12-year-old boy shot by Cleveland police has died

[Ykcutnek]

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The 12-year-old boy wielding what turned out to be a BB gun when he was shot by police outside a Cleveland recreation center died early Sunday morning, a police union official confirmed.

The boy, whose name has not been officially released, was shot in the stomach at Cudell Recreation Center, at Detroit Avenue and West Boulevard, about 3:30 p.m. Saturday, police said.

He was taken to MetroHealth Medical Center in serious condition, EMS officials said. Throughout the night his condition deteriorated and he died early Sunday, Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association president Jeff Follmer said.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/12-year-old_boy_shot_by_clevel.html

[Cooley Hurd]

1. Will charges be filed against the monster who shot this child?

[GliderGuider]

2. That monster represents our owners. What do you think will happen? nt

[Ykcutnek]

3. He was placed on paid administrative leave and his own department is investigating.

Translation: No.

[GGJohn]

5. In this case, initial reports seem to back up the Officer's account.

Here's a picture of the gun recovered at the scene:



Can you tell if it's real of fake?

[helpmetohelpyou]

6. I could mistake that for a real gun

Even at a short distance unless I had a clear view of the muzzle first

[Ykcutnek]

8. Unfortunately, the NRA lobbies against laws that would require toy guns to look differently. nt

[GGJohn]

11. What?

Do you have a link that the NRA lobbies against the orange tips that are legally supposed to be on these airsoft guns?

[Ykcutnek]

18. Orange tips are not good enough. Some lawmakers want to go farther and the NRA lobbies against them.

The tragic shooting, now under investigation by the FBI, could have been avoided if the NRA did not block a 2011 legislative proposal in California that would have required pellet and BB guns to be brightly colored to avoid confusion with real firearms. The NRA used its lobbying wing, the Institute for Legislative Action, to fearmonger about the proposal, while NRA News repeatedly hosted an NRA lobbyist to attack the bill.

On June 17, 2011, the NRA-ILA sent an alert, telling its members to contact legislators and express opposition to S.B. 798 and two other gun-related bills. NRA-ILA claimed that the coloring requirements and civil penalty for selling non-complaint BB and pellet guns meant that the bill "will ban the sale of all air guns, BB guns and airsoft guns unless the manufacturer is willing to take on the extra expense of complying with California's (the only state) new law."

During 2011, NRA News frequently hosted the NRA's California lobbyist, Ed Worley, to attack the bill -- which he misleadingly termed an "imitation gun ban" -- and suggest that it would violate federal law. After the legislation stalled for a final time in September 2011, Worley gave the NRA credit, stating, "We stopped the imitation BB gun ban."

During a July 5, 2011, appearance on NRA News, Worley claimed that the legislation was defective because it would be preempted by a federal law that regulates the placement of orange plastic tips on imitation guns. He also bragged about the NRA's role in turning out NRA members to a hearing to oppose S.B. 798.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/31/nra-blocked-law-that-could-have-prevented-polic/196673

[helpmetohelpyou]

12. It makes no sense to make toy guns look real

Have you ever walked through the Walmart sporting goods dept?

The air soft BB guns look exactly like M16 assault rifles

[GGJohn]

9. These airsoft guns are supposed to have an orange tip on them to identify them as fake,

someone removed the tip, with tragic consequences.

[helpmetohelpyou]

15. They need to make the tip nonremovable at the very least

[sunnystarr]

61. He was shot before anyone could see the tip

So it didn't much matter if the orange tip was removed or not. The report said the boy was reaching for his waistband for what appeared to be gun and so they shot him.

[GGJohn]

67. After he was told to raise his hands.

[Comrade Grumpy]

82. That's still a very quick shoot-to-kill.

[GGJohn]

84. So what was the cop to do?

Wait to see if it was real or not? Wait for a shot to be taken before responding?

In this case, I'm not going to fault the cop if his story holds up.

[Warpy]

68. That doesn't work really well for kids like this one

The story I read last night (and I've just now gotten up) said the kid had it in the waistband at the small of his back, video thug style. A tip would have been hidden.

Toy guns need to look like toy guns, sorry kiddies. Gun manufacturers have got to stop making real guns that look like toys (see: pink guns supposed to appeal to anything female).

Men using the muzzle of a BB gun to pick through merchandise in Walmart shouldn't be shot because some nervous bigot made a 911 call. Kids shouldn't be shot as thugs for BB guns.

Cops need to be able to tell the difference at a glance because a glance is usually all they get.

[Orrex]

88. They should mold them entirely in safety orange

[GGJohn]

92. Absolutely, and design them so they can never be mistaken for the real thing.

But I don't expect any law like that out of our do nothing Congress, especially after the R's take over.

[Orrex]

94. My understanding...

is that the NRA has applied pressure against such measures because it would imply that their beloved guns are dangerous, when we all know that guns are perfectly safe and incapable of harm until some evil stupid human gets involved.

[Cooley Hurd]

14. Yes I can. That is (by using the hands in the photo for scale) much smaller than...

...the real thing, an M1911. The "trained" monster who murdered the child should've known that!

[GGJohn]

16. Bullshit.

I spent my entire career in the Army, handling weapons, and in a split second, at a distance, I couldn't tell the difference, so I highly doubt you could.

And there are several handguns, .45 cal., that are compact and look alot like that one.

[Cooley Hurd]

19. No bullshit. I've handled that type of weapon...

...and that's 2/3 scale at best, Skippy...

[GGJohn]

21. Yeah, right, pull the other one, it's got bells.

[Cooley Hurd]

22. Cute!

That's all ya got, Skippy?

[GGJohn]

23. That's all I need, bubba.

That airsoft gun, without the required orange tip, looks very authentic, especially in a tense situation where the cop had to make a split second decision when the kid pulled the gun from his waistband and failed to comply with the officers orders to drop it.

The one to blame here is whoever illegally removed the orange tip, thereby putting that child's life in danger.

[Ykcutnek]

25. Making the whole gun bright orange or so ridiculous-looking that the cop wouldn't feel threatened...

would be an even better solution.

Do you have anything against that? If so, why?

[GGJohn]

35. Hell no, that would be the optimum solution.

[Cooley Hurd]

27. Nope. Bad training...

The norm now is to let anyone be a LEO, especially sociopaths. Breaks my heart since my Dad (Battle of the Bulge survivor) was a LEO...


Skippppy...

[adigal]

160. Oh, please...I am no fan of cops but to say that training could prevent this is absurd

Have you ever been in this situation, where you have someone taking out something that looks like a gun? And you tell him to drop it and he doesn't? And if you don't react, your family may be burying you??

No. Most of us haven't. This is not like Ferguson. This is a tragic error and even if the gun was orange and it was dark, the cop may not have been able to tell the difference.

The only solution is to make toy guns look like toys. That's it.

[Cooley Hurd]

161. Again... bad training:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/24/tamir-rice-boy-shot-cleveland-police_n_6211064.html

[sarisataka]

52. I regularly carry

A compact 1911- it is much smaller than that and is very real

[avaistheone1]

80. I blame the cops

They did not have to use lethal force.

[GGJohn]

83. I blame the fool who removed the legally mandated orange tip that should have been

on that gun, I blame the manufacturer who made it look realistic.

[Orrex]

95. With respect, you're missing the point.

The argument is that, no matter what, we absolutely can't blame this tragedy on the insane proliferation of guns or gun culture, nor hold anyone in the gun industry responsible for the preposterous lethality of their products.

[GGJohn]

97. I won't argue that point,

the cops are alot more jumpy due to more guns, the violent nature of our society, lack of mental health system.

This whole shooting is a tragedy all around.

[Lurks Often]

24. You are full of it

It is identical in size to a standard 1911.

You should be embarrassed at the nonsense you are spouting, sadly I strongly doubt you are.

Congratulations on proving that nothing you ever post again is worth the time it takes to read it.

[Cooley Hurd]

28. You clearly know nothing about this particular firearm...

And your veracity is in question now, not mine, Sparky.

[Lurks Often]

32. More crap, I own two and qualified with one in the military

Keep spouting your nonsense

[Cooley Hurd]

37. You own two and you think that's full-sized?

[Lurks Often]

44. Keep posting, your complete lack of credibility or any attempt at integrity is amusing

[Cooley Hurd]

46. Not as amusing as your complete lack of judging scale...

[Lurks Often]

49. Keep doubling down on your nonsense!

[Cooley Hurd]

50. That's all ya got, Sparky?

Lurks Often, learns little from the experience.

[Lurks Often]

62. Looks like no one else in this thread is buying what you're selling

As for you I think I'll go do something more interesting, like watching paint dry, then continue listening to your absurd nonsense.

[Cooley Hurd]

65. I will do just that!

Better than arguing with Authoritarians.

C-ya!

[helpmetohelpyou]

26. It could be my eyes but even in the photo it looks fullsize to me

It looks like a 5 inch barrel length

From what I understand they purposely build these air guns to scale for training purposes .
Right down to the weight of the real firearm even.

[Cooley Hurd]

30. ...only if those are giant hands in the pic.

[X_Digger]

86. Airsoft 1911's can take grips from a real 1911.

Your foot is in your mouth up to your ankle; I suggest you stop chewing before you get to your knee.

[Logical]

59. Police do not accept ANY risk any longer. Just shoot immediately. nt

[GGJohn]

63. I can't fault the cop on this one, if it happened the way they say it happened.

[Logical]

66. Pointed the gun at the cop? nt

[GGJohn]

69. I never said that,

he was told to raise his hands, instead he reached for the gun in his waistband.

[LittleBlue]

76. Holy sh**, that looks real

That's the most realistic looking BB gun I've ever seen. I'd never be able to tell it apart up close, nevermind at a distance.

[Orrex]

91. "But cops are trained to tell the difference!"

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.


What a horrible story.

[Oktober]

29. Hopefully not...

... and if there was a time to keep the hyperbole to a minimum, this is it...

[Cooley Hurd]

33. No hyperbole at all. LEO's in this country are completely out of control...

[Oktober]

47. Believe that or don't...

There's no reason to make this bad situation worse with your agenda....

[kiva]

36. Or maybe the monsters

who thought it was OK to remove the orange tip from this real-looking gun and send the kid out to play with it.

[Cooley Hurd]

38. What reason would someone have to remove the orange tip?

[GGJohn]

39. Who knows?

But clearly, the orange tip has been illegally removed to make the gun look real.

[Cooley Hurd]

42. Perhaps this is an old bb gun?

[GGJohn]

45. No, it's not.

It's an airsoft gun that shoots bb sized plastic pellets.

If you're thinking about the old Crossman BB gun, they look nothing like a modern airsoft gun.



That doesn't look anything like this

[helpmetohelpyou]

54. Just a random video I pulled from youtube

[GGJohn]

57. Jeez, that looks real.

[helpmetohelpyou]

58. right down to the weight even

If you watch the video he also shows a few more and they all look real

[GGJohn]

60. Christ, I spent 40 years in the Army, handling a wide variety of weapons,

and I couldn't tell if that was real or not.

[EX500rider]

101. The kid himself might have done that.

[kiva]

110. And if he did that is terrible.

I hate the fact that it is feasible (not is this case, but it's happened before) in this country that a 12 year old would have a functioning weapon and be on the street with it threatening others...and that that reality led to his death.

But unless someone can prove that this kid just got this gun and/or just took the tip off of it after he left the house that day, I'm saying that any adult living in that house was being irresponsible to allow him out of the house with a gun that now looked like a real weapon. And yes, the grownups had a choice - they could have replaced the tip, they could have taken the bb gun from the kid and disposed of it. He should not have had that 'toy' once it had been altered.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

114. You assume the grownups in the situation knew

[kiva]

123. No, I assume that they should have known.

A BB gun isn't a toy gun, it fires pellets that can kill small animals and cause injuries - insert the obligatory "You'll shoot your eye out!". As such, parents should have been more aware of this possession more than, say, a game console or something else that won't harm people, and they should have damn well known that it had been altered.

I get that parents don't/can't know everything their kid does - we'd all still be grounded if they did; I get that kids this age are pulling away and asserting their independence as they should, but this still doesn't excuse the adults in the household from keeping track of something this important.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

139. When I was young

a BB gun actually looked like a small rifle, which would have been a bit harder to hide.

That air gun, on the other hand, would be very easy to hide. I'm a pretty strict parent, but I can assure you that I'm not going to search my teen's room unless I have a suspicion that something is wrong, and I don't think most parents will, either.

[kiva]

141. The point is that someone gave this kid this BB gun.

They deliberately chose one that looked like a real gun, unlike the BB rifles we remember. They then either let the boy take complete control of the BB gun, so missed the fact it had been altered, or they saw that it had been altered and didn't care.

You could be right that the parents didn't know that the kid had the gun, but so many of these stories about kids and weapons involve parents allowing the kids to have them or not supervising them around weapons that I've become cynical.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

142. Well, I doubt that this boy's parent(s) gave him the air gun

But, I could be wrong, and I hope I'm wrong. I can't imagine the guilt I would feel as a parent knowing I had a hand in my child's death.

[kiva]

144. It's so sad,

and I'm with you about the guilt, it would be horrific.

[belzabubba333]

43. on what charges - kid pointed a gun at him

[boston bean]

53. I read he told the kid to put the gun down and he reached into his waistband

and he shot him.

How is he suppose to put a gun down with out getting it out to put it down.

[Jenoch]

64. The story says the officer told him to put

his hands up and the boy pulled the gun out of his waistband, and that is when the officer fired his weapon.

[belzabubba333]

111. youre very wrong how could you have read that here from the article

The officer ordered the boy to put his hands in the air. Instead, police said, the boy reached for his gun. Deputy Chief Edward Tomba said the boy made no verbal threats to the officer and there was no physical confrontation.

The officer fired twice at the boy, hitting him in the stomach

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/12-year-old_boy_shot_by_clevel.html

[FarPoint]

157. Excellent point you make there....

Also confused as to the idea if the toy gun is in his waist band, how was the child also pointing the gun?

[SummerSnow]

138. They will say the cop didn't have time to determine if the gun was real or fake.

He wont be charged at all. Then they will say the same old story about he is on suspension desk duty blah blah blah

[FarPoint]

158. I agree with your analysis.

Mike DeWine controlled the Ohio Walmart shooting evidence and Grand Jury to keep the cops free...I sense the same playbook will be used here.

[helpmetohelpyou]

4. damn

[Stargazer09]

7. That makes me very sad

Regardless of his actions, he did not deserve to die.

[liberal N proud]

10. The tragedy here is that a 12 year old was in the street with a very real looking BB gun

And that he was not taught to put the gun down if a police officer instructed him to do so.

Why do they make BB-Guns that look like real guns?

Why would you buy your 12 year old a BB-Gun that looks like a real gun in the inner city?

This case is far different than the one in Ferguson.

[GGJohn]

13. Those airsoft guns are, by law, supposed to have an orange tip on it,

someone removed the tip.

[liberal N proud]

17. Making for more questoins

Why would you tamper with a safety device, one that would save your life?

[UglyGreed]

73. But in the heat of the moment will the

police even recognize the orange? Also what is stopping a person painting the tip of a real gun orange?

[GGJohn]

77. Simple solution?

Either manufacture the damn things in all orange, red, purple, lavender, or change the design so that there's no way they can be mistaken for a real gun.

[UglyGreed]

78. I'm just saying in this day and age

anyone carrying a gun around in public is looking for trouble. Too many shootings are going on these days people are scared. I used to go around with my bb gun all the time in the 70s and no one gave a damn, not today. BTW I allow my 12 year son shoot my 20 year old Sheridan pellet rifle only in the basement, while I'm there and it is always in my possession when not in use. Parents need to understand the points I made and take the appropriate means to protect their children.

[GGJohn]

79. I agree with you 100%.

Back in the 60's, when I was in High School, I used to drive to school with my hunting rifle and shotgun in a gun rack in the back window of my truck and after school, go hunting.
Different times.

[UglyGreed]

85. Let me add

the police are also to blame in the this action. So many mistakes on all sides and now a family is preparing for a funeral for a 12 year old boy.

[GGJohn]

89. I just can't fault this cop,

I'm wondering if the info about it possibly being a fake gun was passed on to the responding officers?
I thought I read that the info wasn't relayed, if it had been, the outcome may very well had been different..

But, you're right, mistakes were made and now a family is in mourning and preparing for a funeral.

[UglyGreed]

93. It seems it was not.

The dispatcher should of included that info. That said who knows if that would helped. The boy probably was going to show the cop it was not a real gun IF he did reached for it. Just so sad and I know if my boy snuck out with the pellet gun and got killed I would blame myself first. Thank you for your replies.

There are many states that do not have air gun laws. The following is a list of states that do not have those laws: Oregon, Idaho, Nevada, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Iowa, Arkansas, Louisiana, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, Kentucky, Vermont, Maryland, West Virginia, Hawaii, and Alaska


http://pelletgunzone.com/air-gun-laws/

[EX500rider]

102. Unfortunately then they can just spray it flat black.

[GGJohn]

103. That's true.

Congress should pass a law that mandates that those guns be designed in such a way that they would never be mistaken for the real deal, not that I expect that to ever happen.

[HereSince1628]

113. Yes, who and WHEN?

all possibilities have to be investigated without prior prejudice.

[Warren Stupidity]

34. He wasn't holding the "gun".

Two officers found the boy in the playground and ordered him to raise his hands, but he instead reached for what the officers thought was a gun in his waistband, police said.

He was shot while not holding anything at all.

[helpmetohelpyou]

48. WHAT??? that's not the report I read

It said the gun was on the table and he reached and put it in his waistban when he saw the cops
pull up

[GGJohn]

51. That's the same report I read also.

The cops observed a black gun on the table, they observed the 12 year old pick it up and place it in his waistband, when confronted, the kid reached for the gun in his waistband, at that point, the cop felt his life was in jeopardy and fired at him, hitting him in the stomach.

Whoever illegally removed the orange tip is responsible for the tragic death of this child.

[Logical]

70. And this also....

The caller twice said the gun was "probably fake" and told dispatchers the person pulling the gun from his waistband was "probably a juvenile," according to audio released by police officials late Saturday.

Once again, they want NO RISK for a well paid job. Just shoot, no downside.

[GGJohn]

74. Probably fake.

If I saw a realistic looking gun like that and someone reaching for it after being told to put their hands up, I quite likely would take the same action.

It sucks that this child was shot and killed, but in this case, I won't fault the cop.

[Logical]

96. The 911 call was correct. Maybe the cop can wait for the gun to be removed before killing a kid. nt

[GGJohn]

98. That info wasn't passed on to the responding officers,

so they had no way to know if it was fake or not.

And what cop in his right mind is going to wait for a gun to be drawn on them?
You seem to just want to blame the cops when the true blame lies with whoever removed the orange tip.

[Logical]

99. Error on the side of not killing is my motto. nt

[GGJohn]

100. Fine, that's your motto, you're welcome to it,

meanwhile, I won't fault the cop for protecting his life in what he perceived as a deadly threat, I will blame whoever removed the orange tip, thereby making the gun look real.

[Logical]

104. Cops want no risk, like I said, just shoot. And seldom any downside except the citizens pay.....

the lawsuit and not the cop.

Citizens pay MILLIONS a year for cops mistakes.

Disagree?

[GGJohn]

105. Yes they do, but in this case, all evidence so far supports the cops version

that this was a clean shoot.

[branford]

125. The police were also protecting the other children and adults in the vicinity,

not just themselves. That is their job, and they appeared to have acted properly, if tragically,

[Oktober]

106. How many times should an Officer be shot at before returning with lethal force?

Is anyone seriously suggesting that LE should have to take fire before they can respond?

[Logical]

107. The kid actually pointed the gun at the cop? nt

[Oktober]

108. Oh... Game playing... neato...

At what point do you believe a cop should be authorized to use force...?

[Logical]

112. When walking up on a non-felon stop or a criminal on the run....

maybe wait to see if they are planning on using it and not just dropping it.


You obviously don't get the old "He was reaching in his waistband" line that is used ALL THE TIME.

[Oktober]

115. Got it...

That's kind of the point... You know how you find out if someone is 'planning on using it'?

They pull the trigger and bullets come towards you...

[Logical]

127. And you are the reason "reaching in his waistband" BS always covers the police mistakes. nt

[branford]

128. I was under the distinct impression that bullets fired by a child don't actually cause any damage?

[Number23]

129. "I won't fault the cop." Exactly how many times do you think you need to post this in this thread?

20? 50?

And my goodness, you are so magnanimous with your "it sucks that this child was shot and killed" comment. Like a balm to the soul of that child's family, it must be.

All of this certainly does explain why you were so hyped up and agitated in this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025849692

I think you posted in it more than the person who started it.

[GGJohn]

130. As many fucking times as I want,

Don't like? Don't read it or put me on ignore. Problem solved.

[Number23]

131. lol As if your other posts weren't highlighting in full technicolor what type of person you are

and what you're trying to do here, thanks for clarifying beyond any shred of all doubt.

[GGJohn]

132. Glad I could accomodate you.

Now, run along and bug someone else with your internet psychology.

[Number23]

133. But I'm not done posting "but I CAN fault the cop!" 162 times in this thread and others

about an unarmed 12 year old child being gunned down by police. You know, as a blatant counter to your more blatant trolling.

[GGJohn]

134. Here, just for you.

I won't fault the cop and unless there's evidence to the contrary, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

Now, don't you have another appointment awaiting for your invaluable internet psychology expertise?

[Number23]

137. "I'll give him the benefit of the doubt." Which is a shit load more than that child got

Which is a shit load more than most black men/boys get when confronting a police officer.

Your particular "benefit of the doubt" will be hard to distinguish from the multitude of right wing illiterates who will be giving the same because when a cop kills a black person, that black person simply MUST have done something to deserve it, even if he is a child. Sometimes, what folks say about "the company you keep" is nothing but the truth.

[GGJohn]

140. There's that invaluable internet psychology at work.

Hope you didn't pay too much for your degree, if so, you should ask for a refund.

[Number23]

145. I love how you think that you're looking good, cute or funny in this conversation

and any of the others where you ran, not walked honey -- RAN to defend the folks with all of the power from all of the mean, bad people who have none.

I mean if anything deserves the emoticon, it's that you think that for one second, no one can here tell who and what you are. Now THAT'S funny.

[GGJohn]

146. You really need to get a refund for that degree in internet psychology,

because it sure ain't worth the paper it's written on.
But. please, do carry on with your cute rants.

[Number23]

147. Hey, as long as you keep running to lick the boots of people who oppress and kill black folks

at every given opportunity, you can best believe that I and others will carry on!

Thanks for the "permission!" It's about as necessary and witty as your retorts about Internet psychology degrees. Which, judging by the number of times you keep mentioning them despite my attempts at being polite and ignoring how lame and stupid it is, you obviously think actually DO exist or that endlessly mentioning them is clever and witty indeed.

[GGJohn]

148. Meh, you bore me.

Have a good night.

[Number23]

149. You know when to slink away. That's a mark in your favor.

1 out of 100 ain't bad.

[GGJohn]

150. LOL.

Slink away.

[Number23]

151. Slither? Is that better?

Probably more accurate.

[GGJohn]

152. What ever floats your boat.

[Number23]

153. You're right. Either will do.

Glad to see you coming to grips with some hard truths.

Seems your "you bore me I'm going night night now" was just as genuine and honest as you running around GD screaming that "THE GUN LOOKED REALLLLLLL!!!one!1!!eleven" in attempt to "give the benefit of the doubt" and "get to the truth."

You guys are something. But I won't say what.

[GGJohn]

154. I'm retired, I can do this all night if you want.

Sure looks real to me.
How about you? Does it look real?

[Number23]

155. It could but I'm happy to concede that I am not a weapons trained law enforcement officer

So something looking real to me is completely immaterial. But you knew that... right?

[GGJohn]

156. I am trained and if I saw that, I would think it's real,

what's fucked up is that the orange tip is missing, whoever removed that tip is, IMO, responsible for the death of this child.

[branford]

124. What utter garbage.

First, "probably fake" also means "could be real." It sure looked real to me, particularly without the orange plug. The test of whether a gun is real is most definitely not a dead or injured police officer or innocent bystanders including other children. Accordingly, even if the this information was relayed to the officers, it might not have made any difference.

"Probably a juvenile" also most certainly does not mean "not deadly." Have you watched the news lately? The police correctly identified the juvenile. He had what appeared to be an actual firearm to any reasonable observer, and then did not comply with police instructions.

According to the reports, it also wasn't a "just shoot" scenario. The boy was allegedly told to put his hands up. He apparently did not. In fact, it is allegedly he grabbed the gun.

[Logical]

71. And the 911 caller said it was "probably fake".....

The caller twice said the gun was "probably fake" and told dispatchers the person pulling the gun from his waistband was "probably a juvenile," according to audio released by police officials late Saturday.

[otohara]

40. So Only Rural Kids

should own real looking guns?

Here son, go shoot some tiny critters... because we know kids who kill small animals are likely to be kinda kooky when
they grow up.

How about not buying real looking guns for any kid.

[liberal N proud]

116. I think I mentioned not buying a kid a real looking gun

As for guns and kids in the inner city, what are they going to shoot at?


Windows?

[MoonRiver]

20. Poor baby

[RiverLover]

31. This is so so tragic. ~nt

[hlthe2b]

41. Oh, gawd... how horrendous

Yet, again...

[sarisataka]

55. Sad situation

I can understand why the kid (or whoever) removed the orange tip- they wanted to be "cool". I recall doing dumb things in my younger days

In this case I can understand why the person called the police, someone pointing a gun is cause for concern.

I can understand why the cop fired. If he waited for the kid to shoot, he is dead if the gun is real.

I have trouble understanding why the kid reached for the gun. Likely to show it was a toy, but telling first would have been better.

What I cannot understand is why the dispatcher did not relay rhe information that the gun was probably not real and it was just kids playing. That would have changed the whole dynamic of how the cops approached the situation.

[MrMickeysMom]

136. By this time, even if the dispatcher was able to relay that...

… I'm having major trouble imagining WHY the police did not approach him from inside the police vehicle.

Maybe bullet proof vehicles are a better way to say, "You there! Citizen!"

[Lint Head]

56. This is tragic yet not unexpected in our wonderful

gun sodomizing bullet kissing culture. Children will always play with facsimiles of the things adults approve of and some will die because an adult will make sure they are dead.

[UglyGreed]

72. Very, very sad

just read the article to my 12 year son. RIP

[99Forever]

75. Yay for mo' gunz mo' gunz mo' gunz.

[Rex]

81. No doubt the NRA Death Roadshow will show up soon.

It is important to keep people fearful of the right things doncha know.

[Cooley Hurd]

87. They're already here...

[Initech]

90. How many more stories are we going to have to see before something is done?

[Droning Predator]

109. Let me guess: The cop is white, the kid was black, right?

I've never referred to police as "pigs." I am now reconsidering.

[malaise]

117. Of course he was African American

and CNN simply said the gun looked real.

[GGJohn]

118. This is the airsoft gun recovered at the scene:

Can you tell if it's real or fake?

[malaise]

119. Then shoot him in the arm

That cop shot to kill - a fugging 12 year old

[helpmetohelpyou]

120. That's not as easy as it's made out to be in movies

[malaise]

121. Only because they are trained to kill n/t

[branford]

126. Can you kindly provide the basis for your firearm, tactical and police training expertise?

It sure would be nice if police could just shoot guns out of peoples' hands and other fine Hollywood effects. However, back in the real world, it's exceedingly difficult even for expert marksman under optimal conditions to make such shots, no less police officers in a life or death scenarios. More likely, such ridiculous showmanship would result either in a miss that either seriously wounds or kills the target anyway, or more likely, a wild shot that could both injure a bystander and permit the suspect an opportunity to kill the officer.

Police are properly taught to shoot at center mass in order to quickly and efficiently stop the target and remove the threat to themselves and the public. They are not taught to "shoot to kill" or "shoot to wound," because it makes no practical or tactical sense. They shoot at center mass because under real world conditions, evening aiming at this largest body target and firing many shots, trained officers still only generally hit one or twice, and even that may not stop the target.

[GGJohn]

122. Wrong, again.

Cops are trained to shoot center mass, and they're not trained to shoot to kill, they're trained to shoot until the threat is stopped.

Shoot him in the arm? Do you have any idea how hard it is to hit a target that small?
This isn't Hollywood were the good guy shoots the gun out of the hand of the bad guy.

In this case, I won't fault the cop as long as his story matches the evidence, which so far, seems to be the case.

[X_Digger]

143. 'Shoot to wound' is hollywood bullshit.

If deadly force is justified, you shoot to stop the threat as quickly as possible. Anything less demonstrates that you don't believe that death or grievous bodily injury is imminent.

Not to mention the physiological effects of believing that your life is on the line- adrenaline dump leads to spiked heart rate, tunnel vision, loss of fine motor control, tightening of major muscle groups preparing for fight or flight.

In that condition, anyone is likely to miss center mass (3 in 10 shots hitting a suspect is considered average for a true fire fight.)

Shooting someone's arm in those circumstances? Bwahahaha.

[MrMickeysMom]

135. I had to check the link, just to see if he was indeed black… he was...

This country's going to explode.

[adigal]

159. My heart breaks for this family and young boy, but I don't think we can blame the cops

I think anyone could mistake a gun that doesn't look like a toy for the real thing. And believe me, I have a real bone to pick with cops this month.

The ones at fault here are the people who make realistic looking guns. That needs to stop.