Castro won.

[WilliamPitt]

There's going to be a lot of shouting over this, because a whole lot of people can't seem to grasp one simple fact: Castro won this fight. He outmaneuvered every American president he faced, repelled an invasion attempt, thwarted serial attempts to undermine his government, and even survived a flurry of ham-fisted CIA assassination attempts.

Is he a nice guy? No.

Did he win? Yes.

Get over it. It's done.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/obama-united-states-cuba-embassy

[Throd]

1. But did Cuba win?

[WilliamPitt]

2. Did America?

[Schema Thing]

3. absolutely.

Their quality of life is better than most in a region where the opposite is true.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

77. If I were to turn the US into a repressive dicatorship while making it more prosperous,

would you approve?

(and that's taking your assertion that quality of life is better in Cuba than elsewhere in the region at face value, rather than suggesting that things like freedom of speech count as an important part of quality of life)

[Maedhros]

79. We have blanket surveillance, militarized police, institutionalized torture,

aggressive wars of choice, and a President who claims the right to execute citizens without due process.

The US did turn into a repressive oligarchy and no, I don't approve.

[Nevada Blue]

95. Agree! n/t

[Maedhros]

101. I left out apartheid. [n/t]

[NaturalHigh]

124. Well I don't worry about going to prison for criticizing the President.

Do you really think Democratic Underground could exist under a Castro regime?

[Maedhros]

155. Don't care. Not worried about Cuba.

I'm worried about the United States, and people like you who set such a low bar for how our country should be governed.

[thucythucy]

88. But Cuba under Batista

and the various right wing US backed thugs who were his Latin American contemporaries were hardly advocates of liberal democracy.

Compare Cuba to El Salvador, with which we've had close diplomatic relations all during the era we tried to ostracize Cuba. Which do you think has the worse record on death squad killings, assassinations of political opposition, imprisonment, torture, etc.? If you consider the sort of butchers the US has supported in Central and Latin America over the years--and remember that the US actually worked to overthrow democracies in Guatemala and Chile--you'll see how all our objections to Cuba's record on human rights might seem a tad hypocritical to the rest of the world.

Maybe if the US had tried to assist the Cuban people as they sought to overthrow Batista--rather than give Batista support because he supported US corporate interests--the Cuban revolution might have taken a different course.

[JaneyVee]

4. Cuban cigars for all!

[Initech]

58. Smoke em if you got 'em!

[Comrade Grumpy]

82. Smoke 'em if you can afford 'em.

[VScott]

5. Classic car enthusiasts and collectors are probably salivating right about now

[benz380]

6. I know I am! I can't wait to shop on Cuban Ebay! n/t

[dhill926]

22. Not to mention…

Music lovers. And rum of course…

[mainstreetonce]

71. To all the scuba divers

Waiting to dive those pristine reefs...happy bubbles.

[CTyankee]

119. they already are. Here are some of the Cuba travel programs available on Road Scholar

http://www.roadscholar.org/programs/search_res.asp?keyword=cuba

You can go there and do pretty much whatever activity you prefer. A friend of mine took one of these trips a couple of years ago. She asked me to come with her but I have been to Cuba twice (albeit many years ago) and had other travel priorities at the time. She loved her trip. My primary care doc and his wife did the same type of trip several years ago.

No big deal.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

7. If outlasting opposition, regardless of virtue (or lack thereof), is the defintion of "winning"

I guess Bush, Cheney and Rove won too.

[Tatiana]

8. Great. The embargo is stupid. It should be lifted as well.

The U.S. really is in no position to lecture anyone on human rights.

Hopefully everyone (not just Jay-Z and Beyonce) will be able to visit the island.

[SidDithers]

9. What did he win?...nt

Sid

[JaneyVee]

16. He won capitalism by spending decades fighting against it.

[Orsino]

91. I suspect that capitalism has just won.

Poor, poor Cuba is about to learn just how badly.

[Liberal_Dog]

21. Old Age

That is something that many leaders we didn't like never got to experience.

[NBachers]

143. It's also something that many leaders we liked didn't get to experience, either.

[BeyondGeography]

32. Well, he did win a thread title on DU

[msanthrope]

46. I just keep seeing Charlie Sheen....

[former9thward]

10. The Cuban system will lose.

So I don't know what Castro has "won". When I was in Vietnam in 1992, there were no relations with the U.S. It was a poor place and very drab, especially in the north. When I came back in 2009 I saw many shops, especially in the north, with Statues of Liberty in their front. Many others had American flags. Communism lost there even though the government is still nominally communist. Capitalism and American investment has brought tremendous wealth there compared to just 20 years ago when we normalized relations.

The same will happen with Cuba. A Cuba so close to the U.S. will lose their system in a short time to their great benefit.

[sabrina 1]

33. The Bush Family Dynasty brought Dictatorship and poverty, while stealing their

resources, to Cuba. What else is new? We do that a lot.

There was a Revolution against the Oligarghs, the Revolution won.

It is their country, the world doesn't need America to 'fix' it. In fact after seeing what we did in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya (have you seen what happened to THAT country since we 'came, saw and he died' btw?) the world doesn't want the US fixing anything, other than our dictator friends in Uzbekistan eg, where the people have no say in anything.

The rest of the world is free to travel to Cuba, to shop there, to make financial deals with the government, without invading them or arranging coup d'etats to topple their leaders.

We are the only ones who continue this childish nonsense regarding a country that we could be dealing with in a more mature manner.

But the far right won't have it, so it continues.

[LanternWaste]

54. So we've been told for 55 years.

"The Cuban system will lose..."

So we've been told for 55 years.

[former9thward]

62. No, we haven't had American investment or travel there for 55 years.

Big difference.

[NewDeal_Dem]

67. Like haiti has. To their great benefit.

[former9thward]

85. No American investment there or travel.

[NewDeal_Dem]

97. There's both.

[former9thward]

100. Nope.

Nothing like Vietnam or Cuba when it opens. Nobody vacations in Haiti.

[NewDeal_Dem]

102. Yeah, nobody. I even know Americans who've done it, though our law makes it difficult

(more or less criminal at some points in time).

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=vacation+in+cuba

Cuba only has 11 million people, so 3 million tourists/visitors year isn't too shabby.


Tourism in Cuba is an industry that generates over 3 million arrivals per year, and is one of the main sources of revenue for the island.[1] With its favorable climate, beaches, colonial architecture and distinct cultural history, Cuba has long been an attractive destination for tourists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Cuba

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Cuba#mediaviewer/File:VisitorsCuba.png

[former9thward]

104. Maybe you should read my posts if you want to comment on them.

I said nobody vacations in Haiti even though its legal. Yes, people would vacation in Cuba by the hundreds of thousands and that will improve the conditions of the island.

[NewDeal_Dem]

105. Tourism in Haiti is an industry that has generated just under a million arrivals in 2012,

and is one of the main sources of revenue for the island.

In 2012, the industry generated US$200 million (mostly from cruise ships).[1] In December 2012, the US State Department issued a travel warning about the country, noting that while thousands of American citizens safely visit Haiti each year, foreign tourists had been victims of violent crime, including murder and kidnapping, predominantly in the Port-au-Prince area.[7] Several hotels were opened in 2012, including a Best Western Premier,[8] a five-star Royal Oasis hotel by Occidental Hotel and Resorts in Pétionville,[9] a four-star Mariott hotel in the Turgeau area of Port-au-Prince[10] and other new hotel developments in Port-au-Prince, Les Cayes, Cap-Haïtien and Jacmel.[citation needed] Other tourist destinations include Camp-Perrin, Pic Macaya, and Île-à-Vache which includes Port Morgan and Abaka Bay resorts.[citation needed]

The Haitian Carnival has been one of the most popular carnivals in the Caribbean. In 2010, the government decided to stage the event in a different city outside of Port-au-Prince every year in an attempt to decentralize the country.[11][12] The National Carnival which is usually held in one of the country's largest cities (i.e., Port-au-Prince, Cap-Haïtien or Les Cayes), follows the also very popular Jacmel Carnival which takes place a week earlier in February or March.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Haiti


Population of Haiti is about 9-10 million. If about 1 million tourists are coming, still not too shabby.

[former9thward]

106. There is little U.S. investment there.

The infrastructure is shit. If you want to pretend Haiti is a huge vacation spot for Americans so be it.

[NewDeal_Dem]

111. Depends on where you go. Some sections of the country are reportedly very nice & far

removed from the blight & crime around Port au prince. Also suffered less earthquake damage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labadee

I didn't say Haiti was a huge vacation spot for Americans. I said it got about 1 million tourists a year. You said there was no tourism.


US FDI in Haiti = U.S. foreign direct investment (FDI) in Haiti (stock) was $68 million in 2011, up 4.6 percent from 2010.

http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/americas/haiti

[former9thward]

114. I said there was no American tourism.

Which anyone reading the context of these posts would know. And there is not. Probably more in N. Korea.

$68 million is the value of a shopping mall in this country.

Based on these
findings, the $68 million value of Suburban
Mall can be allocated to real estate and nonreal
estate value.

http://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1035&context=fin_fac

[NewDeal_Dem]

122. No americans go to haiti? Funny my cousin was there twice last year.

http://www.caribbeannewsdigital.com/en/noticia/haiti-transat-partner-travel-packages-american-tourists

http://www.demotix.com/news/230372/american-tourists-extracted-haiti-helicopters#media-230371

[former9thward]

125. So your cousin represents American tourism.

Maybe in your world...

[NewDeal_Dem]

126. You said there are no american tourists in haiti. But there are. and now I'm done with

you.

[former9thward]

129. Thank goodness.

I hope you carry out your promise...

[Schema Thing]

83. What Cuba transitions into will remain much more

"Castro" than "booyah, USA". To their great benefit.


They will not be saddled with American angst and prejudice against socialism.

[former9thward]

86. I hope Cuba is not your poster boy for socialism.

Because you really picked the wrong country which you would know if you traveled there.

[Schema Thing]

87. lol, ok.

Anyone who's traveled there is impressed by what they accomplish on very little money.

YOu can jingo away all you want, but they are successful and they will hopefully transition well to even more success in the near future - but we all know that won't happen if they embrace American style Rand-ism/capitalism.

[former9thward]

92. They are not successful.

Why do you think they have "very little money."? Food is rationed and people only have a limited amount of running water every other day. Vietnam has become very successful by allowing various capitalist methods to exist and grow. Travel and learn.

[Oilwellian]

109. Didn't we just cut food stamps again which forces the poor to ration food?

Also, limiting how you use fresh water on an island is a way of life, since most people collect rainwater as their source.

[former9thward]

113. LOL

You are really bending backwards to defend poverty in Cuba. The reason water is rationed is because the infrastructure is shit. Cubans would have a good laugh or cry at your rainwater comment. Do the people in Hawaii have running water just every other day?

[NewDeal_Dem]

130. Privatization....

Water privatization in Cuba began in January 2000 when the socialist government of Cuba created a mixed public-private company to manage the water, sewer and stormwater drainage system in 8 of the 15 municipalities that make up the country's capital Havana. The government avoids the term privatization, despite the involvement of two foreign private companies as key partners in the mixed company. The company operates under a 25-year renewable concession contract. It serves 1.25 million inhabitants in the municipalities of Old Havana, Central Havana, Cerro, Plaza de la Revolución, 10 Octubre, La Lisa, Playa, and Marianao, which together are home to 60 percent of Havana's population. The company, called Aguas de la Habana, has a capital of 8 million USD and is owned by the Cuban state through the National Institute for Water Resources (INRH), the Spanish private company Aguas de Barcelona (Agbar) and the Spanish family firm Grupo Martinon. The contract foresees that ultimately the entire population of Havana will be served by the company.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization_in_Havana,_Cuba

[former9thward]

134. Oh privatization is causing all the problems.

Before that they were doing just fine. ok, got it....

[NewDeal_Dem]

136. As privatization began in 2001, apparently they were doing better before, yes.

Over the past ten years, Cuba’s economic decline has led to a slow but steady deterioration of water supplies and sanitation services — and a resulting increase in water-borne disease. When water shortages in parts of Cuba reached crisis proportions last year, two communities solved the problem by taking matters in their own hands — and using slow sand filters as home water-treatment systems.

http://www.idrc.ca/EN/Resources/Publications/Pages/ArticleDetails.aspx?PublicationID=904

And the Cuban Government is paying for the little rehabilitative work that IS being done.


Although the thrust
of Aguas de La Habana’s operation and maintenance strategy has been
to rehabilitate the old and leaky infrastructure of the city’s network, it is
an easy success for the private side of the company to boast. After all,
Aguas de La Habana is able to pursue investments in infrastructure repair
and replacement because it is the government, not AgBar, that pays for
this work under the concession agreement. In other words, this is not a
regulatory success on the part of INRH but the outcome of a contractual
arrangement that relieves the private partner of this responsibility. All
of which brings us back to earlier questions about the benefits of this
joint venture: if long-term fixed capital investments are underwritten by
INRH, why could similar improvements not have been accomplished
by INRH alone, without involving a private sector partner?

http://www.municipalservicesproject.org/sites/default/files/Water%20Privatization%20in%20Cuba%20-%20Antipode%20-%20Vol%2042,%20No%201%20-%202010.pdf

[NewDeal_Dem]

131. The poster is a winger.

[frazzled]

11. This isn't a game, and it's not about which team won

It's crass and simplistic (should I be surprised?) to state things in this reductive way. Common sense, humanitarian and economic interests won. Diplomacy has won. Americans and Cubans win.

From the White House statement on the new policies:

Today, the United States is taking historic steps to chart a new course in our relations with Cuba and to further engage and empower the Cuban people. We are separated by 90 miles of water, but brought together through the relationships between the two million Cubans and Americans of Cuban descent that live in the United States, and the 11 million Cubans who share similar hopes for a more positive future for Cuba.

It is clear that decades of U.S. isolation of Cuba have failed to accomplish our enduring objective of promoting the emergence of a democratic, prosperous, and stable Cuba. At times, longstanding U.S. policy towards Cuba has isolated the United States from regional and international partners, constrained our ability to influence outcomes throughout the Western Hemisphere, and impaired the use of the full range of tools available to the United States to promote positive change in Cuba. Though this policy has been rooted in the best of intentions, it has had little effect – today, as in 1961, Cuba is governed by the Castros and the Communist party.

We cannot keep doing the same thing and expect a different result. It does not serve America’s interests, or the Cuban people, to try to push Cuba toward collapse. We know from hard-learned experience that it is better to encourage and support reform than to impose policies that will render a country a failed state. With our actions today, we are calling on Cuba to unleash the potential of 11 million Cubans by ending unnecessary restrictions on their political, social, and economic activities. In that spirit, we should not allow U.S. sanctions to add to the burden of Cuban citizens we seek to help.

Today, we are renewing our leadership in the Americas. We are choosing to cut loose the anchor of the past, because it is entirely necessary to reach a better future – for our national interests, for the American people, and for the Cuban people.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/white-house-cuba-fact-sheets

[mmonk]

12. Finally (and I'm a JFK fan).

Time to move forward in the 21st century. I want to visit there now

[hrmjustin]

13. I have high hopes for this new relationship.

[Odin2005]

14. You don't beat International Capitalism by being a nice guy.

[hack89]

37. Ten years from now Cuba will be a capitalist society

assuming that they are given the political freedoms to make real choices.

[Man from Pickens]

15. Who cares?

It's ridiculous that both our countries are held hostage to events that happened generations ago.

Personally, I'm sick and tired of being forced to relive social trauma from the 1960s that I wasn't even alive to experience in the first place. This country needs to get the hell over it and act like adults.

Nobody is going to fairly accuse me of being a fan of Obama's Wall Street-run administration, but he's absolutely right on this one. Time has been long past to bury the Cold War relic policy, and I'm glad to see it done.

[a kennedy]

17. Some of the most beautiful beaches in the world

I want to go NOW. 😊

[mainstreetonce]

73. I want my 90th birthday party

At the Hyatt Havana.

[NewDeal_Dem]

74. Better hurry up, they won't last.

[Dreamer Tatum]

18. Silly me. I thought it was about the Cuban people, not one person.

I was under the impression that it was la gente that mattered.

Turns out all along it was all about one man.

[Throd]

20. L'etat c'est moi.

[LanternWaste]

56. The one does not deny the other...

The one does not deny the other...

[GeorgeGist]

61. Don't let some wanker turn you now.

[bemildred]

19. Given the role Cuba has played in the Ebola crisis, this seems long overdue.

Castro is a world historical figure at this point, like him or not.

[malaise]

23. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Cuba is a great neighbor. What's more they have the healthiest and best educated population in our region. Any day of hte week have a look at the teeth of the Cuban population and imagine what we cold have done in this hemisphere if we put people first.

[bemildred]

24. Yeah, I like to rub it in. nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

27. Imagine what Cuba could have been if they let those people own anything

other than their teeth, which then again suppose belong to the State, too.

[msongs]

48. oh boo, everyone knows cuba is a workers paradise where freedom reigns for all people nt

[NewDeal_Dem]

78. Like the US.

[H2O Man]

25. Recommended.

You are right.

[Rhinodawg]

26. And those political prisoners sure as hell didnt win !!

and I wont get over that.

[MattSh]

44. Political prisoners never win...

not even those held in the good old US of A.

[LanternWaste]

57. The political prisoners in Guantanamo Bay?

The political prisoners in Guantanamo Bay?

[carolinayellowdog]

28. Half-century long feuds with next door neighbors reflect badly on all parties

As a child of the 60s I'm relieved and pleased that this idiocy is almost behind us at last

[Go Vols]

29. Maybe we will be able to fly direct now

instead of having to go thru Cancun first.

[riverbendviewgal]

51. In my opinion as having seen all the coast of the USA

except Washington and Oregon and Hawaii.
I been to the Baja and the Mexican Riviera (which is comparable to Hawaii so my friends say.)

but my personal opinion is that
Cuba has the most beautiful beaches.

[Fred Sanders]

30. Yes, and all it took for the win was 40 years of sanctions and lies and invasions.

Now the propganda war is going to be lost by the cons when Americans actually get to meet their neighbors.

[kelliekat44]

31. Well, I think he is even a nice guy. He fought the corrupt Batista regime and the organized crime

group directed from the beaches of FL. He kicked them out and they never have gotten over it. They have spent untold time, money, and lives to keep in place a policy of retaliation and retribution. Compared to Cheney and the evil folks we have to, Castro is a nice guy. Show me one leader of any country who has not been responsible for bad deeds in defense of his or her country...including Obama.

I say, this is a great day for the Cuban people and a greater day for America...like it or not!

The biggest news about this was kind of glossed over by the President when he mentioned (not by name or any identify) the release of a very high value US agent that not even the media could talk about.

If you are against this move, you might be part of the problem.

[giftedgirl77]

49. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[onenote]

60. Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and Reporters Without Borders see it differently

They all continue to criticize the ruling regime in Cuba for its repressive policies, particularly with regard to speech freedoms and dissent. I tend not to think of those who implement and maintain such policies as "nice guys".

That doesn't mean that what the President has done was the wrong move or that I don't support it. It was long overdue and I do support it. But like the President, I don't think that makes the folks who held Alan Gross in captivity for five years as "nice guys."

[NewDeal_Dem]

80. So does that mean you don't think Obama a "nice guy"?

Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International criticize US drone program, question its legality

WASHINGTON – The United States on Tuesday defended drone strikes targeting al-Qaida operatives and others it deems enemies, rejecting reports by two human-rights groups questioning the legality of strikes they asserted have killed or wounded scores of civilians in Yemen and Pakistan.

Human Rights Watch alleged that 82 people, at least 57 of them civilians, were killed by the unmanned aircraft and other aerial strikes in Yemen between September 2012 and June 2013 and called such strikes unlawful or indiscriminate. Amnesty International called on the U.S. to investigate reports in Pakistan of civilian casualties, among them a 68-year-old grandmother hit while farming with her grandchildren.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/22/human-rights-watch-and-amnesty-international-criticize-us-drone-program/

[xchrom]

34. if by being absorbed you mean winning - then yes.

but make no mistake - cuba will be absorbed by western interests.

[Vox Moi]

35. Finally an end to something completely unproductive

When the revolution became a fact and Cuba went 'Red' we tried to isolate the island and so pushed Cuba firmly into the Soviet sphere.
If I was in Congress and vehemently opposed to Cuba's government in 1960, I would have argued that the best thing we could do is to maintain full diplomatic and economic ties.
In short order, Cuba would have fallen into increased dependency on American markets for exports and tourism and then we would have had some leverage. Instead of none at all.
Hell … we would have owned the place in a decade.
Isolating your 'enemy' is a great way to be sure that that status in enduring.

Hold you friends close but your enemies closer.

[hack89]

36. When Cuba embraces capitalism will you say the same thing?

Castro has been fighting a rear guard action for decades. Once he and his brother are dead and the people of Cuba can decide their own future, Castro's legacy will be swept aside.

[Throd]

41. Will you watch MTV's "Fiesta In Your Face at Fajita Beach: Havana Edition" in 2017?

The future results of President Obama's action today will be a mixed bag.

[hack89]

42. I agree. There are decades of pent up and conflicting emotions and desires to be reconciled

but if the Cuban people are the ones who get to decide then I can live with results.

[snooper2]

47. How about, "The Real Housewives of Trinidad"

[Nye Bevan]

38. Plus, he never lost an election. What a guy (nt)

[craigmatic]

39. No humanity and common sense won. nt

[Paladin]

40. Castro won? Suits me. (nt)

[ucrdem]

43. No Che won . . .

Hasta siempre baby!

[mfcorey1]

45. When Utopia is found, let me know!

[stevenleser]

50. Odd post. Won? Won what? He was fighting for regional and global communism.

It doesn't look like that is going to happen.

I'm sure he is happy he survived but that is not what his goal was and for what he risked so much.

And now, like many of us said would happen, the restoration of relations with Cuba will accelerate the adoption of private enterprise by Cuba.

Someone who is fighting for an idea wins when that idea wins out, not by surviving.

[Hoyt]

52. Can we adopt their health care system, now?

[ohheckyeah]

53. American Cubans with family in Cuba won. Americans won. Fuck Castro.

[bigwillq]

55. Can't wait for Walmart to take over the island!

[SammyWinstonJack]

75. Oh gawd.

[roody]

148. Panama has a McDonalds on every corner.

You better go see Cuba now, before it gets ruined.

[chrisa]

59. Winning is an arbitrary and subjective concept

It doesn't matter who "won." It's a pointless exercise of mental masturbation. That describes America's obsession with 'winning' as a whole, actually.

What matters is peace, prosperity, and freedom. America's policy towards Cuba was pointless and a failure.

I feel the same way towards the debate of whether or not America "won" the Vietnam War. Both sides lost the minute they started fighting each other.

[KingCharlemagne]

120. I must respectfully but emphatically disagree with you about Vietnam. The Vietnamese won and

the U.S. and French lost. General Giap is one of the 2-3 greatest military minds of the 20th Century (right up there with Zhukov and MacArthur, imo).

All people under occupation have the right to resist occupation; Vietnam was no different in this regard.

[pampango]

63. That's what most republicans seem to be saying too. If we have to have a WINNER and a LOSER in

these international confrontations, so be it.

I am just glad that we have a president that sees the isolation policy for the evil that it has been and is doing something about it.

[Andy823]

64. Exactly. nt

[msanthrope]

65. Isn't that funny? This OP, and most republicans are saying that, too? nt

[Andy823]

68. Funny yes

But also expected from some here who just can't give the president credit for anything. I knew someone would start such a thread, just didn't know which one it would be. I wonder how many more of the anti Obama crowed will jump in with their own thread on this?

[msanthrope]

70. Well, once you've called the President a LPOSUCS, you have to keep up the street cred. nt

[Andy823]

110. LOL

You got that right!

[Bobbie Jo]

135. Again?

Next thing you know this post will end up on some RW blog.

[msanthrope]

145. No shit--and when you google the post, although you've erased the shit from DU, what happens?

The RW site pops up as the first selection.

[joshcryer]

139. Ironically, Democrats have been against the embargo...

...for the better part of a decade. In other words, the Democrats view the embargo as a way to keep the Castro's and their crony's in power, while the Republicans think it's "working."

What's funny is that the Democrats, Obama in particular, has called the embargo a "failed strategy." Yes, the strategy failed, and the US lost the embargo strategy. But it was a non-starter to begin with.

That doesn't mean the US has given up trying to bring more democratic freedoms to Cuba. It means we're just getting started on a better strategy.

[msanthrope]

146. And I think that the recognition of that is what is missing from the OP....which means it really

lacks depth, and fails to take into account the complexity of the situation.

Got a hide in your thread yesterday....my alerter has accused me of stalking another poster....which was the same accusation that got leveled at me when I quoted Caddyshack to Manny. Anyway....Aerows, the person I posted to, wrote me a very nice PM...I guess she doesn't think I am a stalker.

Makes ya' go Hmmmmmm?????

[NewDeal_Dem]

66. Will cuba survive as socialist? Yeah, like china has. What did castro win?

[Schema Thing]

84. Probably end up more like France than China, imo.

[NewDeal_Dem]

99. France was once the world's biggest power & still is among the biggest world powers.

Cuba has a history of being an economic colony of the world powers.

Why would it wind up like France? Look at other small island nations.

[Schema Thing]

121. Indeed, look at other small island nations

and then note how well Cuba does relative to them with the US embargo in place. France was just an analogy for the type of social/democratic government they will probably one day soon end up with. I could be wrong of course.

[get the red out]

69. Finally

We can start moving on from this very long, stupid episode in history. I am 50 years old and this embargo has existed my whole life.

[Arkana]

72. He won 30 years ago when the last architect of the stupid poisoned-cigar

assassination plot died.

He outlived every one of them. It's time to stop the bullshit. Want to beat him? LIFT THE GODDAMN EMBARGO. Cuba will get a taste of American investment and trade again.

[WinkyDink]

76. I prefer to think of it as: U.S. hypocrisy (See: China, Communist) finally LOST.

[ananda]

81. What about the people?

Will this effort have a more positive or negative
effect for the real people with difficult lives?

I don't think either country, the USA or Cuba,
has a stellar human rights record; but perhaps
reconciliation will mean a better life for many.

[spanone]

89. yes he did. time to move on.

[panader0]

90. Two words: Fulgencio Batista

[MFM008]

93. and now

He will die.

[ancianita]

94. You are so right! Tiene razon! Gracias para los factos de la historia. La lucha continua.

[Raine1967]

96. If anything, they won the ability to experience American capitalism.

I'm a little ambiguous about that.

I just think that this was an embargo that should have ended decades ago. The only thing Castro won is that he held his breath longer that the USA.

[Major Nikon]

116. The embargo will take an act of congress to end

So I wouldn't look for that to happen anytime soon. So while the entire rest of the world trades with Cuba, the US will hold firm on the righteous principle that godless commies are bad.

[Raine1967]

118. Strangely, POTU just dumped all this Cuba stuff on the next congress.

If they fail to normalize things its going to be the Repubs fault. I say this as it seems to me as thought the rest of the world moved on from this Cuba US colds war stuff. I know what I wrote sounds trite and simplistic, but I was born in 67. I never really got why we kept up with the cold war and Cuba long after the wall fell in Berlin.

It's almost like it the last hold on the *Cold War*

[LittleBlue]

98. Yep. Despite everything we've done, we couldn't dislodge him

Possibly the most resilient US foe in history. From an historical perspective, you gotta tip your cap to him.

[riversedge]

103. yes, Fidel did win. Now Raul....well....I do

not say he won. Raul sees the changing times and the writing on the wall. In the end-the people will win.

[NewDeal_Dem]

132. What will they win?

[mitch96]

107. Do you know who just can't wait for cuba to open up?

The Mafia and the cartels that ring the Caribbean. Lots of money to be made there…
m

[B Calm]

108. LOL

[RoccoR5955]

112. On its death throes, Captialism still seeks

to infiltrate each and every corner of the planet.

Not that we shouldn't have an embassy in Cuba, but now we will be pushing capitalism on them. Capitalism is, by its nature unsustainable, and temporary. But who knows, perhaps, by some miracle, Cuba can start to spread socialism around the world, by means of its relationship with the US. One can only hope.

[Zorra]

115. Again.

Last edited Thu Dec 18, 2014, 01:32 PM - Edit history (1)

[denbot]

117. Jury results LoL

2:10 PM
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On Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:59 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Don't let some wanker turn you now.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5972666

REASON FOR ALERT

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ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Calls the OP a "wanker"

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[anamnua]

123. Castro won?

Unlike Castro, aspiring American presidents have had to face those pesky things called 4 yearly elections.

[elleng]

127. And the Cuban people?

[still_one]

128. what's your point? The cold war is over, and guess what Fidel is retired. An opportunity not only

for relations, but for families to reunite now exists

[Renew Deal]

133. What did he win?

Not sure what the gain was. Surviving doesn't mean winning.

[sir pball]

138. Pyrrhus won too.

For the no doubt many people who don't get that, google "Pyrrhic victory".

[msanthrope]

150. No need....

[progressoid]

140. Well, if it's any consolation, Cuba will be mostly under water in a few decades.

[Warpy]

141. He won mostly because he outlived so many of the Batista Cubans

People who remember Batista's Cuba as the Garden of Eden are getting very thin on the ground these days, it's mostly their children like Rubio and Cruz who have been brainwashed into looking at it through those foggy rose colored glasses.

[moondust]

142. Wrong.

I tend to agree with several "experts" I've heard that this could all play out in the coming years similar to the way things played out in the 1980s Soviet Union: deprived Cubans will essentially be "liberated" by imported 21st Century material goods and services--and having choices--and will themselves demand reforms and modernization from within.

Turn the page...

[Rhinodawg]

144. Some of us still believe in Freedoms and Human Rights

you know...weird concepts like that.

[nilesobek]

147. A huge victory for Castro,

who buried Kennedy, LBJ, Nixon, Ford and Reagan. One man did all that. Yes indeed.

Where can Cuba turn now? To Russia? With anti LGBT laws and going bankrupt? But just wait for the IMF to get in there and own Cuba forever.

I salute the socialists who said, "NO!" to the USA for over 50 years.

[malthaussen]

149. I was certain we'd wait until Fidel died

Guess I miscalculated again.

-- Mal

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

152. won what?

His country got to stay in the early 20th century for the bulk of his life. So as he's probably lying on his deathbed, they finally start to get to upgrade into the 21rst century? Woohoo, he can have a modern funeral. What a great 'win'.

[ladjf]

153. What difference does it make? nt

[brush]

154. Countries have the right to determine their own destiny

The US does not own Cuba and doesn't have the right to say how it is run.

The Cuban people fought and won their revolution against a corrupt dictator propped up by our government, funded/bribed by US corporate interests and mobster casino owners.

Cuba stuck to it's guns and principles of it's revolution and developed relationships with the rest of the world, and gained much respect by many times sending their doctors to other countries/continents to help in crisis situations — the most recent being the ebola crisis in Africa.

It would have been so much easier to bow down and denounce the courage the Cuban people had in overthrowing a vile dictator by renouncing their revolution to curry favor with the US but they had national pride.

I commend them.

I look at it as Cuba won, not Castro won.

And incidentally, Obama chalks up another win as well, to the consternation of the repugs, and quite surprisingly, many so-called progressives.

What's up with that? Guess the 50 some years of anti-Cuban propaganda by out media and pols was swallowed without
question by a lot of people who should know better of the motives of corporate imperialism.