I work with teens Michael Brown's age and the number one rule is

[adigal]

Last edited Sat Nov 29, 2014, 03:14 PM - Edit history (1)

DO NOT escalate. When a kid gets riled, you defuse the situation. You do not ever, ever escalate. The brains of 18 year olds are not developed, their judgement is faulty. Wilson was a trained adult cop. He screwed up from the first moment he made contact, yelling at those young men from his car in a confrontational way.

My approach to teens has served me well for over 20 years. Defuse, use calm talk, humor and be respectful. If Wilson had done those things, and been taught to see teens and minorities as human beings, Michael Brown would be alive today. I would bet my life on it.

[pipoman]

1. Desperate people who are not wanting to go to jail can't be reasoned with...

[WinkyDink]

5. You are referring to Wilson, are you not? Because, you know, he actually KILLED SOMEONE.

[samsingh]

14. yes, wilson killed an unarmed black boy who was not threatening anyone

Wilson escalated the situation.

[joshdawg]

18. I seriously doubt Wilson was even thinking about defusing a situation.

He saw a prime opportunity to utilize excessive force, figuring he would get away with it. He did and he did.
There is/was no justice for Michael Brown.

[rock]

32. Wilson was a bully first and foremost

So bingo! He was thinking about how to escalate the situation.

[Travis_0004]

37. And brown wasn't? What about assaulting a shop keeper?

[Redford]

41. That is the inconvenient truth around here.

Mike Brown did not deserve to die for his actions but he escalated the situation himself. My Latino son knows to be respectful of police at all times or he could die the same way.

[daleanime]

53. We don't discuss it here much....

because it doesn't matter.




People keep throwing this crap to see if any of it sticks. None of it matters. I will tell you what does matter-a human life.

[Niceguy1]

74. yes human life does matter

And so does the assault in the store.....it gives an indication of browns state of mind

[daleanime]

83. Which tells me some else that doesn't matter....

your opinion.

[Niceguy1]

92. no more

And no less than yours

[samsingh]

96. the point is that the cop is not or should not be entitled to the use of deadly force as his first

option.

the shopkeeper incident is a justification for Brown's murder. And anyone who's using that as an explanation is suspect in my opinion. I would use stronger language but my post will get hidden.

[tblue37]

100. Check your post. I am pretty sure it says the opposite of what you mean for it to say. nt

[R B Garr]

131. That was hardly assault. The man came at Brown and he

pushed back. All the indication about Brown's "state of mind" is that he'll push back when confronted. He wasn't chasing the store clerk down to assault him. He wasn't chasing the cop down to assault him.

Maybe cops shouldn't pull their cars up next to people so close that they can't physically get out of their car because a body is there and then call it assault -- because the body is there. The stupidity of that is just appalling.

[Live and Learn]

137. +1 nt

[rury]

214. It's not even stupidity. It was an intentionally confrontational move

by Wilson. He was looking for a fight. He started out with "get the fuck on the sidewalk." This was not going to end well when the aggressor has a badge and a gun.

[JDPriestly]

191. And backing up because he felt insulted and then opening his car door so as to hit Brown and brush

Johnson tells us something about Wilson's state of mind. Wilson should have called for back-up and waited if he wanted to stop Johnson and Brown. He was the responsible person in that situation. Brown was a thief and may have attacked the store clerk, but he was not posing a violent threat to anyone at the moment that Wilson encountered him. Wilson should not have escalated the situation. He did.

Our police officers need better training. That goes for the entire nation.

If any other public servants acted like our police officers do, we would fire them. And I have known some great, courteous police officers. But most of them are not trained in psychology, and they need to be for their own protection as well as for the protection of the public. Many of them are nice guys, but they react without thinking at times.

Brown should have been arrested but not by Wilson alone. Wilson should not have had any reason to feel so threatened. In fact, he did the threatening when he backed up and reacted to Brown's insult. Then opening the door so as to hit Brown? What was that about?

[rury]

211. Regardless of Michael Brown's "state of mind"

which you profess to "know," perhaps by osmosis, an execution by an out-of-control cop was NOT the penalty Brown deserved for shoving a store clerk and stealing some cigars. Brown committed petty theft, not some capital crime.
Wilson's response was not appropriate.
When Brown ran away UNARMED, Wilson should have kept his murderous ass in the police car, radioed a description of Brown and asked for backup so that he could have been apprehended and given due process of law. That means an arrest, arraignment and a trial by his peers or a confession, followed by an appropriate punishment in proportion to a minor offense.
Brown did not deserve to be shot because of ''the assault in the store." Nobody was killed or seriously harmed "in the store."

[Niceguy1]

230. unfortunately

Forensics shows that Brown was shot as he was approaching the officer, not fleeing.

The so called facts we have been hearing for the last few months aren't all true.

[R B Garr]

231. Not entirely proven, either. Of the 12 shots, not all entered the body.

There was a brilliant post by someone here a couple days ago that questioned where all 12 shots went as some bullets were unaccounted for and not recovered. The whole thread was very good. He could have been shot at as he was fleeing. So your lockstep talking points that he "was shot" as he was approaching are also not entirely accurate. There were also a couple arm entries that were ambiguous. These items were first discussed at length on multiple media stations, and that was also before the Grand Jury document dump.

[LanternWaste]

284. What precisely then, does it indicate?

"it gives an indication of browns state of mind..."

What precisely then, does it indicate? And on what objective measure is your creative answer based on? Or (and I find this more likely), it's simply an uniformed allegation on your part...

[WinkyDink]

105. Michael Brown was, at the time seen by Darren Wilson, SIMPLY WALKING. Do YOU want to be told to get

out of the street by some cop? I walk in the street; some people RUN in the streets.

AND THEY ARE NOT HASSLED.

Anything you say about the alleged theft (there was no trial for that, either) is irrelevant to the shooting.

And your lesson to your son is more telling about the police than about Michael Brown.

[samsingh]

108. and according to the chief of police or the mayor, wilson did not know about the shopkeeper incident

which is being used to justify wilson's murderous actions (alleged)

[adigal]

121. You are right - he didn't deserve to die for that

And it had nothing to do with the confrontation with the police. So why bring it up?

[rock]

42. Let's we say he was

Which one had the gun and the badge? As for assaulting the shop keeper, it looks like he may have tussled his hair. What's your point? Next you'll be telling me Hitler killed Jews.

[Shemp Howard]

63. You've got be be kidding.

"As for assaulting the shop keeper, it looks like he may have tussled his hair."

Really? I mean, really? Do you really think that Brown's interaction with the shop keeper should be described that way? Do you think that the shop keeper would agree with you? Have you ever been violently pushed around by a younger, stronger person?

It's comments like that one that weaken the pro-Brown (in the street), anti-police argument. It makes us look silly. Please reconsider.

[ncjustice80]

66. How about you stop blaming the victim.

Brown was an innocent child MURDERED by a pig with a badge.

[mythology]

73. It's not blaming the victim to point out a tendency towards violence

Especially give the limited time between the incident in the shop and the shooting. It's foolish to believe somebody who just committed one violent act wouldn't be involved in a second.

[ncjustice80]

81. Wow.

Im at a loss for words. You are sticking up for wilsonthepig and blaming an unarmed child fornbeing murderered.

[daleanime]

90. No, it's not blaming....

but it is often offer up as justification and any one using it should know that.


Now let's give you your best case situation and have the guy being an active participate in two violent actions that day.


Should he have lost his life?



One word answer PLEASE.

[JDPriestly]

192. The point of the OP is that with a kid Brown's age, it is the responsibility of the adult, here

Wilson, to de-escalate the violence.

That is very true. The point is that teenagers like Brown do not have the self-control that we expect of a mature police officer.

A lot of our police need to learn that.

And personally, I don't think that kids under 18 should legally have access or possession of guns without the supervision of an adulty for the very reason that they are too immature to handle them.

[rury]

222. "A tendency toward violence?" Did you know Michael Brown personally

or complete a psychological assessment of him in order to determine that he "had a tendency toward violence" because of one incident?
Have you ever done anything that should not do?? Does that mean that you would keep doing it or do it again a few minutes later?
Thy name is mythology because thou dost employ mythological reasoning here!!

[Shemp Howard]

84. nc, there are two separate incidents here

The first incident happened in the shop. Brown allegedly pushed the shop keeper around. It is silly, and demeaning to the shop keeper, to describe that as "he may have tussled his hair."

The second incident was the shooting of Brown in the street. What does the first incident have to do with the second? Nothing! I think the cop criminally overreacted in the street. My opinion about what happened in the street has nothing to do with what happened in the store.

[adigal]

122. Yes. This is it. Not related at all.

And Brown didn't KILL the shopkeeper. He was a brat, and a jerk in the shop, but he didn't hurt him. He was an 18 year old exercising bad judgment and then a bully cop came along, and spoke to Brown like an animal. So it escalated.

Wilson had the "training." Wilson had the gun. Wilson should have defused the situation, not escalated it.

[deist99]

157. Judgement?

Strong arm robbery is not "bad judgement" it is a criminal offense. Have you even watched the video from the convenience store? When the shop owner tries to stop Brown from leaving the convenience store Brown violently shoves him away. Brown then approaches the store owner in a very aggressive way.

I was just as upset as everyone else when I first heard that a white cop shot an unarmed black boy in the back. But I am about a third of the way through the grand jury transcripts and once Brown went for the officers gun all bets were off, it wouldn't have mattered if he was white, Hispanic or an albino Eskimo midget.

[JDPriestly]

193. Wilson should have waited for back-up to diffuse the situation with Brown.

Wilson made a difficult situation with an angry kid much worse than it was. That is the point of the OP. Kids like Brown do not have the self-control that a man of Wilson's age hopefully does.

And on top of it all, Wilson had additional responsibility for staying calm and waiting for back-up because HE HAD A GUN. Wilson was safe, and if he had waited for back-up he would have been safer.

Imagine a situation in which Wilson had not backed up his car, had not opened the car door so as to hit Brown. The day would have been like any other. A second cop car would have pulled up. The news of the theft in the store would have caused the police to arrest Brown. Wilson would not have been afraid. Two officers, maybe three, would have arrested Brown with no problem.

This is a matter of police incompetence. It simply is not necessary to kill an 18-year-old kid in that situation. Arrest him? Yes. But do it so as to save his life.

[deist99]

219. Handled better

I will give that it could have been handled better. But I would bet money that Wilson never expected Brown to attack him. No matter what age you are you listen when the police tell you to do something. That is what I was taught growing up and what I teach my kids, and I have used this episode as an example.
I still find it unbelievable that Brown and his buddy were walking down the middle of the street after committing a robbery. If Johnson didn't testify to this to the grand jury I would think Wilson was lying because it is so unbelivable to me. It is like something off that show worlds dumbest criminals.

[rury]

224. Wilson SAID Brown attacked him. Dorian Johnson said that the only reason that Brown was so close to

the police vehicle is because Wilson grabbed him by the neck and tried to pull him into the car. Other witnesses saw Wilson back up the vehicle and confront Brown and Johnson who were walking away from him. That makes Wilson the initial attacker. At any rate, Wilson then started firing shots at Brown as he fled on foot unarmed. Wilson should have gotten back into the patrol car and called for backup to apprehend Brown. Wilson criminally overreacted. That is all.

[JDPriestly]

229. Actually, how you repond to the police depends a lot on your cultural and racial background.

A young, hispanic guy was arrested in my side-yard one day.

He reacted very differently to the police stop and questioning than my white, middle-class children would have.

The whole point of the discussion on DU is explaining the reason for that difference.

My view is that Wilson incited a confrontation and, because he was in the position of authority and therefore in charge, should have waited for back-up.

Instead, Wilson backed up his car in a neighborhood that was as someone said "anti-police" and started the confrontation that way.

Should Brown have been arrested for the theft of the cigarillos? Yes. But not by one officer alone. Wilson should have waited for back-up. Was Wilson just itching for a fight? Did he have some intent to escalate the situation possibly even to violence? We will never know, but Wilson knows. It's a burden he will have to live with for the rest of his life. This is the stuff of a man's nightmares.

[deist99]

250. Maybe

Maybe it does but there is an acceptable way to respond and a non-acceptable way. Attacking a police man is a non acceptable way no matter your culture.

[JDPriestly]

269. True, but Wilson had choices other than to confront Brown all by himself. He should have waited

for a back-up car or officer.

Brown was 18. 18-year-olds do a lot of stupid things.

Brown should have been arrested in my opinion for the theft in the store -- but the officer should have done what he could to avoid a violent confrontation that could lead to death.

Wilson was the grown-up. He was trained in law enforcement. His backing up and then responding to a stupid insult and trying to open the car door and allegedly hitting Brown with the door were all acts that escalated the situation.

A simple stop turned into a deadly encounter. That was Wilson's fault.

Was Brown out of place, discourteous? Yes. Was his behavior unacceptable? Yes. But it should not have earned him a death sentence.

[JDPriestly]

279. I don't think I answered you very well.

If a person grows up in a sector of society in which the police are the folks you call when you are in trouble, the folks who are going to help you out and be on your side, then that person will respect the police and respond "appropriately" to the police (except when mentally ill, drunk or extremely angry).

But if you grow up in a sector of society that is not protected by the police, that is if the police come to your door to arrest your brother or to ask questions about things you did not do or if they stop your "kind" all too often for doing petty things like walking in the middle of a street in a residential area, then you don't trust the police, you don't like the police and you are unlikely to respect or trust the police.

So that is what I mean by culture. It is not a criticism of black or hispanic culture. Because the culture is not created within the black or hispanic communities. The culture is created within our society overall.

I recall living in a poor neighborhood when my children were young. One day I got a knock on the door. When the police officer saw me, he looked a little surprised but he pulled himself together and without any sort of courteous preface (the kind of gentile treatment I was used to), he said to me -- voice gruff as a bear, "Do you know where your children are?" My children, two girls, 7 and 9 were, I thought sleeping in a tiny bedroom maybe 18 feet from the front door. (Poor neighborhood, very small house.) But a chill went through me. Were they kidnapped? Had someone stolen them? How could that have happened when I was sitting right there at home with them. I said, "Yes. I think they are asleep in their bedroom." The officer looked utterly shocked. And then finally, he treated me like a person and started asking the ages of my children, etc. Seems he had knocked on the wrong door. He was looking for my neighbor's house, the (also white) guy next door with the sticker on the back of his truck saying "God made man, Smith & Weston keeps them equal" or something to that effect.

I got a taste of what it was to be treated like one of them, one of the easy arrests, one of the points for efficiency and success down at police headquarters, one of the "suspects." I got a taste of what it must be like to be a member of a suspect minority in America when it comes to being harassed by a police officer. And that part of my encounter was brief -- really only a few seconds or a couple of minutes. Once the officer realized what "kind" I was, he backed off. And it made sense that he did.

The officer assumed that I was a perpetrator of something or that my children were. Brown was assumed to be a perpetrator and would have been even if he had done nothing wrong.

There is a deep social problem in our society when skin color and neighborhood are bases for deciding whether to treat a person as a suspect or not. And that is the case in many urban areas of America. It may be different in small towns where the police kind of know the troublemakers.

[pipoman]

270. This completely ridiculous"child" nonsense isn't helping your case.

[rock]

80. Really

You got it in one.

[Shemp Howard]

95. I don't understand your thinking.

You seem to be minimizing a violence act, solely because the act wasn't done by an authority figure. Suppose instead that the cop had shaken down the shop keeper before shooting Brown. Would you have judged the shop incident differently?

As I posted previously, Brown's alleged actions in the shop have nothing to do with the street shooting. I am appalled by those who somehow justify the shooting based on the shop incident. But I am also appalled by your dismissal of the way the shop keeper was treated.

I respect your opinion, but I will not be reading any of your responses. We are obviously way too far apart.

[samsingh]

99. not much of a bully - poor kid didn't even have a gun

while the thugish cop shot him 5 times

[R B Garr]

101. Yet the shopkeeper didn't call the police, so he didn't feel assaulted

Otherwise there would be a record of his 911 call wherein he phoned in a "robbery" and an "assault," -- but he didn't. The video itself shows him confronting Brown, so he couldn't have felt that much fear. Brown pushed back on him, but that's it. So what about it?

[wercal]

156. The shopkeeper called the police - and a report was filed

Not sure why the importance of using the 911 system matters to you. Its easily documented and their report can be found with a simple web search.

No matter what one thinks about the case, trivializing a strongarm robbery weakens any subsequent argument you might have.

Now Wilson testified in a sworn testimony to the grand jury that the cigar wrappers caught his eye. Do you think he lied about that....and the prosecutor didn't notice? The people involved in this case seem to take it for granted that Wilson knew of the robbery....yet you believe otherwise. Do you believe its a conspiracy?...And the prosecutor is in on it?

[R B Garr]

159. A bystander called the police. The shop worker was interviewed immediately

and he confirmed that, unless you believe the doctored versions of events, which apparently you do.

Why is 911 important? Why do you think? If there is a 911 call, it would be made public. It would also show the fear of the shopkeeper which is being insisted on here, but is obviously not true. So that would mean it wasn't as "strong arm" of a robbery as you obviously insist it was. Anything to smear Michael Brown as much as possible -- could that be your motive for pushing that mantra?

LMAO at Wilson's "sworn testimony." This was nothing but a Cover Your Ass dog and pony show. Who are you kidding.

[wercal]

162. Name calling doesn't answer the question

I still don't know why the use of 911 matters to you....apparently is looked like enough of a robbery for the police to be called. What does your puny brain care if they used smoke signals or the bat signal.

On to Wilson's testimony. You re-affirmed that you don't believe it. So was there a conspiracy? Did the.prosecutor allow Wilson to fabricate a story about hearing of the robbery...under oath...without challenging it?

Get a grip. You are completely irrational and cannot think clearly on this issue.

[R B Garr]

168. What name calling? lol. But I see what you're doing here.

Why is 911 important? Why would you even have to ask that.

Calling 911 indicates an emergency. A "strong arm" robbery would seem to be an emergency. So the shopkeeper didn't deem it an emergency. It's telling who the people are that continue to call it a "strong arm" robbery are generally those who are only interested in smearing Michael Brown as much and as often as possible. Hmmm.

Calling 911 indicates a sense of urgency. The shopkeeper didn't deem it urgent enough or enough of an emergency to call 911. If there was no emergency, if there was no sense of urgency, then it's reduced to what? A minor incident. An incident, yes, but a minor one.

And yes, Wilson was coached. Completely coached to cover his ass. This was a complete Cover Your Ass operation, starting with the absence of a police report. Wilson didn't bother to file one, and it's obvious why.

[wercal]

173. I've called the police a few times in my life

Never called 911 though. I have inside information here - the police have regular phone numbers....you know, for reporting crimes after the fact. Trust me on this one - nobody besides yourself is convinced that the method of calling police speaks to the state of mind of anybody involved with the robbery.

Ok you say Wilson was coached. Not what I asked. You need to explain why you are so lositive Wilson fabricated the cigar story....and the prosecutor did nothing. You kow - the guy you are accusing of being part of a conspiracy. Lucy.....'splain that.

Of course you can't. This is a very complicated and tragic situation in which nobidy acted appropriately....but your infantile mind only sees monochrome cowboy hats.

[R B Garr]

178. I think I've seen enough of who has an "infantile mind."

[wercal]

180. I'll take that as an admission

You have nothing to back up your accusations with.

Now that wasn't that hard was it?

[R B Garr]

187. And I took the absence of 911 calls and a police report

the same way -- nothing to back their accusations up with, including your accusations, which are intent on smearing Michael Brown.

You are right -- that was so easy.

[wercal]

197. And we've gone full circle

Quit saying there wasn't a police report when you know tyat's not true.

Your trolling the issue with your own agenda and lies smears Michael Brown (ask somebody smarter than you to explain why).

[R B Garr]

199. We actually haven't gone full circle.

You are just inserting random ad hominems, innuendo and insults and you continue to do so.

[wercal]

202. Telling you to quit making stuff up does not equal an attack

Unless you can back up your (repeated) claim that there is no police report, your latest accusation is just as unfounded.

This is very simple - is there a police report?

And since the answer is yes (and you know it) why do you keep lying about it?

I'm not attacking you - I'm justifiably calling you a liar....and no amount of deflection (or emoticons) will change that.

I would not be surprised if your problem with this extended beyond the internet and into your 'real life' interpersonal relationships.

[R B Garr]

204. LMAO!

Work it! You are funny.



p.s., I see you're off the red herring about the shop keeper calling the police.

[wercal]

208. You don't understand what a red herring is

Hint: You can't introduce it and later dismiss it as a red herring.

You brought it up....so tell me why you're not a liar.

You can't.

You should work on that. Trust me - nobody else is following our little thread...its just you and me. I caught you in a lie....you are childishly trying to get out of it. The grown up thing is to take your lumps, understand what you did was inappropriate, and do better next time.

[R B Garr]

209. Yet you keep trying to get one of my posts hidden

and you keep on and on and on all the while saying nothing of significance. You brought up the shopkeeper calling for police because of the horrific strong arm robbery, yet none of that happened.

Remember?

[wercal]

210. I have not reported on any of your posts

Do you see how this jumping to conclusions and making false accusations is a recurring problem?

Now all of the sudden I have a personal interest in this. I certainly hope you haven't falsely accused me of reporting on your posts to other users. And since you lack integrity, as previously established on this thread, I can't even believe any assurances you might have to the contrary.

So frankley, yoy are no longer a fun curiosity to me - I'm pissed. No more being helpful.

Quite making shit up in your fucking head and accusing people of shit with nothing to back it up.

[R B Garr]

212. Work it! You really are funny.

I notice you also said nothing about your incorrect comments about the shopkeeper calling police -- because that didn't happen.

Wilson didn't file a police report.

Everything else you've typed has been about me personally, yet I haven't responded in a way to get posts hidden.

[JDPriestly]

194. Wilson neederd to be cross-examined. But that is why a trial was needed and not just a

grand jury hearing.

[whopis01]

220. There was a 911 call and a police report filed

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/08/15/ferguson-police-report.pdf

[R B Garr]

221. A bystander called. That was first reported WAY back.

The shopkeeper did not. He was interviewed right away and said as much.

An incomplete police report was filed -- it was not complete. That was shown on Smoking Gun or something like that.

I'm not interested in the doctored documents.

[R B Garr]

232. btw, do you remember why Ferguson PD said the report was

incomplete? This also goes WAY back. Wilson had to be seen by a physican -- for horrific injuries. But there were no horrific injuries.

[uponit7771]

240. Yeap, the FPD was full of fuckin lies... I don't beleive there's still a small faction on this board

... believing them

[uponit7771]

239. +1, 18 of 20 witness's said Brown had his hands up when he was murdered... the 2 differers

... one of them was a white suppremacist

[WinkyDink]

107. I missed that trial. Unless you think a store tape means a trial isn't necessary to

determine conviction or acquittal?

[green917]

112. last time I checked

Minor assault (he pushed the shop keeper) doesn't merit a death sentence!

[TNNurse]

160. You and I were not there.

However, nothing that has been reported should have caused anyone's death. This was either a poorly trained officer or a hot head who was too quick to use his gun.

[JDPriestly]

189. The point is that Brown although physically large was a kid with poor judgment.

Wilson should have waited for back-up before approaching Brown and Johnson. Wilson was the adult and should have had the judgment to handle that simple situation more maturely. He did not. It was a serious mistake.

Brown was a thief and should have been arrested. But Wilson should not have tried to do it alone.

[rustydog]

205. IF that occurred and video is sketchy at BEST...

since when is simple assault a death penalty without benefit of TRIAL?

[LawDeeDah]

258. Brown was executed with no trial, you think execution for

assaulting a shop keeper is okay?

What if he just had his hands cut off instead of being murdered, you think that would have been too lenient?

[Erose999]

285. Brown was never charged or convicted for that crime, or for the theft of the cigars. Innocent until

proven guilty, right? Well, Brown was not proven guilty by the system. And I'm unaware of any jurisdiction in the nation where its legal to gun someone accused of a crime down in the street without charging or trying them for their crime.

[pipoman]

59. Funny how a cop with years on the force

Didn't have a single complaint on his record for "excessive force", yet trolls for opportunities to "utilize excessive force".

[onecaliberal]

64. The department doesn't keep a record of complaints.

The department he left when he came to ferguson was disbanded because of corruption.

[pipoman]

174. Certainly, if anyone had any story...if anyone's cousin of

Their neighbor had a story, one of the...what was it 1,000?...investigative reporters or hundreds of government investigators would have found them...not one.

[onecaliberal]

225. Give me a fucking break there are stories all over the internet

Surely you're not suggesting the corporate media is going to report on them. Seriously spare me that bullshit.

[pipoman]

271. You're kidding right?

24/7 coverage, daily news stories and yet nobody has made a first hand claim...5 years = thousands of contacts with the public and nary a credible claim...

[onecaliberal]

228. The entire Dept was bad but Wilson was good, right?

http://www.salon.com/2014/08/24/darren_wilsons_former_police_force_was_disbanded_for_excessive_force_and_corruption/

[pipoman]

277. He had been there 2 years and started fresh out of the academy

and again, not even one story about him out of that community.

[SunSeeker]

91. Funny how he was fired from his first cop job...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2851015/Darren-Wilson-violent-confrontation-wife-s-ex-lover-Court-documents-reveal-volatile-home-life-officer-shot-Michael-Brown-grand-jury-never-told-of.html

...Where the entire department was found to have such bad racial issues that they needed to start "from scratch."

And funny that the one time he does shoot his gun in his 5-year career as a cop, it's when he thinks an 18 year old black kid looks like a "demon."

And funny how getting the crap beat out of you by your fiancé's ex makes you a little skittish.

[JDPriestly]

195. Wilson -- out to prove his manhood? Was that a motivation for killing rather than waiting for

back-up? Was that why he may have been seeking a confrontation?

[ScreamingMeemie]

117. Years??

He's a baby cop.

[pipoman]

175. over 5 years copping in

Predominantly black communities iirc...

[ScreamingMeemie]

177. That's a baby cop.

[pipoman]

196. Maybe...it's 5 years on the streets

And nobody has come forward with a racist or abuse complaint. If there had been it would be so much simpler.

[adigal]

120. That's what I think - although my husband, who is an ex-NYC cop, says Wilson is a

"Pussy." Hey, I'm just quoting him.

[jtuck004]

140. Boy? Because he is black? He was a year older, 6" taller and a hundred pounds heavier than I

when I went in the Navy.

Or do you just call all black men boys? Just curious.

[Rhiannon12866]

88. He was walking in the street, hardly a capital offense

I run into that situation every day in my neck-of-the-woods, mildly annoying, but not a police matter.

[IdaBriggs]

19. Why would Wilson have been afraid of going to jail?

The alleged "theft" was only a few dollars.

[Oktober]

26. Maybe he realized that laying hands on the shop owner...

... raised the bar a bit beyond petty shoplifting.

[DeadEyeDyck]

49. strong arm?

[pipoman]

56. People go on high speed chases for less...

Shoplifters run over security guards, etc.

[KingCharlemagne]

62. Just to be sure I understand, are you suggesting that the fault for

escalating the encounter lay with Michael Brown? I don't know you from Adam, but if you are suggesting that Michael Brown was at fault, you should defend your statement or you will rightfully be accused of victim blaming.

[Mojo Electro]

129. the answer to this question

lies solely in knowing what actually happened at the window to the cop car. We know Mike's hands were inside the cop car. (based on the blood evidence) So the question "did Wilson grab him and try to pull him or did Mike reach in?"... knowing the answer to that question would tell us who escalated the situation.

[PsychGrad]

135. I don't think it's far fetched

to believe that the second time that Wilson used his vehicle to cut off Mike and his friend, that Wilson possibly grabbed his gun to begin to "control" the two young men since they were refusing to walk on the sidewalk. If that happened to me, my survival instinct would result in me trying to push the gun away from being pointed at me and I would have no problem reaching into the cop car to do so if a cop was trying to shoot me for walking in the street and not getting on the sidewalk. I am a white woman, but as a teenager, I walked down the middle of the street daily and nightly with a gang of friends. I was belligerent with police officers. I refused their orders bc I was young and rebellious and stubborn. Not once did a police officer ever use their vehicle to to cut into my physical space, or pull a gun on me, or obviously, shoot me multiple times. I shoplifted regularly as a poor kid, stealing things of the same value as cigarillos - I mouthed off to shop owners and workers. And I'm here, never having had any incident with a police officer attempting to take my life for my stupid teenaged antics. I was raised in a good family, strong work ethic, but we were poor - and I wanted things I couldn't afford, so I got them. I was an honor student but mouthy.

I now work with teenagers, and guess what? They are all pretty similar to me when I was a kid. Mouthy, obnoxious, rebellious - trying to assert themselves in that weird "not a kid anymore but not quite an adult yet" world. They can be at times child like and yet other times work too hard at trying to look like adults that can handle anything. It's called, searching for autonomy. It's a very normal and very healthy process of maturation into adulthood. Most make it through that period, except young black men - who tend to not nearly as often as their white counterparts.

I honestly think that Wilson cut them off twice (his testimony) with his vehicle - which to me, is pretty damn threatening, especially for just walking in the street. I think that when the two young men refused to do "as they were told" that Wilson began to posture with his gun, I would guess he made verbal threats too (not in his testimony - in his testimony he was very polite and practically whiny begging them to just walk on the sidewalk so that he didn't have to kill them). And I believe that Mike Brown was in fear for HIS life and reached into the car to push the loaded gun away that was being pointed at him or that he was being verbally threatened with - as I think MOST people would do if threatened in that manner. I think that Wilson then realized he had made a mistake as he was being overtaken (think George Zimmerman getting his ass handed to him by a 17 year old and freaking out) and had bitten off more than he could chew. So, he used deadly force. I think he then got out and chased down an already bleeding profusely Mike Brown to finish it off. I think Wilson was in a state of panic, anger, and dare I say it, livid that a young black man was being "uppity" and not walking where Wilson told him he had to walk.

I am heartsick over this whole situation. I'm heartsick that people are attempting to justify this murder by trying to turn Mike Brown into anything more than he was - a rebellious and stubborn teenager pushing back against the "you're not a man yet" bullshit that all kids at that age struggle with.

[pipoman]

169. We're not talking about a security guard or private individual

This was a cop. Just a bit if advise....if a cop tells you to stop...stop. If he/she tells you to quit walking in the street...quit walking in the street. If he/she tells you to come here....go. If the cop tells you to turn around with handcuffs in his/her hand...turn around. Anything less can be resisting...if it is wrongful, that can be sorted out later.

Oh, if anyone points a gun at you don't grab it....ffs.

[PsychGrad]

254. Well

I DO follow the orders of police officers. But, because I am a white woman, I don't usually get many orders - they are pretty relaxed around me. Even as a teenager, when I didn't follow their orders and became mouthy - I never got shot at, or even grabbed, or manhandled, or anything. So, you know. But, if a police officer grabbed me by my shirt and arm and started pointing a gun at me and saying "I'll shoot" and I couldn't get away? You bet your fucking ass I would push the gun away from me, or run or something. I'll be damned if I stand there and let someone shoot me point blank for walking in the middle of the street and not "obeying" them just because they are a cop!

[pipoman]

259. Well that would be assuming you were just walking minding your own business

What if instead you had just robbed a store? (I'm thinking you haven't robbed anyone) A reasonable person who had just robbed a store and was confronted by a police officer would expect to be arrested... Issued a lawful order by the police officer, and know they are compounding their crime if they resist.

[PsychGrad]

263. Except

The shop owner who everyone keeps saying was "robbed" says that he was not robbed. That this is why he did NOT call the police. ?

[pipoman]

265. Hind sight....at the moment Wilson only had a description of a robbery suspect

By definition it is his job to arrest/detain the suspect. I've been arrested 4 times with no convictions. Reasonable people don't resist arrest, if the arrest is unjust there will be time to sort that out.

[pipoman]

171. Entirely and completely

If Mr. Brown had not robbed the store, he would likely be alive. If he had responded to orders from a police officer he would likely be alive. What he did is no different than not pulling over with a cop behind you and expecting a good outcome.

[KingCharlemagne]

206. 1) It has not been definitively established that Brown 'robbed the store.' 2) What

'orders' was he supposed to respond to? Since when are police officers allowed to 'order' people around? 3) If the incident went down even remotely like Dorian Johnson describes it, Mike Brown never had a chance.

It is far, far different from a cop pulling up behind a motorist and signalling the motorist to pull over. In this case, Wilson's only signals were to tell Johnson and Brown to "get the fuck on the sidewalk," to reverse his car recklessly almost striking both men, and to yell "What did you (just) say?" without waiting for a resposne before reaching out through the window and grabbing Mike Brown around the neck and by the shirt collar. That ain't like any traffic stop I've ever experienced. But I'm white.

[uponit7771]

242. nah, none of that shit matters.. brown was... well.. brown and big and the cop with a gun

... was sKeered... so ... to some people that means brown had to die...

There are some people who wont be reached

[KingCharlemagne]

256. It does seem that way. I've had some really absurd exchanges since

Monday's release of the Grand Jury decision. It's really depressing, especially since my personal circumstances mean I can't be in Ferguson to support the resistance there. And, just like the masses in St. Louis County, I have a feeling that nothing I say or think really matters in any meaningful sense of having the power to change anything material.

[pipoman]

255. Only the willfully blind

Would deny Mr. Brown, with about 98% odds, robbed the convenience store. Mr. Brown would now be charged with felony robbery of some sort if he weren't dead based solely on the tape.

Police are and have always....always...ordered people around...lawful orders issued by a police officer aren't negotiable in the eyes of the law. I suspect Ferguson has a law about pedestrians in the street, therefore a police officer telling pedestrians to get off the street is a lawful order, as is 'come here' (the exact thing a traffic stop results in), turn around and put your hands on the car, etc. are all lawful orders in this context. Refusal to obey a lawful order isn't going to go well I don't give a shit who you are. Resisting, physical confrontation, fleeing, again aren't going to go well regardless of who you are.

Society needs people to be willing to be cops, like it or not. Society gives their agents latitude and allow for human error by giving a pretty large umbrella of immunity from civil and criminal actions. The line is civil rights violations. What immunity would you require before you are willing to confront criminals?

If there were a few stories of Wilson using unnecessary roughness or racist activities it might be plausible. As it is there isn't a single case of either. ..not a single person has come forward with a single story of racism or abuse. What you are describing isn't behavior consistent with 5 years of daily patrol in a predominantly black community with no stories despite 1,000 investigative reporters all looking for a scoop.

[XemaSab]

257. Dunno how accurate this is

http://mobikefed.org/files/pedtips_pedlaws.pdf

Says pedestrians are NOT allowed to walk in the middle of the road.

[pipoman]

262. Most places with a sidewalk

Don't allow pedestrians to walk in the street.

[KingCharlemagne]

261. I've watched the video numerous times. I've also read Dorian Johnson's

testimony in Volume 4 of the Grand Jury transcripts. It is not clear to me that any robbery took place at all. (Although Dorian Johnson's testimony seems to suggest he thought Mike Brown ha stolen a few single cigarillos, Johnson's testimony also suggests that Mike Brown did not think that he (Mike) had stolen anything.)

We know that some anonymous customer called 9-11 about a robbery and that 2 police cars soon arrived at the Ferguson Market to take a report whence a description matching Mike and Dorian was broadcast. But we also know that the store clerk and manager appeared 'bewildered' when police asked for copies of the surveillance tapes, perhaps because they did not consider that any robbery had taken place.

If it develops that the supposed 'robbery' ended up merely being a squabble over whether Mike needed to show ID proving he was over 18 to obtain tobacco and Mike taking umbrage at such a request, since he was a long-time resident of Canfield and presumably the store mangement knew or should have known he was of age . . . if it turns out that was the source of the squabble, then there really was no robbery -- strong-arm or otherwise -- at all, only a dispute over providing ID.

Although Wilson happens to be white and Brown happened to be black, I don't think this is at heart about 'race' as much as it is about 'abuse of power'. Race was necessary, but not sufficient for that abuse to go down. Thus, it doesn't really matter that there are no other reports of Wilson engaged in racist activities (although his employment record at the corrupt Jennings PD might bear some additional scrutiny). There was one report of Wilson reacting harshly to a resident who sought to video tape him, long before the Brown homicide, so again, his record is not completely unblemished.

You have clearly dismissed Dorian Johnson's testimony outright and I think the readership here deserves to know why (assuming you have read it). What allows you to impeach Johnson's testimony (which damns Wilson unequivocally) while crediting Wilson's fanciful and fantabulous tales?

[pipoman]

264. It really doesn't matter if it happened or not,

The call went out, and Wilson was within his job and the law to detain or arrest a suspect....guilt is irrelevant because he was responding to a call...it is process.

When I don't know either party in a dispute and 'he said, he said' arises....there's no way of knowing who to believe, I am inclined to believe the person with the most credibility. ...that wouldn't be the accomplice in this case.

Again, if Wilson had some history my choice of who to believe may very well change. ..but alas...

[BootinUp]

266. Wilson's credibility and Johnson the "accomplice"

Wilson's credibility is suspect because of how this whole thing went down, but you don't seem to think so. He didn't handle evidence properly, didn't turn in an after incident report, and brutally shot and killed an unarmed 18 year old that was fleeing.

As far as Johnson as an accomplice, I am curious why you choose that terminology. You know that he has not been charged with anything right?

[KingCharlemagne]

267. Now you are directly mis-representing the record. It is not established that

Wilson was 'responding to a call.' In fact, his boss, Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson said that Wilson did not stop Johnson and Brown because of the robbery and did not even know of the robbery. The transcript of dispatch makes it eminently clear that Wilson is NOT responding to a call about the robbery, although he is recorded as asking the responding officers if they needed his assistance.

It is now eminently clear that you have not read Johnson's testimony in the transcript and that, even had you read it, you would not credit it. FWIW, Johnson's account acquires more credibility in my eyes b/c he admits that, from his perspective at least, Mike Brown left the store with merchandise for which he had not paid. IOW, he's not trying to depict Mike Brown as purer than the driven snow. (Note that Johnson's perception that Mike Brown stole the cigarillios does not mean necessarily that Mike Brown actually stole anything, nor does it make Johnson an 'accomplice'.)

Aren't you obligated to believe the person whose account makes the most sense? Credibility, like beauty, rests in the eye of the beholder. But when you hear an account and say "This must be true because it could not have happened any other way," then that is the account to which you should defer, not to the self-serving vainglory of one who uses the deference customarily granted authority to tell his fabulous yarns.

[XemaSab]

268. This is easily googled

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/attorney-dorian-johnson-michael-brown-robbery/14118769/

[uponit7771]

241. 18 of the eye witnesses say browns hands were up 2 said no...

... one of them was a white suppremacist...

Some people don't know how to stay away from bad company...

[HERVEPA]

79. More dumb stuff

[Hissyspit]

218. +1

[Rex]

118. True, but they also have protection from a union and fellow officers to cover for them.

Actually Wilson didn't have to behave like a desperate man...fleeing the crime scene was unnecessary imo. Good point.

[Hekate]

149. Ah yes, Wilson was that desperate man. nt

[LanternWaste]

282. Creative allegation...

Creative allegation...

However, if you examine your allegation rationally, you'll realize that you yourself most likely know many desperate people... who do not want to go to jail... who can be reasoned with.

[rurallib]

2. as someone told me when I was a teenage boy

every teenage boy thinks they are invulnerable - they can't be hurt. Add in all the turbulence that goes with being a teenager - jilted romances, school, pressure from all sides, always wanting to 'prove' yourself, plus many more and you have a very volatile mixture.

I remember going through quite a roller coaster of emotions as a teen. I had a couple of confrontations with police. One was a young cop and he kind of pushed it. The other an older cop who kind of talked me down and we ended the scene with a mutual chuckle.

[Oktober]

3. How do they learn control if everyone is always tip toeing around?

Part of being a grown man is being angry and still keeping your head about you.

[redruddyred]

7. same for being a grown woman too tho.

[Oktober]

30. Absolutely...

I was thinking about this specific instance but you are correct.

[WinkyDink]

8. Exactly. So why didn't the grown-ass ANGRY COP realize this? (See how that works?)

[knitter4democracy]

10. It's not about tip-toeing around. It's about being the adult.

I teach in an alternative high school, and when I don't have a relationship with a student (like at the beginning of a term or in the hallway with someone I have never taught), I keep my voice calm, use repetition, and try humor whenever possible. They usually come around without anything further happening, and if they escalate, it's my job to defuse if possible so that their behavior choices are clear to everyone, including themselves.

Keep in mine, the anger just under the surface is always there and almost always under control. The adults have to help them learn to control it and make the right decisions, but in this situation, the police office didn't act like an adult in the situation.

[adigal]

126. Right...and when the student is calm, we go over alternative ways

They should have handled the situation. We don't bang their heads against a wall. We talk.

[knitter4democracy]

166. Exactly!

In the heat of the moment is not the time to escalate and force young adults to do anything.

[Cooley Hurd]

15. Clearly, the OP isn't talking about "grown men"

The OP is talking about teenagers.

[Oktober]

23. 18 years old...

Man, adult... not a child...

[steve2470]

25. 18 is hardly an adult emotionally

Think back to when you were 18. If you were ultra-mature, good on you ! Most of us were not, myself included.

[Oktober]

27. So-so mature... but not a child...

I was an adult, a young and immature one, and I was responsible for my actions and decisions.

[steve2470]

31. I appreciate your honesty

Unfortunately, people get all legal rights and responsibilities and many of them are not ready for it. I drilled it into my son that he was going to be an ADULT legally. Hopefully he will conduct himself that way, especially with cops.

[Oktober]

35. I hope he does as well...

That's how he becomes an adult though. It is through having that responsibility pushed into him. He'll give it a go, mess up, reset and try again and again.... and again.

If we all waited until we were 'ready' for responsibility, we'd be waiting quite a long time.

[Tsiyu]

55. Not if we all got shot with 12 bullets first for 'acting out'

We wouldn't live to grow into adulthood, would we?

[jtuck004]

138. I think back and I was already in the Navy. Mature enough not to fight with a cop like most people

are at about 12 years old.

Lucky enough not to be executed by a cop, too.

[noiretextatique]

86. teenager

unless you're black. i can't wait to see how you folks age 12 year old Tamir Rice.

[Oktober]

87. I'll take a stab at it...

12...

[noiretextatique]

89. but but but

a 12 year old DEMON!!!!!!

[FLPanhandle]

33. I agree.

18 years olds are in the military.

They go through boot camp. They have a drill sargent yelling at them. They learn to control their emotions like a man.

I've never heard of a drill sargent say "well, I better not escalate the situation since these troops are only 18".

[Oktober]

38. That's the issue I suppose...

It isn't even about being in the military... It's part of being an adult.

The reason they do all of that in boot camp is because those are necessary skills to operating in adverse circumstances. Keep your head about you... Always... Economy of force... If we could get by without expending the resources needed to supply angry drill sergeants, we would.

Children are being emotionally stunted because we (American society) cater to their whims and emotions and every need and then they turn into adults who fold at the first whisper of pressure.

What should happen starting at age 1 starts in their mid 20s when mommy and daddy and teacher and counselor etc.. etc.. aren't there to tell them what a special and awesome person they are... 24/7...

Someone, usually a boss or a bully or someone who doesn't tip toe around, demands something from them and its either time to cry or time to lash out.

[adigal]

127. You either misunderstood me or are purposefully making up what I said

Please go reread.

The military TRAINS you to keep your head. Most teens don't have that. I don't have discipline issues in my class because I pay attention to the small things, and talk to the kids about the big things. Sounds like you would rather I yell and scream at my students, maybe smack them around a it, escalate a situation, just so they can learn to....what??? I see no reason for that to occur. So they can deal with asshole authoritarian figures? You make no sense!

[JaneyVee]

71. And they come out of the military emotionally damaged.

[FLPanhandle]

78. Really?

That'll be news to many of my friends and relatives that served, also to other veterans.

They are all emotionally damaged now? Interesting. I take that back, it's a broad brush assumption that is ignorant.

[Lurks Often]

106. What an absurd, ridiculous statement

aside from being a broad brush attack.

Bases on your statement JFK was emotionally damaged because he served in the military, Jimmy Carter was was emotionally damaged because he served in the military, John Kerry was emotionally damaged because he served in the military, Harry Truman was emotionally damaged because he served in the military, Wesley Clark was emotionally damaged because he served in the military. Need I go on?

[DustyJoe]

119. project much

As one who found himself on a Vietnam battlefield 2-3 months after his 18th birthday, I can only respond Bull[cough]chit.

[hack89]

167. What a stupid thing to say. Nt

[adigal]

125. I never tiptoe around my students and I didn't say that

I said when a kid gets out of control, and most of them do at some point in their teen years, you defuse them. You use humor and talk, and later speak to them about appropriate responses. You don't want to get an upset teen even more upset. I did it a few times early in my teaching career and it never ended well.

[bhikkhu]

244. Self control is setting an example, not tip-toeing around

People learn from example, whether immediately or not. The OP suggests that "keeping your head" is a good thing, while escalating a confrontation is not.

[99Forever]

4. First mistake.

Thinking for one second that the murdering cop wanted to "defuse the situation."

That isn't in assholes like his agenda.

[yeoman6987]

54. It was the first time in 10 years he shot the gun

I am sure he was in situations like this before but didn't use his gun. Something went very wrong in this case for the cop.

[Kingofalldems]

154. Big fan of Wilson too?

All boxes checked.

[B Calm]

6. Part of being a police officer is knowing how

to arrest someone without shooting!

[WinkyDink]

11. And part is to let well enough alone, as in: Two young Black guys walking in the street. Was it a

slow day for Wilson? Was he out of doughnuts? Thinking about his blushing bride-to-be? Needed some DRAMA?

[gwheezie]

20. I never understood why he stopped them

He was looking for a fight. I work with people way more worked up than 2 guys walking down the street. I wouldn't start a power struggle with someone over stupid shit.

[nc4bo]

21. I wonder if MB told DW to go fuck himself....

When DW confronted them WWB?

[treestar]

52. this^^^^^

It did not have to end in death. Like the Trayvon Martin case, it's too extreme. There were several better ways to handle this for the older male involved.

[redruddyred]

9. the problem with this post

is that it functions on the assumption that 18-year-old black guys are inherently violent.
not true in my experience.

[steve2470]

22. With all due respect, I think you're misreading the OP

Mr. Michael Brown, while legally an adult, was only 18 years old. My son is the same age.

18 years old is a teenager, physically and hormonally and mentally. By the time Mr. Brown had reached age 28 (Officer Wilson's age I think), he would have definitely become a young man, barring extreme and unusual circumstances like brain injury.

Almost all teenagers (exceptions to every rule) have not developed anything near mature adult coping skills. Therefore, you have to take that into account when dealing with them. Obviously, Officer Wilson did not care. Mr. Brown is now dead.

I don't see any assumptions about teenage black guys here. I see reality about teenage men in general. I'm not going to argue this point, because my mind is made up. I think the OP is right on target and not racist or incorrect in the least.

[redruddyred]

281. "I see reality about teenage men in general"

that I can get behind.
I wonder what you think of the intersection with male privilege.
for example, steubenville. is that a reflection of teenage men in general? or are those guys criminals? should we make allowances for their poor judgment? etc.
my experience with young guys is that they act like narcissistic idiots, but are generally treated with more respect, despite their behavior.

but back on topic: I was responding to the fact that white girls like myself are often raised to equate black guys with DANGER, while I think the opposite is true. I think this perception of blacks as "the other" is what is behind a lot of this brutality, as well as (part of) the white community's willingness to excuse it.

[adigal]

128. Wow! Totally wrong reading of this.

ALL teens are capable of being overly emotional and many can be volatile. That is what I said.

You need to read more carefully.

[Live and Learn]

141. Wrong, the post correctly stated a scientific fact.

Male brains are not fully developed until about the age of 25. Period.

[redruddyred]

283. maybe they should retain minor status until then.

I'm serious.

[Live and Learn]

286. I wouldn't argue with that. nt

[Lex]

170. Bad comprehension

of the post.

[cali]

12. kids are individuals and I'm sure you treat them as such

and no, the judgment of some 18 year old kids is not "faulty".

[samsingh]

13. which raises the questions - did wilson get what he wanted to do afterall?

he had many choices and Brown was not a threat to anyone.

it sounds like Wilson wanted to show tough he was and he killed Brown in the process.

[HelenWheels]

16. adigal is correct

I worked for 15 years in a juvenile detention institution that housed boys and girls from 10 to 21. I just loved those kids and I guess it showed as I never had trouble with them, The rule is stay calm, talk quietly, never humiliate but be firm.

[gwheezie]

28. Such great kids

Well everyone is young to me but I meet people in very difficult situations doing the best they can. I was talking to one young lady this week who was angry because she thought she was weak and that anger was flying all over the place. When she got calm enough to tell her story. I told her my god you are so string. You are alive. You are fighting. You're still here. This would bring someone else to their knees but you stand up. I told her that anger is stopping her from being crushed down but we have to use that strength so it doesn't wind up with her in trouble. The wall came down with her. Such a strong young lady.

[gwheezie]

17. I tend to agree with you

I've worked with that age group for decades although the fellas I see are usually high or psychotic. They are agitated and not rational when I meet them.
Sometimes when we decide who will intervene it is me who talks to them because I am not challenging them. Although I have excellent male staff with wonderful skills sometimes a little old lady is clearly no threat.
I talk very softly. Address them as sir. Tell them I'm very sorry this is happening and ask them to tell me what's going on so we can resolve the crisis. I don't get angry and I don't let their fear and angry get me escalated. And I sometimes point out I'm an old fat white woman and smoke 2 packs a day and have a bum knee so I don't want to fight them because that would maker stupid. My repeat clients have been calling me grandma Wheezie for years. I treat them fairly. I care what happens to them. I don't lie. Over years I have built up some relationship with them. Unless you lock someone up for life if you work in the community you are going to run up with them again. What happens the next time depends on how you handle the 1st time. One thing I found is a try to have gum or mints on me. I take out a stick of gum for myself and offer one to the client. It's not what they expect and it's not threatening. It sets the tone. The professional has to set the tone of the intervention.

[Smarmie Doofus]

24. Fair enough.

>>>Defuse, use calm talk, humor and be respectful. >>>>>

And what about the grocery store clerk (s)?

[chervilant]

36. And, what about the grocery store clerk?!

According to the chief of police--before the narrative changed so that all were on the same (racist) page--Wilson did NOT know about the alleged robbery. According to the clerk at the store, they did NOT file a police report about Mike Brown.

In short, the grocery store clerk was not an issue when Wilson was assailing Mike and Dorian with "Get the f*** off the street!", at least until he became part of the (racist) excuse.

[Oktober]

40. Brown knew what he had done...

... just minutes before, so to claim that it 'wasn't an issue' is intellectually dishonest.

Is it so unreasonable to think that a person who had just committed a crime is more likely to be reactive than a person who is just walking to work?

[1StrongBlackMan]

61. No, at most ...

from the transcript, wilson knew that there was a shoplifting of some cigars ... he knew nothing about what would later ... much later ... be termed strong-arm robbery.

[Oktober]

65. That's not the point...

The point is that Brown knew about the robbery and battery he had just committed a few minutes ago. He had no way to know if Wilson knew or if he would find out in the course of their interaction.

Someone who just finished committing a crime is likely to be more reactive than someone just going about their business whether the cop knows it or not.

[1StrongBlackMan]

68. Come on ...

wouldn't that suggest that Michael Brown would have been LESS likely to risk prolonging any interaction with law enforcement, i.e., just get out the street when told to?

[alcibiades_mystery]

76. A person who has just committed a crime is more likely to avoid confrontations with police

Particularly seemingly unrelated confrontations. Perhaps your thesis stands if a cop actually seems to be pursuing a suspect in a robbery, but we don't see that at all in this case. We're to believe that somebody fleeing a crime scene actively sought a confrontation with a cop that would otherwise have been avoided. That's patent nonsense.

Johnson's testimony shows Brown's consciousness of "fleeing," when they see the police car race by toward the Ferguson Liquor and Market, and Brown tells Johnson to just walk normally.

Additional points to make:

Even if we bought your counter-intuitive thesis, the seriousness of the crime is a post hoc construction of the police and media. This is not to say that the acts in the store couldn't be construed or charged as a serious crime, but rather that we have no particular evidence that Brown would have seen it that way. Indeed, Johnson seems surprised in his testimony that the police are racing to the scene so quickly. If none of the subsequent events would happened, would the police have actually pursued this as a major felony investigation? Would a DA have charged Brown or sought a conviction for a strong-armed robbery? Unlikely.

[Smarmie Doofus]

198. It was an issue in the sense that it ( the video) established his apparent frame of mind....

... ie. combative and belligerent.... 10 minutes prior to Wilson's encounter w. him.

In other words... he was out of control. Or APPEARS to be.

Doesn't mean he should be shot; it merely lends credence to Wilson's version of events.

I don't see the relevance of whether or not Wilson knew about the robbery. Either Brown attacked him or did not. And if he did , it matters little whether or not it was because he knew ( or thought) he was about to be arrested or he ( Brown) was simply mad at the world.


The guy in the convenience store 10 minutes earlier looks like he was mad at the world.

[uponit7771]

235. So he deserved to die because he pushed a clerk off of him? tia

[FLPanhandle]

29. Disagree.

When I was 17-18, no one ever tip toed around me because my "judgment was faulty".

Hell, I was a bartender at 18 (I guess that dates me), and had to deal with aggressive, insulting people all the time. None of them even had a rule to "never escalate".

I learned to grow up, control my emotions, and how to behave. If everyone treated me like a little undeveloped boy, I don't know when I would have learned to use my mind instead of my emotions.

[steve2470]

34. look at it this way

If a cop like Wilson had treated you, on the street, exactly the same as he treated Brown, how would you have reacted ?

Myself, I would have been absolutely terrified , but then again, my dad drilled respect for the law and cops into me. If you would have handled it well, then that's great. I just think many young men of 18 would react very poorly. That's why parents/guardians have to teach young people that yes, 18 is the adult age and you have to grow up before reaching that age.

[FLPanhandle]

44. I was stopped on occasion by the police as a teen.

You better believe I was nothing but "yes, sir", "no, sir".

Now I'm a dad and see my daughters friends, and I think they would all react well. They may not be a representative sample, but I think most 18 years olds would react well.

I would agree there is a significant minority that wouldn't though.

[steve2470]

45. My recollection is Wilson said "what the fuck are you doing in the street ?" or....

words to that effect. He was very inflammatory. Yea, he's a cop and some cops are like that, unfortunately.

You and I would have handled that ok. Yes sir, no sir, respectful answers. You're right, a significant minority would have said FUCK YOU AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON and cursed out Wilson and/or gotten ready to assault him.

I just think smart cops need to cut the really young adults a break, unless it's something like murder, rape, etc.

[FLPanhandle]

47. Wilson was not a smart cop.

He acted as immature as any teenager.

[steve2470]

48. 100% agree, sir :) nt

[yeoman6987]

60. At 18, I probably would have been apologetic

And immediately got out of the middle of the street. Today 25 years later I could see myself being mouthy a bit more. I have grown more confident over the years. At 18, I know I would not have said a word except sorry officer and moved.

[christx30]

69. Of course, I wouldn't have been walking

in the street. Why would anyone do that? Even at 18, when I was walking to work or whatever, I crossed at crosswalks.
Don't give the cops a reason to talk to you, and you'll be ok.

[steve2470]

70. true

I think that street he was on had very little traffic, I could easily be incorrect.

[christx30]

85. Traffic of no,

my dad always said "That's where the cars go."
If someone were driving on the sidewalk, we'd call them a reckless idiot.

[uponit7771]

236. I was stopped as a teen too... I was scared shitless because I'm black and they beat blacks in MO

... and the surrounding states for breathing..

We used to walk 2 by 2 in my neighborhood for proectection against the bangers and the cops....

[deist99]

223. How?

When he told me to get the f@&$ out of the middle of the street, I would have got the f&$@ out of the middle of the street.

[steve2470]

252. ok good for you, bye nt

[chervilant]

39. No one in this OP

is suggesting that anyone treat you or any other 17-18 yo "like a little undeveloped boy."

(I'm glad you learned "how to behave." I wish you would make better use of your "learned"--and that's learned with two syllables--critical thinking skills...)

[gordianot]

43. You are 100% correct.

I have dealt with far far more volatile situations. The only child I ever feared was 14 years old 5'2" maybe 110 lbs. He had the most severe behavioral emotional disorder I ever encountered and other teams agreed. Daily severe unpredictable unprovoked attacks to your back. He did not respond to behavior modification or medication beyond tranquilizers. Had to be institutionalized and is still in a protected environment 20+ years later.

Next to him an angry unarmed 6'4" 18 year old is a piece of cake.

[adigal]

130. Seems that everyone on this thread who deals with teens agrees

That the best way to handle a teen who gets angry is to defuse. Those who don't work with teens say things like, "How do they learn to behave if you baby them?" Like escalating anyone ever helps a situation.

[Bigmack]

46. Seems like the police actually CAN avoid shooting....

... even with a weapon involved...IF the guy is white.

[randome]

50. Absolutely there is a difference. How will it change? By wishing it to change?

Regardless of an individual police officer's biases and prejudice, the hard, cold fact remains that the best response is, as adigal says, to never, ever escalate the situation.

Both messages need to be repeated ad nauseum: be aware of racial profiling and prejudices and never escalate.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Vattel]

51. Many cops have a strong desire to have others show deference to their authority.

Bare your neck or get bit. That attitude sometimes causes trouble. I don't know what caused the trouble in this case. The eyewitness accounts are conflicting, and no one except Wilson and maybe some of his confidants know what the tussle at the car window was all about. I strongly doubt that Brown charged Wilson, but it is hard to know for sure.

[KingCharlemagne]

67. If one takes the time to reach Dorian Johnson's testimony in

Volume 4 of the transcript, this leaps out at you from the page. That Wilson was used to giving orders to black kids and having those orders immediately obeyed without question, thereby explaining his rage when it appeared to him that Mr. Johnson and Mike Brown were not obeying. Johnson's account has the ring of truth precisely because of its lack of polish.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

104. What really struck me about Dorian Johnson's testimony

is that he had the good sense to be terrified of getting caught for the theft of the cigarillos. (In fact, the ones that M.B. handed over to him he put back.) In his own words he talks about how Michael Brown's actions stunned him. They were so brazen. It's not like he tried to sneak out with a beer, or a candy bar, or one or two cigarillos. He brazenly took them, then bullied the store owner.

What in the hell was in Brown's mind that day?

I'm having a hard time believing that a cop who NEVER had shot his gun before, would escalate this situation on his own. It took two to tango, I'm afraid, and the law is on the cop's side.

Do I believe Michael Brown should have been judged guilty and sentenced to death for shoplifting? Hell, no. But something was wrong in that kid's mind that morning, and he is partially responsible for his death.

[KingCharlemagne]

124. A fair-minded reading of Johnson's testimony suggests that he himself thought

Mike Brown had walked out with merchandise he had not paid for. But in describing Mike Brown's reaction to Johnson's own discomfort, Johnson suggests that Brown had little 'consciousness of guilt' or even awareness that he had done anything amiss. As for whether Mike Brown 'bullied' the store owner, Johnson's testimony does not support it and the video is ambiguous as to who is doing what to whom (and, equally or even more important, why).

My feeling reading Johnson's testimony is that Wilson told the two to get out of the street, heard Johnson say they would shortly, drove off, then looked in his rearview mirror, saw that they were still in the street, i.e., disobeying his command, and reversed his car to confront the two over their insubordination. So when Wilson reverses his car recklessly, almost hitting the two, he says "What did you (just) say?" The ADA seemed confused by this and allowed herself to get derailed into asking Johnson whether Mike had said anything. And Johnson seems equally bewildered repeatedly averring that Brown had said nothing. The ADA wanted Johnson to comment on the literal meaning of Wilson's question. But what the ADA and the grand jurors should have asked is whether Wilson was asking that question hostilely, as in "I told you to get out of the street and you said you would. Now I see you're still in the street, so what did you JUST say (and why aren't you obeying my commands)"?

IOW, I take a far more benign view of Brown's actions and mindset that morning and a far more malign view of what was going through Wilson's head.

[XemaSab]

142. So you think Brown had no conscience?

Wow. Just wow.

[Live and Learn]

144. Nobody knows what Brown was thinking about the store incident.

The video shows him talking to the cashier. Did he try to purchase the items and was not allowed to? Perhaps he didn't feel he did anything wrong.

A trial would have gone a long way to answer these questions but we didn't get that.

[XemaSab]

145. Who would have been on trial?

Not Brown.

[Live and Learn]

148. No, not Brown after he was killed.

But it might have come out at a trial for Wilson. Perhaps it still will during a civil suit.

One thing is for certain, since there was no trial for Brown, he must be considered innocent and people here should quit using the alleged incident as any reason for Wilson shooting him.

It appears the store clerk in the incident didn't even view the incident as worthy of calling the police. Although, that could be because the clerk didn't like to deal with the police either. I know I wouldn't want to deal with them over such a small incident.

[KingCharlemagne]

203. Do you make a practice of erecting straw men? Saying that Johnson's testimony

suggests that Brown showed no 'consciousness of guilt' about this particular incident is a far cry from saying that Brown 'had no conscience'. Johnson made it sound like Brown's actions suggested Brown didn't think what happened in the store was a big deal. But that was Johnson's perceptions of the incident, not anyone else's.

For all any of us know, Brown ran a tab at the store or had made other payment arrangements with its management. (Johnson testified that Brown had lived at the complex far longer than Johnson himself had.)

Frankly, I think you owe me an apology for suggesting that I think Brown had no conscience when, in describing Johnson's testimony, I made no such representation of my own views whatsoever. Your comment is therefore very dirty pool.

[XemaSab]

215. I owe you no such apology

n/t

[Vattel]

132. I agree that it would not be strange at all for a police officer to obnoxiously bark out orders

and then escalate when the orders aren't immediately followed preferably with a deferential "yessir" thrown in. I am not sure if Johnson is telling the truth, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if he is.

[Live and Learn]

146. I think the language officers use today is abhorrent and

I do not understand why it is tolerated. In no other occupation are you allowed to curse at people. Officers should not be allowed to speak that way to anyone.

Perhaps maintaining civil discourse would also prevent them from escalating to violence so quickly.

[Vattel]

227. amen

[Socal31]

273. If only people knew how Deputies treat County inmates.

In Prison, the guards get along with the inmates because they will be stabbed if they are disrespectful.

But in County, it's flat out insanity. Let's just say you would love if salty language was the worst thing that could be directed at you.

I don't buy the "only 18 cut him slack" nonsense. If you get aggressive with a cop, you will lose. Every time.

I think there is a lot of intellectual dishonesty on all sides of this one. The people who minimize and rationalize the robbery at the store, and subsequent battery on Wilson in the car, lose all credibility.

On the other side, anyone who acts as if Wilson had no other options after the initial shots in the car, watches too many bad cop dramas. There was absolutely no reason to chase him with anything other than a billy club or tazer at this point knowing he was unarmed and injured.

[uponit7771]

247. What's not conflicting is 18 of the 20 eye witness's say Brown had his hands up...

... of the 2 that differed one was a racist

[Jim__]

57. Wilson was a trained adult cop, but how was he trained?

Was he trained to defuse situations, or to aggressively take control of situations? It seems like cops are trained to aggressively take control of situations.

[bhikkhu]

58. Number one rule of cops, from what I understand, is "control the situation"

which means immediate escalation, assertion of authority and unnecessary force. While I think most cops are good, the training and the culture has some serious defects.

You're spot-on - Wilson behaved like an 18 year old himself rather than the "adult" in the situation. Perhaps he was scared shitless, but that may go back to lousy training - an asshole with a gun and a badge, lacking the mental skills to apply them for the purpose.

[Brigid]

72. I may be stepping into it here, but here goes . . .

Why is it that these horrific incidents so rarely seem to involve female cops? Are they generally better at de-escalating? Do they just seem less threatening? Are they less likely to be looking for a fight? I have even heard that some male cops actually prefer a female partner for these reasons. On "Law & Order SVU", I have seen Benson stop the more aggressive Stabler from getting into fights with suspects more than once. And I have seen her deal with situations where he was not present that would have led to big trouble if he had been the one who was there alone. I wonder if it works the same way in real life.

[steve2470]

75. as a man but not a cop....

*some* men have issues with power, authority, control, being "top dog", etc etc

I think Wilson is one of those. Many men grow out of those issues. Big difference between age 28 (Wilson's age) and age 48, for example.

[Lurks Often]

102. An interesting question

Police in general are trained to take charge and assert their authority at the beginning, an approach that works far more often then not.

I think, to a degree, it is something hardwired into our genes. If you accept the premise of the "Alpha" male or Type A personality, when two males who both view themselves as "Alpha" interact negatively, there is always friction and the tendency of both to try and assert themselves over the other, which can lead to a circle of escalation. I believe that also applies on female on female interaction.

It is when it becomes a male on female interaction, that the tendency to assert oneself becomes short circuited (to a degree). The other part is that the female officer knows that the vast majority of the time she is physically weaker then the average male she is likely to encounter in the performance of her duties. So without the "Alpha" male vs male dynamic driving the encounter, it is likely both are less inclined to be aggressive and things are less like to escalate.

As to the idea that Brown would be alive today if the responding officer had been female, that is a big maybe, if Brown had behaved as alleged toward a female officer, she would likely have shot him as well and the story would probably never had made to the national level.

And please stop thinking that police procedurals on TV, however well done, are an accurate reflection of what real police go through.

[Live and Learn]

274. Not stepping in it at all. It has been shown that women officers are

much better at deescalating situations and many forces actively recruit women because of it.

[truth2power]

77. adigal..I wish I could rec your post more than once. You are absolutely correct

in your advice concerning adolescents.

I also work with adolescents. They are a joy to work with. Really! But it's important to understand that their brains are not finished.

In general, the amygdala, part of the limbic system of the brain, is not fully functional until early adulthood, some time around the early 20's. Adolescents' ability to see the consequences of their actions is not fully developed; nor is their ability to accurately perceive and interpret the emotions of others.

The advice you have offered for interacting with adolescents is true - defuse, use calm talk, humor (when appropriate), and be respectful. I would add one more...be matter-of-fact in the words you use when talking to them. It's been my experience that anyone who escalates an encounter with an adolescent will rue the day.

Darren Wilson is a racist bully. As such, when encountering Michael Brown he possessed no people-skills whatsoever, other than to beat Michael senseless (or dead), either with words or actions. He then, IMO, made up a narrative out of whole cloth to mask his guilt. He should never have been accepted onto the force, never mind let loose on the street with a firearm.

As a society, it's time we understood that "policing" involves more than beating or killing. Junk the MRAPs and other military materiel and use the money saved to train potential officers in human development and a basic understanding of various mental illnesses.

Policing with a human face. Imagine that!

[adigal]

133. Thank you for at excellent explanation! Maybe people will understand

Just how poorly Wilson handled this.

[Live and Learn]

150. +1 nt

[Arkansas Granny]

82. This mother of 3 former teen boys (now adults) agrees.

Respect is a big part of the equation. To get respect you have to show respect.

[Cleita]

93. I have always found that treating them with respect and talking to them like they were adults

worked. I had to supervise a gaggle of high school age boys every winter for awhile at a tourist attraction. The boys actually asked the owners to bring me and my husband back every winter because they liked us. The other supervisors tended to put them down and treat them like naughty children. Their parents treated them like twelve year olds, but they were on the verge of adulthood and resented it. I actually was able to get them to work for me by talking to them in with the same respect I did the adult workers under my supervision. The owner/operator once complimented my husband and me for being able to handle the boys and run a happy workplace.

[liberalmuse]

94. It saddens me...

that some people in this country are actually trying to justify a cop shooting an unarmed teen for initially doing nothing more but jaywalking. And no, he did not know about the store confrontation when he pumped 12 bullets into that kid. Is this what we want? Excessively violent public servants? It's not okay. Michael Brown and thousands like him did not need to die or become maimed by people who lack the judgement and the will to de-escalate. There are people out there itching to use their guns and you can often hear these very same people using de-humanizing words about entire groups of citizens (or non-citizens).

[Historic NY]

97. Verbal judo the art of conflict defusion using words....

The 5 universal truths of human interaction

Dr. George Thompson explains the five universal truths of human interaction which remain true across the board, regardless of cultural background, gender, etc.

1) People feel the need to be respected
2) People would rather be asked than be told
3) People have a desire to know why
4) People prefer to have options over threats
5) People want to have a second chance

http://www.verbaljudo.com/

Does it work all the time no, but usually it keeps thing from escalating. I learn it way back in the 70's. It was taught back then.

[tblue37]

98. He didn't *want* to de-escalate. He's a bully and a racist, and he

was itching for an excuse to use force and to arrest those young men for walking around being black in broad daylight, as though they had a right to breathe the same air that *he* was breathing.

[R B Garr]

103. Excellent post. Teens are also very dangerously prone to peer

pressure and all the illogical things that might entail. Who can't remember feeling pressure to smoke a cigarette and how cool that made you feel. Some of us escaped the smoking phase, but there were other pressures in its place.

Wilson's ego was what caused this incident. He wasn't going to let some uppity folks by without bowing down to him. If he assessed Brown as being such a hulk so quickly, why didn't he call for back-up. Call for back-up! Tell every other cop you are in a dangerous situation and call for back-up. But Wilson obviously didn't want to do that because he wanted to teach the younguns' a lesson on his own and couldn't justify calling for back-up just to put an uppity teenager in his place.

[NYC_SKP]

109. Same here, years with at-risk youth teaches one a LOT about themselves and humanity.

Defuse, for sure.

Never ever (as cops often do) set up a challenge, a power battle, but instead relax and breathe and most of all, LISTEN.

I worked with some assholes and could tell the outcome before the battle even started:

Uh oh, Ms. Jameson is upset with Lisa, called her over. Uh oh, ordered Lisa to sit down, she's not going to sit down, she's upset.

Uh oh, now it's a "do it or you're suspended" thing. Oh God. Please, Ms. J, find other work.

Day in day out.

I'm certain this was like that, an authority fucker insisting on compliance instead of being the public servant and peace officer.

Such as these should really be thrown into prisons for a spell, I kid you not.

Thanks for being out there, adigal!

[War Horse]

110. Well written

I was a bouncer for several years, and I've dealt with more "immortal" 18 year olds than I care to count. Drunk and/or on drugs most of the time. A pretty potent combination when they think they are adults who know everything, yet haven't even fully developed their brains yet. It's pretty amazing that one of the central things that I, as a bouncer, was taught was to deescalate whenever possible. Yet some (not all, mind you) PDs seem to teach the exact opposite, given recent (as well as not so recent, I suppose) events...

[Moostache]

111. To the its OK to shoot the 18-yr old because he is a "man" crowd, one question...

If 18 is the age of being an adult, then why do people have to be 21 to drink, 25 to rent a car?

http://traveltips.usatoday.com/age-requirement-rent-car-62294.html
http://www.budget.com/budgetWeb/html/en/common/agePopUp.html

Think about it, if actuary tables and insurance companies determine that a suitable age to risk renting an automobile - without additional financial consideration - to someone over the age of 25, what does that tell you about the assumption that 18 is a magical cut-off to be considered fully matured? Its arbitrary and totally besides the point.

Jay-walking is a misdemeanor.
Shoplifting less than $50 is a misdemeanor.
Insolence and disrespect are NOT CRIMES - maybe impolite, but NOT CRIMINAL.

NONE of those minor infractions carry a death sentence.
NOR DOES ASSAULT ON A POLICE OFFICER.

I do not care that Murderer Wilson got punched in the mouth, that did not give him a "reasonable" fear for his life.

His testimony was bullshit from start to finish and he should have had to tell that story on a witness stand with cross-examination, not to a grand jury with a preface from the prosecutor. It was coached and calculated to give MAXIMUM credence to the idea that Wilson feared for his life at the hands of the Hulk Hogan-esque, demonic looking angry black man.

He actually said that he was afraid another punch to the face was going to kill him...this is the hallmark of a person who is too steeped in movies, myths and pop culture to carry a badge and a gun. His racist descriptions meant to portray Brown as an animal, not a human being and certainly not one worth dignity or respect, was all I needed to see to confirm that.

Wilson is a racist. He is also a coward that should never again be allowed to carry a badge and a gun. Its too late for him to be tried fairly for his crimes, but its not too late to ensure that he is never again allowed to be in such a position in the future.

[steve2470]

113. excellent points about age nt

[Live and Learn]

151. +1 nt

[Rex]

116. Yes but cops don't work that way. Their entire job is to force a person into submission.

And they will escalate all the way up to using deadly force.

[heaven05]

123. some of the comments in this thread

Last edited Sat Nov 29, 2014, 03:41 PM - Edit history (2)

blaming Michael Brown for his own "due process" execution are truly disheartening coming from liberals and progressives, so called. Same thing with Trayvon Martin, the John Crawford Cincinnati walmart case and Tamir Rice. All have been judged on here to be responsible for their own death because they did not show enough deference, in two cases, to bigoted white authority. The other two were immediate execution by white authority figures. Modern day lynchings and many out there are having a field day doing the lynching. Defuse is great when the 'authority's' don't go in with guns blazing.

[indivisibleman]

134. I completely agree

This sort of talk about "not showing enough deference" is a common theme among right wingers regarding this case.

[heaven05]

136. of course

among bigots/racists on the RW side and racism enablers on the left, that's the bottom line. Black people "don't know their place". It has always been that way and is the racists big problem that black people will stand up and demand to be treated as a human being and not some kind of chattel or inferior because of the color of their skin. Thank you for that.

[indivisibleman]

249. You just reminded me of something.

My mother never really ever sat me down to teach me about anything and I have often criticized her for it. But I remember her sitting me down once to set me straight when I was 10 years old. (I'm white) It was the late 60s and I had seen a show that blamed blacks for problems in America and she said, "don't you ever think that Negroes are the cause of these problems nor that they are of any less value than anyone else." She was very stern about it. If you get one lesson in life I guess that is a pretty good one to get!

[heaven05]

278. damn good one

and bless your mother.

[indivisibleman]

280. thank you. and

Her mother taught the same thing believe it or not. Nice to come from a smart family.

[Live and Learn]

152. +1 But I am also heartened to see so many that do understand the injustice

of the situation. I just wonder how many more killings we will have to suffer through before enough get it to do something about it. I believe the time is coming.

[heaven05]

158. I am glad to see the

critically analytical on this side of justice, here also. It does give me a measure of hope. Keep believing, it may come one day but until then I am sure we'll all be witnesses to more state sanctioned lynchings of unarmed and innocent people, usually male, of color.

[uponit7771]

243. +1

[brer cat]

139. I see several comments about how police are trained and subsequently become bullies.

Has anyone here been through the training? I spoke this week with a woman who was a LEO in Atlanta for many years. She brought up the Michael Brown shooting and said she wished she could have asked some questions of Wilson. First, she said that during her time at the academy, rule #1 was to use the LEAST possible force. Also stressed constantly was DO NOT escalate, followed by DO NOT go it alone if the situation is getting out of hand...always call for backup and wait until they arrive. I would guess that she is in her 50's so she would have been trained some time before Wilson. Maybe training has changed during that time, but clearly Michael Brown would be alive today if Wilson had followed the training this former LEO had.

She also brought up the number of shots fired and said she could not get her mind around that...how in the world could he shoot that many times at someone not firing back at him.

If LEOs are currently being trained in a manner that would lead to "take control at all costs" mentality, maybe that is a way Holder and DOJ could help in the future. Some overhaul of the training programs might make a difference some day. That assumes training can penetrate a brain like Wilson's, which might be a stretch, but I try to be an optimist.

[Live and Learn]

153. One only need watch the cop or prison shows (if one can stomach it) to see that

bullying behavior has become the norm. There have also been more than a few whistle-blowers that have come out to document the culture. It may not occur during the academy training but it surely happens during the on the job training.

[brer cat]

172. I don't watch those shows.

I live in a very small town where the LEOs are friendly and helpful, and I am a white female of a "certain" age so even out of my town, I am addressed as "ma'am" and treated respectfully. I am very curious how much is horrendously bad training and how much is due to total assholes getting on the force and not being weeded out. If you are right (and I don't doubt that you are) then Holder and DOJ could do a world of good if some type of standardized training could be implemented, and also requirements that independent investigators be brought in when there has been a questionable shooting or other abuse. I have no idea how that would work legally.

I appreciate your response.

[Live and Learn]

176. Check out the actual recruiting video on this post to see

where the problem arises.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5886940

[mike dub]

182. Great comment and info, brer cat

If I may, I'd like to add to the points mentioned by the woman you talked to, who was a LEO in Atlanta for many years...

I recently watched the entire series of "Da Ali G. Show", an HBO series starring Sacha Baron Cohen. In one episode, he goes on a ride along /training run with a Philadelphia, PA police captain. During a traffic stop in which a driver is ordered out of his car, Baron-Cohen immediately rushes toward the driver, but the police captain yells out, advising Baron-Cohen to "Keep his distance" from the driver. I think LEO's, at least back in the day, were also taught to not-escalate, by keeping their distance from citizens they encountered in what could be considered an escalating situation.

I am Not an LEO, but as a viewer of this video entertainment I noted that an LEO captain made it clear that keeping distance (e.g. not driving one's police cruiser into someone's path Twice or otherwise closing in close on-foot) is another tactic toward not escalating a situation (or at least, allowing a law enforcement officer to better assess the situation from slightly further away than Wilson did).

Just sticks out in my mind, considering the tragedy of Michael Brown's murder at the hands of Darren Wilson.

Best
Mike

[brer cat]

186. Yep, that is the thing I keep coming back to.

Just about everything Wilson did goes against what I have always assumed was proper protocol. The lady I talked to certainly reinforced my view, but as I said, I don't know if times have changed that much in recent years. Wilson is an asshole and no doubt has major problems including racism, but we all know idiots like that. What bothers me more, is everyone in authority just taking his account of events and NO ONE seems to have said, hold it...he made some mistakes...we just don't do things that way. Even if they weren't willing to hang him for killing Brown, it seems they would have wanted the record clear that he didn't follow proper procedures. Because now we are left with the conclusion that in Ferguson, and possibly all of St. Louis area, it is open season on anyone who makes a LEO unhappy for any reason. I can't understand anyone in authority allowing that conclusion to be drawn.

Thanks for your input, Mike.

[LongTomH]

143. Wilson was SUPPOSEDLY an adult, who SHOULD HAVE BEEN trained to defuse a situation!

Obviously, he was neither emotionally mature or properly trained!

[Mike Nelson]

155. De-escalate is great advice!

...not sure about your "brains of 18 year olds" being undeveloped, though. Everyone can escalate, at any age, I think.

[Live and Learn]

163. It is a scientific fact and is freely available with a minimal google search.

Here is just one article to help you out:

Understanding the Teen Brain

It doesn’t matter how smart your teen is or how well he or she scored on the SAT or ACT. Good judgment isn’t something he or she can excel in, at least not yet.

The rational part of a teen’s brain isn’t fully developed and won’t be until he or she is 25 years old or so.

In fact, recent research has found that adult and teen brains work differently. Adults think with the prefrontal cortex, the brain’s rational part, but teens process information with the amygdala, the emotional part. And it’s the prefrontal cortex that responds to situations with good judgment and an awareness of long-term consequences.

The connections between the emotional part of the brain and the decision-making center are in development in teen brains. That’s why when they’ve been under the influence of overwhelming emotional input, teens can’t explain later what they were thinking. They weren’t thinking as much as they were feeling.

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

[Mike Nelson]

213. I think that may be true...

...I would advise: de-escalate in every case and not just with people who looked like young teenagers (or, under 18; or, under 25). Probably drug use has a greater effect than age. Agitated people are not using their brains!

[Live and Learn]

216. I can agree with that. nt

[bobGandolf]

161. Wiser words have not been spoken! n/t

[99th_Monkey]

164. Exactly, Wilson was supposed to be (and hired & paid to be) the proverbial "adult in the room"

but no, by his own admission, he reacted and behaved like a child in a struggle with Hulk Hogan.

[ReRe]

165. It's definitely a mind-set...

... the "shoot and ask questions later," which many cops use. There may be a difference in the way older more experienced cops think/react and the younger cops who grew up on violent video games. Do you think that might be the reason there are more cases of "quick-draw-McGraw" now-a-days, adigal?

[LostInAnomie]

179. Wait a second...

Brown had just committed strong armed robbery. He punched a cop and allegedly wrestled him for his gun. He then attempted escape.

How much humor and respect do you think it would have taken to get a violent man to willingly be arrested and face prison for all those crimes?

[XemaSab]

181. Even IF that is true

You think they're going to send him to prison for stealing $50 worth of cigars?

They'd plead it down to a misdemeanor and he'd get community service. Probably wouldn't even see the inside of a jail cell.

[LostInAnomie]

183. They probably would for the assault in commission of the robbery.

They definitely would for punching a cop and wrestling for his gun.

[XemaSab]

184. I'm talking about just the cigars

The idea that Brown freaked out because he didn't want to go to prison is really, really, really doubtful.

[LostInAnomie]

185. So, he was just in the mood to punch a cop?

Do you think he forgot that he just assaulted an old man that was trying to prevent him from robbing a store?

[adigal]

207. Wilson didnt know that when he stopped Brown

He just saw some black "thug" walking I the street and started yelling at them. He could have been polite.

[LostInAnomie]

226. Yeah, he kind of did.

He had literally just heard a description of the robbery suspects over the radio five minutes before he called for backup.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown

How do you know what Wilson said to Brown?

[uponit7771]

238. No ... he kind of didn't... they changed the story after the police chief said he didn't

.. know of it..

But please continue...

There's only a faction of people defending the overt oppressive FPD and their ilk

[LostInAnomie]

245. There is a radio recording of him asking if they need help searching...

... for the suspects and was told they had disappeared at 12:00pm. Literally, one minute later he came upon Brown and Johnson. He called for backup at 12:02pm after realizing they matched the description.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown

It's all in the link. The facts, simply, do not support your views.

[BootinUp]

246. The question is which revision of the facts are we supposed to buy?

[LostInAnomie]

248. What revision of facts?

This is physical evidence. There are physical recordings of this taking place. There is no question to the fact that Wilson was aware for the physical description of the person that had robbed the convenience store. He literally asked to help look for the suspects.

If the chief stated to the contrary he was mistaken.

[BootinUp]

251. Wilson has been working on this story that much we know

There is no statement from after the incident that was written down or recorded, again we have to take his word that he knew the description and the fact they had a box of cigarillos. One thing that is fascinating is he even says in his testimony that he was busy and didn't hear the whole report. And yeah sure the chief just spoke out of his ass.




In testimony released Monday, Wilson told the grand jury that while on a call about a sick baby, he heard on his portable radio a report of a "stealing in progress" from a local store on West Florissant Avenue. He said he did not hear the entire call, but "did hear that a suspect was wearing a black shirt and that a box of cigarillos was stolen." He said he did not plan to respond to that call as two other officers were on it.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/11/25/366519644/ferguson-docs-officer-darren-wilsons-testimony

[R B Garr]

253. Exactly, and notice none of that is in a police report which

could have been filed at the time of the incident, but it wasn't completed. How odd. The Ferguson police said the report was disregarded because Wilson had to be seen by a physician because of injuries, but there were no injuries.

A pattern emerges.

[uponit7771]

237. You skipped the part were Wilson didn't know of the robberty and back up his car into two teens

... but go ahead... I've seen these justifications before to make people feel better...

They're just not rooted in reality

[JDPriestly]

188. Goes for kids of all ages and colors.

We were just discussing that at lunch with our children who are young parents. That is the universal rule.

People who accept the authority and responsibility that police officers have should be trained to work with people. Most of our police are not.

[TBF]

190. Agreed -

I worked with adolescents in a short-term psychiatric facility at one point. Same thing there. Not only calm, defuse, but also back away & get some help if you think someone may escalate (you may need people to help with restraining & then medicating if someone is actually very violent and/or having a psychotic episode).

Wilson should have had that sort of training and remained in his car to wait for backup. No reason he had to start anything - could've just followed the guy until he had another cop come by - especially if he was convinced that this was a robbery suspect who could potentially be armed. Instead, he was rash.

[R B Garr]

201. Excellent! And the reason Wilson didn't call for back-up was probably

because his engagement with Brown in the manner he initiated it was probably not legitimate or urgent enough to warrant calling for help. His ego seems to be the motivating factor for the initial contact and he had no way to convey that professionally.

[Locrian]

217. Defuse, use calm talk, humor and be respectful.

Exactly.

And exactly how the police are NOT taught.

It also requires confidence, strength (mentally), empathy etc. All NOT taught or valued in a dominator / power / authority structure.

The reliance on overwhelming force, power, superior weaponry, etc is what is "taught" - all the more due to the militarization of the police further creating a war zone.

Don't get me wrong - you're completely correct. We need to focus on a radical change from the current focus.

[N.Y. to Paris]

233. My brothers....I must speak....

This idea could totally suck OR it just might work....if I was Warren Buffett I'd be implementing it right now....you see, what the black men in America COULD consider is THIS....what if you guys ALL started thinking in terms of the Cotton Club....not the violence, the ATTIRE! Start plotting and scheming about looking good....wear suits! Yeah, they're a bit much but you know, get yourself a Flag Pin or two, ( They're cheap, made in China of course, keep it classy US ) Get some nice ties, good looking shirts....etc. put the hoodies and the low hanging jeans in the drawer for awhile.....I have the feeling it would truly confuse the shit out of "whitey", who knows? The white race really gets quite impressed when a man has a shirt and tie on....Hey! It worked for OJ! Good luck!

[TBF]

234. Oh my - another one. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

260. You care about helping teens. Not all cops do. Therein lies the difference.

[defacto7]

272. Not that it's needed but

K & R

[Enthusiast]

275. We cannot expect law enforcement to exercise good judgment.

Apparently.

[ancianita]

276. Absolutely right. That same rule was how my fellow high school colleagues dealt with teens. It works

because teens need to be heard, understood and trusted.