Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

pampango

(24,692 posts)
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 01:09 PM Dec 2014

"Since 2003, it's not China but Germany, that colossus of European socialism, that has either led

the world in export sales or at least been tied for first. Even as we in the United States fall more deeply into the clutches of our foreign creditors -- China foremost among them -- Germany has somehow managed to create a high-wage, unionized economy without shipping all its jobs abroad or creating a massive trade deficit, or any trade deficit at all. And even as the Germans outsell the United States, they manage to take six weeks of vacation every year. They're beating us with one hand tied behind their back."

European social democracies -- particularly Germany -- have some lessons and models that might make life a lot more livable. Germans have six weeks of federally mandated vacation, free university tuition, and nursing care. But you've heard the arguments for years about how those wussy Europeans can't compete in a global economy. You've heard that so many times, you might believe it. But like so many things, the media repeats endlessly, it's just not true.

Americans don't know how things actually work in European countries. For many people the fact that Germany is neck and neck with China as the number one exporting country -- give or take the rise and fall of currency - must be mind blowing. Even progressives in America don't look overseas for models that work. I find it almost pathological that our exceptionalism infects even those who assume they don't believe in it.

Many Americans think that we've got a trade deficit because we can't compete with China. We've got a trade deficit because we can't compete with Germany in selling things to China. Until people wake up and look at the kinds of things that the Germans are doing to keep their manufacturing base, we're going to continue to run deficits which leave us in the clutches of foreign creditors and compromise our autonomy as a country.

Even progressive Democrats don't have the sophistication of their counterparts on the left in France and Germany in terms of understanding how important it is not to run up a national debt. Here we march against Mexico and put up tariff walls. They don't do that in Europe, they're not that unsophisticated.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/why-germany-has-it-so-much-better-us

Even progressives in America don't look overseas for models that work ... our exceptionalism infects even those who assume they don't believe in it.

Wages in Germany are comparable to and in some industries exceed those of American workers. Germans of course have much stronger unions and social services.

Germany trades with China much more than the US does. Trade with China is a 50% larger part (4.8%) of the German economy than it is in the US (3.2%).
16 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
"Since 2003, it's not China but Germany, that colossus of European socialism, that has either led (Original Post) pampango Dec 2014 OP
"Much stronger unions" -- that explains everything nichomachus Dec 2014 #1
I think that info is old LittleBlue Dec 2014 #2
Thanks for the update. pampango Dec 2014 #4
Germany is the engine that drives the EU. Wellstone ruled Dec 2014 #3
"How about this. VW and BMW will Unionize their US operations which are in Red State Right to Work." pampango Dec 2014 #6
So who doesn't have it as good so that Germany can? The2ndWheel Dec 2014 #5
I don't think we have to look far to see who is "on the other end of the spectrum". pampango Dec 2014 #7
WE are the ones who want military all over the world. That is not true of all those other countries. jwirr Dec 2014 #9
The US winning the 20th century is really all that's about The2ndWheel Dec 2014 #14
Are you saying that we really do not want all those bases? All these wars? All this military jwirr Dec 2014 #15
Germany had the good sense to keep their industry intact. We shipped our overseas. And thought jwirr Dec 2014 #8
Exactly. And their kept their unions intact, too. Strong unions and high taxes keep pampango Dec 2014 #10
The economists who developed the US plan were not very smart, were they? I am old enough to jwirr Dec 2014 #11
It might have been the fault of some economists, but I think powerful conservatives figured out pampango Dec 2014 #12
I agree. I have never belonged to a union because I never had one of those jobs but I am a strong jwirr Dec 2014 #13
Luxembourg and Germany top EU living standards table pampango Dec 2014 #16

nichomachus

(12,754 posts)
1. "Much stronger unions" -- that explains everything
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 01:55 PM
Dec 2014

The unions created the US middle class, which is why they had to be destroyed.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
2. I think that info is old
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 02:00 PM
Dec 2014

Exports-

China $2,210,000,000,000
Germany $1,493,000,000,000


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

The difference is probably greater due to China's intentional devaluation of the yuan and the strength of the euro.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
4. Thanks for the update.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 02:06 PM
Dec 2014

China (1.35 billion) has about 17 times the population of Germany (80 million) but only about 50% more exports. Still pretty impressive for Germany but not as much as if their export totals were about the same.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
3. Germany is the engine that drives the EU.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 02:01 PM
Dec 2014

What you have been getting as far as economic news here in the States is so tilted to the British Model of economics. London wants to be the money center of the globe. Well,not happening,have to look at what the UK just on the surface. They have moved their Manufacturing to low wage countries,this they did before the famous Jack Welsh GE found the new fashion of the year. Notice this,most of our major Banks that had or have problems started in London not in New York,test marketed in England and then the States. Northern Trust was the first to go down with the bogus mortgages,then away we go. As far as Germany goes,yes they had Banks involved in this scandal and it was their US branches that bought a ton of those so called AAA rated toilet paper bonds. Meanwhile,England and the US reverted to their Supply Side Trickle Down Wealth Transfer Models,fire the workers cause they are the problem and move more manufacturing to China,and by the way we get a Tax Refund for moving these jobs. Mean while little Germany made sure that there Companies kept their workers and strengthened their competitive edge. How about this.VW and BMW will Unionize their US operations which are in Red State Right to Work. The good old progressive Austrian Model is still the best. And the German Central Bank is now the go to Money Center

pampango

(24,692 posts)
6. "How about this. VW and BMW will Unionize their US operations which are in Red State Right to Work."
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 02:10 PM
Dec 2014

"England and the US reverted to their Supply Side Trickle Down Wealth Transfer Models ..." "Meanwhile little Germany made sure that there Companies kept their workers and strengthened their competitive edge."

Great thoughts. Thanks for posting them, Wellstone ruled.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
5. So who doesn't have it as good so that Germany can?
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 02:08 PM
Dec 2014

If Germany is a exporting powerhouse, some countries out there have to be on the other end of the spectrum. America used to be king of the hill back in the 50's, but the rest of the world was still rebuilding or not built at all. The US taxpayer is the one paying for a global military, while European nations are paying for social services, but benefiting from a military they're not paying for.

Nothing happens in a vacuum, so it can't simply be that Germany is great and smart and has everything figured out. There has to be a downside, somewhere, in relation to the upside that Germany is experiencing.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
7. I don't think we have to look far to see who is "on the other end of the spectrum".
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 02:29 PM
Dec 2014
America used to be king of the hill back in the 50's, but the rest of the world was still rebuilding or not built at all.

There were countries "on the other end of the spectrum" when America was the king of the hill. Germany was one of those countries that was rebuilding and on the other end of the spectrum.

The point of the OP was that Germany provides a framework for a strong middle class, strong unions, high wages and great benefits and social services. If many other countries adopted a model similar to Germany's (unlikely at least here with conservative opposition in the US), Germany's trade surplus might diminish. Every country cannot simultaneously have a trade surplus. Germans' standard of living might be slightly be reduced but any reduction would be shared more evenly than it would here and their standard of living would go on.

Rather than learn from what works there and elsewhere "even progressives in America don't look overseas for models that work ... our exceptionalism infects even those who assume they don't believe in it."

Most of us here do not believe in American exceptionalism. But too many ignore the lessons that can be learned from other progressive countries. We seem to want to invent a uniquely "American" progressivism. Progressives elsewhere in the world are happy to learn from the mistakes and successes of progressives in other places.



jwirr

(39,215 posts)
9. WE are the ones who want military all over the world. That is not true of all those other countries.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 02:36 PM
Dec 2014

You need to read "The Sorrows of Empire" by Chalmers Johnson. Also his book "Blowback".

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
14. The US winning the 20th century is really all that's about
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 03:30 PM
Dec 2014

No, all those other countries had their shot. England didn't want to lose their empire. Germany didn't want to lose. Japan didn't want to lose. The Soviet Union kept going until they couldn't.

The US military is the developed world's military by default. Last one standing. That's why the US Government can bomb whoever it wants. That's why the US Government can torture people, and we won't have bombs falling on our cities, or get economically sanctioned by the UN, and nobody will go to jail. Nobody important anyway.

All those other countries are just fine with the way the system is. They can pay for their social programs, and all their citizens are happy. The US taxpayer pays for the global military that keeps the international system viable. Nobody listens to the UN without the US military backing it up, and even then it's a little iffy.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
15. Are you saying that we really do not want all those bases? All these wars? All this military
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 03:44 PM
Dec 2014

equipment? Of curse the other countries want us to pay for it - they learned the hard way by overextending themselves through military spending until their systems fell. We still are learning.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
8. Germany had the good sense to keep their industry intact. We shipped our overseas. And thought
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 02:32 PM
Dec 2014

we were going to continue as a great nation. Really?

pampango

(24,692 posts)
10. Exactly. And their kept their unions intact, too. Strong unions and high taxes keep
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 02:55 PM
Dec 2014

industries thinking of long term viability rather than how to maximize profits in the next quarter. (With high taxes CEO's aren't going to keep that much of next quarter's profits anyway.) German unions helped industries look to the future knowing that they had to focus on high-quality exports to succeed even if it did not happen in the next quarter or two. Strong American unions could have done the same.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
11. The economists who developed the US plan were not very smart, were they? I am old enough to
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 03:01 PM
Dec 2014

remember the good old days and this is not anything like it. We had good paying jobs. We had a middle class. We could afford homes etc. We and our children got to go to college. The only things that are better today is that we have ACA and even that would be better as a single payer plan.

Now if I were the 1% I would not agree but then they don't have an allegiance to our country and people anymore so they do not count.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
12. It might have been the fault of some economists, but I think powerful conservatives figured out
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 03:12 PM
Dec 2014

that weakening unions - starting with Taft-Hartley in 1947 over the veto of Harry Truman - would allow them to concentrate more power (economic and political) in their own hands.

Then under Reagan unions were weakened further and taxes and regulations were lowered so that CEO's had incentives to think short term and manipulate the markets - how can we maximize profits next quarter to bump up the stock price? - since their finances were much better with stock options and low taxes on high incomes.

By then unions were not the counterweight to tendency of management to think short term that they are in Germany. Without strong unions in Germany their companies and CEO's might have done the same thing that ours did.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
13. I agree. I have never belonged to a union because I never had one of those jobs but I am a strong
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 03:28 PM
Dec 2014

union supporter. History taught me that the union not only helped working people but also the poor. Without the unions we are going to have no unity among the people. We will have only the power of speaking as one individual which is often ignored.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
16. Luxembourg and Germany top EU living standards table
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 03:58 PM
Dec 2014

Citizens in Luxembourg and Germany have the highest standard of living in the `EU, according to an index on individual consumption published on Thursday by Eurostat, the EU's statistics agency. Bulgarians and Romanians had the lowest living standards across the bloc.

http://euobserver.com/tickers/126877

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»"Since 2003, it's no...