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[KMOD]

This message was self-deleted by its author (KMOD) on Sat Nov 7, 2015, 09:18 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[blm]

1. Of COURSE they are - they were innocent victims. My anger is with RW media

who will point fingers at everyone but themselves, even as they stayed quiet when RW nut cases have been ambushing law enforcements officers consistently for years.

There are no cameras on the police groups having politically charged discussions then, are there?

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&article_id=2862&issue_id=22013

[KMOD]

3. I can't argue with that.

[nomorenomore08]

21. +2

[Dawson Leery]

2. Please remember hate media on the right ignores

the right wing sovereign citizens who engage in violence against law enforcement regularly.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&article_id=2862&issue_id=22013

[morningfog]

4. They are all victims of a police force who has gone

too far and done so with impunity.

Injustice and systemic racism in police forces breeds this kind of mistrust and hate.

[AnalystInParadise]

5. Right

because a guy in Baltimore has reason to kill cops in NYC.....................The blame casting on the police for police being murdered is sad and a bit disgusting. Funny how the hypocrisy works when it is cops who are the victims.

[morningfog]

8. Who said he had a reason?

Any thinking cop would realize how bad it is for their safety when other cops kill unarmed black men with impunity.

The pigs who turned their back on de Blasio are sowing more hate, fanning more flames and exacerbating the problem. If they half a brain they would realize they have a huge fucking PR problem now. What they need to do is quit covering for and defending killer cops. And stop being so quick to kill.

The cops that were killed were innocet victims. Just like Garner and Brown and Tamir and hundreds of others. Just like them, they died senselessly and as a result of a system that hold officers to account.

[AnalystInParadise]

9. Still pushing that BS

"killing black men with impunity" garbage I see.

Nobody is doing that, what is happening is people on the LEFT and the RIGHT are fanning the flames of hatred. Innocents on both sides are now dying and we only have the mirror to look into to see that.

[morningfog]

13. Who are these "both sides"?

Do you see the cops as "others"? Do cops see themselves as "others"? That may be part of the problem.

And yes, many white cops walk scot free after murdering unarmed black men. In other words, with impunity.

[morningfog]

18. So the sides are "black people v. cops"?

I still don't understand the "sides" in this.

And who is reveling in this? I haven't seen that. That would be shocking and disturbing.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

24. Analyst will be able to answer on Feb 25.

[morningfog]

26. He sure takes a lot of time off.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

32. Looks like he's already back as Name Removed.

[morningfog]

33. Since he's flagged for review, that could be his swan song.

[nomorenomore08]

36. Either way, I'm morbidly curious about the "removed" response to me downthread. n/t

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

19. Get the fuck out with that "both sides" horseshit trolling. nt

[nomorenomore08]

22. So I guess Tamir Rice and Eric Garner got what they deserved?

[KMOD]

6. The mistrust is very real

but the killings of the NYC officers is as senseless and wrong, as the killing of Eric Garner was senseless and wrong.

[morningfog]

11. Absolutely. The person who killed them is solely to blame.

And their deaths are no less tragic or wrong.

[MadDAsHell]

29. No, guns are to blame. The people that pulled the triggers...

were innocent victims of the guns too.

[LittleBlue]

7. Too late. These have been politicized for months

And this is the result.

[Skittles]

10. I don't think there is any correlation

I think the latest gun humping nutcase just used the latest news-breaking incidents as an excuse to attempt to go out in blazing glory

[KMOD]

12. Oh, I completely agree!

But many in the media are trying to put some correlation into it.

[morningfog]

14. They may well be true. But it calls attention

To how bad the police image is right now.

Then the union had the gall and idiocy to fan the flames.

[Skittles]

17. it is a mistake to issue statements with grief and anger

many people could learn that lesson

[GGJohn]

16. +10000.

And again, you are correct.

[Rex]

39. I agree with that. He used current events as an excuse

to kill two totally innocent people wearing a uniform.

[TorchTheWitch]

20. whether or not Garner was a victim is immaterial

A grand jury decided he wasn't, and part of the problem with grand juries to begin with is that the public isn't made aware of why or how the jury came to that conclusion, but there is a reason that they did. The fact is had he not resisted arrest he'd be alive as there would have been no reason to take him down however it was done. There is no denying that fact. Personally, I'm not at all comfortable with his death and how his breathing was disabled by police, but since I don't know how or why the jury came to the conclusion they did as we aren't allowed to know that it is a fact that had he not resisted arrest it would not have occurred.

All your post is doing is further politicizing. The deaths of these two officers IS connected to Garner since that was the reason that this fuck decided to travel to NY and kill two NYPD officers and why a family member of the ex-girlfriend he wounded warned the Baltimore police who warned the NYPD though the warning came in to the NYPD at almost the exact moment of the shooting of the officers.

It does not have anything to do with whether or not Garner is a victim or how he died or why he died or why the grand jury made the decision that it was not indictable, but it's Garner's death that had everything to do with why this asshole traveled to NY to murder two NYPD officers in cold blood. They were assassinated while sitting in their squad car minding their own business and likely never even saw anyone about to kill them. Their deaths are in NO WAY comparable to Garner's, and you're bringing this up does nothing but encourage the politicization about it that you claim to not want. These three deaths are in NO WAY equal, and your post tries to make that so. Garner died accidentally - no officer had any intension to kill him - and had he not resisted arrest he wouldn't have been in any position to have his breathing restricted. These two officers were assassinated by an evil shit who traveled to NY expressly to assassinate two NYPD officers in cold blood in a twisted attempt at revenge for Garner's accidental death.

All post does is further politicize their murders, and shame on you for also attempting to make their deaths equal to that of Garner's. Those two officers were sitting in that car where they were and where they were not normally assigned to in order to provide a police presence because of the crime and violence in the area - in order to PROTECT people just by their presence - and were assassinated in cold blood by an evil nut case that traveled to the city for the exact reason to murder two and possibly even more NYPD officers. He also very well may have wounded his ex-girlfriend because she knew what he planned to do and tried to stop him. Luckily she didn't end up dying from his shooting her (at least not yet - we don't yet know how critical her condition is).

Garner's family utterly condemned their murders and weren't so crass as to even bring Eric's death up at all - who are you to do that and to try to make their cold blooded murders equal to that of Eric Garner's accidental death in resisting arrest for being caught once again doing something criminal that he had a very long history of?

Baloney you don't want the murders of these officers politicized - you just did in more ways than one.

[KMOD]

23. My response,

A grand jury decided he wasn't, and part of the problem with grand juries to begin with is that the public isn't made aware of why or how the jury came to that conclusion, but there is a reason that they did

The Grand Jury decision is very much in dispute. Many in law enforcement, many in criminal justice, many lawyers, and many even in the Staten Island Police Dept. are bewildered by the Grand Jury decision.

The fact is had he not resisted arrest he'd be alive as there would have been no reason to take him down however it was done. There is no denying that fact.

Please explain why Mr. Garner was being arrested. If he indeed sold a cigarette that day, it's a citation, not an arrest. He was arrested for merely questioning the police officers. That is so very wrong.

All your post is doing is further politicizing

lol, yeah lil ole me is doing that. Puhhhleeeze.

The deaths of these two officers IS connected to Garner since that was the reason that this fuck decided to travel to NY and kill two NYPD officers

Connected only in the fact that he wanted notoriety and used Garner in his postings to get it.

a family member of the ex-girlfriend he wounded warned the Baltimore police who warned the NYPD though the warning came in to the NYPD at almost the exact moment of the shooting of the officers.

link for that, please.

These three deaths are in NO WAY equal, and your post tries to make that so

please read my original thread again. I didn't claim they were equal, at all!!!

I'll go further, if necessary, but I find you post to completely miss the point.

[TorchTheWitch]

27. and my response...

Of course the grand jury decision is in dispute - because no one knows how or why they came to the decision that they did. This is part of the very problem with grand juries and why half the states have long since stopped using them in favor of the adversarial preliminary hearing that is public, presided over by a judge, where all the evidence is made available to both sides and where none of the constitutional rights of the accused are pitched into the toilet. Prosecutors are given ENTIRE control of a grand jury, and they're mostly used in order to lay charges on someone that the government dislikes, like protesters, minorities, labor organizers, whistleblowers, etc.

The very fact that they're secret is even worse than just having a prosecutor decide on their own whether or not any charges should be filed in a case and which ones and why since at least that happens somewhat in public where a prosecutor may have to explain to the public their reasoning in pursuing or not pursuing a case. And it's prosecutors who make these decisions on their own FAR more than a grand jury is used. There ARE many cases where prosecutors decided there "wasn't enough evidence" to pursue a case or that they did pursue a case when there wasn't that come down to political personal reasons of the prosecutor... every prosecuter wants a case that's a "slam dunk".

Had Garner's case not gone to a grand jury but happened in a state that used adversarial preliminary hearings instead then we'd all know the how and why of the decision, all the evidence, the laws relied on, etc. Like I said, I'm personally not at all comfortable with Garner's death and how it occurred and wish I knew what the reasoning was that the jury decided not to charge anyone with anything. I don't know, maybe there's some law or some evidence or some combination thereof that they came to the decision they did. It bothers me A LOT that his breathing was restricted even when he was still on the ground. It further bothers me even more that he did say he couldn't breath, and that's not something I believe personally should ever be ignored.

However, it is a fact that had he not resisted arrest he never would have been in the position to be forcibly arrested, and that IS on him. It doesn't MATTER that he believed he shouldn't be arrested or whether or not his arrest was legal, the remedy for that is ALWAYS through the legal system. Once the cuffs come out whether you believe you have good reason or no reason to be arrested the only thing to do is to accept the fact you're being arrested and not make it harder on yourself in any degree. Resisting arrest isn't lawful. The ONLY remedy is through the legal system. Of course it sucks to be arrested when for whatever reason you don't believe you should be, but the solution is to NOT resist and pursue any recourse the only way anyone is legally afforded to. It's inevitable that police will sometimes arrest the wrong people though they have no way of knowing it at the time. If anyone gets arrested unlawfully then they have recourse to sue for wrongful arrest, and be out of jail once the police understand they have the wrong person. It happens every day, and the police are never infallible.

In any case, this isn't about Garner's death which YOU brought up in your OP not wanting any politicization of the murder of the two NYPD officers. Yet bringing up his death and calling him "also" a victim not only brought up the manner of his death, but assigned fault, and lumped him in with these two officers killed in cold blood for no reason when his death was entirely accidental and brought on by his own resistance attempting to equalize all three deaths... you didn't need to explicitly make the claim, your calling the murders of the officers victims and also calling Garner's death as being a victim did it for you.

If you think that doesn't further politicize the murders of these officers I don't know what planet you're on. Take a look at the responses to your OP. Other than mine they all have to do with Garner's death and how they believe it was murder. YOU brought that on with this OP. YOU opened the door for exactly that to happen. What difference does it make that what you or I or anyone says is not in the news? It most certainly politicized it here and making an OP to request no one here politicize the officers' murders what else where you doing than talking about politicizing their deaths HERE rather than whatever the news is saying? Either you were talking about politicizing it here or there was no reason for the post, period.

You want me to explain why Garner's arrest was unlawful... tell me again how your post supposedly wasn't about Garner's death. You opened the door for it. I already said it doesn't MATTER if it was lawful or not. He still didn't have the right to resist arrest as his remedy is solely through the legal system. Having such a long history of arrests and court proceedings he also would have known that.

Here's the link you wanted...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/20/us/new-york-police-officers-shot/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
<snip>
Police were investigating posts Brinsley allegedly made on social media. Bratton said that the suspect had earlier shot and seriously wounded a woman believed to be his ex-girlfriend in Baltimore.

Baltimore police received information that Brinsley had made threatening comments about police, and sent a warning to police in New York, Bratton said.

That message came almost the same time the ambush happened.
</snip>

A number of other reports have said much the same or even more about the murder's comments on the internet.

[KMOD]

28. Torch, I really wanted to respond in kind,

but you completely lost me with this...

I already said it doesn't MATTER if it was lawful or not. He still didn't have the right to resist arrest as his remedy is solely through the legal system. Having such a long history of arrests and court proceedings he also would have known that.

I just can't argue with this mentality. It's just so wrong.

If it doesn't matter whether it was lawful or not, all hope is freaking lost.

[Rex]

40. YEP.

I'm glad someone else finally noticed that too. How can a cop expect citizens to respect the law, when right there and in their own words - they couldn't give a shit if it is lawful or not.

The disconnect is not on the part of the citizen, but the cops and it seems they refuse to admit to having any flaws. ALL IT TAKES it for good cops to finally stand up to bad cops.

Simple, but will never happen. Not when you deal with people that are never wrong AND carry a gun.

[nomorenomore08]

37. So by that logic, a person has no right to refuse an illegal search either.

You're just opening the door to further abuses by law enforcement, with that kind of thinking.

[hrmjustin]

25. Yes they are victims. May they rest in peace and may their families be comforted.

We will find out in the coming days and weeks why this happened hopefully.

[nomorenomore08]

38. I have my own issues with authority, but on a basic human level I have to agree with you.

[ChosenUnWisely]

34. Victims no, Causalities of a war that has been going on for decades, yes

We don't refers to military personnel killed in Iraq or Afghanistan as victims so why do cops get/deserve the victim moniker?

The fact is the Police serve to protect the 1% and part of that protection includes keeping the poor and minorities in their proper place in society and keeping the private prisons full. To keep the prisons full the police are not going to arrest the real criminals say for example the Koch Brothers, but instead go after the low hanging fruit.

Since the 1960's America's Police Forces have become more and more militarized always going after the low hanging fruit and the defenseless, yesterdays shooting is just blow back and frankly we are going to see a bunch more of it too.

On one level I really don't care but as a tax payer I don't like having to pay for expensive cop funerals either. What is the solution? IDK there will not be just one answer or solution but the start of the solution is that the cops need to change first and stop acting like thugs.

From where I am sitting and also sticking my finger up to test the winds is that unless cops in America change and change fast, there are going to be more dead cops due to blow back.

The cops and the 1% created the situation we are in today and if they over react which they always do, will only result in more dead cops.

[Feral Child]

35. They are victims of a suicide/murder.

NOT a political assassination.