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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy aren't minorities carrying openly?
The way I see it, the next time some group of hillbillies starts flaunting their second amendment rights, groups of minorities should pick up their legally-owned firearms, walk right over, introduce themselves, and join right in.
Why can white freaks parade around with assault rifles, but a twelve year old black kid with a toy gun doesn't last a minute after a cop arrives?
When I was twelve, we ran all over with all kinds of toy guns, even bb guns. Never worried about such a stupid, terrified (chicken?) cop thinking I might be some threat.
Granted that was the eighties. But those white trash guys with real guns aren't being shot these days either.
So if minorities got out and open-carried more often, maybe white people would get used to it.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)He was African American.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)And he stuck out like a sore thumb. That said, one Black does not a group of open-carry minorities make.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)As far as I know they've never had any problems with the police.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Stellar
(5,644 posts)they prefer shooting down non-threatening civilians, with BB guns or air rifles.
The easier targets, they can kill.
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)..but without the
A larger group...even a small group... of armed minorities would be a deterrent to the present "shoot first" policy.
The idea of a small incident turning into a big firefight might deter some of the police exuberance.
Stellar
(5,644 posts)the sarcasm. But I agree with you.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Stellar
(5,644 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Last edited Sun Dec 7, 2014, 11:18 AM - Edit history (1)
While I don't advocate a community taking thus or that action (that's their business), it doesn't keep me from keeping a cool head about what a publicly-armed presence in a community of color might mean. LEOs are singularly ill-equipped to deal with anything more than a drunken riot after the big game: They are loathe to deal with twenty-thirty-who knows? people armed with shotguns and rifles, marching down the street. It's not their job, and calling in the guard just to confront a group is a Big Deal. These demonstrations might have a positive effect if they "move the talks forward" and all that.
Again, it's their community.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Some White radio station personality hired him to parade around the the rally because he thought it would be a hoot. Sorta like the Black security guy at Bundy Ranch. The only way to get Black people to show up at these thinly veiled White Power rallies is to pay them.
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)NOT a good idea IMNSHO!
Response to Lil Missy (Reply #4)
Sweeney This message was self-deleted by its author.
helpmetohelpyou
(589 posts)Warpy
(111,339 posts)The problem with cops overreacting to BB guns is that chickenshit civilians have made hysterical 911 calls embellishing the calm situations of a kid out playing in a park and a man shopping at Walmart as being immediately dangerous to people in the area. That's why the cops shot, they just saw a gun and reacted.
Part of that is the training that makes them react when someone else has a weapon. They've stopped giving the person with the weapon time to put it down/drop it/hand it over.
There is nothing you can do about racist chickenshits who lie to 911 because they're afraid of anyone with skin darker than theirs. The change has to happen with the cops.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It was the 911 operator who left off the caveats that the caller had included, probably a kid, probably a toy.
The caller may not have gotten close enough to accurately judge the age of the kid and the reality of the gun (which can be impossible even for experts at any distance these days).
On the other hand it's absolutely clear that the caller for the Walmart shooting didn't fear the victim, his wife was riding an electric scooter with a broken ankle and they stayed at a "safe distance" from someone with what they claimed was a high powered rifle.
http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/news/news/report-shooting-beavercreek-wal-mart/ngxN2/
"He got on his cell phone right after he walked past me," April Ritchie said. Ritchie was on her cell phone, talking with her mother. She had broken an ankle and was riding a scooter.
They followed the man at a safe distance and Ronald Ritchie, a former Marine, called 911 at 8:21 p.m.
"Anytime I saw people walking his way, I would get their attention," April Ritchie said, waving her hands for the reporters to demonstrate what she did. She said at one point, a family was standing next to the man with the rifle, but didn't notice the rifle. The man turned to look at them with a stare she described as if he was telling them, "don't come near me."
brush
(53,843 posts)The man turned to look at them with a stare she described as if he was telling them, "don't come near me."
That "don't come near me" assumption is clearly from the mind of the busybody and sounds alarmingly close to Darren Wilsons, "he looked like a demon."
Those people, who later recanted some of what they told the police dispatcher, got Crawford killed.
There ought to be something done about them.
stone space
(6,498 posts)hadrons
(4,170 posts)I think he said he was scared (I don't remember but he didn't really sound it,) but that caller said THREE times that it's probably a toy ... and I wouldn't want some kid pointing a bb gun at people (those things can blind people) so I can understand the reason to call to get it out of his hands.
Walmart caller was a complete asshole and should have been arrested for reporting a false 911 call though.
But your greater point is true; lots of chickenshit civilians calling the cops on Blacks for no good reason. I'm White and I remember certain areas with older White people and I would get stared and stared by these people when I was younger with them thinking I was up to no good (young people = 'up to no good' to them) and this was long before cell phones ... fast-forward and you still have these scary-cats but now with cell phones.
Response to ArcticFox (Original post)
Sweeney This message was self-deleted by its author.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)...right up to the 1968 GCA. Even a chief backer of that law conceded as much.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)will exclude blacks, but that's where segregation will defeat them.
Sure, small municipalities like Fergie are predominately minority populated with white government but in large cities like Atlanta and DC that isn't so. There are minority-owned gun-shops in those towns. A minority official will follow the letter of those laws rather than intent and if a responsible black or Hispanic citizen that meets the criteria applies for a carry permit it will be granted.
I'm personally certain that our minorities are discretely arming themselves.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)he is a Democrat, though highly critical of liberal attitudes toward guns for self-defense. The BBC did a live broadcast from his business last year.
According to Gallup, in a survey released in 2012, the fastest-growing demographics within the gun-owning community were women and self-I.D'd Democrats. I have not seen any recent trends among minority populations.
Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #53)
Sweeney This message was self-deleted by its author.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)problem, esp. Outside the relative security of your home. It is more difficult when SD becomes a complex of community need. I don't presume to tell anyone or community how to deal with it, and I'm damned sure not going to deny that right.
The usual debate over gun policy and rights short-circuits when advocates for SD turn out not to be the "usual suspects!"
Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #71)
Sweeney This message was self-deleted by its author.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)It seems to support my premise, though stats on minority ownership would be most interesting.
I doubt the NRA bothers with researching it. They're all about white folks w/ guns and discount minorities, to welcome those people would rob them of the support of their hateful membership base.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)they are well aware of "minority" concerns and are actively working to recruit different folks, or at least re-frame the debate. They have a problem with the likes of Ted Nugent, et al, so their efforts are undercut from the start, or at least ham-handed.
I think if there is an increase in minority gun-ownership, it might follow the model of long-term expansion of female gun ownership, estimated to have doubled in the last 10+ yrs. Women formed their own clubs, web sites, organizations, etc. Way beyond "Ladies Night" at the range, though that still goes on. The NRA is still playing catch-up with this phenomenon. Christ, there are at least two rather large and active womens' gun groups in the Austin area.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)like equality representation in my lifetime. Just my opinion but I find the leadership to be the nastiest sort of Dominionist filth. I wouldn't even entertain the notion of joining despite their tokenism efforts.
But thanks for that information about their outreach. I'll admit I detest them so strongly I pay no attention to them other than reports on their political activity here on DU.
Hope my bitter tone didn't offend, none of those remarks include you. I just can't help lashing out when I hear that acronym.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)would be well advised to do it on their own and not wait for the NRA to "help." The only real need for NRA services would be in training & certifying.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)I have no particular objection to firearms. I'm not a grabber (though I'll admit poking some of the more aggressive Gungeoneers with a stick sometimes. Since I'm out of range... ).
I would like to see better controls in place; extremely stiff sentences for any gun-related misbehavior (including negligence), tougher qualification standards for carry-permits, and licensing fees for ownership.
I carry, occasionally. As a Progressive living in the Confederacy I deem it wise to be prepared for trouble I surely don't seek. Road-Rage is a participant-sport in the South. Perhaps elsewhere, but certainly here.
My wife carries, a 2" stainless Airweight .38Sp (ported), when she backpacks w/ her dog. There have been numerous attacks on female hikers lately.
I don't want to threadjack this important OP, so I'll step out of this sub-thread. Tx for the discussion.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)reducing many jailable offences to misdeamenor and ticketed status. So far so good, but those offenses include theft of many firearms. Peculiar for a state which is chafing at the bit to enact more gun control legislation.
Response to Feral Child (Reply #40)
Sweeney This message was self-deleted by its author.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)I'm merely stating the obvious flaws in attempts to keep arms out of the possession of minorities.
I don't get, nor do i want, to dictate strategy for minorities. I'm considered white, although my father was Native American. Life is easier for white dudes and I wasn't raised as Amerind. As a white man it would be the utmost of arrogance and presumption to attempt to make rules for how minorities defend themselves and their children.
If you want to shoulder the White Man's Burden, knock yourself out. Don't expect your efforts to meddle to be welcome, however. I believe that minorities have had enough of patronizing whites, including well-intended progressives.
Response to Feral Child (Reply #63)
Sweeney This message was self-deleted by its author.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)Unfortunately, those responsible paths are intentionally blocked. Sometimes violence is necessary, not to redress wrongs, but to actually survive repression and the violence of others.
Minority children and youth are being attacked and killed by the instruments of our society, under color of law. Occasionally, when vigilantes take it upon themselves to kill minority persons for imagined slights, our justice system fails to punish and the murderer becomes a wealthy celebrity, lauded and laurel-ed by that very system. Most often, the murders are rubber-stamped and the affair buried with the bodies of the slain.
I'm afraid that, despite being "freed" by civil war over 100 years ago that they have endure lynchings, shootings, draggings, false-imprisonment, disenfranchisement and daily harassment since being gaining their "freedom. It may be that violence is their only option. If there are violent reactions to this treatment, I can't condemn it.
Thanks for the courteous discussion, Sweeny. I've enjoyed it.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)They would only use it as an excuse to shoot them.
world wide wally
(21,754 posts)around like rednecks, the NRA won't be so eager to fight every gun law ever attempted.
ArcticFox
(1,249 posts)That would be an excellent added benefit.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Psst. Don't tell anyone, but the Huey P. Newton Gun Club doesn't exist. Photoshopped.
brush
(53,843 posts)That photo would be very hard to Photoshop.
I know that because I use Photoshop everyday the CC version on the cloud been using it since before it even had layers, version 2.5.
I remember reports of this group in Texas from a couple of months ago. Just curious what the proof of your post is?
And did you know that the original Black Panther Party started by Huey P. Newton and Bobby Seale came about because of very similar circumstances that exist now. Black people were being brutalized and killed by racist police in Oakland, Ca., so to me, the existence of this group is very plausible.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)I believe my #29 cleared it up.
Being armed doesn't guarantee a thing except a fighting chance against similarly-armed thugs who might be as white as the inside of my wrist. And it just might back off the worst kinds, as with the Deacons in LA.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)And he was murdered within 3 seconds of police arriving on the scene.
Black Panther leader Fred Hampton (who advocated and practiced blacks policing
their own neighborhoods, guns and all) was murdered in his bed at 5 am 45 years ago yesterday.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/25/1309370/-Another-Texas-WTF-Open-Carry-Gun-Extremists-To-Prance-Through-Black-Neighborhood
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)I'm not necessarily opposed to blacks doing open-carry, but I'm not in a position to decide that for anyone else.
I'm white, progressive, pacifist who got caught up in the Watts Riot in 1965 quite by accident.
If I were to venture an opinion however, I'd feel horrid if I had advocated for blacks arming themselves to the teeth, and then have them all get promptly gunned down for their trouble.
The two black boys shot by cops for having replicas (one in Target and another in a park in Ohio) should tell us something about how "ready" the cops are to do just that "as needed".
I will say that I am NOT opposed to blacks arming-up. They have every right to do so for self-defense, just like anybody else, but I hesitate to actively advocate for it, for the above reasons.
peace out.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)activism is to not tell any group, race or community how to run their show. My main concern is that some fellow DUers are not quite so willing to abide by a central (and common sense) tenant of black liberation politics: Help, or not, when asked; otherwise, mind your own bidness.
ileus
(15,396 posts)If someone actually engages in OC they know there's such a thing as brandishing. When in public be it OC or CC you never remove your firearm from the holster.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Not sure what these mean.
ileus
(15,396 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)...to great effect. They even carried rifles at the California state legislature.
Their reasons for doing so were the same as now: cops attacking, beating and killing black men and boys.
ArcticFox
(1,249 posts)Murders of JFK, RFK, and MLK (and others we'll never know): incredible coincidence, or strategic attack achieving fifty years of defeat. Which do you believe?
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)calling for the government to stop them. The Black Panthers started out trying to protect their people from police brutality then and law enforcement with the help of the media and government painted them as criminals equal to the terrorists of today and the white racist citizenry joined in. A close honest reading of their history ought to tell anyone that black people are not supposed to or allowed to protect themselves like the white supremacists militants are allowed to do. And the folks behind the NRA were screaming the loudest back then.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)You know, about the HPNGC? When will they start screaming?
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)couldn't ban open carry fast enough. I think it took about a month.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)a . . . get ready for it . . . gun control measure. GASP! Yup, the Mulford act was signed specifically in response to the 'black terror.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act
baldguy
(36,649 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)beating. You could look right at that video and see with your own eyes the beating didn't occur -- just like the happenings in posts 1 and 3 didn't occur. It's all fake when laid up against The Narrative.
brush
(53,843 posts)I don't get what you're getting at with this and the "Huey Newton gun club photo is photoshopped posts.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)1) Contemparaneous photos of OC blacks (there are others, btw)
2) Recent OC HPNGC members without whites protecting them (as alleged by one poster)
3) No OC blacks shot dead in these (and other) recent photos, as was predicted by another.
Rodney King? A jury looked right at that video and decided something else happened as well; I.e., pictures don't mean shit in the face of "overwhelming" narrative mindsets.
I hope this clarifies.
On edit: Another, #27. The hits just keep coming.
brush
(53,843 posts)And what does OC blacks mean?
Your posts are still not clear to me.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)All I can say is the Narratives of what will happen to blacks should they OC WILL CONTINUE to fly in the face of the pictures -- events -- within the last year.
BTW, the Narrative WILL be repeated mechanistically should a thousand armed blacks walk down the streets of Burmingham tomorrow. Lord knows, the HPNGC demos in Dallas were roundly ignored.
One of the better lines in cinematic history came from The Wizard of Oz:
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
brush
(53,843 posts)The acronyms you use are not that easily understood
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)It has had a number of OC demonstrations in the Dallas area over the last couple of years. The latest had them present grievances before government buildings in Dallas. Might have been a white guy in that one.
In the wake of Ferguson when there was some talk about an armed, primarily white group coming to that town to defend something, an internet discussion developed between presumably armed whites and blacks over dress "style." Those modeling after HPNGC preferred formality and discipline, complimenting the quasi-black uniforms, as it suggested responsibility and purposefulness. The interchange was cordial and the white person took note.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Geez, a 12 year old boy with a toy gun just got shot dead. Martin was carrying fucking Skittles and cell phone that he was talking on when Zimmerman ID's him as a thread--and that was supposedly okay because Martin was wearing a hoodie in the rain. Garner was allegedly carrying loosies.
Can you imagine what would happen if a group of adult, large males of color open carried actual, loaded guns?
And it doesn't matter whether the LEOS are also people of color. People of color internalize the crap society puts on them, maybe not as much as other groups do, but they do internalize it. You can't help it.
For just a few examples, women have told me that they "just" feel more comfortable with a male doctor or a male lawyer; the African American LEO with JIM CROWley sided with him and not Professor Gates and even white women with curly hair straighten it.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)Mutual aggressive displays will only provide the opportunity for escalation.
If the currant climate of open-racism and open-carry continues; if the police keep murdering blacks and Hispanics,
minorities will be forced to defend themselves.
They will do so quite ably and without the melodramatic display.
These faux-Confederate "warriors" live in a fantasy where the South Rises Again, they love to role-play their romantic misconception of war, but things have changed dramatically since 1865.
The military is an attractive path for young minority people. Many, many of them have combat experience from serving in the Dominionist wars.
They are trained, confident of their abilities and as willing to defend themselves here as they did there. They won't "play soldiers", they'll just do what's necessary to survive.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)old for a 20-mile forced march, but I can still help dig trenches! And my wife tells me I cook a mean spaghetti sauce. (Something about an army survives on its stomach!
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)achieve redress without the need for violence. I've witnessed and engaged in armed violence, unfortunately in a non-righteous cause. Sadly, I'm afraid that violence may be the only solution since this country has shown, in the time since the Civil War, to be uncaring and immune to reason and incapable of evolving past racism.
Violence changes everyone involved or even witnessing it, no less even though the cause may be just. I sincerely regret my past involvement.
I can't speak for the future, other than the injustice can be tolerated no longer.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)a chance to read and consider for its implications:
Law-enforcement resources are now distributed so unevenly, and justice is being administered with such brazen inconsistency, that people everywhere are going to start questioning the basic political authority of law enforcement. And they're mostly going to be right to do it, and when they do, it's going to create problems that will make the post-Ferguson unrest seem minor . . . .
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-police-in-america-are-becoming-illegitimate-20141205
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)Thanks for the link (b'kmarked), and nice talking to you!
gollygee
(22,336 posts)then African American men with guns are seen as inherent immediate threats and will get killed.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)And to good effect.
There is a reason why so many gun control laws have racist roots. Disarming people makes them easier to abuse.
That said, I would rather see more minorities get their concealed carry permits and carry. Two reasons- first here in NC if you are carrying you must identify yourself as a CCW holder who is carrying when you encounter an officer. And officers react almost always positively to this- because a person with a CCW is seen by LE as a "good guy", one who had passed an extensive background check, has no felonies or violent crimes in their past, and who has shown they want to follow the law.
Second, because more minorities with the ability to resist scares the hell out of yeh racists and bigots.
hack89
(39,171 posts)We need to reduce the number of minorities being killed, not throw gas on the fire to make a political point.
liberalhistorian
(20,819 posts)chance of them being shot on sight if they did? Sad, but true.
onecaliberal
(32,894 posts)Like the man in Walmart and the little 12 year old boy. The irrational fear of unarmed black men is enough to shoot and kill for these cops let alone armed.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)It would be a mass murder. The cops would gun them all down. We all know how that would turn out, VERY badly.
former9thward
(32,077 posts)Just as whites. Concealed. Which is how you should carry a weapon outside the home. Only the tiniest fraction of people who carry, carry openly. There is no point to it. To suggest that it is race based is silly and demonstrates a lack of knowledge of who has a gun.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Because more black people would die via cops and scared white people with guns.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Darren Wilson is not the only person who describes the physical appearance of a black man as scary. It is a common response. I remember Obama mentioning that his grandma told him she was afraid to ride the elevator when black men were on it.
"Fear" has become a legitimate reason for shooting someone in self defense. White people (especially those who have limited interactions with minorities) are more likely to fear them. Thus the starting point is a justification for "self defense." Throw a gun in the mix, and another open carrier might be able to tell a jury that he\she was terrified. The result is the cycle of open season on black men is expanded.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)that there be a GROUP doing the open carry rather than an individual. And I would recommend some sort of military style training for the militia group. Everybody has the right to self-defense and it certainly doesn't seem like they're going to get defended by the cops.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)The group of minorities open carrying should wear some sort of "uniform" and that uniform should be widely publicized in the communities where the militia is organized. Exactly like the original Panthers did. I've still got a black beret around here somewhere.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)Socal31
(2,484 posts)If done legally, there is no reason anyone should be denied the right to OC.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Runningdawg
(4,522 posts)to me it gives away your biggest advantage - surprise. I would like to see more minorities step up and exercise their 2nd amendment rights. But I think if this is done openly it is best done as a group. One man or woman openly carrying is just a walking target for the loons.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)a far thornier question replete with different dangers when compared with individual self-defense. From my view, an identifiable group which is in some significant measure supported by its community may have a positive effect on the powers that be. LEOs can handle a small riot in the park, but not a formal armed presence. They would have to call in the Guard (with little legal justification to do so), or pull off some midnight round-up and then whistle down Broadway like no one in this day & age will ever find out. Then face the consequences of that bald escalation.
Vinca
(50,303 posts)How about the poor guy carrying Walmart merchandise - a gun - around the store and they shot him for shopping?
ileus
(15,396 posts)maced666
(771 posts)Not much on derogatory black name calling. Why is that?
ArcticFox
(1,249 posts)Poor choice of words maybe, but I've noticed that poor black people are always considered "thugs", even if they become quite successful in life (eg, SL Rams who were derided as from the ghetto after they did the hands up thing). I hear similar every day about various black people, but cannot recall hearing similar sentiments about a white person even though I'm quite aware many poor white people engage in "thuggery".
krispos42
(49,445 posts)And one tenant of the Democratic party is that only RW nutjobs open carry. Ergo, the potential pool of people inclined to open-carry is much smaller.
When the Black Panthers carried openly in California, Governor Ronald Reagan couldn't sign a gun-control bill to stop that fast enough.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)society to a greater extent than your typical non-minority gun toter. If you look at groups that oppose proliferation of guns in our society, you'll see a lot of minorities, especially moms.
More guns are acquired, sold, fondled and carried in this country because of the owners' fear and hatred of minorities than any other reason. Lax gun laws are enacted for the same reason by the NRA and right wing legislators -- look at Stand Your Ground and similar Zimmerman laws.
B2G
(9,766 posts)And as for the whole 'open carry' meme...
How many here have actually seen someone openly carrying a firearm?
Scary internet pictures don't count.
Fla Dem
(23,741 posts)A blackman with a gun is going to kill people, don't you know?
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/cops-shoot-and-kill-man-holding-toy-gun-walmart
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/ohio-wal-mart-where-cops-shot-black-man-pulls-pellet-n215156
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/30/police-officer-shot-john-crawford-walmart-lied-victims-mother-says
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/09/24/3571699/grand-jury-wont-charge-cops-in-wal-mart-killing-even-as-video-reveals-victim-never-pointed-his-gun/
Response to ArcticFox (Original post)
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ArcticFox
(1,249 posts)But I think the racial disparities are pretty blatant.