that posters produce:

“peer-reviewed, published studies to prove your case.”

If you had been paying the slightest attention or knew jack shit about epidemiology. it's up to you to prove it by showing us the peer-reviewed research to back your outlandish insinuations.

there is no excuse for this anti-science attitude and rhetoric.

lack of sense hits me upside the head. science, common sense, logical and experience

You and your little friends need remedial reading comprehension.

Which might be somewhat appropriate if the only reasons for the quarantine position were medical or strictly confined to science, but they’re not. For example, my position is that we are depending on self-monitoring by humans. How many disasters in human history can, in retrospect, be attributed to human error? Oh, the Titanic, the Exxon Valdez, Challenger, Chernobyl, just to name a few.

I say "semi-appropriate" because I don't understand the need for four-letter words and denigration (ad hominem) attacks of those with a different point of view. What point does "little friends" accomplish, other than to possibly assuage the poster's own indignation. If this person is trying to convince, it's a poor way to do it.

Another position is that there is a lot we don’t know about this disease. Still others question certain points in the CDC protocol. What is the response to such questioning? Fuming and name-calling.

I could go on but I won’t. I’ve proved my point, and here’s what I see: a group of people who seem to need to believe that medical professionals are infallible and who are very upset that there are others who don’t. The foundation of their argument is fallacious, because it attributes the motive of “paranoia,” which is a condition and which is not necessarily reflected in the points of the posters who advocate a quarantine period. Those who are whipping themselves into a state of indignity are not even aiming at the right target.

Furthermore, many posters who are so indignant about this situation seem to feel the need to call in “science” to bolster their argument. Again, get the right target, please.

I, like many others, acknowledge that is important for the U.S. to have workers volunteering to help this crisis on the ground in Africa. It is absolutely essential if this scourge is to be eradicated. The quarantine doesn’t have to be a mandatory 21-day—it could be varied, based on the degree to which the worker dealt with Ebola.

Furthermore, quarantine doesn’t have to be horrible, even though in Kaci’s case, it certainly was. Being confined to one’s home isn’t the end of the world, in fact, many working people choose to take their vacations and stay home. The returning workers should not have been treated the way she was. All those things need to be ironed out. I agree that such treatment is inexcusable.

One more thing: if I were a returning health care worker, I would put myself in self-quarantine, regardless of what the law is. The cost, in view of what the consequences of spreading this disease could be, are inconsequential.


Cher

[seabeyond]

100. simple question cher. all the people dealing with disease in u.s. should get the same quarantine

you advocate for those people that are "over there". per your argument, you should adamantly, even more so, be arguing that all people that come in contact with ebola patience should be quarantined. how does that work.

answer this,

ems transport with cops.... they go into quarantine.

medical staff work with patient, they go into quarantine. they go in after their shift?

for 21 days

and we bring in the next team to treat patient?

after their shift they go into a 21 day quarantine and we bring in the next shift?

or do we lock them in the hospital to treat patient until he is virus free, or dead, and then they go into quarantine?

do tell me how this works

cause all i see is a quick an easy answer to lock up "those" people yet ignore the very same argument here in the u.s. with al the workers that come in contact with the same thing as those people.

you give me a reasonable, common sense, logical answer to that question.

[NJCher]

114. there are logistics people for that

It can be done.

I am not advocating for anything that's impossible.


Cher

p.s. I think there is something to be said for "Ebola patience," i.e., recognizing that volunteering has one more step, and that might be quarantine in one's own home, if feasible.

[seabeyond]

116. so. you are comfortable making the demand medical staf coming into the country be quarantined,

and yet, those within the country, doing the same damn thing, not.

that makes no sense what so ever.

that is a flag, about it being "over there" and penalizing "those" people, for whatever reason.

[NJCher]

126. I never said that

re-read, please. And stick to the facts.

You are trying to make an issue out of "over there" and you have nothing to go on.

I'm afraid I must say that you are arguing on tangential issues that you are bringing up ipso facto. You did not touch one point I made in my post.


Cher

[seabeyond]

130. simple question. again. if you support the quarantine of medical staff coming into u.s., then you

must support the quarantine of medical staff, and all supporting roles that come into contact with ebola patients in the u.s.

right?

yes or no.

[MattBaggins]

156. No it can't be done

Go stay in your house along for 21 days. I say alone since I am certain you would kick your family out.

Go ahead and call your boss and tell him you won't be back for 3 weeks.

[etherealtruth]

12. Basing public health policy on emotion,, public opinion and political expediency

... instead of science is always a good idea and keeps us safe

[hedgehog]

19. It's not clear who is responsible for putting her into quarantine - the Federal Government

or New Jersey.

[LisaL]

25. Definetely not the govertnment.

[oberliner]

31. It is clear - Governor Christie

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and a New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie said they were adding screening protocols for Ebola at both JFK and Newark airports.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebola-virus-outbreak/new-york-new-jersey-will-quarantine-ebola-doctors-n233536

[drray23]

147. i am not sure its even legal

If this keeps going on , some may challenge that in court. There is a clear law for federal officials (i.e cdc) to mandate quarantine when they see it necessary, however, I do not think state laws allow for that.

I would not be surprised that this nurse that is being held without being able to talk to her lawyer start suing new jersey.

link to cnn article where she gave an interview:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/26/health/new-jersey-quarantined-nurse/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

its appealing. She is in a paper gown with no shower, no magazines, no tv, nothing in her room. Basically like being in jail in solitary confinement. They are not even allowing her to talk to her lawyer. This has to be a gross violation of her rights.

[oberliner]

193. I think you mean appalling

You wrote appealing.

If you meant appalling, I agree with you.

[drray23]

194. yes sorry. its a typo

indeed its appalling.

[kestrel91316]

42. Oh yes it is! Cuomo and Christie decided that imprisonment of medical

personnel for 21 days without due process was a smart move, since returning aid workers have killed so many Americans by giving them Ebola.

Oh, wait.........

[Fred Sanders]

66. Without consulting medical experts or giving notice, all to pander to the media fear.

[kestrel91316]

69. We have an epidemiologist and former EIC officer here on DU who is

incognito. This person can't stand to even read all these insane threads, let alone comment for fear of going off on the fearmongers and fascists and being PPR'd.

[kath]

106. Question, kestrel - what is a EIC officer?

thanks for the sanity you have been trying to bring to this board!

[kestrel91316]

136. Oops, I meant EIS - Epidemic Intelligence Service.

http://www.cdc.gov/eis/

"The Epidemic Intelligence Service (EIS) is a unique 2-year post-graduate training program of service and on-the-job learning for health professionals interested in the practice of applied epidemiology. Since 1951, over 3,000 EIS officers have responded to requests for epidemiologic assistance within the United States and throughout the world. EIS officers are on the public health frontlines, conducting epidemiologic investigations, research, and public health surveillance both nationally and internationally."

Recent EIS Investigations
Assistance with tracking cases in multistate outbreak of fungal meningitis associated with injection of methylprednisolone acetate solution
Shelter surveillance after Hurricane Sandy
Investigation of suspected organ-transplant associated human rabies case
Legionnaires disease outbreak at an acute care hospital
Investigation of necrotizing enterocolitis in infants receiving feeding thickening agents, Washington state
Multistate outbreak of Salmonella Typhimurium infections associated with exposure to microbiology laboratories
Teen driving practices and parental perceptions of teen driving in rural North Dakota
Legionnaires' disease outbreak associated with travel on a cruise ship, Louisiana
Invasive listeriosis among pregnant women exposed to contaminated cantaloupe, Colorado

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yep. We have one of those folks on DU, been here for years.

[kath]

196. Thanks. I wouldn't have known what those letters stood for either.

but perhaps the Google would have been a little more help with that than it was for EIC.

[treestar]

107. What law did they use to justify it?

There likely are laws regarding communicable diseases, which don't involve due process. Quarantine is not imprisonment. Let's not confuse the legal positions.

[kestrel91316]

138. Throwing somebody in an unheated tent in NY at night in October,

barking orders at them, failing to provide an explanation of why they are being held in the form of a legally valid quarantine order, refusing to provide more than miniscule amounts of food/water, and all presumably under armed guard who'd gladly shoot her to death if she walked out - yep, I call that imprisonment.

[seabeyond]

27. so. she didnt have a fever, she doesnt have ebola. last night fever and worsening conditions was too

convenient. i want to know who started that rumor.

[LisaL]

29. She had a fever of 101. But she thinks it's because she was anxious and her face was flashed.

[seabeyond]

32. no, she did not have a fever. three times mouth thermonoter came back 98.6. forehead scanner

placed it at 101. and the doctor immediately said.... NO... you do NOT have a fever.

After my temperature was recorded as 98.6 on the oral thermometer, the doctor decided to see what the forehead scanner records. It read 101. The doctor felts my neck and looked at the temperature again. “There’s no way you have a fever,” he said. “Your face is just flushed.”

then the rest of the story we heard, that her "conditions" were worsening was pure bullshit. there was no condition to begin with.
so tell me. what fucker would play games with the news, to hype people up in fear.

why arent you pissed about that.

[greatlaurel]

37. Outstanding post, thanks.

Why would they do this to Kaci Hickox. If they really thought she was infectious, why would you let her sit around in the airport for hours. Sounds to me like Christie and Cuoma were looking for someone to make an example of for political grandstanding. Cannot believe people are falling for this garbage.

[seabeyond]

39. "Cannot believe people are falling for this garbage." reminds me of TSA and

patriot act and the people falling for that. no different.

[greatlaurel]

47. Yes, fear and panic prevent people from thinking rationally.

You are correct, this is very similar.

[AlinPA]

72. Christie is running for President. He is doing this for his campaign.

[seabeyond]

73. i wonder if it was his people that lied last night her "conditions" were worsening. nt

[greatlaurel]

80. I was out in the garden and the same thought occurred to me.

It really sounds like something Christie and his group of thugs would say. This poor woman is now imprisoned by these people who will say and do anything to advance themselves. I hope her family is getting her an attorney right now. If I were her I would be a lot more afraid of the Christie thugs than Ebola.

Would the statement about her condition worsening be a violation of HIPAA?

[riderinthestorm]

48. + 1000 nt

[kestrel91316]

63. False. Oral thermometer is the gold standard.

Forehead thermometers are notoriously inaccurate.

You're a "nurse" and you don't know this basic fact???? Good god.

[Crunchy Frog]

93. Maybe they should be doing rectal. n/t

[kestrel91316]

141. She had NO fever. Forehead thermometers are

notoriously unreliable and her CORE temp was verified as absolutely normal THREE TIMES.

You've been told this repeatedly and you keep telling the same lie. This has to stop.

[randome]

34. I'd be cautious about returning to Clown-Land Texas, if I was her.

Some nut case might think she is a threat to America.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[LisaL]

36. WTF does it have to do with Texas?

She was never in TX.

[randome]

38. She returned to Dallas.

With what she went through in NJ, I can imagine her going through similar high drama in Dallas.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[LisaL]

40. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Who returned to Dallas?
This woman is being held in quarantine in NJ.

[randome]

43. Whoops. There is a related story on the site but it's about Nina Pham, not Kaci.

I skimmed too fast.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[greatlaurel]

41. The people who argue the nurse is contagious when she tested negative for ebola are scaremongers.

She could not possibly infect anyone when she has no virus in her blood. People need to use some common sense. If you keep pushing the fear and panic, then perhaps your agenda is not public health, but pushing the right wing meme of the week.

[kestrel91316]

44. I am cracking up at how few of the 43 replies I can actually see.

And I have a good idea of who the person on my Ignore list is that's posting them. Maybe a couple of people.

[greatlaurel]

52. I think I need to spend some time expanding my ignore list.

This thread has exposed a number of posters who are pushing very authoritarian ideals. Very scary people.

[greatlaurel]

50. What the health care workers are doing is protecting us by working to end the outbreak.

Attitudes like yours harm public health. You are pushing an ignorant and hateful agenda. Good to see these attitudes exposed. Sunlight is the best disinfectant for hatemongers.

[kestrel91316]

55. I'm just curious how someone who espouses such an authoritarian

policy manages to consider themselves a DEMOCRAT.

Yeah, STARVE the medical professionals who are working abroad to keep us safe in addition to imprisoning them without due process or medical justification. That'll teach 'em to help anyone but Amurkans!!!!

[dilby]

65. I guess it's a big tent.

But sometimes I wish we could kick people the fuck out of it. That person disgusts me to no end and I am still trying to wrap my head around their ideals.

[kestrel91316]

67. People like that are why I have been gone from DU most of this year.

[dilby]

70. Well stick around, because we need reason over emotional distress here.

And welcome back.

[Crunchy Frog]

195. Not for awhile, sadly. n/t

[dilby]

59. No she expected to be treated like you or me.

If that was too much for her to ask then I am sorry. Treating her like a piece of shit criminal because she had the balls to do what you or I wouldn't is fucked up. Your comment disgusts me on so many levels, I am sorry you feel that the HOMELAND is so much more important than the rest of the World. Maybe someday you will grow up and realize the only difference between you and someone in Africa is a couple of molecules in your fucking DNA.

[kestrel91316]

68. [phone] 000

[AlinPA]

77. Thank you; well said.

[AlinPA]

74. Your putting "noble" in quotes makes me question your respect for those volunteers.

[seabeyond]

84. i dunno. if choosing sittin next to her or you? i chose her. your post is nasty. nt

[kestrel91316]

154. Indeed.

[kestrel91316]

153. How is wanting to be treated the same as people from West Africa who DIDN'T

go there to provide aid wanting to be "treated like a queen"?

How is not wanting to be treated like a criminal, spoken to harshly and in an accusatory tone, thrown into an UNHEATED TENT IN NY AT NIGHT IN OCTOBER, not given any explanation of why she was being held against her will, not given adequate food or water - how is all of that being "treated like a queen"??

Your obvious hatred for people who volunteer their professional services to alleviate suffering abroad AND PROTECT THIS COUNTRY BY DOING SO marks you as someone not remotely a Democrat.

She didn't want "recognition". She wanted to be treated with simple respect. Of course as Leona Helmsley Jr. you'd think they were one and the same and not something the Little People are entitled to.

[MattBaggins]

159. She wanted to be treated like a queen?

Project much

[seabeyond]

166. yes. a hot meal and facility to keep her hygeine up is not asking to be treated like a queen.

but, a person.

right on ann

from day one, it was obvious, you know.

[smokey nj]

82. This is an awful post. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[seabeyond]

85. check 79. she truly out did herself. nt

[smokey nj]

87. Yeah, I saw that one after I responded. I started to write a response to that one as well, but I

was having a difficult time composing one that was diplomatic and I figured she wasn't worth the hide.

[uppityperson]

143. Me too.

[treestar]

111. This is what I don't get

Here is a person brave enough to go to West Africa and work with patients, saw a child die of it, who would one would think be all for 21 day quarantine here - something doesn't sit right.

[MH1]

135. Lack of information and decent treatment?

Did she know when she got on the plane what to expect when she landed in the US? If I understand correctly, no one told her; also when she landed the entire process was a clusterf**k and she only got what information she specifically asked for, if the askee even knew the answer.

Perhaps had she received full information about what to expect, and if the people dealing with her had been respectful of the challenge and inconvenience placed on her, she might have a different attitude.

Although, the quarantine idea does not seem to be widely accepted by medical professionals. Because it isn't considered medically or rationally justified, and it imposes a huge cost that is likely to diminish the world's response to the crisis and thus cause MORE suffering and death.

But for purpose of discussion, let's say quarantine IS justified. Assuming Kaci's story is accurate, is this how it should be done?

By the way, all those doctors and nurses already in Africa and expecting to return to their regular practices and hospital duties shortly after their scheduled return - now they will be returning to those practices and duties 21 days later than expected. Who is going to treat their patients in the meantime? This throws hospital staffing into a total mess. Let's say that it's warranted - what do we do about it? And how do we keep sending doctors and nurses over there to help treat ebola at the source, when we throw this restriction into the equation? What happens if US health care professionals just stop going there? More brown people will die. But for people who don't care about that, consider that the longer the epidemic continues in Africa, the more chance there is that more ebola cases in NON healthcare workers will make it to the US. These are the cases that are more likely to put average members of the public at risk.

[kestrel91316]

155. Boston and Washington will treat them in a civilized manner if they return

via those airports. NY, NJ, and O'Hare are going to treat them like criminals.

[Kali]

125. this is a disgusting attitude

in a thread full of paranoid disgusting attitude, yours stands out

[MH1]

133. What a callous post.

When was the last time you flew anywhere? Let alone a long international flight?

Flying is torturous enough for some of us. We expect when we get off the plane, that we go through a defined process reasonably expeditiously and get back to dealing with life normally. She was put in a situation where she was given no information about what was going to happen and when it would end. Of course she was upset by that. She must have been very anxious; for some people, a side effect of intense anxiety is hunger.

Yes, the very LEAST that could have been done for this returning hero was an offer of decent food / refreshment while the authorities figured out what the f*** they were doing.

The quarantine approach - even if it were medically justified, which I question - will have the effect of greatly diminishing the voluntary service of medical personnel at stopping ebola in Africa.

We have MUCH greater risk of an epidemic starting in the US by a traveler from the affected area who does not self-identify. Maybe they come here in the hopes of better medical care, or maybe just don't realize how sick they are. (I am not suggesting a travel ban - it wouldn't work - just that it's in our best interests to stop this epidemic at the source.)

Health care workers who have just spent weeks watching people die from this horrible disease are NOT the people we should be concerned about.

If quarantine is imposed (even though unnecessary), we should be trying to offset the negative impact on the affected health care workers. Everything possible should be done to celebrate the sacrifice these folks are making, and compensate them for their risk. The officials who "welcome" them back to the US should at least be pleasant, welcoming, and prepared to reduce the discomfort of the process as much as possible. (In defense of the officials involved in Kaci's situation, they probably were given edicts and bare-bones instructions if any at all, and no resources or leeway to handle it the way it SHOULD have been handled. I don't fault the individuals themselves - but I fault the politicians who are trying to use this for political points and put these public servants in such a bad position.)

[MattBaggins]

158. Are you fucking serious?

Most despicable post of the week

[Marrah_G]

171. Unfuckingbelievable

Off to ignore with all your panic stricken bullshit. Fuck the science, your fear knows best. YOu would have been one of the ones fighting to keep Ryan white out of school. Sick.

[fishwax]

190. wtf

[dilby]

56. You know when we treat these Noble Women and Men like Criminals we are sending a big

FUCK YOU to Africa. Anyone who thinks what is happening to this woman is right should seriously sit down and contemplate what the consequences will be for those in Africa when trained healthcare professionals fear being treated like a criminal more than catching Ebola and no longer go to fight on the front lines.

[NJCher]

83. connotation and denotation

Words like "noble" and "heroes" really have no place in this discussion. Whether one is noble or a hero has nothing to do with the fact that the person is a human. Humans make mistakes.

If this woman was treated like a criminal, then the people handling the situation at the airport need training in human relations. That is easily remedied.

I am an advocate for protecting civil rights on every front, including this one. My problem is that the arguments I see here are not impressive. They depend on shaming the persons who question this system of relying on self-monitoring and self-reporting. From what I read, it appears many of you think those people who question this system are just horrible because the medical professionals are heroes and courageous.

Very questionable arguments, and not convincing. At all.



Cher

[uppityperson]

150. Self monitoring and reporting has worked so far with every health care worker in USA who has gotten

ebola.

Yes, I do shame those who question this system, who say doctors and nurses are incapable of taking their own temperatures and monitoring themselves for symptoms and getting help when it is needed, who say this system has not worked when facts show it has.

We try to educate over and over and over that ebola is not that simple to catch, that exposure to an infectious person's bodily excretions, vomit, diarrhea, into a mucuous membrane or opening of the skin is needed. Yet there are those who continue to fear non-infectious, non-contagious people and want them involuntarily locked up.

There are those who call for all health care workers returning from W Africa to be quarantined yet ignore those here in the USA who have worked in facilities where ebola patients were or cared for them. There are those who say all of those people in the USA should be under a 21 day quarantine.

There are those who say locking up someone for 21 days isn't that big of a deal, regardless of whether or not they are contagious, regardless of whether or not self monitoring has worked as it should. There is media who is doing rapid vs accurate reporting, stirring up more fears to drive up readership.

I do not think "medical professionals are heroes and courageous" makes them better than anyone or are "incapable of making mistakes" as someone else put it. But I very much disagree with posters whose fears lead them to call for involuntary locking up of people who are not contagious, who have shown self monitoring and reporting works.

[treestar]

112. Really, people in Africa would resent her quarantine here?

They want us to get it too then, or we are saying fuck them? Look at the bigger picture.

[uppityperson]

152. Unnecessary quarantines will stop some people from going to help.

And locking up people who return from Africa yet letting our own ebola treating health care workers freely move about also sends a big message. You, know, people like Pham and Vinson.

[treestar]

197. Disagree

If I had the nerve or skill to go there to help, I would hardly let 21 days quarantine stop me. I might even understand it and be all for it.

[uppityperson]

198. And you are applying your "if you had the nerve, you'd have no problem" to everyone else?

I have the "nerve" but am not healthy enough to do it. I would not want to spend 21 days in isolation upon return when I am capable of self monitoring.

[treestar]

199. I don't see how it could be worse than being in Sierra Leone itself

We all trust ourselves to self monitor. But then those people who got on the cruise/plane/went bowling were supposedly a danger to us all. Seems the government is at fault no matter what it does.

Some people wouldn't trust others to "self monitor." As we can see, people won't abandon their flying/cruise plans in spite of having been caring for someone with the disease.

I'm not really worried about it, but some people might be. The same ones who were scandalized about the Flying Nurse and the Cruising Nurse. They figure you can't trust people to self monitor.

And denial seems a big part of it. Looking at Mr. Duncan not telling them up front about coming from Liberia (and of course they got the blame for not asking.)

I'd be afraid I might get it and worried about infecting others, so I wouldn't mind the quarantine, but then if I actually had been exposed, maybe I'd be affected by the same forces affecting these people and be in denial that it couldn't possibly happen to me.

[McCamy Taylor]

57. Proving that NY and NJ are just as stupid as Texas.

[dilby]

64. Is anyone suprised by this he shut down a bridge to punish people who were against him.

Doctors without Borders does not fit the Republican agenda and it certainly must be punished for that.

[deurbano]

75. Sadly.

[NJCher]

81. question

So what if just one person messes up with self-monitoring?

What if just one thermometer malfunctions?

What if just one mistake is made by a person who is self-monitoring and this person goes on a subway and infects dozens of people? Nobody has the names and addresses of people on a subway, so how are they going to be tracked down?

The bottom line to my question is how do you account for human error? If you can just please explain why I should not be concerned about human error, I will jump over to your side.

One other question, not related to self-monitoring:

--who picks up the $25 grand that cost the bowling alley owner to get his facility sanitized?

--same for the meatball shop. Who pays for that?

Regardless of whether the businesses needed to be sanitized or not, the fact is that they will take a severe hit in business unless they take that step. Perception is the problem and facts do not matter. How is that problem solved?

Please don't tell me that heroes and medical professionals don't make mistakes. We all know that is not the case because medical mistakes are the third leading cause of death in the U.S.



Cher

[seabeyond]

86. what if the end of the world happened tomorrow? you scenario doesnt fly so beyond a "what if"

[NJCher]

90. my question is sincere

so I suggest that if you care about credibility, you try answering it rather than dismissing it. Dismissal is easy. Answers are difficult.


Cher

[MattBaggins]

161. The answers are not difficult

Your questions are silly.

[KMOD]

91. People who are instructed to be self-monitored are educuated as to what symptoms to look for

The owner of the bridal shop in Cleveland, realized how over-the-top the concern with her catching Ebola was, once she understood it.

The thermometer malfunction theory is funny, in a way, since that is what happened to Kaci at the airport. It read too high. In the hospital they discovered she did not have a fever after checking it 3 more times. Fever is one of the first symptoms of Ebola, and well, pretty much every virus. They are checking it twice a day. I wouldn't be worried about thermometer malfunctions. You can also double check it.

Human error will always exist. But when people understand that they cannot catch Ebola unless they are in close contact with the fluids of a very ill Ebola patient, the fear will slowly subside. I don't know anyone who is still afraid of AIDS patients. I'm sure there are a handful out there, but most understand how it is caught and how it isn't caught.

The stigmatism against the business should be handled by education. The media and everyone need to do a better job of explaining why these places are not a danger to the public. And stop with the mixed messaging. Once the general public understands this, they will no longer stigmatize these businesses. Well, a handful probably still will , but most people just want information, education and understanding.

[NJCher]

124. of all the posts I've read on this thread

Yours makes the most sense, or at least from the point of view from which you advocate.

If the consequences weren't so devastating to so many people, you'd convince me. Since they are, however, I do not see that the damage caused by asking someone to stay in their own home for a period of time is commensurate with the damage done by someone who slips up.


Cher

[seabeyond]

128. devastating to so many people? see, fabrication. 7 ebola in u.s. 7. devastating?

ONE died. 5, cleared and alive of the virus. and one in the throes of the disease.

so.

7 people infected, out of all the u.s.

one died.

5 for sure survived.

1 up in the air.

and that is devastating to so many people?

language matters. yours would be propaganda.

[kestrel91316]

157. You need to read up on the history of HIV and the AIDS panic

in the US before continuing with your advocating irrational fear-based handling of people with no symptoms of Ebola.

Ryan White's life was destroyed, not by HIV, but by ignorant people treating him like a diseased leper when there was ZERO risk to them of contracting the disease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_White

Forty years of epidemiologic data don't lie. There is not one single reported case of a "mysterious" infection with Ebola. All recorded cases have had glaringly obvious exposure to bodily fluids of seriously ill Ebola patients.

If it could be spread casually, we WOULD know by now. Give the epidemiologists a tiny bit of the huge credit they are due. Seriously.

People have lost their fucking minds over this.

[uppityperson]

163. For your questions

So what if just one person messes up with self-monitoring?

What if just one thermometer malfunctions?

There are other symptoms involved with self monitoring, not just temperature. You mean like the thermometer that said Kaci had a fever? Or do you mean like Dr Spencer calling for help before his temp hit reportable level? No, you must mean what if the thermometer wasn't accurate, read .5 degree low and the person missed the fact they were vomiting or having diarrhea.

If that happens, when they become contagious they will be too sick to get out and about.

What if just one mistake is made by a person who is self-monitoring and this person goes on a subway and infects dozens of people? Nobody has the names and addresses of people on a subway, so how are they going to be tracked down?

MrDuncan's family was forced to stay in that contaminated apartment for days with his infectious vomit, diarrhea, sweaty bedding, and none of them got ebola. His neighbor that washed down his vomit didn't get it. While I will not say it is never possible to catch ebola from riding on a subway, the chances are so tiny, you less chance getting it from riding on a subway with than getting hit by lightening.

The bottom line to my question is how do you account for human error? If you can just please explain why I should not be concerned about human error, I will jump over to your side.

People make mistakes. I have made mistakes. I am sure you have made mistakes. Fact is ebola will come into the country, will continue to spread in W. Africa. But it spread by close contact with bodily excretions to a mucous membrane or open wound into the skin (like the kind you get from repeatedly putting medical tape around your neck, then removing it like Vinson and Pham say they did). Casual contact does not do it, remembering of course that there will at some time be a case where it is unknown how it was transmitted and putting enough monkeys to enough typewriters you will come up with Shakespeare play.

In other words, avoiding walking in puddles of vomit or diarrhea will help you avoid ebola, as will not taking care of a contagious person without protective gear or even gloves, and not patting and kissing those who died of ebola (all common ways it is spreading in W Africa).

One other question, not related to self-monitoring:

--who picks up the $25 grand that cost the bowling alley owner to get his facility sanitized?

--same for the meatball shop. Who pays for that?

I have no clue, probably Health Department paid for by taxpayer dollars.

Regardless of whether the businesses needed to be sanitized or not, the fact is that they will take a severe hit in business unless they take that step. Perception is the problem and facts do not matter. How is that problem solved?

Educate educate educate. A huge part of which is getting the damn media to stop their fast vs accurate reporting. Or educating people that that is happening.

Yes, public perception is a huge issue here but locking people up is as ridiculous as that other window dressing which people are finally realizing is useless. Taking off your shoes while getting screened before flying.

On a final note, I apologize if I seem insulting, do not mean to be. I am trying to tone down my dark humor, and if my comparisons to other events seem frivilous, apologies. This disease is frightening and awful. But conditions here, health care, cultural, infrastructure, are so different than in the 3 overwhelmed W African countries of Siera Leone, Liberia and Guinea. They did not know what ebola was when it showed up. We do. Their health care systems and infrastructure are ravaged by years of wars and severe economic depression.

I am not saying that we are better, just we have better systems in place to recognize and deal with those who have ebola. More cases will show up here. Early recognition and treatment are the key.

Educate, educate, educate.

[seabeyond]

165. so. you took the time to address each question and educate the poster. we can count on this

poster helping to further educate those that come in and pose these ridiculous questions. right? that is the way it works, right? once educated, we need not be stupid, no mo.

[uppityperson]

170. I don't like to call questions ridiculous or stupid. I remember getting raked over the coals when I

asked who is this Keith Olberman everyone was talking about. How COULD I ask such a STUPID question, how COULD I call myself a liberal without knowing who he was, how COULD I blah blah blah blah blah.

I have 8 channels on my tv, costs me $1/month. I rarely watch tv. I asked because I wanted to know what people were talking about.

Add in the difficulties of internet communication and assumptions we each take for granted without knowing we have them and it can take a lot of time to figure out what someone is asking. Clarification over and over and over and time can be needed. I am guilty of writing shorthand, knowing what I mean but not explaining it well to someone who does not have the same history, background, culture growing p as I (love talking to sibs because we can understand a lot without having to explain it).

What does tire me is the same person, not meaning this particular person, who asks the same question over and over and over without being able to clarify what they are asking. Or people who get stuck on first inaccurate reports rather than being able to recognize updated information.

And once educated, I am still stupid in ways also. I find myself jumping when media says omg, must talk myself down. Being able to learn is a good thing. Putting that learning into practice is a good thing. Passing that on is a good thing.

[KMOD]

95. *bump* because this story is, imo pretty damn important.

[WinkyDink]

96. TFB about her "ordeal." An infected nurse flew; a nationally-known doctor broke quarantine; ANOTHER

doctor, an infected one, went BOWLING, FCS.

I'D ASK WHY WE SHOULD TRUST MEDICAL PERSONNEL.

[seabeyond]

101. and still, no one picked up the disease. WHY? because of the facts of the disease that are repeated

over and over and over

[brooklynite]

102. What medical personnel?

This isolation program was developed by Govs Christie and Cuomo and implemented by immigration officials.

[SheilaT]

103. Please review just how this specific virus spreads

and then stop being so obtuse.

Did the doctor vomit or poop on others in the bowling alley or on the bus? No? Then he couldn't have infected anyone. Similar question for the nurse.

And if Ebola was spread so easily, you might want to wonder why no one who was with Duncan in the ER either of the two times he was there, has come down with it. Or why the people he was living with haven't all gotten sick.

And then maybe you can figure out why your question is a stupid one.

[treestar]

104. I don't get why she doesn't get that the negative test before 21 days

does not mean she won't get it. Being a nurse who was there and all, you'd think she'd understand all that and want to stay in quarantine.

Someone who had the nerve to go to Sierra Leone and dealt with all that can't deal with being in quarantine in the US. Inconsistent.

Not that this makes the quarantine necessary, but there has been all kinds of criticism for the other people being out there to go on planes and cruises and go bowling, so now they do something about keeping people exposed in quarantine and now that is wrong, too.

[seabeyond]

108. are tehy quarantining all the staff dealing with stevens in NY? why not? same thing.

one shft, quarantine for 21 days, bring in the next shift. quarantine for 21 days bring in the next shift.

if they are quarantining those coming into the country for caring for ebola patience, why the hell are we not doing the same with those caring for ebola patience in the u.s.?

cause it would be fuckin ludicrous. we wouldnt run out of medical staff. you cant lock the medical staff up until virus is gone, or patient dead and then a 21 day quarantine.

cause we would have NO medical staff take on the job.

and that is only one of the issues

but, there is no difference. we just do it with medical staff coming into the country.

why?

[treestar]

117. I could see a difference between here and Africa

The conditions in Africa did cause the virus to spread to HCW.

I just don't get why she finds the quarantine so much more awful than being in Africa working with the ebola patients. Whether the quarantine is necessary is another question, but finding it so is not the height of evil some people seem to be making it out to be. After all the outrage at letting those people fly, bowl, etc, or letting Mr. Duncan go off, the government is trying to do something, and now that's wrong, too.

[seabeyond]

121. logically, tel me the difference. ebola is ebola. u.s. or outside. two nurses got it here.

it is those caring for those at the worst, dying.

all the people bowling, flying, and duncan, prove, this is a disease gotten when the disease is at worse. and those people are not flying, bowling or being a duncan.

facts..... duncan people did not come down with it. flying, did not come down with it.

because people choose to be fearful, regardless of fact, should not be what drives our policy.

facts.... should matter. facts should be what is pounded in peoples heads, instead of feeding their fears.

like.... the restaurant that gets no business cause two weeks ago, a woman that self quarantined, stayed in the car, while a frined walked into the restaurant, picked up the food, and left the restaurant.

instead of feeding that fuckin stupid fear..... provide and continue to provide FACTS.

that would be the difference with hiv, .... and the panic'd fear of that time that chased a kid out of a neighborhood.

[TwilightGardener]

127. You'd think that a CDC Fellow wouldn't be so godawful bewildered by the process,

crying and sobbing and wailing about paper gowns and granola bars, when supposedly she just got back from shoving crushed up Tylenol down a half-conscious patient's throat (?) in Sierra Leone. Her bio from the CDC noted that she does media work for them, BTW, before it was changed. But the CDC/State Dept. retrieved a Dallas lab worker from her cruise, ruined the fucking cruise for EVERYBODY. CDC is very consistent in blaming Dallas health care workers (low wage nobodies) for going anywhere, while praising and protecting the interests and FREEDOM to move around of volunteer doctors and its own employees.

[seabeyond]

131. wow. .... just wow.

[TwilightGardener]

134. Wow.

[kestrel91316]

160. Another CDC-hating science-denier, another day.

Un-freaking-believable.

You people would have burned poor Ryan White at the stake.

[TwilightGardener]

173. CDC's lack of credibility and trustworthiness has nothing to do with

how I'd treat anybody. I cared for AIDS patients, willingly, as a nurse. The simple fact is, the average American health care worker or citizen gets blame and suspicion and travel-restricted and pulled off of cruise ships that they probably saved a lifetime for, but the self-appointed elites associated with the CDC and Doctors without Borders can do whatever they want and go wherever they want, and use the threat of their not volunteering in Africa to make us compliant with not quarantining them. Two different standards. I'll wait for Tom Frieden to announce that Spencer "breached protocol" and "shouldn't have traveled" anywhere. Nah, that'll never happen, those volunteer docs are above reproach and totally trustworthy, they're not regular joes and janes working in regular American hospitals.

[kestrel91316]

182. Oh I get it. You're in a snit because someone with

possible massive exposure to Ebola in a poorly run red state hospital that never trained any employees and ignored CDC guidelines, who then got a FEVER on a cruise ship, and was rightly considered a potential risk, agreed to self-isolate.

So THAT justifies the knee-jerk paranoia by non-medical persons resulting in the inhumane treatment of an asymptomatic person who is an expert in Ebola and has had plenty of training and used adequate PPE.

Gotcha.

[TwilightGardener]

183. You're massively inconsistent, to the point of embarrassing:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014921361#post9



http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5671796


Any way the wind blowwwss...

[seabeyond]

184. or. facts matter.

[kestrel91316]

185. I'm allowed to reassess how I feel about things and BASED ON A FURTHER

REVIEW OF EPIDEMIOLOGIC DATA I have done so.

I'm not a Repuke who sees things only in black and white and is frozen in time. I know this fact disturbs you, and it speaks volumes about you.

[TwilightGardener]

187. LOL, the "epidemiologic data" has somehow changed significantly in a week.

The only thing that lurches inconsistently from week to week is CDC actions and DU reactions. Currently on DU, it's popular to be against isolation or quarantine. Last week, everyone wanted those in contact with ebola patients to stay home. This place is fucking hilarious.

[seabeyond]

188. actually, the last couple weeks have given us clear information that allows us to better assess

the situation. hence being fluid both on information, knowledge, and the experience of the situation over a course of time is needed, necessarily, important.

[TwilightGardener]

179. By the way, your tune sure changed in a week...here's what you said about the lab

worker last week, who did not have ebola, did not have contact with Duncan, and was not told to stay home and "self-isolate", in your words:

"Where did I say to fire healthcare workers for becoming infected??

They should be fired if they are exposed and then do something that potentially endangers hundreds, if not thousands.

"No harm, no foul" simply encourages this shit to continue."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=5717918


RIDICULOUS.

[kestrel91316]

186. I'm allowed to reassess how I feel about things and BASED ON A FURTHER

REVIEW OF EPIDEMIOLOGIC DATA I have done so.

I'm not a Repuke who sees things only in black and white and is frozen in time. I know this fact disturbs you, and it speaks volumes about you.

[TwilightGardener]

189. Then I guess I'm allowed to feel that it's no great hardship to lay low for a

couple weeks after returning from contact with LOTS AND LOTS of squirting dying ebola patients so as to be absolutely sure one does not fall ill in a public venue in America with the incubating virus. Had health care workers been doing this voluntarily, no one would have to track down their contacts when they fall ill, and have businesses forced to close and lose money. An abundance of caution, you know.

[alcibiades_mystery]

109. The stupidity wrought by the panic-mongers

Shaking my damn head.

[morningfog]

151. They are no different than climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers, etc.

Anti-science, paranoid and willfully ignorant.

[Marrah_G]

174. I am shaking my head too

I finally put them all on ignore for a while. It's like fighting with a climate change denier.