Why EW would accomplish nothing by challenging HRC

[VanillaRhapsody]

http://observer.com/2014/12/sorry-progressives-drubbing-elizabeth-warren-is-not-going-to-move-hillary-clinton-to-the-left/

[hrmjustin]

1. I don't think Warren wants to go through the hassle of running.

[VanillaRhapsody]

3. and integrity.....

She says wants to finish her term as Senator...which ties her up until 2019

[Cosmic Kitten]

18. You don't think she wants to go through the hassle of running!?! pfft

WOW, where did you glean that insight?

Is Ms. Warren tired, haggard, suffering serious
medical concerns and passing out in public???
Is she a tired old woman who has had her
husband cheat on her creating a public embarrassment?
Has she been a corporate layer for one of the worlds worst employers?
Has she been embroiled in tawdry scandals, and suspicious murders?
Has she been caught lying/embellishing the truth about snipers and being "broke"
Has she been courting corporate donors who are destroying the middle class?

Just asking, because that's the tip of the iceberg for Hillary.
Not to mention the right-wing will drub Hillary with every shred
of embarrassing and unflattering "factoid" they can dig up.

Yeah, It's Elizabeth Warren who wouldn't want to go through the hassle of running!
Bwahahaha

[hrmjustin]

21. Suspicious murders? are you kidding me? Disgusting!

Is she at fault for her husband sins?

I can't believe I am hearing crap like this on DU!

[Cosmic Kitten]

27. Prepare yourself because the republicans will repete it adnauseum

You want Hillary to run... she's bringing PLENTY of baggage for
the right-wing smear machine.

Better grow a thicker skin son, the right-wing will hold no quarter

[hrmjustin]

30. We don't need republicans if members here are going to bring up this crap!

[Cosmic Kitten]

37. Are you whining? It's not crap, it's a preview...

of what Hillary will face in an election!

The premise of this thread is non-sense
designed to minimize Elizabeth Warren
and promote Hillary.

Is this really a conversation about what EW would
"accomplish" if she "challenged" Hillary?
Isn't that basically saying Hillary is inevitable, a coronation?

It seem to me Hillary has NOTHING to gain by challenging Elizabeth!
Ms. Warren speak for the base of Democratic voters, Hillary is an opportunist.
Hillary will not pull Elizabeth to the 3rd-Way, so why doesn't Hillary just bow out gracefully?
Hillary is old, tired, and has serious health concerns. She needs her rest.

Hillary doesn't really want to rehash her blemished career, does she?
Please Hillary, stay home and rest up.
Your family needs you more than we do.

[hrmjustin]

40. This is the second time you called Hillary tired and old.

Are you aware that warren is only a few years younger and that sanders is 6 years older?

Do you call him a tired old man?

[Cosmic Kitten]

43. Who else has suffered from blood clots and passed out in public?

Pretty serious health concerns for the commander in chief!
Hope her Veep is in better physical shape for that 3am call!

[hrmjustin]

44. And do you call Warren or Sanders old and tired?

[Cosmic Kitten]

63. Thats a personal attack

Don't accuse me of sexism.
Any further accusations of prejudice or bigotry is out of bounds.

[hrmjustin]

87. You still never answered my question.

[Cosmic Kitten]

90. Some people are old before their time...

It's not in the numbers, it's in the spirit.
Some people have positive, youthful energy for a lifetime.

Warren & Sanders have great energy and authentic spirits.

[hrmjustin]

91. As does hillary. Hillary is all over the place!

You may not like her but calling her old and tired is wrong imho!

[Cosmic Kitten]

93. Hillary does not have good energy or spirit, she's a panderer

It's painful to watch her pander to a crowd.
She adds pathetic southern draw, or urban slang
to try to "relate" to her audience.

It's sad and pathetic watching a grown woman demean herself
by putting on an act to "appeal" to voters.
SRSLY, she's an obvious fake.
That is not good energy.

[hrmjustin]

94. Listen we won't agree so you have a good holiday.

[Cosmic Kitten]

96. Ok, you too

[Cosmic Kitten]

95. As to being "all over the place"...

She is soooo energizing she couldn't fill an auditorium at Georgetown!
At frickin Georgetown? Really?
Couldn't get 750 people to hear her speak?
Not my idea of an inspiring, energetic candidate!

Clinton spoke at Georgetown University Wednesday morning to bundles of empty seats littered throughout the auditorium.

In pictures, empty seats are shown throughout the balcony level of the auditorium, with other empty seats shown in the lower level as well.

Clinton spoke to a foreign policy conference centered on “Security” and “Inclusive Leadership,” according to the university. The conference was held at the university’s famed Gaston Hall, which includes the 750-seat auditorium Clinton spoke at Wednesday.

As Hillary Clinton takes stage for policy speech at Georgetown Univ, scores of student seats, balcony are empty. pic.twitter.com/y2DzUprk8E
http://dailycaller.com/2014/12/03/hillary-speaks-to-empty-seats-at-georgetown-video/

[Thinkingabout]

83. If Warren was sitting on a 49 point lead I would suggest Hillary bow out but with Warren sitting

With 10% in the polls maybe you should listen to an intelligent Warren who says she isn't going to run.

[Cosmic Kitten]

86. The polls are meaningless.

These supposed "point leads" are about name recognition, period.

The surveys do NOT include any meaningful demographic/sample info.
No state or city info, no employment, income, education, race info, etc
that would allow us to determine the validity of the sample.

The samples are "weighted" meaning the results are not the ACTUAL results.
The polling company puts their thumb on the scale, in a "scientific way" to
ensure the results reflect their idea of how we should vote.

The sample sizes are anywhere from 500 to 1500 people.
Of those 500-1500 they are the only people willing to complete a phone survey.
How many people were called to get the final number of reply's? 2000, 3000, 7000?
Have you ever worked phones? Any idea how many people just hang up on cold calls?
So of the 500-1500 that do complete, "they", demographically speaking usually DO NOT
represent the mainstream, hence "weighting" the results for "accuracy". haha

So as to these POLLS, forget 'em.
The only purpose they serve is to mislead voters and creaet a false sense of inevitability...
which is why HRC supporters keep trotting this garbage out time and time again without
ever telling us straight out HOW MANY PEOPLE were actually polled, just percentages.

[Thinkingabout]

107. I Warren had any lead you would be excited but she does not. Since Warren has stated

several times she is not running and it seems Warren's are meanlngless to you also.

[Cal33]

108. For someone who repeatedly says she isn't running, 10% is exceptionally high! nt

[Thinkingabout]

109. Oh, yea, polls does not matter to some and others deny poll results if it does not fall their way.

[Just for Fun]

32. Get used to it

Because thats what the M$M and the right wing will parrot if she gets the nomination. Thats why im not supporting HRC. She is a recycled Third Wayer. We need someone fresh.

[hrmjustin]

34. It has no business being peddled here.

[Cosmic Kitten]

41. Buck up, Camper...

Campaigning is difficult and ugly.
You won't be able to "ban" unflattering comments
when it's the entire weight of the media bearing down on Hillary.

If you can't deal here and now with those ugly truths
what will you be saying when it's the MSM repeating
these innuendos 24/7?

[hrmjustin]

42. Did I say I was looking to ban comments. it is just sad you are doing this here.

[Cosmic Kitten]

47. It's sad to frame the discussion as EW "challenging" Hillary

The premise is that the nomination is Hillary's.
EW has nothing to gain.
Hillary won't move to the Left.

What is sad is that a primary challenge
is such a great threat to Hillary's coronation!

[hrmjustin]

49. I never said a primary should not happen.

I am not against a primary and I have said multiple times that she has to prove herself.

And that I will support the nominee.

[Cosmic Kitten]

53. But EW has nothing to gain from challenging Hillary???

So what is the point of the OP then?

[hrmjustin]

54. I didn't write the op!

I made the point that I didn't think she wanted to go through the process of running.

[Cosmic Kitten]

61. Yeah, you didn't think she wanted to go through the process of running...

So I highlighted why that is an assumption better made about Hillary.
Hillary has wayyyy to much baggage.
It will be a long, hard, ugly campaign.

I don't think Hillary or her supports are ready, willing, or able
to go through the process of running.

[hrmjustin]

62. Your opinion, yet you never answered my question on Sanders and Warren.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5997144

[Just for Fun]

55. We went through the same horseshit in 2008.

With HRC as the "Coronated One" long BEFORE the primaries got underway.

Do you remember the result?

If not, then I suggest you review the 2008 primary process as whole.

It got ugly. It created division. It created "Party Unity, My Ass" coalition who didn't want to align themselves with Obama.

So, I promise you this, if you think Hillary is the One, then you got some serious thinking to do. Her policies do not closely align with the platform of the Democratic Party, not by a long shot.

I'll wait for someone who follows the platform of the Democratic Party to the letter.

As of right now, only Jim Webb declared, and he's a marginal candidate, at best.

EDIT: Wasn't meant for you, CK. Sorry.

[Cosmic Kitten]

58. Um, you posting to me? Cause I'm with you on this?

[Just for Fun]

59. I know you're with me.

Was meant to address to hrmjustin....

My apologies for that...

[VanillaRhapsody]

60. did you read it....it answers you...

Besides she wants to finish her first term as Senator. She even said so...

[Just for Fun]

64. It doesn't matter if it's EW

or not.

I do want her to stay in the Senate and represent her state.

I'm talking about progressives who are true to their Democratic roots and stay left, or at least left-center. No right-wing tilts or Blue Dogs.

You see many of them are now gone. The Blue Dog Coalition is smaller each election year.

It's time for a choice - a real progressive Democrat, or a real Republican?

I'll tell you this: HRC is far from being a real Democrat due to her policies that favors the 1%.

[MannyGoldstein]

2. resistance is futile.

all your vote are belong to Hillary.

[LanternWaste]

6. Editorial analysis can mean no other thing to the simple-minded.

Editorial analysis can mean no other thing to the simple-minded. However, I'm quite certain it means nothing of the sort to you and yours.

[Logical]

98. LOL, you like trying to sound clever. nt

[Politicalboi]

4. LOL!

Yeah, she just might win. I know I would vote for her over Hillary, so why try.

[VanillaRhapsody]

5. obviously you didnt read the article before you posted.

indeed....

[Cosmic Kitten]

20. How about you summarize for us so we don't have to click your link?

Besides, no one cares if EW pulls Hillary to the Left.

Any move to the Left from Hillary would be PURE PANDERING.
We know Hillary is pro-corporations and anti-working class.
Why would we care if she pretends to be concerned with us "little people"?
Why do you think Progressive/Populists are stupid?

[VanillaRhapsody]

22. how about you read before you post about a link..

It is a short article...I am sure you can handle it without my help...

[Cosmic Kitten]

45. It's your responsibility, your thread.

[VanillaRhapsody]

46. is that in the TOS?

You are not obligated to read or post in my thread if you dont like it..

[Cosmic Kitten]

51. We call it a courtesy

We should not have to click other sites,
generating traffic for unknown entities,
because you won't summarize the main points.

Just do us a courtesy, C&P the main points
so we can decide if it's worth our time, K?

[VanillaRhapsody]

52. then dont click

You are not obliged and can move right along if you like...

[Cosmic Kitten]

56. Apparently you don't care to make your point.

You appear to be driving traffic to the Observer for other reasons?

Why do you want DU members to visit the Observer,
but not discuss the article here, at DU?

[morningfog]

70. They don't have a point. They just luv the headline.

[VanillaRhapsody]

71. you are not the boss of me..

[Cosmic Kitten]

75. Fabulous retort

[BlueCaliDem]

102. Wait! Wait! You call it a "responsibility" and then a "courtesty". Two different things.

Which is it? The one that fits your narrative in your quest to win an argument you never will and shouldn't want?

[Cosmic Kitten]

110. Are those things mutually exclusive?

[BlueCaliDem]

111. Yes. eom

[Bobbie Jo]

114. "We?" "Us?" "Our?"

Got a mouse in your pocket?

Although you make a valid point, please speak for yourself.

This "we" business is awfully pretentious.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

7. Alerter whining and smackdown ahead...

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Using a right-wing source.

This person has been bashing everyone who doesn't support Clinton as "left-leaning independent" and puts down anyone that isn't for Clinton. I would suggest that the jury review all of VanillaRhaspody's posts and see that the person attacks all the time, and always edging against the DU rules.

Please surprise me, jury, by hiding this post as nonsense and unnecessary at this point. No-one has announced on the Democratic side, and none are expected until at least next month.

Please.

For once?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Dec 23, 2014, 11:19 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: WHAAAAAAAAAA! One of the worst alerts ever. Hey, surprise me alerter : show up in the thread and admit that you cannot argue AGAINST this and would like to have it hidden because you would rather just not have to admit some people LIKE HRC! FFS!
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This post is not in violation of TOS. Poster's history of HRC fanatacism, to the extent it's even relevant, is also not outside the bounds for this forum. There are ardent HRC supporters at DU and in the Democratic party, just as there are detractors. Alerter can and should make his/her case in-thread rather than reaching for the alert button.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If the post was made by someone who always bashes everyone who doesn't support Clinton, why not just state as much in a response?
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There is a chance the right wants to see EW not in the race more than they want to see Clinton lose the nomination. That is out there. We need to discuss it.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Nope. Make your points in the thread instead of alerting on it. Simple, no?

[1StrongBlackMan]

8. While I kind of agree with the OP's second point ...

that Warren running, and losing, to HRC is unlikely to move HRC, or the Party to the Left, I completely disagree with the first assertion ... that Warren has no shot of winning.

Her path to the nomination, and the WhiteHouse, is the exact same path that got President Obama there ... by engaging 1,000,000s of, otherwise, disengaged voters.

[VanillaRhapsody]

11. and the odds were then?

Lightening in a bottle twice?

[1StrongBlackMan]

16. Well ...

people keep telling me that EW's income inequity message is the key to unlocking 1,000,000 of un/disengaged voters.

I'm not certain about that ... I am certain that those arguing that we most give that message primacy, with all other issues being secondary, are missing the engagement boat.

[VanillaRhapsody]

17. ahhhh...so they think everyone that fails to voteis because of that...

Very funny....

[1StrongBlackMan]

25. Well, I KNOW that telling me ...

that my issues/concerns are secondary, is NOT likely to get me to support your issues/concerns, even if I share some of those issues/concerns.

[Cosmic Kitten]

23. Better to nominate the last presidential election loser?

Second time is the charm, eh?

[VanillaRhapsody]

26. no... better to nominate the most popular candidate

That polls higher than all the Republicans....

[Cosmic Kitten]

33. You still insist on clinging to pathetic polls?

Lets review,
Hillary is within the margin of error of her republican opponents.
She will turn off Democratic voters for a number of reasons... mainly "it's her turn".
Once the smear machine and swiftboaters get going she'll look g~daweful to most voters.
Her candidacy will MOBILIZE the Clinton hater votes.
No Democrat is as polarizing as Hillary to the general public.
She is widely seen as a pandering politician.

Oh, but yeah about 200 people who answers a survey recognize her name...
so she's inevitable and unbeatable all hail queen Hillary!!!1!!

[Just for Fun]

36. and Hillary wont be the nominee

Once ●REAL● choices and not the lesser of the two evil cboices. I want a progressive candidate.

You havent convinced me that HRC is the person for the job. More and more backing away from that choice. Its name recognition at this point. When real progressives enter, her numbers will drop like a stone. And lose again in the primary if she decides to run. Id vote for progressives before Clinton if they do run. If Clinton is the nominee ill vote for her. No other efforts will be made because she is more of the same.

[VanillaRhapsody]

74. poll after poll with 50 point leads say otherwise...

[Cosmic Kitten]

80. HA HA 50 points... pfft How many people is 50 "points"

Lemme do the math for you.

Average of 1000 people polled.
50-50 dem/repub = 500 democrats
50 points meaning what 60% of 500?
so that's 300 people! WOW she's inevitable!!

300 random people who don't know the other candidates
would vote for the one name they recognize! wow!
You do admit that once Hillary cannot be their first choice
the candidates are all equal, right?
Which clearly shows it's NAME RECOGNITION, not electability!

Cancel the primaries... it has been decided!
Her majesty Hillary is our royal nominee.

[closeupready]

9. Pffft. You would start a thread like this, lol.

[VanillaRhapsody]

10. for the record..

I ONLY call those that will not pledge to vote for WHOMEVER wins our Primary a Left-Leaning Independent, because, by very definition that is what they are....

[WorseBeforeBetter]

84. Do you think the vast majority of DUers give a flying fuck...

about your pledges and juvenile name-calling? You toss "left-leaning independent" about like it's some sort of insult... do you really think the *non-pledgers* are intimidated? Why do you think browbeating is an effective way to rally someone to your cause? Silly, silly 'Nilla.

[AtomicKitten]

100. boom

[WorseBeforeBetter]

101. Maybe she'll think about it while on time-out...

but I have my doubts.

[Just for Fun]

103. I'm beginning to understand why this was alerted on

and the result should be different.. I may be in the minority....

[WorseBeforeBetter]

104. "You take your chances."

Some may have found it hide-worthy; others perhaps tired of the antics. Who knows.

[Inkfreak]

115. Ah-fuckin-men! (nt)

[mmonk]

12. It's not about what she would accomplish.

It's about what we would accomplish.

[VanillaRhapsody]

13. did you read it?

What would we gain by EW losing to HRC? What would it mean for her 2018 campaign for hr seat in the Senate particularly if HRC lost the General? You have to look at the big picture...

[mmonk]

50. In a way, I am. When Ross Perot received 19 million

votes, both parties in Congree had a session with him because they finally had fear of the people in them if even for a moment. At some point, we have to take a step if we are ever are going to walk down the road of self-governance

[Robbins]

14. SO your admitting Hillary is no liberal

Saying she wouldn't move hillary left proves hillary is no liberal.

Some of us who are liberal would like a real Liberal.Someone who god forbid would repsente us and not corporations and be "Bi-partisan" and sign republican bills Into law.

Hillary as nominee proves there is no place in democratic party for liberals anymore.

Democratic party has become a center right party and republicans are the far right party and both do bidding of wall street,Banks,and corporations.

[VanillaRhapsody]

15. it doesnt say that now does it?

Not even close.....besides I did not write the article nor did I comment on it....purposely I might add...

Some people have vision problems and cannot detect shades of grey apparently...

[ucrdem]

19. She might accomplish a Jeb presidency.

And that's a fact.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Unlike Hillary, she'd give me someone to vote for.

[VanillaRhapsody]

28. did not read it either did you?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. Yes. I did. So?

[VanillaRhapsody]

31. sooo?

Then your reply makes no sense in context....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. So, I disagree with the post and its implications that Hillary is the inevitable candidate.

Did you expect only applause for your Hillary promotion post?

[VanillaRhapsody]

48. and you are in a small minority who feels that way

And her polls prove it...so...you can have your own opinion but not your own facts

[Just for Fun]

66. Polls prove nothing.

Didn't you learn from the elections of 2014?

And when a real progressive declares - you better believe that HRC's numbers will drop like a stone compared to the jackasses to the right.

[VanillaRhapsody]

67. This article directly addresses that too...

But you keep telling yourself how easy it is to overcome a 50 point advantage....whatever gets you through the night...

[Just for Fun]

69. And what exactly was her poll numbers BEFORE her 2008 primaries?

I'll be waiting for your answer....

[VanillaRhapsody]

72. admit it....you did not read it did you?

[Logical]

99. You never address the 30 point advantage in 2008. nt

[Cosmic Kitten]

68. And her polls prove it... bwahahaha

Polls of 1000 people,
half republicans,
Hillary gets 200+ votes out of 1000...
based mostly on name recognition!

Which prove what exactly?

[VanillaRhapsody]

77. how many do you need?

Poll after poll say the same. Do you think its the same people every time?

[Cosmic Kitten]

92. How could we know since the pollsters don't supply the sample demographics?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

81. That's OK. I've often been a part of a "small minority".

However, Hillary was in the majority when she voted for Bush's war.

[TheKentuckian]

39. In what context? Reading your article doesn't require people to buy a lick of it.

[Rex]

38. Well she has said over and over that she is not running.

So there is that too.

[morningfog]

65. To sum: Hillary is even more inevitable this time.

Lol. Pretty weak article and analysis.

[VanillaRhapsody]

78. really?

Weak? Poll after poll says Democrats support her ....if that is what you call "more inevitable"....I guess that is your definition of weak...

[morningfog]

105. Yes, the analysis was weak.

It suggests there is no value to a Warren run. It made no mention of the effect of a Warren run on Clinton's position or the national party platform. It was simplistic and boils down to: Hillary is more inevitable then she was last time she lost.

[morningfog]

106. See you after Christmas! Lol.

[Kalidurga]

73. Posts like this make me want Elizabeth Warren to run more than ever.

Just because some people seem really really scared of what could happen if she did.

[Autumn]

76. If Liz runs, it will be to win. And she will win if she runs. This pulling Hillary to the left is

nonsense. If she has to be pulled to the left there is no point in electing her.

[djean111]

89. Hillary's campaign blather might get pulled to the left. That's about it. n/t

[DesMoinesDem]

79. Why HRC is ewwww and would accomplish nothing. FIFY

[benz380]

82. Your polls don't give you much comfort.

If they did, you wouldn't have so much fear of EW running against the Chosen One.
Deny it all you want. Your posts are turning more people off to HRC than helping her.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

85. Aww, locked out of your own thread and... on vacation.

Bravo, 'Nilla.

On Tue Dec 23, 2014, 02:54 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

this is all you have misogynist crap?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5997202

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Personal attack. Easy hide.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Dec 23, 2014, 03:12 PM, and the Jury voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see a personal attack in there at all.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The truth hurts.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Post could have been more polite, but it did have a point. I'd leave it.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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[Union Scribe]

88. Resistance is futile.

Conform.
Obey.

[Logical]

97. LOL, you are getting desperate now. Almost begging Warren not to run. Getting scared I can tell. nt

[1step]

112. She might be a good sparring partner in the Primaries

But Hillary will be the nominee. She has learned her lesson from 2008, the party establishment is behind her, and Warren simply can't and won't generate the kind of excitement Obama did in that election.

Besides, hasn't Warren herself rejected a '16 run repeatedly?

[brooklynite]

113. I suspect the difference btwn Warren and Clinton would be minimal...

I know the folks hear are imagining an unrepentent liberal flag-bearer, and if that's what you insist on, stick with Bernie Sanders. Warren, while progressive, is still a mainstream Democrat who thinks Clinton would be "great" as President (her words).

[ucrdem]

116. Warren isn't married to Bill and she hasn't been Obama's Secretary of State.

I know what you mean, they seem similar policy wise, but we really don't know much about Warren whereas we've seen enough of HRC to know what to expect. And if Big Dog and Obama don't give the 2016 candidate their 110% active support he or she is gonna get trampled. In other words they might say similar things but Warren would have a learning curve that HRC wouldn't and she'd have to get a cabinet from somewhere, and being the cooperative type who's recently worked on legislation with David Vitter and John McCain there's no guarantee those two wouldn't be on it.