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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm in tears after a conversation with a woman on the bus.
I was sitting a little ways away from her when a soldier got on board and sat next to her. She started talking to him, and I was kinda listening in on their conversation. He was back after a 3 year tour of duty, and wasn't sure when he'd ship out next. She has a son in Afghanistan, and I don't think the soldier noticed, but just talking to him was hard for her. He got off, and a little bit later I could see she was beginning to cry.
It took me a couple minutes, but I got up the courage to go talk to her. I told her I wasn't sure it would make her feel any better, but there are some of us out there who are dedicating our lives to stopping the wars, to making it so that no one has to go through what she has. She half-smiled at this, and we began talking. She asked me what I was studying, what I was doing with my life, and then she told me about her son.
She said that he said only three words about the war: "It was nothing". And that's all he would ever tell her. She said that he got a bronze medal, or something like that (she wasn't completely sure). Apparently he asked her if she knew why he received it, and when she said no, he told her he got it for killing someone. And she almost broke down into tears again, saying "I didn't raise my son to kill people". She didn't blame him, but...how can you not be broken by that? Your son has killed someone. But, she said, he brought back all 35 of his men without injury, and the pride shone through the sorrow. She has friends whose sons weren't so lucky, and she's proud that he kept that from happening to other people's sons.
The whole time, her eyes spoke so much more than her words. She said she knows that he fought and killed someone for nothing, that the war is for nothing, that her son could have died for profit and bigotry. She said that her votes counted for nothing, that the people she helps elect just turn and look the other way (Democrats, I might add. This woman understands what's going on). She knows that they won't do a damn thing to help her. She knows.
And the look in her eyes tore me apart.
Fuck war.
Fuck the people who make war.
And fuck the people that support them.
H2O Man
(73,622 posts)Recommended.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)they are too busy counting their profit.
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)Nothing is sacred to them except their power.
lastlib
(23,303 posts)woolldog
(8,791 posts)Martin Eden
(12,875 posts)Initech
(100,104 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)next stop is VietNam....(Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria)"
Will it ever stop????????
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)I just had this song going through my head the other day. The line that always smacked me hard in the face was "be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box".
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)I'm sure I wasn't alive to remember it.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)I will post a video link when I get on my phone.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)liberalhistorian
(20,819 posts)time of Woodstock, but I've always been what you could call an unrepentant "hippie" from the time I could remember and I used to drive my parents crazy playing their Woodstock album ad infinitum, particularly this song and the Joan Baez songs Joe Hill and the anti-draft one Drug Store Truck Drivin' Man (about St. Ronnie of Raygun). I attended Kent State and was a member of the May 4 Task Force, the student group that plans the commemorations each year and that also plans and implements education forums throughout the year; I got to know and be friends with several of the wounded students and the families of the murdered students.
So it is with utter disgust, dismay and disbelief that I note the strong trend not just toward militarization, and permanent militarization at that, but an entrenched attitude of military worship that considers traitorous any type of opposition to war at all. Witness the reaction to the songs Springsteen played the other day. That kind of reaction would not have happened even fifteen or so years ago. But ever since 9/11 and the 24/7/365 terra terra terra scaremongering and warmongering, things have completely changed, even among those who used to be anti-war.
The anti-war songs that helped bring the stark, bloody reality of war into focus (its "futility, stupidity, brutality" as Eisenhower himself called it), as well as bring to light the greedy profit motives of those who orchestrate it (Dylan's Masters of War is a bone-chilling evocation of this) and, thus, galvanized and fueled rightful opposition, are not only passe today, but likely would be considered traitorous by far too many.
And I say this having today watched (via Facebook) a beloved young cousin who is my own son's age(and who grew up with him) graduate from boot camp, and knowing he'll likely be thrown into the mire of Iraq or Afghanistan very soon and have cried many tears over it. And for all of the others who will be doing the same.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)and relish the fact that my parents friends were hippies, bikers, and freaks.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)911 was their Reichstag fire. It's far worse than most recognize.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)Country Joe and the Fish.
Circa 1968
Doc_Technical
(3,527 posts)by Country Joe and the Fish
if my addled brain is still functioning.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)calimary
(81,507 posts)How long will we have to keep protesting this shit?
[IMG][/IMG]
PatrickforO
(14,592 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)Thought we were done with that shit decades ago. Silly me.
Hekate
(90,829 posts)Brigid
(17,621 posts)Response to Brigid (Reply #4)
Name removed Message auto-removed
liberalhistorian
(20,819 posts)seem endless, doesn't it?
phil89
(1,043 posts)it's an absolutely immoral, disgusting thing. People need to be talked out of joining the military, at least while we're in these pointless, bizarre wars.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)I think that he's a strongly moral person. I don't know why he joined, but it sounded like he hated it, hated the war, hated what he had to do. She said that he hated that he was given the medal.
onethatcares
(16,188 posts)I really mean that.
My thoughts on war are on par with yours.
Peace and keep working toward it.
GeoWilliam750
(2,522 posts)We make them work onerous hours for a pittance, deny them healthcare, ridicule them for being poor, punish them for being ungrateful, and then we feed their children to the war machines, and expect them to be proud of it.
We have forgotten what "society" and "humanity" are.
tavernier
(12,406 posts)to real people and the hell they are going through. We tend to forget that the word "Troop" stands for One Soldier, not a battalion; one human being whose life is forever changed.
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)One we would not have without war.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Believe me, I get it. The technology is really cool. It was my dream to work on, design, and build those military aircraft. They are phenomenal marvels of engineering. My all-time favorite engineering project was the masterpiece called the SR-71. But after what I've read and what I've seen?
It's not worth it.
The millions dead, the millions dying, the billions who go hungry so that we can go kill more people?
It's not worth it.
Ever.
If we want technology, we can invest in it without investing in war.
caraher
(6,279 posts)I started an aerospace engineering major, back when St. Ronnie Ray-gun was dreaming up "Star Wars" and the Cold War was going strong. I was hoping to work on space technology but still loved the planes. But when I looked at the prospects for the kind of work I wanted to do versus what I was likely to do I changed course, and finished a double major in physics and philosophy.
One turning point came when the Air Force brought an F-15 airframe to campus (it was basically a full-size recruiting prop) and many students protested its presence. Their literature was rife with factual errors (e.g. these planes were used to bomb Vietnam) that were irrelevant to their main point, a protest against militarism. My classmates really just did not get it at all - their dismissal began and ended with the protesters' inability to tell an F-15 from an F-4. Did I want to work in an environment dominated by people that willfully blind to what really mattered?
Oh, and of the '70s era fighters my soft spot is for the F-14. And that is in spite of, rather than because of, Top Gun, an embarrassing flick whose only redeeming feature is great footage of carrier operations and Tomcats...
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Since I used to live under the flight path of an airport, whenever the airshow rolled into town my family would always go watch. The National Guard F-15 Demo Team always was my favorite part. When those things lit the afterburners...hehehe. My neighbor has a great story about when he was on his roof watching the show (you could see it from where we live) and one of the pilots came in hot and low, and lit them less than 1000ft directly above him. He almost got knocked off the roof
I know what you mean about not being able to work in that sort of environment. As I've been introduced to more and more of the engineers in that field (through school), I've realized that it's a surprisingly unfriendly place for liberals. NASA, JPL, and some of the other places are better, but too many of the big aerospace companies are dependent on the big fat military contracts. I also realized that I can't work on a tool of war--I can't support that industry of death.
Since a few other things happened (posted in a since deleted thread, if you want to read it, PM me), I've decided to pursue a degree in Political Science and see if I can make some sort of a difference. A double major in philosophy and physics is rather odd--what made you decide to do that? Though I suppose having a strong background in the mechanics of the world might produce some interesting philosophical ideas. I've heard stranger.
caraher
(6,279 posts)My standard joke reason is that the course schedule booklet was alphabetical and since philosophy was right before physics I didn't have to flip through that many pages
One downside of engineering school was just about every class had a weekly problem set, 2 midterms and a final - at some point I realized I rarely read anything besides textbooks. That had to change. Philosophy was an area where there was still a lot of rigor but where you could explore fascinating questions (I took a lot of epistemology and philosophy of science courses - my school had one of the leading philosophers of physics and I took a lot of his classes, so there's less disconnect than you might think!).
At the same time, I did want to know more physics than you need to be an engineer. Back then I thought I wanted to do high energy physics but didn't like the "big science" environment necessary for that (huge collaborations, being just one small piece of the puzzle). By the time I got around to grad school I focused on "tabletop" physics and focused on atomic and molecular physics with an emphasis on probes of quantum theory.
Now I teach physics at a liberal arts college, but my background lets me do more than just that. I've been involved with our ethics institute, gave a talk in the philosophy department on quantum mechanics, helped found an environmental studies honors program, and am currently chair of a curriculum committee working on instituting a multicultural education requirement.
I think the combination of physics and philosophy makes sense on the level of both fields pushing for improved understanding of very fundamental things. Political science, to me, is a hard area, because people are much more a moving target than electrons (which have consistent properties from day to day). I do find I'm drawing more and more on metaphors from physics as I think about politics. One example: I read a piece with a title something like "There is no such thing as public opinion," which made the point that the act of asking a poll question itself generates something that didn't necessarily even exist in the mind of the person polled before the query. This immediately called to mind the interplay in quantum theory between the state of a system and measurement. You don't need quantum mechanics to understand "push polls" but it does offer some fascinating possibilities when you really push the metaphor!
moonbeam23
(313 posts)Oh, yeah, yesterday my friends were marching out to war
Oh, yeah, listen, now, we ain't a-marching anymore
No, we ain't gonna fight
Only God has the right
To decide who's to live and die
Tommy James "Sweet Cherry Wine"
Funny how in the old days anti-war songs were played on the radio, but not now...thanks to our fucking corporate rulers
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)Everybody that used to know better bought into the bullshit at the beginning of the 80's.
We've never been the same since.
If people still had their shit together, anti-war songs would still be popular enough to be radio hits.
nxylas
(6,440 posts)So said Harry Patch, the longest-surviving British veteran of World War I (died 2009, aged 111).
liberalhistorian
(20,819 posts)organized murder.
democrank
(11,112 posts)~PEACE~
CaptainTruth
(6,602 posts)Written in 1970, & nothing has changed.
Generals gathered in their masses,
just like witches at black masses.
Evil minds that plot destruction,
sorcerers of death's construction.
In the fields the bodies burning,
as the war machine keeps turning.
Death and hatred to mankind,
poisoning their brainwashed minds...Oh lord yeah!
Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor
Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait `till their judgement day comes, yeah!
Now in darkness, world stops turning,
as you hear the bodies burning.
No more war pigs of the power,
hand of god has struck the hour.
Day of judgement, god is calling,
on their knees the war pigs crawling.
Begging mercy for their sins,
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings...Oh lord, yeah!
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)I'm ambivalent toward Black Sabbath in general, but that song speaks truth.
Thanks for posting it.
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)I don't think they've done anything comparable since.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)They had a raw energy and a purpose that I think they lost as they went farther.
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)Ozzy got it right...Aluminum, rubber and perchlorate as rocket fuel.
Rocket engines burning fuel so fast
Up into the night sky they blast
Through the universe the engines whine
Could it be the end of man and time?
Back on earth the flame of life burns low
Everywhere is misery and woe
Pollution kills the air, the land and sea
Man prepares to meet his destiny, yeah
Rocket engines burning fuel so fast
Up into the black sky so vast
Burning metal through the atmosphere
Earth remains in worry, hate and fear
With the hateful battles raging on
Rockets flying to the glowing sun
Through the empires of eternal void
Freedom from the final suicide
Freedom fighters sent out to the sun
Escape from brainwashed minds and pollution.
Leave the earth to all its sin and hate
Find another world where freedom waits.
Past the stars in fields of ancient void
Through the shields of darkness where they find
Love upon a land a world unknown
Where the sons of freedom make their home
Leave the earth to Satan and his slaves
Leave them to their future in their grave
Make a home where love is there to stay
Peace and happiness in every day
Initech
(100,104 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)malaise
(269,186 posts)Thank you.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,145 posts)Reading an awful lot today about jihad,Boko Haram, "I am not Malala" and anti-west education.
What sort of effort should be put into preventing the next generation of radicalized young people? What is the peace movement prepared to do to prevent a future war?
http://m.aljazeera.com/story/20141114161534122730
freshwest
(53,661 posts)F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)I think that working to promote small business and empowering women and girls worldwide is the best thing we can do to help stop radical groups. If we put in a multi-billion dollar investment in micro-loans to women in third world countries, I think we'd see a huge improvement. When there is a stable economy and poverty is lessened, then people tend to be more stable politically. Foreign aid would also help a lot in creating a positive image of the US abroad. Of course, it's not easy to do these things, and get the money to the right people. But it's a start, and it's certainly better than what we're doing with our money now.
That, and if we stopped bombing the crap out of them, they might not hate us so much. But that's a ridiculous idea.
PatrickforO
(14,592 posts)For example, instead of getting into Viet Nam and fighting the nationalists, we could have helped Viet Nam enter the brotherhood of nations, helped build schools and infrastructure. The result? No war and a nation growing economically in peace.
When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, we armed and trained the Taliban. When the Soviets were forced out, the Taliban leaders asked the US for help building schools and infrastructure. We blew them off. So now we're at war with the Taliban over there.
When George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and the rest of the neocons invaded Iraq without cause, they 'de Baathed' them, thus destroying the country's infrastructure. ISIS was born in those Baath prison camps. Now we're fighting ISIS.
In Somalia, corporations trawled out their fishing waters and European corporations now dump toxic waste off their coast because it's cheaper to do that than dispose of it properly. But we beat our chests and blame the Somalis for becoming pirates.
So who wins with policies like this? Companies like Academi (formerly known as Blackwater), Halliburton, and arms manufacturers. These people are ensconced in the highest circles of American power, and worship green, not red, white and blue. The war industry also has created many jobs in local regions, whose politicians, chambers of commerce and other civic leaders fight tooth and nail to keep that funding coming.
So that's the paradox. The very military industrial complex Ike warned us about is slowly disintegrating this nation. I saw the trailer for Katherine Heigl's new show State of Affairs. The dialog snippet chosen?
"How many of their First Amendment rights are you going to take away?"
"How many lives do you want to save?"
So now, we as a culture routinely step over the Bill of Rights so we can be secure and 'safe.' Big business roars. Our children and grandchildren die.
For what? So a few very rich people can get richer.
But, I know you know all this. Yes, we have to have a military. Yes, it must be strong. Yes, we might be attacked. But no, that does not give us license to take away the Bill of Rights, and it does not excuse us from promoting social, economic and environmental justice.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)I've got some land in Florida and the Outer Banks I'd love to sell you that I'm sure won't be under water soon.
The reason we have endless war has little to do with radicalism and everything to do with corporate profit.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,145 posts)We should never have opened the gates of Hell. It sure appears that the War Profiteers were the only "advisers" given an ear and proper protection from lawsuits and being held accountable. There must be no profit in war, EVER!
They, as well as those in leadership roles like G W Bush, Paul Bremer, Donald Rumsfeld & profiteers Dick Cheney and Erik Prince, sought revenge and treasure. They stoked the fires of radicalism and wanted our volunteer military to pay the price in blood and personal sacrifice with little more than a "Thank you for your service" as their reward.
Facing the present situation means coping with growing numbers of jihadists slaughtering anyone they target and determined to bring jihad into the western world, whose values they abhor.
I think we must enlist all moderate Muslim leaders and help them create a very visible counter group to ISIS. They should come from all corners of the earth to reclaim the civilized aspects of the Koran and shame violent jihad so that everyone can see. Add to that a rebuilding process that our military and materials can help to start up. Do not outsource. Building must be done by citizens of their own lands. If it takes decades, all the better.
Get Bibi in on this too. Israel needs to help rebuild destroyed Palestinian neighborhoods.
And make it all energized by solar and wind!
dflprincess
(28,082 posts)That's exactly how my dad described getting one of his bronze stars.
I have a picture of him when he received it. An officer was shaking his hand & on the back of the picture Pop wrote "Getting congratulated for killing people."
It makes me cry.
crim son
(27,464 posts)When it seems like we can do nothing, let's remember that we can do what you did and share our compassion and hope with those who are struggling for the lack of both. (((((hugs))))) You rock.
True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)World War 2 was necessary to stop the madness sown by the unnecessary World War 1.
Fighting ISIS is necessary to stop the madness sown by the unnecessary (and treasonous) Iraq War.
No one should kill, no one should die. Now just convince every country on Earth to hold to that doctrine simultaneously and in equal measure, and war will never happen again.
Otherwise, war will occur, and choosing not to fight it will sometimes mean more people die than if you did. The world would probably be a better place today if more Russians had fought the Bolsheviks, to avoid the nightmare empire that eventually was born; if more Germans had fought the Nazis, to avoid the Apocalypse they brought about and prevent the larger sacrifices that were ultimately necessary to stop them.
There is pacifism that serves mankind, and pacifism that merely passes the buck for sacrifice to others. Knowing the difference - and more importantly, knowing there is a difference, and giving a shit about it - is what determines who loves humanity and who merely loves their own reflection.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)An all-embracing philosophy, grounded in compassion and discernment--condensed into four succinct paragraphs.
"There is pacifism that serves mankind, and pacifism that merely passes the buck for sacrifice to others. Knowing the difference - and more importantly, knowing there is a difference, and giving a shit about it - is what determines who loves humanity and who merely loves their own reflection."
Hekate
(90,829 posts)I hope that he, his mother, and all of you posting here can realize just how huge of an accomplishment that really is. It's enormous.
All during the BushCheney era I was an active member of the Vets for Peace locally. I'm not a vet myself, but they invited me in. All of those men and women bore physical and psychic wounds of one kind or another. For the ones my age, there was the added burden of being despised for coming back alive from Vietnam. Let's at least not repeat that particular mistake.
As for this woman's son, I hope he too can find his way to personal peace, maybe even to the VFP.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)She said it once, and then looked at me, and said in a hushed tone, "He brought back 35 men. Without any injuries". She understands. I think I'm beginning to.
I will remember Vets for Peace, and suggest it to her should I ever see her again.
Thank you for your post.
albino65
(484 posts)PatrickforO
(14,592 posts)War must be banned.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)For the Democratic Party to recover and bloom, this HAS to change.
GreatGazoo
(3,937 posts)because war IS terror.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)And God damn the people who do this to us.
undeterred
(34,658 posts)even if they volunteer for it.