"A letter to … the girl who accused me of rape when I was 15"

[sibelian]

It was entirely mute apart from the simple, but essential, “Do you want to … ?” and “Yes.”

We parted with closed-mouth kisses and I returned to my mattress to sleep.

I woke up being shaken by my friend’s father and two policemen. They were telling me to get dressed and come with them. I didn’t have a clue what was going on.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/nov/29/letter-to-girl-accused-me-of-rape?CMP=fb_gu

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. That is heartbreaking...

...and my biggest fear as the mother of a teenaged boy.

[joeglow3]

3. I have three boys

While reading this, all if could think about was what if this happened to one of them.

[seabeyond]

6. Having two sons, we have had discussions about this, yet I have never feared

Last edited Sun Nov 30, 2014, 11:13 AM - Edit history (1)

This with my boys. Ever. Just not something up there on the list with them.

Heart broken is about top of the list. Car wreck. Fight with other young men.

Never have I feared false rape claims. The odds are just not there.

[ScreamingMeemie]

44. Because it happened to my husband, I have an (perhaps) irrational fear it

will happen to our son.

My intent in my response was pure.

[seabeyond]

45. I hear ya.

I wasn't challenging your intent and I too was being sincere. Your comment was just the first I read, with two sons it had me think. Hence posting what I did.

We gave certainly had conversation about this and so much more but I really am not at all fearful. I can say, in all my life and all the boys and men I know, i do not personally know one man/boy that experienced this.

Tgat allows a comfort level of not being on my list.

[Bettie]

91. I have the same fears you do

Fake rape claims are not the norm as some seem to think.

However, articles like this one tend to keep women from reporting rapes, which appears to be the intent.

[seabeyond]

99. this is the thing. to report a rape, a girl is given shame, humiliation, and more. more than any

crime, to report a rape brings back so much pain to the victim. it makes absolutely no sense to suggest our girls would just frivolously claim rape when it isnt. there is NOTHING in it for her. more so, than any other crime.

[Bettie]

102. I think some also forget that the vast majority of rape cases

never result in a conviction. Only about 3 of 100 even go to prison (if I'm recalling the statistic correctly).

And yeah, once you report a rape, you (the victim) are on trial. Every moment of your life is under a microscope.

Did you flirt with that man? You asked for it.

Did you wear a short skirt? Low cut top? Well, what did you expect?

Didn't fight back? Come on, you know you wanted it!

False allegations are made from time to time, but it isn't so widespread as to negate all the actual rapes that are not reported due to fear and humiliation.

A woman who reports a rape is generally branded a slut and told she's at fault for being victimized. There is no up side there.

[seabeyond]

103. exactly. and for anyone to be ok, with a 13 yr old sleep over with booze, in this situation.

the adults failed. as a parent, i cannot fathom putting kids in this position.

[FreakinDJ]

56. I've raised 3 boys

I am just aghast at how the laws are interpreted that all young men are perps

[seabeyond]

100. really? about three to four percent of rapes actually acquire prison time. across the nation,

reported rapes are being ignored, put in a drawer, rape kits left on shelves.

yet, you are AGHAST that laws interpret all males are rapists?

even with video, taken and distributed on line for the entertainment of men, we cannot get the police to act.

[FreakinDJ]

161. Those "Stats" only hold true if you reinterpret the definition of "Rape"

And other then trolling for an argument would you jump on a response made to some one else

[uppityperson]

165. What definition of "rape" do you mean? I am confused by what you mean, if you'd

clarify, I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

[geek tragedy]

175. Are we back to "legitimate rape" semantic games? nt

[hfojvt]

181. not sure about the definition

but the breakdown is here

https://rainn.org/news-room/97-of-every-100-rapists-receive-no-punishment

A big part of it is the 54% that do NOT get reported.

Of those that ARE reported, according to these stats

over 25% lead to an arrest.
75% of those arrested are taken to trial
and over 50% of those who goto trial, are convicted.
Then only 60% of those convicted goto jail

But for the title to say "receive no punishment" means that we need to believe

1) it is not a big deal to be arrested and questioned by the police
2) it is not a big deal to face a trial, and pay for a lawyer
3) it is not a big deal to face a trial, pay for a lawyer and get convicted and pay a fine, and go on probation.

All of those seem, to me, a little more harsh than a root canal. Something most people like to avoid.

Not as bad as going to prison, of course, but hardly a walk in the park and a jolly good time.

The 25% number is the smallest of the group. But the question is not answered there - why only 25%?

[olddots]

2. interesting piece

I supose there are very , very very rare cases like this but what is point of this OP ?

[bluesbassman]

5. Not so rare. What do you think the point of the OP is?

Seems to me it's saying that victims of false rape allegations suffer similar trauma as victims of rape.

Is that not a worthy topic for discussion in your opinion?

[Gormy Cuss]

180. It's not at all clear that the OP was an instance of a false rape allegation.

Missing from the OP tale is the geography of the event. It's very rare for age of consent to be under age 14. Thus it's highly like that the girl could not give consent legally, regardless of the words that came out of her mouth. Rather than focusing on her, likely a statutory rape victim under local law, the author of the OP link should be condemning statutes that don't have a Romeo and Juliet exception.

[Chipala]

21. Its not that rare

Whats rare are when they are proven to be false like the Duke Lacrosse case. I had a false rape claim but it was so unbelievable and ill timed I was never charged. I have also been arrested for something I didnt do. If you would have mixed both of those incidents it would have been horrific so I can relate to the OP. Family court, alimony and child support turned are like nitric oxide to false allegations of many sorts with rape being but one.

[geek tragedy]

22. So you think women are a bunch of liars who

try to persecute men through false claims of paternity and rape to swindle them out of money?

[MadDAsHell]

55. Nice straw man...

I'm glad to see they didn't dignify your post with a response...

[geek tragedy]

68. The complaint about child support was a dead giveaway.

Like wearing a "Hello: My Name is Men's Rights Advocate."

[MadDAsHell]

104. I'm not sure I agree with the position you're taking on this issue...

Are you basically saying that false rape accusations (especially where they've been proven false) must be suppressed because 1) they're extremely rare and 2) even one proven false rape accusation casts doubt on all other allegations and that's hurtful to the cause of stopping sexual violence?

We hopefully all agree that sexual violence is a massive problem, but ignoring the very real plight of individuals that are falsely accused (however rare it is) simply because it doesn't fit your narrative, or you view it as hurtful to your cause, is pretty sick and twisted.

By your logic epidermolysis bullosa, whose pedatric victims are informally referred to as "butterfly children" because they live their often short lives in extreme pain due to skin fragility, should be ignored because "it's extremely rare" as maybe only 1 in 20,000 children are born with it. It doesn't need any funding, no sympathy for its victims, etc., because it doesn't affect very many people, and especially should be ignored because it doesn't affect YOU.

Or we should ignore cases like Michael Brown because out of the millions (maybe billions) of law enforcement officer-citizen encounters in a year, only 400 result in an officer killing that citizen. Too rare to necessitate any action right?

[geek tragedy]

107. As I said to someone else, it's like shark attacks.

Something to be prevented and deadly serious when it happens, but a minor problem in relative terms.

It would be like every time overfishing and shark-finning is mentioned, some people would bring up shark attacks.

[MadDAsHell]

116. But you didn't take the approach of just saying it's a minor problem...

Someone on here posted that they themselves had been falsely accused, and your response was one of the biggest strawman posts I've ever seen on here (and I lurked for years before finally signing up for posting privileges):

Other poster: "I had a false rape claim but it was so unbelievable and ill timed I was never charged. I have also been arrested for something I didnt do. If you would have mixed both of those incidents it would have been horrific so I can relate to the OP."

Your exact response: "So you think women are a bunch of liars who try to persecute men through false claims of paternity and rape to swindle them out of money?"

[geek tragedy]

127. That person had the laundry list of MRA grievances.

I tend to treat factual claims--including autobiographical ones--with skepticism when they come from a dude complaining that men have to pay child support.

And they pushed the loathsome MRA talking point that false rape accusations are a commonplace occurrence.

Person had an obvious ideological agenda.

[geek tragedy]

4. Yet another OP on a very rare problem.

Amazing that we see no OP's about false accusations of felony assault, arson, fraud etc.

Only this particular genre, which happens to be the hobby horse of the online misogynist activist community.

[TreasonousBastard]

7. You must have missed the posts about death row mistakes...

or all the black men in jail on trumped up charges?

They are discussions of justice, but false accusations about sexual assault would be misogyny?

Now, who's got a hobby horse?

[geek tragedy]

9. Just a coincidence that those who post this stuff

are the most vociferous men's rights advocates on the site who also act as if domestic violence hurts men as much as it does women, etc etcetera. And that the emphasis is on the horrible lying woman (or here girl) not abuse of authority or prosecutorial misconduct.

See, it's never about systemic injustice with these OPs, it's about how we shouldn't trust rape victims.

[Drale]

29. The poster is someone who wants to ignore a problem

because it doesn't fit into their "roses are red" world view and it sad that they call themselves liberal.

[geek tragedy]

32. False rape charges are not a serious problem for society.

That is innumerate "Men's Rights" propaganda

[closeupready]

39. Wow. What bullshit. False rape charges are a VERY serious problem.

For society, for those who file false charges, and those who are charged with them.

You are so out there.

[geek tragedy]

41. Just like shark attacks are a serious problem.

Deadly serious if it happens to you, but rare.

False reports are not the reason people disbelieve rape victims.

[seabeyond]

46. False rape per FBI and Scottland yard 2-3%. Scottland yard has it closer to 2%.

Just saying

[Mojo Electro]

166. They're aren't that much of a problem for those who file the false charges.

There never seems to be any repercussions for filing false rape claims. It's very easy for a women to use that as a weapon against a man.

It's a lot more common than most people like to admit.

[closeupready]

167. In The Goodbye Girl, if you saw that 70's film, Marsha Mason's

character threatens Richard Dreyfuss that she is going to falsely cry 'rape!' if he fails to vacate the premises he subleased legally from her ex-boyfriend.

I saw this film with my family when it was released, but didn't recall that bit - I mean, unless I was obsessed with Marsha Mason or Richard Dreyfuss films, why would I have remembered it? But upon watching it again very recently, that little bit of dialogue REALLY leapt out at me, particularly in light of how social mores have changed since that time (for the better, I might add). That is, American society in the 70's looked so lightly at the act of rape that it could even be legitimate fodder for mainstream wisecracks. One can't envisage that happening in modern comedies, or at least I can't.

[eridani]

170. And even easier to get by with actual rape n/t

[geek tragedy]

176. MRA horseshit. Peddle that garbage at DI.

Unless you are going to surprise everyone and produce legit research to back up your MRA mythology.

[Shankapotomus]

8. Occasionally rare issues do come up

This is also very rare

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025886887

[snooper2]

14. DU doesn't have an arson brigade on either side

Of course if we did, everyone would instantly become a chief fire inspector dude/dudette LOL

[geek tragedy]

16. Does DU have a cross-burning and gay-bashing brigade or is it only

women who get marginalized in such a way?

[seabeyond]

18. thank you. nt

[snooper2]

101. women and white men seem to be the #1 topic dejour, and the 1 PERCENT!

Never seem to have 100+ post threads on inner city violence or issues facing the Native American community but hey, I'm just here waiting for my beer and travel money

[geek tragedy]

108. "Inner city violence"

Two words: Darren Wilson

[Renew Deal]

93. Look up Cameron Todd Willingham on DU and then delete your post

For being wrong.

[mwrguy]

10. That's the rapists side of the story

Now let's hear from the victim.

[Shoulders of Giants]

11. And you know this how?

[AverageJoe90]

48. He doesn't. nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

112. because only a real rapist would deny committing rape

[pipi_k]

12. Good point

There's always another side to any story.

So yeah, let's hear from the victim.



Strange thing is, though...had this been told first from the victim's point of view, would there be a similar call for a story from the "rapist's" side?

I'm thinking probably not.

Because if someone most consider to be a victim anyway (by virtue of race or gender or whatever) says something happened, then it must be true. No other side of the story. Don't even suggest there might be another side

[geek tragedy]

23. The entire point of this OP was to call a 13 year old girl

a lying slut.

Peopke who think that shit is cool got issues.

[Comrade Grumpy]

25. Nobody called anybody "a lying slut," oh overheated one. Except you.

Here is what the author said: "I don’t know why you told your friend that I had raped you – maybe because you didn’t want to admit you’d had sex so casually or maybe because you were scared."

And this, I think, is the entire point of the OP:

"Rape is an abhorrent crime and every victim should be able to report it. But false accusations of rape are abhorrent too, and the victims too easily forgotten. Not only do false allegations damage the life of the victim but they also contribute to the trivialisation of the seriousness of genuine sexual violence."

[geek tragedy]

28. From the link:

I moved away from home and keep minimal ties with my old life, but I don’t think I’ll ever forget what you did. I don’t know why you told your friend that I had raped you – maybe because you didn’t want to admit you’d had sex so casually or maybe because you were scared.

But I will never be able to forgive you for what you did to me.

By: anonymous.

[bettyellen]

33. he said she lies, and had sex too "casually" ..... different choice of words, same meaning really.

[pipi_k]

30. Like the person

above me pointed out, nobody called the girl a lying slut.

What the guy did say was that perhaps the girl lied because she was afraid HER FRIEND would think she had had sex too casually.

Girls are often harder on other girls than guys are when it comes to casual sex.

[geek tragedy]

31. Cool story.

How do you know this letter is factual vs fictional?

[pipi_k]

119. In this situation...

nobody really knows, do they?


But even if the letter is a work of fiction in this case, it could be, and probably is, factual in a whole lot of other cases.


How do you know this has never happened before in the history of humankind?

[geek tragedy]

128. So, lying 13 year old virgin seductresses

weaving their web of deceit at parentally-supervised sessions of binge-drinking for middle-schoolers is something that happens quite often.

About as often as 15 year old boys who are shitfaced and horny maintain perfect clarity and memory and judgement at all times.

[treestar]

62. So telling the police about it will solve that?

Nobody would do that. It makes it much more known and public.

[pipi_k]

122. Never say,

"Nobody would do that".

Because you would be surprised at what people will do and/or say even when it doesn't make sense to do or say it.

[moriah]

36. I know someone who was falsely accused as a teen as well.

Fortunately he had the best alibi -- he was at a friend's house the night she said it happened playing a role-playing game, when she said it happened at his house during the same time-frame as the game.

Since it could be proven the "Anonymous" in the OP had vaginal intercourse of some kind with the 13-year-old girl, and it could have been an age-related case as well -- they might not have had as broad of Romeo and Juliet laws in my state. Since the OP's letter mentioned underage, I was wondering if the charge of "rape" might have been related to his age vs her age.

I've also been raped, and the case dismissed because there wasn't enough evidence to prove it -- wouldn't even take it before a grand jury based on texts and emails, since he didn't confess over the recorded phone call..

False accusations are damaging to getting justice for real victims. Yes, they do happen. I'm not sure what this case actually was, because I didn't hear the 13-year-old's side of the story to explain why, if it was true there was a witness in the same room, she wasn't able to alert them that she didn't want to participate in what was happening (if she'd binge-drank so much that she was blacked out or unable to protest, as one possible reason given what was written in the boy's letter, for example).

[geek tragedy]

42. Society's willingness to believe rape/sexual assault

from 13 year olds is not a problem of crisis proportions, imo.

[AverageJoe90]

49. Yeah. Honestly, why is it such an issue to some to admit that this kinda thing happens?

To be truthful, I don't know for sure if this story is true or false.....I mean, it could be B.S., possibly, but hoaxed incidents of false rape accusations are at least about as rare as actual accusations themselves, if not more so.

[seabeyond]

196. WHO has the issue with teen consentual sex?

[AverageJoe90]

209. Talk about missing the point.....nt

[seabeyond]

211. "why is it such an issue to some to admit that this kinda thing happens?" who?

you made the statement. so i am giving you the opportunity for clarification. who? says that teen sex does not happen?

you made the statement. not me. i ask. you have the chance to answer.

you are redefining this thread.

why?

not a single damn person on this thread is stating that consensual sex does not happen among teens.

the point being, it is derailing and dismissing. that is what i am calling out.

you state i am missing the point. i nailed the point. your point. to dismiss others voice on this thread, stating WHO is saying consensual sex does not happen among teens.

[AverageJoe90]

212. You can't be fucking serious.

I was clear enough here. But since you insist, may I underscore the point?

To be truthful, I don't know for sure if this story is true or false.....I mean, it could be B.S., possibly, but hoaxed incidents of false rape accusations are at least about as rare as actual accusations themselves, if not more so.

And I stand by what I wrote/ We have no clue if this story of a boy being falsely accused of rape by a girl is 100% true or not, but we ought not to dismiss it entirely, either.

the point being, it is derailing and dismissing. that is what i am calling out.

you state i am missing the point. i nailed the point. your point. to dismiss others voice on this thread, stating WHO is saying consensual sex does not happen among teens.

You can stop bullshitting us(and projecting!) now, Seabeyond. None of this is the least bit accurate or truthful, and you know that as well as I do. There was no dismissal, or derailment on my end, and in fact, quite the opposite, actually.

[Nye Bevan]

43. Wow. Was it really necessary to introduce the word "slut" into this discussion? (nt)

[LostInAnomie]

52. When all else fails start throwing bombs.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

58. It'll make it easier when he doubles down and calls the letter writer an asshole and a pig. n/m

[geek tragedy]

65. Here is what the totally non-misogynist letter writer wrote:

I moved away from home and keep minimal ties with my old life, but I don’t think I’ll ever forget what you did. I don’t know why you told your friend that I had raped you – maybe because you didn’t want to admit you’d had sex so casually or maybe because you were scared.

But I will never be able to forgive you for what you did to me.

[Bettie]

105. And note the way he said it

"YOU didn't want to admit YOU'D had sex so casually"...but that's not calling her a lying slut? Um, yeah, it is.

But is it extremely common in our society to assume that rape victims were asking for it.

[seabeyond]

109. a year or more ago, we had two posters, admit to rape in their youth.

it was like.... rape week, triggering a lot of hurt and pain for a lot of people. mostly women. but, there were men too.

granted, the question asked was 3, 4 buddies, going into a room of an unconscious girl, and fucking her.... rape? how it was a norm. what they did in the day. ect...

this OP was so long ago. from a then boy, now a man. booze? at that age? for either?

from the little i invested in this story from so many years ago, from a now man, seeing himself innocent of rape, cause after all.... i mean, who would want to see themselves as coercing a 13 yr old drunk girl in some other persons home. ... where there is not safety, security, trust.

honestly. i could not read the story.

parents, all around, failed these kids.

[Bettie]

113. You are right...parents did fail here

on all levels.

Giving kids alcohol at that age, letting them all sleep together, etc?

I remember the rape threads now, I had to stay far from those threads because it made me so angry, because YES, screwing a passed out girl is rape and should never have been the norm, never.

But, rapists have been making excuses for as long as there has been rape. Somehow, it is always someone else's fault.

[mythology]

131. Actually it doesn't use either lying or slut

At best you are assuming that is what was meant based on your own presumption.

[Bettie]

148. No, he doesn't use those specific words

And yet, the entire article is about how she's a liar (evidenced by his insistence that he was an innocent victim in the whole thing) and he makes a point about how SHE had sex so casually.

To anyone reading it, she's a liar and was "easy", if that suits your sensibilities more.

[Eleanors38]

50. "lying slut." Who said that? Is that allowed?

[geek tragedy]

63. The author of the guardian piece:

I moved away from home and keep minimal ties with my old life, but I don’t think I’ll ever forget what you did. I don’t know why you told your friend that I had raped you – maybe because you didn’t want to admit you’d had sex so casually or maybe because you were scared.

But I will never be able to forgive you for what you did to me.

[Nye Bevan]

74. You keep posting that excerpt, but I don't see the word "slut" (nt)

[geek tragedy]

76. go ahead and parse out the author's characterization that a drunk 13 year old girl

"had sex so casually."

[Eleanors38]

86. Doesn't look like "lying slut" to me. Rather, an

accurate summation of their actions. But then, I'm not invested in a manichaean ideology.

[geek tragedy]

87. "accurate summation of her actions."

You were there?

Also, "had sex so casually" is not an objective description, it's a detrimental judgment--one that you apparently share--towards a drunk 13 year old girl.

Not surprised you're so willing to believe an implausible tale of a lying, scheming, drunken thirteen-year old virgin seductress.

[Eleanors38]

89. Ah, guilt-association, the usual end result of this

kind of thread. They seems so static -- even droll -- these discussions. Little is accomplished, few are persuaded.

[geek tragedy]

90. This isn't guilt by association.

It's just noting that you explicitly agreed with some pretty noxious 'slut-shaming'

That's just plain guilt

[Eleanors38]

95. You are SUCH a hoot. nt

[el_bryanto]

96. I didn't get that sense from the letter

I mean I don't know what the OPs point was - but reading the letter from the Guardian was pretty disturbing. While false accusations of rape are very rare (and not nearly the problem that actual cases of rape are), they do happen I would imagine.

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

106. The whole thing was full of resentment towards

a 13 year old girl who was drunk. Seems off in a number of ways.

[el_bryanto]

111. When you say off - you mean false? You think the author

(who did go by anonymous so it's hard to verify any details) was not being honest?

Or is it more that he blamed all his problems on an incident that happened when he was 15?

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

124. Doesn't add up or seem credible.

The remarkable level of detail for a drunk, horny 15 year old being one.

Also, paternally-supervised "binge drinking" followed by parentally-supervised co-ed sleeping arrangements seems implausible at best.

[el_bryanto]

130. so in your theory - there was no rape accusation/situation

It was a fictionalized account. You aren't saying he's lying about being innocent; you are saying he's lying about the incident occurring at all.

I wonder what the standards in the UK are for printing anonymous letters like this; because some elements of it would be verifiable if he gave his name to the Guardian, but requested it not be published.

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

132. That seems most plausible.

Another is that this is a very self-serving account.

"'I did that' says my memory. 'I couldn't have done that' says my pride, and stands its ground. Finally, memory gives in."

--Nietzsche

[el_bryanto]

133. Well the anonymity stands in the way of resolving it to any great extent

There's no way to go back and find out what the girl said or what the incident really involved; nor would it do much good to do so. Rather you look at this incident and read based on your own experiences and biases. There are those for whom sounds completely plausible, and others for whom this doesn't make any sense at all.

I come down in the middle (it could have happened, it might not have, and there's no way to know); I suppose because it comes from the Guardian which is nominally a pretty liberal paper - if I read this at a more conservative place I would probably be more critical.

Bryant

[MADem]

156. Now, see, I thought the purpose was to "blame" her for "turning" him gay....

There did seem to be an unspoken "...and it's all YOUR FAULT" up in there...

You damaged my perception of women entirely and the only relationship I have since been able to sustain is with a man I can trust.

I'll be honest--these first person confessionals don't resonate with me. People can throw out statistics about how many people get convicted and how many accusations are false, and DNA tests exonerating this one or that, but it's all a mish-mash. People are always going to try to paint themselves and their motives in the best possible light. They may also take the view that THEIR perceptions are the only accurate ones. By another token, it's entirely possible for a person to participate willingly in a behavior and then, later, regret it.

But there's really no way for any of "us" to know what the "truth" is unless we were a fly on the wall observing this encounter.

I'd much rather see a conversation between the victim/accuser and the alleged rapist/other victim (depending on who is who and what the truth is). I think the only way to sort it out is to have the two of them talk with each other and express their feelings and perceptions. Anything other than that is just an exercise in Taking Sides about who is "right" and who is "wrong," who the "victim" is, who the "perpetrator" is, and maybe even (given the shitty parenting) who the "enablers" are.

This confessional essay doesn't get to the heart of the matter at all--it does create a rallying point for people who want to see these issues in a particular way, though. If people want their biases confirmed they can find that here--if they want to rail against the "they always get away with it" POV, this essay works, too. It creates a lot of heat but not nearly enough light.

[tritsofme]

13. From the language you use in your post

It appears you have already judged the guilt and innocence of the two parties, why bother hearing the other side?

[treestar]

66. nevertheless the poster is right that we only have one side

We are supposed to assume the boy here is telling the truth. The article only gives his side.

[stevenleser]

140. And that is really the only correct response. The Guardian seems to have a bunch of "Letter to"

offerings on different subjects. I am not sure what one is supposed to get out of any of them since they are all one sided.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/series/aletterto

[tammywammy]

15. ...

"I tell practically no one now about what happened, for fear of being perceived as a rapist [...]."

[Donald Ian Rankin]

61. Do you think it would be fair to describe this as pure, unmitigated trolling? N.T.

[Renew Deal]

94. You are part of the problem this victim describes

He wasn't even charges according to his letter.

[Ino]

17. This is b.s.

This is why it's statutory rape to have sex with a 13-year-old. Excuse me... a 13-year-8-month-year-old. Can a 13-year-8-month-year-old virgin consent? Does she even know what she's consenting to? He reports that he asked the essential “Do you want to … ?” Did he finish that sentence? Want to... what? Maybe she thought he meant snuggle or make out or pet.

That was as irresponsible as going ahead without a condom because virgin-boy didn't expect to have sex and the scheming virgin-girl didn't offer a condom if she had one. As irresponsible as "the usual Friday night routine of underage binge drinking and smoking to look cool."

The point of Anonymous's article, which I don't believe is a true story, is contained in the last paragraph...

Rape is an abhorrent crime and every victim should be able to report it. But false accusations of rape are abhorrent too, and the victims too easily forgotten. Not only do false allegations damage the life of the victim but they also contribute to the trivialisation of the seriousness of genuine sexual violence.

It's a classic whining "what about the boyzzzzzzz.... sometimes the accusations are faaaaaalse!" story, with the added bump of suggesting such an incident can make someone gay ("the only relationship I have since been able to sustain is with a man I can trust.&quot

Damn those scheming little 13-year-8-month-old virgins! They will ruin your liiiiiiiife!

[Wella]

19. There are reasons for statutory rape laws

13 is still a child in Western societies.

[Chipala]

24. Its statutory rape if the accused is an adult or the ages are further apart.

teenagers have sex all the time. Throwing them in jail for it makes their life worse. Especially with our jails. Trust me there are girls at that age and younger who know what sex is. When I was a kid I saw it and I did it. I was just talking about it with my wife. She cant believe what I did with girls at the age of 9. Its why I keep an eye on my sons because I was having sex before I was a teen.

[Ino]

35. Technically, it's statutory rape if accused is an adult...

but just because they are both young teens doesn't mean a 13-year-old girl's consent is acceptable.

If she can't "consent" when the accused is an adult, then her "consent" when they're both underage isn't really consent either! Especially when what the boy knows is an "essential" question is an open-ended "Do you want to..."

Oh, I believe there are girls that age and younger who know what sex is. They have been sexually abused. They think that's how to get attention and affection. They think that's what males want from them... that's ALL that males want from them. They think that's what they are FOR.

[treestar]

64. that young is not normal

good grief.

[moriah]

152. Unless she's been sheltered beyond belief, yes, she knows exactly what she's consenting to.

And I mean sheltered as "homeschooled by Fundies who never taught her sex ed and a late bloomer so they hadn't even had the period talk" sheltered. Especially if the "Do you want to" was said right before intercourse, which is what makes more sense to me as a time to ask, not while petting or kissing or before any touching at all.

15 isn't that much older than 13, either. In my state, we have "Romeo and Juliet" laws that give a guideline as to an appropriate age difference -- here it's 3 years, some may have 4 or 5 years age difference acceptable, especially with older teens who haven't reached the age to consent to sex with adults (to make an 18-year-old not guilty of rape if he had sex with his 16-year-old girlfriend who has been his girlfriend for years, etc).

What's sad is some states criminalize conduct between two 13-year-olds. What are they going to do, send the one who's older by a few months to jail? Both?

Now, if she was blacked out drunk, or if she was so intoxicated she couldn't alert the person allegedly sleeping next to them, that's where things get hairy. None of us have heard the girl's side. Perhaps she said to her friend she had sex and the friend said it had to be rape because she'd been drinking, but wasn't passed out yet, and reported it to the police who snagged on the age issue (because the age issue seems to predominate the perp's story). Or perhaps he threatened her and told her to keep her mouth shut. I have no idea.

But there's a reason for Romeo and Juliet laws. Not all states have them, and a situation could very easily arise where consensual sex between two teens that are close in age lands one of them in jail. And I don't think that's right.

[Trillo]

155. Nature disagrees with you

From Wikipedia, "On average, girls begin puberty at ages 10–11; boys at ages 11–12.[1][2]"

I remember when I was a kid, maybe about that age and I was reading about it, the books all seemed to say it occurred around 16-17, though I no longer recall specific male/female differences. Either those books were wrong, or puberty has accelerated in a few short decades. Another possibility, is the books were intentionally lying (I'm not saying they were), perhaps a result of a sexually-repressed Christian viewpoint.

When puberty begins, kids are gonna start experimenting. It's just the way nature makes us.

If what you say about the age-of-conset laws is true, then those laws are in need of update to reflect reality instead of outdated understanding.

Dammit, I'm not done typing, and I gotta go.

[eridani]

171. Puberty does indeed occur earlier

We are much better fed than we were a couple of hundred years ago.

[AngryAmish]

178. Once a girl gets heavy enough she begins to have periods

(And of course there are huge differences in individuals but elevated levels of fat do produce some estrogen, and enough estrogen means menarche if I recall the term correctly. )

[latebloomer]

20. I was raped myself as a 20-year-old

but I was appalled at my daughter's 22-year-old friend's accusations of rape against a young man who she gave oral sex to when they were both drunk.

Fine to regret your decision, but look at your own actions and the consequences, rather than attempting to ruin someone else's life.

[Mz Pip]

26. I knew someone this happened to.

The two teens had consensual sex at a party. When the girls boyfriend found out she said she was raped.

It happens. The idea that girls don't lie about sex is ridiculous.

[hedgehog]

27. What it absolutely is is a warning to young men never to engage in casual sex with young teenagers.

(I'm not going to presume that all relationships are heterosexual). We don't send 12 year olds to war, but we do send 18 year olds. That's one way that society recognizes that there is a difference between a young teen and an older teen.

[unblock]

34. this letter no doubt leaves out some key allegations, such as the threat of harm if she screamed.

the story as written doesn't add up. there was a potential witness sleeping close by. if the girl objected and screamed, it could have all come to a quick end.

so we're to believe three things:
first, that the girl claimed to not give consent (not merely by virtue of age, but he's accusing her of lying, implying that she explicitly claimed that she didn't say yes); and
second, that the girl didn't make a noise at the time. certainly not enough to wake up the potential witness; and
third, that the system took the above scenario entirely seriously for months.

to me, it's simply not very plausible that the system took the scenario seriously as described. they would have asked the girl why she didn't object, why she didn't make a noise, why she didn't wake up the other person.

there are two far more plausible scenarios:
one is that the girl was actually asleep the entire time. drugged, perhaps, maybe just too much alcohol.
two is that the boy threatened violence or other harm if she said anything.

the boy could have still written a letter claiming even that was a lie, and as this is an anonymous case i can't say, perhaps it was. but what i can say is that it's much more plausible if the girl's story included such a threat, and the boy's letter becomes far less sympathetic had he mentioned that accusation as well.

[NaturalHigh]

37. What a terrible story...

and how did I know it would inspire so much hatred and disbelief here? To those who claim that this is an exceedingly rare problem, does that mean that people who have had to live through this shouldn't talk about it?

[geek tragedy]

67. Same way it was predictable that people such as yourself

would believe every syllable of it without an ounce of skepticism, including this part:

I moved away from home and keep minimal ties with my old life, but I don’t think I’ll ever forget what you did. I don’t know why you told your friend that I had raped you – maybe because you didn’t want to admit you’d had sex so casually or maybe because you were scared.

But I will never be able to forgive you for what you did to me.

The author called a 13 year old girl a lying slut, and the usual suspects at DU found it plausible.

[NaturalHigh]

69. Is there some particular reason you don't believe the story?

[geek tragedy]

70. Because anonymous tales of malicious, lying 13 year old virgin seductresses are generally bullshit.

The author obviously has some 13 year old girl in his past that he deeply hates, not much more to discern here.

[NaturalHigh]

115. I sure wish I had your psychic powers.

[malaise]

38. Yes this does happen

and I feel his horrific pain

[LisaL]

40. The girl in the story was 13.

Which makes it kind of hard to feel sorry for the guy. Even if everything he says is the truth.

[Marr]

51. He was one year older. Why is it hard to feel sorry for him?

[cali]

73. why is it so easy to believe when you only have one side of the story?

[AngryAmish]

80. Do you believe the UVA rape story?

1. Anonymous accuser (same as op, but not unusual in rape cases).

2. Accuser friends also unnamed.

3. Both known accused unnamed.

4. Allegations that a song causes rape.

[cali]

83. I don't know enough about it to make a judgment

[Marr]

120. I didn't say I believed it.

I asked why it should be so hard to feel sympathy for one of the children in this narrative, yet so easy, apparently, to feel for the other.

[erpowers]

97. Two Actually

He was two years older than her. It is not the I do not have sympathy for the young man, if his story is true. However, I would think a 15 year old boy would think it is not okay to have sex with a 13 year old girl. I would think he would know that a 13 year old girl is too young to consent to sex.

[Marr]

118. One year and two months, according to the story.

I'd say that's much more like a year.

[Ino]

157. One year and FOUR months, according to the story

[Marr]

164. My mistake-- four months. But the point is unchanged. /nt

[Ino]

183. Except...

that makes it much more like a year-and-a-half

instead of much more like a year.

[Marr]

186. Then why say two years?

It seems like you're trying to make the boy in this scenario seem as much a predator as possible.

[Ino]

208. I'm not the poster who said two years...

but 15 minus 13 does equal 2. So there actually is a basis for saying 2 years?

You are quibbling about months... shaving off two months, then rounding down to one year! If you're going to correct someone, at least be accurate.

I don't believe his is the whole story, or a wholly accurate story. In fact, I don't believe it's a true story at all.

[LisaL]

98. 13 year old girl can not consent.

And as the story goes, he asked her an open ended question "do you want to?"
To do what? Did 13 year old even understand what is it he wanted to do?

[kelly1mm]

117. In many states a 15 year old cannot consent either, correct? nt

[moriah]

143. I disagree, Lisa. There are reasons for "Romeo and Juliet" laws.

A two year age difference is not huge between teenagers, even a 13-year-old and a 15-year-old. Disregarding that according to the story they were 1 year and 4 months apart.

And I knew the facts about sex when I was 13. They start on education about that in the sixth grade at most schools, and 7th grade when I was going to school had an entire quarter dedicated to sex ed. My Dad bragged (and I cringed) about his first sex with an 11-year-old at 12. I'd much rather kids mess around with other kids if they're going to mess around, than to seek out adults who have far more power over them.

In my state, it's legal if both parties are willing and they're less than 3 years apart in age, no matter what their actual ages are, until the age of consent. Which makes far more sense if we want to prevent adults taking advantage of kids.

What if they'd both been 13? Would the boy still be automatically at fault? Or did they rape each other, if you're going to go by laws that say under 14 cannot consent at all, like Indiana does?

[LisaL]

185. So in your view it's o'key to have sex with a 13 year old girl who apparently also was drunk?

Since the author talks about binge drinking prior to ending up at the house where they were allowed to sleep in the same room?

[moriah]

187. I'm not a 15-year-old boy, so no, I don't think I should screw 13-year-old girls.

I'm not going to say what's legally "too young" for kids to fuck around with other kids of a like age. Otherwise, we'd be arresting 5-year-olds for playing doctor.

As for the booze, no, I'm not one of the people who thinks having sex with a drunk person is rape, if they're able to participate in the sex. Obviously if they're passed out, that's rape. The hairy area comes when the person is in a blackout -- it's very damn hard to tell if someone's blacked out, because they may speak, move, and act like they have full control of themselves. And in this case, we don't know if she was black-out drunk or not, since we haven't heard her side, if "Anonymous" wasn't just penning fiction out of whole cloth and actually was arrested.

Edit to add: If I had sons, would I teach them that's a Bad Idea to have sex with a drunk female? Yes, I would, and explain all of the consequences -- from false rape allegations if she doesn't remember to the fact drunk people rarely use condoms. I'd explain that even one drink should be enough for them to not have sex with that female, but also the things to look for so he knows if he needs to get help for that female if she's all over him rather than taking advantage of her drunkenness or letting others do so. If I had daughters, would I teach them that it's a Bad Idea to try to drink like the boys? Absolutely, and tell them exactly why it's so bad, which I know from personal experience (having been raped while passed out), along with mentioning again that alcohol impairs judgment about who you choose to sleep with and if you choose to use a condom.

But I'm not of the belief that two kids of a like age fucking is rape, even if she's had something to drink, if both parties are willing and able participants in the sex act. Stupid yes, and I wonder where the parents were in all of this, but not criminal.

[pipi_k]

123. Well, 15 isn't exactly

25 or 30, either.

Teenaged boys are stupid about a lot of things. Some guys are still stupid at 25 or 30 (and beyond) but that's not the point here.


They can't control their emotions. They can't control their libidos. They are not models of self-control for any aspect of life.

Not an excuse...just fact.

I mean, let's turn this around. What if the 15 year old boy were seduced by a 31 year old woman? Is he a man, or just a kid without life experience?

[seabeyond]

125. "They can't control their emotions. They can't control their libidos." beg to differ, and not fact

[moriah]

137. So an adult woman screwing a 15-year-old boy is okay to you?

Compared to the adult woman, they are certainly at a level of maturity that gives the older party power to manipulate the situation, often by manipulating those very same emotions and libidos.

[seabeyond]

138. really? i am challenging boys not having control over libido and that means adult women

raping a boy is ok?

is that really how you interpreted my reply, my words?

you will find i am about the first to state, that it is wrong for an adult woman to have sex with our youth, whether the boy says ok or not, for a number of reasons. you will find i am the first to state the many issues with that, no different than if an adut man had sex with a girl.

consistently and always.

further.

i suggest, my post stating that boys do have control over emotion and libido is standing up for boys, not insulting them.

dontcha think?

[moriah]

139. I was hoping you'd acknowledge that at 15 they are not in the adult category for control over that.

So laws like those in Indiana, where regardless of the defendant's age, having intercourse with someone under 14 is a crime, are pretty fucked up when you have a 15-year-old defendant.

At least my state has a "Romeo and Juliet" clause -- where if the teens are willing and are close enough in age (3 years), that it's not criminal conduct.

[seabeyond]

142. Now you want to chat about how I feel a 13 yr old and 15 consensual ly having sex?

That has not been my conversation.

I really am not getting into pecking out that whole subject. You first suggest that I am fine with a 35 yr old woman raping a child. Now you suggest I have a problem with kids having consensual sex with each other. Why?

[moriah]

145. Because according to the story, the age difference was a reason they were arresting him.

It may not have been "the" reason, but at the end of the story and at the beginning it looks like they went by the ages of the parties as factors in charges.

If the victim had continued to say it was not consensual, if she *ever* said that (because the guy focused so much on age, I wonder if that was ever said), there would have been a trial.

But I'm sick of people trying to say that a 15-year-old is so much more powerful and in control of their emotions just because they might be the older party, and not by a great deal. If you see, this went up to the comment from LisaL that because the victim was 13 she didn't feel sorry for the alleged perp at all, even though he was only one year and four months older.

The person you responded to said that 15-year-olds aren't much more knowledgable and powerful than 13-year-olds. You disagreed, which is why I posted. I think maybe now you can see my logic in the questions I'm asking?

[seabeyond]

150. I have not addressed any of this in any of my posts in this thread. Nt

[moriah]

154. You responded to a person saying that 15 wasn't the same as 25 by disagreeing. n/t

[seabeyond]

184. no. for like the third time. i copied and pasted her words. boys cant control their libido.

my copy adn pasting of her words, and addressing those words, are a clue in on what i was talking about.

[AverageJoe90]

47. Poor guy. Letter is a tad harsh at the end, but.....

Assuming for a second that this is indeed a true case, that actually happened:

TBH, this problem really isn't all that common, but, unfortunately, it DOES happen on occasion. And when such *is* proven, we should support those who were victimized by such a false accusation, just as we should support those people who are victims of actual rape. I know I would.

[Derek V]

53. Uh.....

I dunno about this...

[Prophet 451]

54. False accusations do happen

When I was 22 (I think, early Twenties for sure), I lived in one of those bedsits (for Americans: Single room that combines bedroom and lounge, sometimes with a small kitchen built in, the only thing welfare will pay for if you're under 35) where someone has turned what was built as a normal house into a load of bedsits. The walls were paper thin and so were the ceilings and floors. Unless you made a specific effort to be quiet, the entire house could hear you quietly cough.

Anyway, one time I happened to overhear the upstairs neighbor's sometime girlfriend trying to apologise for accusing him of raping her. He pointed out that he's just spent overnight in the local police station because of this accusation and he just wanted her to leave. She was sobbing and repeatedly apologising while he just kept repeating that he wanted her to go away.

So it does happen. Occasionally.

But it happens relatively rarely. The Home Office (who are responsible for crime and policing here in the UK) estimates the false accusations at 4-6%. So, for every 100 men accused of rape, maybe 6 are innocent and 94 are rapists. Now, that doesn't mean we should automatically believe every woman who claims she has been raped because that 4-6% still exists and it's possible that she's one of them, that's why criminal trials have presumption of innocence. But it does mean we should investigate in the knowledge that, statistically, she's much more likely to be telling the truth.

What defeats me is how we can discourage the false claims without also frightening off the (statistical majority) genuine victims. Is it possible to do so? Or are the occasional false claims something we just have to live with if we're trying to make it easier for female victims (male victims of rape have a whole additional battle getting people to even believe they exist) to report their attacker?

NOTE: I'm ignoring the whole issue about age because they were relatively close in age and so, both are doing something stupid fucking at that age.

[kcr]

144. I think the answer is clear. We should listen through walls more n/t

[cali]

57. 15 and 13. and we are hearing one side.

[nomorenomore08]

59. We all know (or should know) how often rape victims are disbelieved.

Yet this girl was seemingly taken at her word, almost without question.

I don't know anywhere near enough to say that the guy's lying, so I won't assume that. This just seems like a peculiar case.

[cali]

60. why are so many in this thread accepting this as gospel truth?

It's one side of the story. In any case, this is not representative of false rape claims as the two were quite young children.

I am not discounting false rape claims- they're terrible and destructive, but this case is hardly a good example.

[geek tragedy]

71. Answer: confirmation bias. nt

[cali]

72. that seems to be the most logical answer.

[geek tragedy]

75. note how the author was supposedly drunk off his ass but remembers every single detail

also no note as to who called the police.

[eridani]

173. Stating that an experience like this can turn someone gay is unmitigated horseshit

One bullshit statement casts a shadow over the whole narrative.

[geek tragedy]

174. +1 nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

77. I can only speak for myself...

My intent was pure and clear because the OP spoke to something I talk to my 16-year-old son about. Not that "all girls are ___ who out to get you." Not that this can ever even possibly happen to him someday.

Yes, I know that the cases are few and far between, but I did/do worry about it enough to counsel my son not to be an idiot, himself. Because, at the end of the day, it would be on him for making a decision.

Writing me down in some imaginary notebook or making an assumed judgment against me would be unfair.

[geek tragedy]

78. You certainly have been thoughtful and rational in your discussion here

and I did not intend to include you in that attribution.

Apologies for the lack of clarity.

[ScreamingMeemie]

79. Thank you greek...

I hope you have a terrific day.

[Union Scribe]

149. ...vs assuming dishonesty

because a story doesn't fall in line with an opposing bias?

[geek tragedy]

151. What "opposing bias" would that be?

Spell it out for us.

[davidn3600]

153. You dont seem to require the other side of the story with the Cosby allegations

You want two sides of the story in one situation before you pass judgement, but then in another situation you only require one side of the story.

We haven't even heard Cosby's side of the story, but I'm rather certain you've already convicted him, so it won't matter what he says.

I'm not saying those women accusing Cosby of sexual assault are all liars. Im just suggesting that we don't have enough information....which is exactly what you are saying about the story in the op.

[geek tragedy]

158. There aren't two sides to the Cosby scandal.

There are 15 at last count. One for Cosby, 14 for his victims. And spare me the "we don't have enough information" apologist bullshit.

You don't believe those 14 women who have gone public, under their own names,but you believe the anonymous writer here.

The odds that all 14 women are lying is around 1 in one quadrillion. (.03 ^14)


Transparent. as you always are when it comes to women.

[chrisa]

163. The reactions are letter C on the following confirmation bias options:

A - It's a conspiracy / propaganda / paid posters, and therefore can be safely ignored. Also known as the shill gambit.

B - The messenger of said article or opinion is not perfect, and therefore the message can be safely ignored. The more ad hominem attacks on the messenger, the better. No need to discuss the article or anything - focus on the messenger and 'shoot' as much as possible.

C - Something a random person said on the internet can assumed to be 100% true, because nobody would ever lie on the internet. There is only one side to a story, and any others are not important. The source can be so much as a small blog - as long as it validates my opinion, it must both be true and 100% accurate.

[geek tragedy]

81. I'll call it: this letter is a fabrication and a work of fiction.

And a rather clumsily executed one at that. Never bothered to get the cast of characters straight. Nor to make clear who exactly it was that called the police.

To wit, the 'friend'--

we ended up staying over at a mutual friend’s house. His not-so-traditional parents made it an ideal hangout.

...

“Bed” turned out to be you, your friend and me sleeping on three mattresses in a dining room.

...

so as not to wake your friend who lay just two metres away, asleep.

...

I woke up being shaken by my friend’s father and two policemen.

...

One of the officers instructed the other to “bag” my T-shirt so my friend’s dad gave me his to put on

My friend was shouting something in my defence but it wasn’t until I was being arrested at the side of the police car for rape that I realised what was happening.

...

I don’t know why you told your friend that I had raped you – maybe because you didn’t want to admit you’d had sex so casually or maybe because you were scared.

Also, did the guy have a stop watch on?

We gave up our virginity in eight minutes of clumsiness and confusion.

Extra credit for the father of the year who supposedly allowed 13 year olds to get drunk and smoke and have co-ed sleeping arrangements.

Who called the police?

[RedCappedBandit]

82. Has this guy ever considered what he took for consent actually wasn't?

I'm sorry but his anecdote really doesn't mean shit to me. I feel for the guy given the circumstances. It sounds awful. But that really doesn't mean the 13 year old girl wasn't a victim.

[LWolf]

84. This is possible.

When boys have more freedom to explore budding sexuality, and girls are condemned for it, as has been, and still is to some degree, traditional in our culture, this kind of scenario is more likely to happen. It didn't happen to me, nor to anyone I grew up with. In my experience, I had a hell of a lot more to worry about from my mom's boyfriends than I ever did from the horny boys at school or in my social group.

I certainly never worried about this situation for my sons.

My concern is this: it's a pretty effective propaganda/manipulation tool to put stories like these out for public consumption in such a way that public perception is led to believe that it is much, much, much more probable, or more frequent, than reality, while de-emphasizing actual rape.

[davidn3600]

85. When it comes to rape accusations...you are guilty until proven innocent

And then sometimes even when you prove yourself innocent, it isn't enough to prevent a prosecution.. Just look at the Duke Lacrosse case. People believed the accuser without any shred of evidence. Feminists, Al Sharpton, NAACP, etc.. the mob didn't care about the truth.

Right now, there are several cases working through the court system of men who have been expelled or suspended from school based on nothing at all but an allegation and not a shred of evidence.

Even 28 Harvard law professors have come together to strongly condemn new college campus rules regarding sexual assault allegations. They say it violates the rights of due process, current laws, and Title IX of the Civil Rights Act....
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-10-15/harvard-law-professors-condemn-campus-sexual-assault-policy

The American justice system is based on the premise that guilt must be proven in a court of law beyond reasonable doubt. Every modern system of law in the civilized and democratic world is based on this premise. It's unfortunate that we have radical elements in our midst that want this changed in situations that suit their agenda.

[geek tragedy]

88. so your stance is that men being accused of rape is a bigger problem than men

getting away with rape?

P.S. An accusation from an alleged victim is evidence, whether it be rape, fraud, etc.

P.P.S. This person was not prosecuted.

P.P.P.S. You have zero doubts this anonymous story is 100% truthful, accurate, and honest?

[davidn3600]

92. My stance is that rape is a crime, and like all crimes they must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt

Benjamin Franklin said it's "better 100 guilty go free than put a single innocent in jail."

Humans tried it the other way around several times throughout history where people are guilty until proven innocent. It was disastrous. It led to incredible abuses of power and violations of human rights. Such a system should never exist in the modern world.

If the accusation is considered evidence, so too is the other side of the story. And if a prosecutor or grand jury says the accusation doesn't rise to the level of guilt beyond reasonable doubt...then there is no case.

[geek tragedy]

126. I disagree that it's better to have 100 rapists on the

loose so they can rape between them hundreds if not thousands of women than it is to have one guy get thrown in jail wrongly.

[seabeyond]

129. the poster says this often. i cannot fathom the need to repeatedly state a 100 rapists

should walk, even with one innocent.

as much as we enjoy that saying, some seem to enjoy more the verbal depiction of a 100 rapists allowed to rape.

and more

[davidn3600]

141. You are taking the quote too literally...

Another way to put it would be that putting an innocent person in jail is an injustice that is 100 times worse than letting a guilty person go free.

What's worse in your mind, that Darren Wilson and George Zimmerman is walking free OR an innocent man served 30 years for a murder and rape he didn't commit?

Which is a worse injustice in your mind?

[seabeyond]

146. No. I am not gonna hunt past post, but no. I am not. Your position has benn made clear

[NaturalHigh]

182. I feel sorry for the one innocent guy you are willing to sacrifice.

If I had my way, every rapist on the planet would rot in a dank hole forever, but I still believe in the whole "innocent until proven guilty" concept.

[lumberjack_jeff]

168. In the legal system, nearly true. In college, literally true.

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/10/did-harvard-go-too-far/381515/

[LeftyMom]

110. The Guardian shouldn't host MRA fanfiction and neither should DU.

This isn't even a convincing made-up scenario.

[hughee99]

134. Posting "false rape/sexual assault allegation" stories should be against the DU rules.

I don't read them and neither should DUers.

[NaturalHigh]

169. Absolutely! And let's ban some more topics we don't want to see...

on a DISCUSSION board!

This is sarcasm, by the way. If you don't like a particular subject, feel free not to click on it.

[hughee99]

188. Mine actually was as well...

sarcasm, I mean.

[NaturalHigh]

189. Oops. Sorry about that.

I've actually seen the same thing expressed without sarcasm.

[hughee99]

207. I understand, that's basically what I was responding to as well

[Odin2005]

114. So many people jumping to conclusions in this thread.

And so many people thinking teens having sex is statutory rape.

[moriah]

135. Apparently, so did the person who wrote the piece. Claiming that a 2-year age difference was....

... meaningful in some way to his charges.

Had he been much older, it would have been that way in my state. At 16, you can be arrested for having sex with a 13-year-old, or at 15 with a 12-year-old.

[LexVegas]

121. I call bullshit on this bullshit.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

136. I smell bullshit. Maybe I just have a cold.

[seaglass]

160. Me too. Doesn't help that the letter-writer got paid for it.

A letter to ...
We will pay £25 for every Letter to we publish. Email [e-mail] or write to Family Life, The Guardian, Kings Place, 90 York Way, London N1 9GU. Please include your address and phone number

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/series/aletterto

[Matrosov]

147. Perhaps he should be angry at his fellow males

If his story is true and she actually falsely accused him of rape rather than him raping her and then claiming she consented, perhaps he should take his anger and frustration out on his fellow males.

It's very simple. False accusations are uncommon compared to the number of verified rapes, and they are extremely rare when you consider the countless rapes that go unreported each year.

His story would be easier to believe if so many men didn't have an inability to keep their urges in check.

[MattBaggins]

159. And the poster has of course not returned

Post and scurry on back to DI

[Rhinodawg]

162. Bingo !!!!

nt

[Starry Messenger]

172. One time, at band camp...

[seaglass]

177. Are you happy now sibelian?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/111414334#post2

http://www.democraticunderground.com/111414334#post9

[seabeyond]

190. wow. so the purpose was a flamebait thread and sit with buddies to laugh at duers?

upset over rape of a 13 yr old, or a false claim against a 15yr old? or MRA talking point that false claims exceed actual rapes?

this was for the OP's amusement?

pathetic.

fuck

i do take note that he does not participate in this thread. just gather his guys around him to see if he stirred shit, and insult

why i may address him differently than others in that group? i respected him more. now he has let us know exactly what he is about. i do not respect that.

[seaglass]

191. well, those posts were about a different topic but the mindset is the same.

I don't know why this thread would be viewed as anything more than flamebait. This is a discussion forum, the OP did not engage in any discussion. The first responses were within 15 minutes of the thread being posted. Maybe he needed to run out for milk.

[seabeyond]

192. ah. thanks.

well. with some on the thread, i appreciated where they took me in thought.

[NaturalHigh]

193. I doubt very seriously this is a "flamebait thread and sit with buddies to laugh at duers"...

Maybe it's something for people to think about and discuss. Just because you don't take the subject seriously doesn't mean that nobody else does.

What is so insulting about posting an op-ed piece from a news site?

[seaglass]

194. It's not an op-ed piece it's a paid letter to the editor. Of course it was posted as flamebait. n/t

[NaturalHigh]

197. You are welcome to your opinion, of course.

I assume I'm still allowed to disagree.

[seabeyond]

199. as we tell republicans. there is a difference between fact and opinion. right?

[NaturalHigh]

202. Yes there is.

That's a point you might like to consider too.

[seabeyond]

203. omg. lol. ok. well. i am done. i made my points. i have no need for a back and forth

[NaturalHigh]

204. Fair enough.

[seaglass]

205. Why wouldn't you be allowed to have an opinion? I'm just pointing out that it was not an op-ed

it was a letter that the writer was paid for. We just disagree on the OPs intent.

[seabeyond]

195. 1. i did think/discuss evident by my posts. 2. obviously i take this seriously, hence,

my serious posts in this thread. 3. intent matters which was a part of the serious discussion in this thread, you will note, if you are at all observant.

see how some like to redefine posters?

what seaglass did (see, more serious on the reasons certain posters post certain things.) was show us past behavior that squares with present behavior. that matters. we do the same when we discuss fox news or any number of propaganda groups.

piece of cake for me.

[NaturalHigh]

198. Oh yes, I "see how some like to redefine posters."

I've seen it for a long time.

[seabeyond]

200. yet, you did not acknowledge your errors i pointed out.

[NaturalHigh]

201. From what little I understood of your reply...

I didn't see any factual errors.

[1StrongBlackMan]

179. I wonder if ...

the 13 year old girl's recollection matches his?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

210. sometimes I wish we could hear ...

The Rest of The Story.

...

Good ... Day !

[bluestateguy]

206. The fact that a problem is "rare" does not mitigate its seriousness

In the grand scheme of things, perhaps false accusations are "rare", but it would be wrong to simply dismiss this man's experience as an abberation or just collateral damage in a broader effort to apprehend real rapists.