Cleveland police officer shoots 12-year old boy carrying BB gun

[YoungDemCA]

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A rookie Cleveland police officer shot a 12-year-old boy outside a city recreation center late Saturday afternoon after the boy pulled a BB gun from his waistband, police said.

Police were responding to reports of a male with a gun outside Cudell Recreation Center at Detroit Avenue and West Boulevard about 3:30 p.m., Deputy Chief of Field Operations Ed Tomba said.

A rookie officer and a 10-15 year veteran pulled into the parking lot and saw a few people sitting underneath a pavilion next to the center. The rookie officer saw a black gun sitting on the table, and he saw the boy pick up the gun and put it in his waistband, Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association President Jeffrey Follmer said.

The officer got out of the car and told the boy to put his hands up. The boy reached into his waistband, pulled out the gun and the rookie officer fired two shots, Tomba said.

Tomba said the child did not threaten the officer verbally or physically.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shoot_6.html

[MohRokTah]

1. More out of control cops. eom

[GGJohn]

37. In this case, I don't think we can blame the cop for shooting the 12 year old boy.

Here's a picture of the airsoft gun recovered at the scene.



Can you tell if it's real or not?

[stone space]

62. I can tell that it should be banned.

Can you tell if it's real or not?

[GGJohn]

70. I won't argue with that.

[FreakinDJ]

83. Got a picture of the 12yr old Boy - Cop Apologist

Never Ever Ever is there any justification for shooting a 12yr old boy

Never

Do you get it

[GGJohn]

84. Typical, name calling while not debunking my post.

I'll ask you, can you tell at a quick glance if that gun is real or fake?

And your statement that there's never any justification for shooting a 12 year old boy is pure road apples, or meadow muffins.

Do you get it?

[FreakinDJ]

85. Not a lot to debunk about Cheerleading Cops killing Black Children

might be different if it happened to white children in your neighborhood

[GGJohn]

86. Hyperbole doesn't fit you well.

How about answering my question? Can you tell by that picture whether or not that gun is real or fake?
I've handled firearms my whole life, I can't tell the difference.

[FreakinDJ]

88. Really - A Child in a Playground with a Toy

And some how you wish to rationalize this cop's Obvious BIGOTRY towards black youth by relentlessly bringing up - A FUCKING TOY GUN

REALLY - some people around here think their own OBVIOUS BIGOTRY doesn't shine through their transparent gestures of arguments on this forum.

Bigotry - Hiding behind a keyboard or a Fucking sheet over their head is still BIGOTRY

[Cal Carpenter]

2. Heartbreaking

That poor kid. What the family must be going through, I hope he is okay.

[Rex]

3. Come on folks, the kid had a gun. What did you expect the cop to do?

[Taurusny22]

4. why are you sarcastic

Someone called 911 and reported a male with a gun. So the cop isn't the only one who thought it was real. Its tragic but the kid contributed to his own death.

[MrMickeysMom]

6. Why don't you use your common sense on that?

Enjoy your stay…

[840high]

78. Look at the picture

of the gun - posted above - can you tell if it's real or not? I can't.

[Logical]

11. LOL, eight posts? You won't be here long. Nt

[Taurusny22]

18. We'll see

I've been lurking here from the very beginning of DU.

[Logical]

19. A cop? And it took this long to comment?? Nt

[branford]

27. I would be hesitant to comment too.

It's not like police officers are well regarded or treated with much respect by many here on DU, regardless of their individual politics. I, for one, welcome their perspective, particularly since they have relevant expertise to many of our discussion.

If I had a dime every time someone regarded all officers as "pigs" and "killers," I would be quite wealthy.

[Logical]

36. Bullshit.....

Many people defend cops on the DU. Many cop shootings are valid. So don't try that BS here. People call cops pigs that are pigs. I would guess most police shootings are 100% legitimate.
So if this cop really has been here for years and now just decided to start posting I call BS on that.

[branford]

71. You're proving my point.

Your castigating those who may defend police officers, regardless of circumstances, and making your own stereotypical assumptions about their opinions (e.g., police shootings are 100% legitimate).

Although I have no idea of the identity of the officer in this thread, nor knowledge of you personally, he said nothing to warrant the sarcastic reactions of many here. In fact, many here could use a good dose of an alternative perspective consistent with our Democratic background.

Despite the bigoted stereotypes of some, police officers come from a variety of races, genders, experiences and backgrounds, and are individuals with their own politics, some quite liberal. Nevertheless, even the most cursory stroll through most Zimmerman or Ferguson threads easily demonstrates the poor, unjustified and reactionary treatment police officers and their families receive and DU. Heck, I'm an attorney and sometimes when I just cite the relevant and basic law and procedure relevant to a shooting or similar matter, I'm accused of fairly awful and absurd things, like "pig lover" or excusing child killers, simply because the law itself may favor the police, regardless of my personal opinion.

DU has increasingly become an us vs. the police environment, and quite liberal notions like presumption of innocence and due process have fallen victim to some odd ideological purity. It is undeniably true some police shootings are bad or even racially motivated. However, many more shootings are totally justified, if entirely tragic, as looks to be the case with boy in this thread. I judge each incident on its own merits, and welcome any amicable discussion, whether by police officers, activists, and most commonly by individuals I don't know on anonymous internet boards like DU.

[Logical]

74. I have defended police shootings here. But many police get away with murder. I would bet more.....

cops should be fired/charged than get fired or charged incorrectly.

Do you disagree?

[branford]

77. As I said, it depends on the individual circumstances.

Do you some officers get away with murder or manslaughter? Probably? Are the vast majority of shootings likely justified? Almost definitely. That is why each one must be judged on its own merits.

If there is sufficient admissible evidence that an officer (or anyone else) commits a crime, they should be charged and receive a fair trial. If some officers actually get away with murder, that does not make other police officers any more or less guilty in totally separate circumstances.

Moreover, referring to the "police" as some uniform nebulous, inhuman mass is ridiculous. There are many thousands of police officers in this country, working for innumerable jurisdictions, and comprise a diverse group of races, religions, genders, ages, backgrounds, etc. Individual officers also have diverse political viewpoints. I will no more stereotype "police officers," than I will "minority youth."

I generally would like to hear from our Democratic police compatriots, about police shootings and other related matters. Their first-hand perspective should be part of any discussion. That does not mean, however, you need to agree or support any individual police officer's opinion, but the increasingly shrill "all police are pigs" nonsense that has become a regular feature on many threads should be ignored and actively discouraged.

[Rex]

44. If I had a dime for every person that comes here and pretends to be a cop

I'd be a millionaire. If only cops didn't blindly defend EVERY SINGLE cop story where someone gets killed by a cop, then maybe some people around here would give them some respect. You have to earn it and so far not a single "DU cop/cop wannabe" has ever said, "yeah that guy is a bad cop" so maybe you can kinda fathom why so many people don't trust them.

[Taurusny22]

40. yes an active duty Nypd detective

I used to post once in a while years ago. I've stayed out of the Ferguson discussion because there are several DU'ers doing a good job of trying to keep some people from overeacting and urging patience. But some labeled the shooting an assassination from day one.

[Logical]

41. Wow, the NYPD, you proud of their police department? Have you tried to stop the corruption? nt

[Taurusny22]

61. I'm extremely proud of the work I've accomplished

And I've been very careful of the people I've chosen to work with. I wont say every cop is a saint but most are honest and hard working. The NYPD is one of the most diverse and intergrated orginizations you will find. The truth is we get an enormous amount of supervision. The guys I worked with never took a penny. I've always worked alongside cops of every race who would never let me or any white cop get away with racist behavior. As far as corruption IAB is constantly doing integrity tests. Most cops are paranoid about getting caught doing something bad because the Dept makes us feel we are always being watched.

[Logical]

66. Want a list? nt

[Logical]

75. "Most cops are paranoid about getting caught doing something bad"....

this almost makes me laugh. As much shit as is caught on video from the NYPD it seems like a silly statement.

Of course cops protect other cops and seldom get punished or fired. Paid vacation and then back to work.

Police should have much higher standards than normal jobs, but they seem to have less.

[uppityperson]

67. Who were you when you used to post years ago?

[marble falls]

30. MIRT: Lurker in aisle #18!

[840high]

79. Good to see you posting.

[FarPoint]

28. Cops job/ position places them in a higher standard above the average citizens.

They are suppose to be qualified to assess a scene, protect and serve using lethal force as a last resort. This rookie failed...fell far below the standard.

[Rex]

45. No you are right, the guy had to blow away that kid. It was either the kid

or the cop and we all know the value cops place on civilians.

[XemaSab]

46. Or all the other kids on the playground

n/t

[Rex]

51. Well if they got hit by indiscriminate fire, it is their own fault for being there.

Their parents were probably off buying drugs.

[avebury]

48. Like the poor guy who, while commiting no crime and was

of no threat to anybody was shot and killed by the cops after another shopper made a bogus call to the police? Considering the propensity for cops to shoot and kill people first and ask questions later on, anybody calling the cops had better know what they are talking about because their call may result in the death of another person. We live in a society where gun rights trump everything else and like it or not you will see people walking around with guns.

[Drahthaardogs]

38. That looks like a real 911 .45 ACP.

I wish they would not make BB guns look like real firearms. This stuff happens too often.

[Rex]

43. I don't get it, we had toy guns that looked real in the 80s.

Cops killing kids with toy guns was pretty much unheard of when I was a kid.

[Jenoch]

47. As far as you knew then, at least.

The WWW has made these stories available worldwide, as opposed to newspapers and/or newswires picking up the story and passing it along.

[Rex]

49. There were no school shootings or kids getting suspended for making bomb threats.

Times have changed.

[Jenoch]

52. Remember the school shooting in Littleton, Colorado?

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

In 1982?

Neither did I

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Deer_Creek_Shooting

[Rex]

54. Interesting, check this out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

The rate increases a lot just in the past few years. Some years 2 or 3, a few years 5 or 6, the past few years 30 and 26.

[Jenoch]

55. The people who provide the weapons to school shooters,

including family members, need to be charged with felonies.

[Rex]

56. I agree 100%, one thing that was the same back when I was in HS

you could get a gun cheap. I remember kids in school that sold hot guns. Too dam easy to get a firearm if you wanted one. I guess I was wrong though, looks like there have been gun and other violent deaths in schools since we've had schools. 1920 looks brutal.

Penalties needs to be harsh. The black market for guns must be massive.

[Jenoch]

57. The only guns at my school were shotguns

that were used to hunt ducks before and after school. I once brought a shotgun to school while I was in the 8th grade. I left it in my locker until speech class. I made a demonstration speech on how to clean a shotgun.

[Rex]

58. My HS was a big 5A school that had gangster wannabes.

No doubt they thought they were the real deal, but even then I noticed buying a firearm was cheap and easy. You could get anything if you knew the right kids; guns, cars, booze, drugs, etc.. I personally had no care for that kind of life style, too busy trying to get girls to go out with me.

[Jenoch]

59. My high school was small, rural, and almost all white.

Now, it's small, rural, with a large minority population. The grade school is 52% 'minority'.

[uppityperson]

5. "When an officer gives a command, we expect it to be followed" and if not, shoot them?

[Taurusny22]

9. If the command is drop the gun

Cops have been killed by every demographic. Every race both genders and all ages. I once took a gun off a 9 year old boy. His dad handed it to him when he saw me walking down the street. I arrested the dad because I saw him hand it to his son. So its horrible that this 12 year old is dead but the cop doesn't have to wait until the gun is pointed at him. Maybe there's more to the story. Was it possible for the cop to take cover? Or was he out in the open? And please don't worry about how long I'll be staying.

[uppityperson]

10. I know there is minimal info yet, just saw that line and it made me wince.

People do not always hear commands, or know they are aimed at them. Did you follow the shooting in Seattle a couple yrs ago of John Williams? The police did not ID himself, yelled at Mr Williams, when Mr Williams turned to see who was yelling, bam bam bam bam. Yes, Mr Williams was deaf in 1 ear, hard of hearing in the other. Yes, he was carrying a legal pocketknife. Yes, the cop ran up to close to him yelling "put the knife down" and testified Mr Williams turned with a concerned look on his face so he felt in danger and killed him.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/No-charges-in-woodcarver-shooting-by-Seattle-1016227.php

Police do get shot, but some over react.

Not enough info to tell yet, just noticing that line. And why would I worry about how long you'll be staying, whatever that means?

[Taurusny22]

12. Sorry typing on a kindle

I was referring to Mr mickeysmom comment.

[uppityperson]

13. Aha, I see it. I edited the previous reply to you, added more of why people sometimes don't know

they are being commanded.

Too little info here to tell yet.

[marble falls]

31. Nice anecdote. Got any facts or statistics that don't include secondhand cop-shop talk?

[flvegan]

7. This has DU outrage written all over it. For days.

Facts and events likely ignored, "12 years old" and "police" will rule the day and the emotion.

Regardless of the community, I hope the child comes out of this okay as well as the officer who will find himself questioning shooting a 12 year old.

[ManiacJoe]

8. Cannot blame the cops for this one.

The rookie officer saw a black gun sitting on the table, and he saw the boy pick up the gun and put it in his waistband, Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association President Jeffrey Follmer said.

The officer got out of the car and told the boy to put his hands up. The boy reached into his waistband, pulled out the gun and the rookie officer fired two shots, Tomba said.

12 years old (commonly 7th grade) is well into the age of knowing better. Pulling a gun on a cop will get you shot in response.

[FatherAndHusband]

24. A 12 years old should not be the one who knows better

Seriously, when has a 7th grade education been expanded to learning not to get shot by the police? Was there a class in that when I was not looking, or is covered in kindergarten these days?

I would expect the adult... Hell a trained member of an organization who's mandate is to protect and serve, I would expect *that* person to have the common sense in this situation, not the 12 year old.

[ManiacJoe]

25. The adult DID have, and use, Common Sense.

That is why the person drawing a gun against the cops rightly got shot, morally right and legally right. A 12 year old can kill with a gun just as easily as a 22 year old.

Even grade school students know not to point guns at people, especially cops. If your parents did not teach this to you, blame them for the mistake. The parents of this kid failed him and it caused him to learn the hard way not to point guns at cops.

[avebury]

50. That is not a black and white issue of knowing not to pick up a

gun in front of a cop. Some people have challenges including deafness, language, low IQ, epilepsy, and so on. Cops need to be trained in how to identify medical and physical problems so that their first reaction is not to kill on sight but step back long enough to actually evaluate the situation they are facing. If someone calls 911 seeking help and they make it clear up front that the subject in question has a specific problem then there is no excuse for ignorant reactions by the cops.

Society should have higher expectations of cops who are supposed to be trained professionals and not like we are living in the old days of the Wild Wild West.

[ManiacJoe]

64. What you say is good and true, but not relevant to the current case.

Calls were made to 911 about a person threatening others with a deadly weapon.
Cops arrived on scene, found a person matching that description.
The cops ordered the suspect to show his hands (to confirm they are empty and he is not a threat).
The suspect drew a gun from his belt-line and attempted to aim it at the cops.
The cops, correctly defending themselves, shot the suspect (a lethal threat gets a lethal defense).

The cops did not kill/shoot anyone "on sight".

Recognizing "deafness, language, low IQ, epilepsy, and so on" is all about handling the situation after any lethal threats have been mitigated.

[avebury]

65. Grown adults who are supposed to be trained with dealing with hazardous situations

elected to shoot a 12 year old child. One would think that they would deal with a child different the an adult. Everyone knows that children can be difficult to deal with at times and ordering the child one time to put the gun down and then shooting the child indicates that the cops skipped over any and all other options that they could have used to deal with the child. I would like to think that death by cop should not be the only way of dealing with a child.

[Jenoch]

68. A handgun in the hand of a 12 year old

is just as lethal as a handgun in the hand of a 22 year old or a 72 year ol person.

[noiretextatique]

72. except it was not a handgun eom

[Jenoch]

76. Go back and read the story and look at the photos.

[ManiacJoe]

69. Lucky for us, adults who deal with hazardous situations on a regular basis

do get training.

Fortunately, in this situation the trained adult followed his training and reacted properly to the lethal threat. Unfortunately for the child, he got his wish when he wished that others think that is fake gun was a real gun.

"Dealing with a child" is an important concept when the "child" part is important. When dealing with a "lethal child", the trained people know that the important part is the "lethal" part. A 12-, 22-, and 72-year-old can all easily kill you with a gun. After the "lethal" situation has be rendered safe, then the age-appropriate response can be given to the situation.

[branford]

26. You didn't know by seventh grade that

you shouldn't wave real looking guns around a playground, disobey police officers, particularly when possessing such a toy gun, and then reach for such gun when an officer instructed you to raise your hands?

Also note that the officers were at the playground because they received a report about someone waving a gun around. In a era of school shootings and kids killing kids, this is a high-priority and dangerous situation.

What exactly do believe that the officers did wrong in this particular situation, assuming the reported facts are indeed accurate, which should soon be easily confirmed? The officers had to act with the knowledge they had at the time, without the benefit of hindsight.

The shooting was a tragedy, but it appears the police did everything right. The only ways it appears it could have been avoided occurred well before the police were called, and much of the blame should probably be directed at the parents or guardians of the boy.

[840high]

80. Why did the 12 year old

have a gun that looked like the real stuff? Why was he pointing it at people?

[marble falls]

32. Pulled out the "gun": yanked it into combat position or taken by the barrel and being handed to....

the authority figure who surprised him?

[ManiacJoe]

63. yanked it into combat position.

The barrel is inside the pants and cannot be grabbed.

[rollin74]

14. orange marking had been removed from the airsoft gun

Cleveland police said in a statement that an orange marking designed to make the toys distinguishable from real firearms had been removed



http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/cops-shoot-boy-12-carrying-airsoft-toy-cleveland-n254251

[branford]

15. Oy vey!

Whoever removed the safety marking designed specifically to prevent just such a tragedy needs to be hit with a very large stick.

[linuxman]

17. My money is on the kid having done it.

What if that turns out to be the case?

[branford]

20. Where were his parents or guardians?

If you permit your 12 year old child to have a BB gun, you make damn sure he is using it safely, including the most obvious and passive act of leaving the safety marking on the gun, and instruct him on how to respond if a police officer or authority figure approaches him while he has the gun. In the era of Michael Brown and school shootings, anything less is child endangerment, regardless of race.

I obviously do not want the child or anyone else to literally be beaten with a stick. However, these stories truly challenge my peaceful nature.

[linuxman]

22. 12 y/os know better. At some point you can't blame parents for everything.

The things I did behind my parents' backs and got away with when I was that age could fill the encyclopedia Britannica. I'm not of the belief that a 12 year old person doesn't know better than to reach for his waistband and pull out a gun, BB or otherwise when a cop come up to him. I certainly didn't need to have it explained to me.

If I have kids, any toy guns they have are going to be neon green and say "Supersoaker" on them. If the parents bought this for him and turned him loose, it was surely poor judgement on their parts. Pulling it out of his pants in front of an already concerned cop was poor judgement on his.

[branford]

23. We fully agree.

I still believe that 12 is still young enough that some level of parental involvement and supervision is still necessary, particularly today when the item in question has the potential to cause harm and looks identical to a firearm. However, in fairness, in my youth in the 70's and 80's, every toy gun looked like a real gun, we even brought them to school, and no one I know was ever shot. Times have certainly changed.

Nevertheless, if the officer's story is true, the child sadly acted in an inexplicable and foolish manner.

I hope the child makes a full recovery, and believe he would be best served in the future by a hobby that did not involve anything that can even be remotely construed as a firearm.

[marble falls]

33. Read here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014950574

[Droning Predator]

16. "The rookie officer saw a black gun sitting on the table..."

Are we sure it was the GUN he was focused on?

[helpmetohelpyou]

21. To this day I don't know why they make those airsoft BB guns look so real

I walked down the sporting goods section just to look at the airsoft
BB guns they had on the shelve at Walmart

Those things could fool anyone.

The article said the child's condition is unknown
Lets just hope he's okay

[Duckhunter935]

29. several on DU have called on 911 callers

to "exaggerate" person with a gun calls. I hope this was not the case here.

[etherealtruth]

39. How should one respond to the potential of a 12 year old with a gun?

As tragic as this is (a 12 year old dead) you really do not think a call to the police was appropriate?

The man told police he was at the park near Cudell Recreation Center and could see "a guy with a pistol" on the swing set pulling the weapon from his pants and "scaring the s--t out of everyone."

"There's a guy with a pistol, and it's probably fake," he said quickly, "but he's pointing it everybody."

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/9-1-1_caller_says_gun_held_by.html

[Duckhunter935]

42. I am talking about the ones

that advocate even when seeing a holstered weapon calling the police saying he or she is pointing it at people. I am talking about the ones that see a rifle slung over the shoulder and calling the police and saying he or she is pointing and threatening people. That gets people killed, like John Crawford. I was not there and I do not know the circumstances but it does seem the orange tip was removed from a very real looking air-soft gun and a call without any exaggeration indeed may have been called for.

[meaculpa2011]

34. My wife had to wrestle a gun away from a 5th grader...

in 1975. The kid went to the toilet and when he returned to class she noticed the gun handle sticking out above his belt. She snuck up behind him, grabbed the gun and wrestled him to the floor.

It was a .25 revolver, unloaded.

The parents didn't understand why their son had been abused and they filed a complaint against her. After all, the gun wasn't loaded.

She's 4'11", 88 pounds and though she retired from teaching four years ago she still works in her school as math tutor and testing coordinator.

[Crunchy Frog]

35. This is partially a consequence of having a gun saturated society,

which seems to be something that the American people insist on having.

[loyalsister]

82. Exactly!

This is a sign a Ferguson protestor was holding in Aug. I am not certain about the age of the man, but it does remind me that around 30 yrs ago or a little more, no cop would assume that a kid would have anything but a toy or BB gun.

<a href=".html" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt=" photo seeninfurguson_zpsa2757dda.jpg"/></a>

[MattP]

53. when i was a kid I had a water gun that looked real and got the helicopter and and a chase after me

But lucky for me when youre white they ask questions first

[Brigid]

60. A long time ago,

I saw a newspaper account about a report to police that there was someone dressed in camouflage lurking around a wooded area (possibly a state park; I don't remember now) with a gun. Turned out to be an eight-year-old playing army with a toy gun. When confronted by the cops, the kid immediately dropped the "weapon" and raised his hands. I guess he must have seen that on TV or something. This was so long ago, I don't know if there were laws yet requiring that realistic-looking toy guns have those orange markings. Anyway, the kid's quick thinking instantly defused the situation, and the cops were then able to determine what was really going on.

This twelve-year-old apparently did not comply with the cops' commands, instead pulling out the toy gun from his waistband and pointing it at the cops.This "toy", for whatever reason, did not have those orange markings. It looks quite real. Tragically, the boy is dead. But this time, I really don't think the cops were at fault.

[noiretextatique]

73. some dispute over the facts

some claim the bb gun was on the table.

[840high]

81. With no orange markings.

[noiretextatique]

89. so? i will wait for more info

too many rumors right now, but if he did not aim it at the cop...

[ManiacJoe]

87. What kind of dispute over the facts?

All the articles are reporting the same sequence of events:
Cops see boy take the gun off the table, put it in his waistband.
Cops order the boy to show his hands.
Boy attempts to draw the gun from his waistband.