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WillyT

(72,631 posts)
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 03:29 PM Dec 2014

Wow... Charles P. Pierce On The Torture Report...

The Torture Report, Part Two: What It Means
By Charles P. Pierce - Esquire
December 9, 2014


Interior of the courtroom at the Nuremberg Trials, 1946
Photo by Kurt Hutton/Picture Post/Getty Images


There were two forms of water torture. In the first, the victim was tied or held down on his back and cloth placed over his nose and mouth. Water was then poured on the cloth. Interrogation proceeded and the victim was beaten if he did not reply. As he opened his mouth to breathe or answer questions, water went down his throat until he could hold no more. Sometimes, he was then beaten over his distended stomach, sometimes a Japanese jumped on his stomach, or sometimes pressed on it with his foot. In the second, the victim was tied lengthways on a ladder, face upwards, with a rung of the ladder across his throat and head below the latter. In this position he was slid first into a tub of water and kept there until almost drowned. After being revived, interrogation proceeded and he would be reimmersed.

-- J.L. Wilson, Right Reverend Lord Bishop Of Singapore, Testimony To The International Military Tribunal For The Far East, December 16, 1946


************************************************************************************************


Today, with the release of the executive summary of the congressional investigation into the American torture program, we have lost forever the right to moral leadership that we claimed at Nuremberg, and at the tribunals that investigated the actions of the Japanese in the Pacific. Those proceedings were based in two fundamental beliefs: a) that there are some activities that are beyond the law, even in wartime, and b) that the people responsible for those activities, even the worst of them, deserve a fair trial, and a trial that is open to the world, not only because the world needed to see the savagery of which humans are capable, but also because the trial would demonstrate to the world that there is a better way to resolve the issues raised by the native savagery of which people and nations are capable than the masturbatory exercise of blind vengeance. Justice Robert Jackson, in his eloquent summation for the prosecution in the trial of the Nazi warlords, saw all of this with coruscating clarity.

As a military tribunal, this Tribunal is a continuation of the war effort of the Allied nations. As an International Tribunal, it is not bound by the procedural and substantive refinements of our respective judicial or constitutional systems, nor will its rulings introduce precedents into any country's- internal system of civil justice. As an International Military Tribunal, it rises above the provincial and transient and seeks guidance not only from international law but also from the basic principles of jurisprudence which are assumptions of civilization and which long have found embodiment in the codes of all nations. Of one thing we may be sure. The future will never have to ask, with misgiving, what could the Nazis have said in their favor. History will know that whatever could be said, they were allowed to say. They have been given the kind of a Trial which they, in the days of their pomp and power, never gave to any man.

But fairness is not weakness. The extraordinary fairness of these hearings is an attribute of our strength. The Prosecution's case, at its close, seemed inherently unassailable because it rested so heavily on German documents of unquestioned authenticity. But it was the weeks upon weeks of pecking at this case, by one after another of the defendants, that has demonstrated its true strength. The fact is that the testimony of the defendants has removed any doubt of guilt which, because of the extraordinary nature and magnitude of these crimes, may have existed before they spoke. They have helped write their own judgment of condemnation.


In 1996, they dedicated a statue of Justice Jackson at his hometown of Jamestown, in New York.

This is what the Senate report really means. We lost more than our phony "innocence" in what we allowed to happen in the country in the years following the attacks on September 11, 2001. We lost more than the scales from our eyes. We gave away our right to judge, anyone, anywhere, for the crimes that we committed out of rage and fear and deception. We betrayed the principles enunciated at Nuremberg. We sold out Robert Jackson for John Yoo.

They should drape that statue in black today.

They should drape that statue in black for a very, very long time.


<snip>

Link: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/The_Torture_Report_And_What_It_Means


33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Wow... Charles P. Pierce On The Torture Report... (Original Post) WillyT Dec 2014 OP
Makes me sick to my stomach. And keeps me in that state. calimary Dec 2014 #1
read the comments section grasswire Dec 2014 #29
I agree that the torture report is a new, grim milestone in our descent into despotism. appal_jack Dec 2014 #2
+1000++++++^^^^^^^^ 2banon Dec 2014 #6
Unfortunate Sweeney Dec 2014 #15
KnR, with tears and nausea. nt Hekate Dec 2014 #3
As the scales continue to fall from our eyes..... DeSwiss Dec 2014 #4
Thanks for mention Bertrand Russell, DeSwiss... 2banon Dec 2014 #9
Except...that it is :( Horse with no Name Dec 2014 #5
As a country we have lost the right to judge, but as individuals we have the obligation lostnfound Dec 2014 #7
Judge the whole form of our relationship. Sweeney Dec 2014 #17
As a country we have lost the right to judge, but as individuals we have the obligation lostnfound Dec 2014 #8
"We sold out Robert Jackson for John Yoo." KoKo Dec 2014 #10
"We sold out Robert Jackson for John Yoo. " zeemike Dec 2014 #11
This message was self-deleted by its author ErikJ Dec 2014 #12
Let me say at the outset that I rec this Algernon Moncrieff Dec 2014 #13
Do you think we should try to regain the moral high ground? JDPriestly Dec 2014 #27
Our nation needs to stop making expedient choices and adhere to our basic principles Algernon Moncrieff Dec 2014 #30
Great answer. I agree. Please post this as a new thread and send me a personal message JDPriestly Dec 2014 #32
The passionate for the wickedness polynomial Dec 2014 #14
K&R Solly Mack Dec 2014 #16
Kicked and recommended a whole bunch! Enthusiast Dec 2014 #18
Thanks for an insightful post. Thespian2 Dec 2014 #19
K&R nt raouldukelives Dec 2014 #20
K & R MrMickeysMom Dec 2014 #21
K & R nt LaydeeBug Dec 2014 #22
K/R marmar Dec 2014 #23
Sickening, but true MissDeeds Dec 2014 #24
Parts 1 & 3 (links at bottom of source piece) are well worth KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #25
IF (big word) we were an honest nation, we would chisel off George Washington and world wide wally Dec 2014 #26
R#138 & K n/t UTUSN Dec 2014 #28
What is lost in the debate LiberalLovinLug Dec 2014 #31
"We" didn't do shit. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #33

calimary

(90,023 posts)
1. Makes me sick to my stomach. And keeps me in that state.
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 05:11 PM
Dec 2014

No, Mr. President, I'm sorry. You've got it wrong. "It's not who we are." Um, WRONG.

This IS who we are. And this IS what we are. Proof-positive. The America we all grew up believing in, and being proud of - is gone. Dead. Buried.

Waterboarded to death.

 

appal_jack

(3,813 posts)
2. I agree that the torture report is a new, grim milestone in our descent into despotism.
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 05:13 PM
Dec 2014

But the post 9/11 torture is unfortunately not a new or unique strategy for America. The School of the Americas has been teaching these techniques to other despotic regimes for decades. Argentina, Chile, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaraguan Contras, etc.: all have studied at the knee of Uncle Sam.

I still believe in the higher ideal of an America predicated on equality, liberty, & justice. But during my whole life (I was in diapers when Kissinger was coordinating secret bombings in Laos), we have been steered further and further from that ideal by corrupt & venal 'leaders.'

k&r,

-app

Sweeney

(505 posts)
15. Unfortunate
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 06:43 PM
Dec 2014

is an unfortunate choice of words. Fortune has nothing to do with this, nor fate; this is people doing unto people as no one would have, with a clear moral choice. Or perhaps, better said is that this was un-pathoetic, if that is a word, and lacking in the bond tying all humanity to the whipping post of life.

These bastards can say all they want that they did it all for us, but no one gave them the right. They did it for their own reason and their own gain at our expense like common criminals. Now; if you think you are in a war with these people then the moral war must come before any physical or psychological or military victory over these people of God. Winning a military victory is a piss ant in a horse race. Short of destroying them all you just make the rest mad. Who in their right minds would take this as a moral choice. We are not just settling the debt of this war on our children, but the war itself. Without honor we cannot deal with people of honor. Without a common religion we have little chance for agreement, but we could have peace, and not without surrender of dead principals and flawed morals.

Let them win. Let's run along home and hide behind our mothers. I don't care how we do it, but fighting these people does not lead to victory. and if it leads to a moral defeat it makes any other kind of victory impossible. People do not war, but cultures, and we could hand them an atomic bomb and it would not change their culture which is durable beyond belief. We do not understand these people and anyone who thinks they will cave because some of us think we would is an insane reason to torture.

If we are right, stand fast; but defense is the best of victory. If we have something to defend in this dying society we need to defend it today and everyday. Resist this criminality. Resist this inhumanity. Stand up for right and resist.

Thanks...Sweeney

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
4. As the scales continue to fall from our eyes.....
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 05:20 PM
Dec 2014

... remember the words of Bertrand Russell:



K&R

lostnfound

(17,520 posts)
7. As a country we have lost the right to judge, but as individuals we have the obligation
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 05:27 PM
Dec 2014

We have the obligation to judge our elected leadership for those crimes.
I love our country but there is a higher power and a higher loyalty to principles of conscience, like justice and human dignity.

Sweeney

(505 posts)
17. Judge the whole form of our relationship.
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 06:50 PM
Dec 2014

If the social form of our relationship were at all functioning not a fraction of this would have happened. If we cannot stop the government from spreading horror, indignity and pain; we have no defense against them but our will to see right and justice done.

What they will do to them they will do to us, and with only a tweak of ideological programing.

This is like the terminator, or the matrix. Humanity is standing against those who have no souls. No one has a soul to worry about who has taken torture for his trade.

Sweeney

lostnfound

(17,520 posts)
8. As a country we have lost the right to judge, but as individuals we have the obligation
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 05:27 PM
Dec 2014

We have the obligation to judge our elected leadership for those crimes.
I love our country but there is a higher power and a higher loyalty to principles of conscience, like justice and human dignity.

Response to WillyT (Original post)

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,961 posts)
13. Let me say at the outset that I rec this
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 06:16 PM
Dec 2014

Having rec'd, my problem with Pierce's argument (as opposed to your post):

1) The US did torture some prisoners during WWII, although the number is small in comparison to what Germany did, and what we did more recently.
2) We put Americans of Japanese descent (not foreign nationals; not resident aliens) into concentration camps. We took no such measures against Americans of Italian or German descent on any wide scale.
3) We were selective in our prosecutions of Nazis inasmuch as we organized the relocation and hiding of the Gehlen organization because they held a great deal of intelligence on our new enemies, the Soviets.
4) We won WWII with a segregated army and navy.

While we were light years ahead of the Nazi's and Tojo's Japan on the human rights front, we weren't saints. "Innocent" is not the word that leaps to mind.

Then came the Cold War, and our CIA helped train (in some cases) or turned the blind-eye (in many other cases) to the more imaginative practices of the secret police of many nations (Iran, Argentina, Paraguay, Chile, Nicaragua). We think this report is bad; some of the nations we supported did worse things. Of course, most of our Cold War enemies also did despicable things.

...and we Americans have known about "enhanced interrogation", and we had a hint this kind of thing was taking place after Abu Graib.

Long story short: We gave away our right to judge a long time ago.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
27. Do you think we should try to regain the moral high ground?
Sat Dec 13, 2014, 01:49 PM
Dec 2014

If your answer is yes, how do you think we could or should do that?

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,961 posts)
30. Our nation needs to stop making expedient choices and adhere to our basic principles
Sat Dec 13, 2014, 03:13 PM
Dec 2014

We are ostensibly a nation that believes in free speech and media; impartial courts; fair and free elections; religious freedom without state interference or endorsement; the freedom to arm oneself (or the freedom for states within the nation to arm themselves - depending on one's interpretation); the right not to be compelled to self-incriminate and not to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment.

1: We need to practice what we preach. Admitting wrongdoing is a start. Prosecuting the wrongdoers would be better, although I harbor doubts as to whether this will happen.

2: We need to craft a foreign policy that defines "American interest" as joining with nations that support those principles, and not allying with nations out of simple economic interest. That means not selling arms or sending troops to defend monarchies that practice slavery and religious intolerance (i.e. Saudi Arabia, et. al.); not selling arms or sending troops to defend dictators (the list is too long). One thing in which I am in complete agreement with some on the right: we should not be sending US troops to nations that will not allow those troops to practice their faith openly and freely. I'd add that we should not send troops to any nation that treats our female soldiers and sailors as second-class citizens.

3: We need in all things to think longer term. It is cheaper and quicker to drill for more oil or strip mine more coal, but it's bad for the long-run, even if it causes short term pain to build more subsidized wind farms and encouraging the use of solar panels. We need to be more self-sufficient, more self-sustaining, and better stewards of natural resources.

4: America needs to become far less focused on world leadership and more focused on national and regional development. Want a secure southern border? Build a stronger economy and a better democracy in Mexico? Want an ally in Cuba? End the embargo, and make clear that democratic and economic advances in the post-Castro years (which are coming) will be met with increased US engagement. The US needs to stop feeling compelled to send troops to solve conflicts in the Middle East that, at the end of the day, are not our problem.

5: Tax and economic policy that leads toward the banana republic economic model (5% or less of the people owning 90% or more of the land and business) is incompatible with representative democracy, and needs to stop.

6: I support free trade, but I also support fair trade. We either need to not trade, or impose high tariffs on goods from nations that deny their workers basic rights; deny their workers decent pay; or engage in practices such as forcing female workers to obtain abortions as a condition of employment, or who engage in child labor.

This is likely more information than you wanted.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
32. Great answer. I agree. Please post this as a new thread and send me a personal message
Sat Dec 13, 2014, 04:52 PM
Dec 2014

when you do so that I can recommend it. Thanks.

polynomial

(750 posts)
14. The passionate for the wickedness
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 06:23 PM
Dec 2014

Knowing this crime exists, knowing treason against the Constitution exists, and knowing those that committed those actions that are antithetical to the depth of morality, with arrogance to deify God’s moral authority the life force, these men, in particular, Bush says “He did what he did let history Judge” Or Cheney says “ he would do it again”.

Then they are bound to the 911 ground zero monument which should have those words inscribed in granite the finest rock made forever mounted for all to see forever show eternity and recall their wickedness… never again their soul, or future souls of Bush and Cheney be in charge of humanity.


In the Constitution for the country I love so much just as a citizen to discuss what is inscribed for posterity for all to see, these men are satyrs, passionate for the wickedness, men who are famous for being constantly drunk in power for chasing that which is “In God we Trust” profiteering by lies in war and domestic and international economic suffering and plundering.

My God Dam them…

Thespian2

(2,741 posts)
19. Thanks for an insightful post.
Sat Dec 13, 2014, 09:47 AM
Dec 2014

To change the crimes of Cheney and Company is impossible. To hold them in contempt and give them a fair trial in a criminal court is mandatory. But only if the American people want their country back.
Let the revolution begin.

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
25. Parts 1 & 3 (links at bottom of source piece) are well worth
Sat Dec 13, 2014, 12:12 PM
Dec 2014

the time and effort to read them, imo. One of Pierce's better efforts overall.

world wide wally

(21,836 posts)
26. IF (big word) we were an honest nation, we would chisel off George Washington and
Sat Dec 13, 2014, 01:17 PM
Dec 2014

Abraham Lincoln from Mt Rushmore because they both spoke out against torture and would not allow it in their respective wars. And apparently were not "who we are".
They should then be replaced with GW Bush and Dick Cheney. They are now the face of this nation.

LiberalLovinLug

(14,689 posts)
31. What is lost in the debate
Sat Dec 13, 2014, 03:25 PM
Dec 2014

Is any rumination about eventual mass acceptance of the opposite of this desperate failing attempt to hold on to the moral high ground. To in fact embrace it (that we are a torture State). And thus any defense set in place to guard against that trend.

I believe that those "some folks" are happy the way thing are going. The end game is to "normalize" torture. Or at the very least hammer away at the meme that we NEED these "enhanced" methods because the enemy is advancing and getting stronger. And why should we voluntarily bring a knife to a gunfight?

So the first step is to get it all, or enough of it, out in the open, knowing their will be the usual suspects decrying it and getting upset. But at the same time you have Fox News and other networks like CNN (Blitzer's recent rant about American's dying if we even expose the torture report), defending torture. Mostly by ramping up the fear. (Which seems to work like a magic potion in the so-called Home of the Brave)

The next step is to use the media to create stories that illustrate how productive against terrorism this is, even if falsified. Or perhaps more about how we would be all much less safer if the CIA and others would have this "weapon" taken from their arsenal. I for one, after having watched how society adapts and accepts new ideas over my 56 years am concerned. If we, as a majority, can do it for positive changes, like the acceptance of women's right to vote, or gay marriage, I think the same pavlovian outcome could easily occur with the States right to use torture. I have already heard many of the slogans that are being pounded into our heads. "we live in a different world now" etc..


True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
33. "We" didn't do shit.
Sat Dec 13, 2014, 05:02 PM
Dec 2014

Unfortunately, that statement is true in both senses of the word.

We didn't do shit. We were not the ones who put those monsters in power, but we did not sacrifice anything to stop them either.

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