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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsForget 'evil' Putin - we are the bloodthirsty warmongers
This is an excellent column. It is well worth reading in its entirety.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2882208/PETER-HITCHENS-Forget-evil-Putin-bloodthirsty-warmongers.html
Forget 'evil' Putin - we are the bloodthirsty warmongers
By PETER HITCHENS FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY
PUBLISHED: 19:23 EST, 20 December 2014 | UPDATED: 05:33 EST, 21 December 2014
<edit>
This is all the most utter garbage. Since 1989, Moscow, the supposed aggressor, has without fighting or losing a war peacefully ceded control over roughly 180 million people, and roughly 700,000 square miles of valuable territory.
<edit>
Until a year ago, Ukraine remained non-aligned between the two great European powers. But the EU wanted its land, its 48 million people (such a reservoir of cheap labour!) its Black Sea coast, its coal and its wheat.
So first, it spent £300 million (some of it yours) on anti-Russian civil society groups in Ukraine.
Then EU and Nato politicians broke all the rules of diplomacy and descended on Kiev to take sides with demonstrators who demanded that Ukraine align itself with the EU.
<edit>
Then a violent crowd (20 police officers died at its hands, according to the UN) drove the elected president from office, in violation of the Ukrainian constitution.
<edit>
If anyone really is trying to punish the Russian people for being patriotic, by debauching the rouble, I cannot imagine anything more irresponsible. It was the destruction of the German mark in 1922, and the wipeout of the middle class that resulted, which led directly to Hitler.
Stupid, ill-informed people nowadays like to compare Mr Putin with Hitler. I warn them and you that, if we succeed in overthrowing Mr Putin by unleashing hyper-inflation in Russia, we may find out what a Russian Hitler is really like. And that a war in Europe is anything but fun.
So, as its almost Christmas, let us sing with some attention that bleakest and yet loveliest of carols, It Came Upon The Midnight Clear, stressing the lines that run Man at war with man hears not the love song which they bring. Oh, hush the noise, ye men of strife, and hear the angels sing.
more...
eridani
(51,907 posts)Initech
(101,542 posts)zappaman
(20,607 posts)You've certainly been giving it your all!
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)Response to Karmadillo (Reply #17)
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eridani
(51,907 posts)--and you that, if we succeed in overthrowing Mr Putin by unleashing hyper-inflation in Russia, we may find out what a Russian Hitler is really like. And that a war in Europe is anything but fun."
We are all going to be nostalgic for Pootypoot if the Russian economy goes completely down the tubes.
zappaman
(20,607 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)approach, too!
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)This hate for all things Russian was taught in elementary schools.
Many are just not able to grow up and see the reality. We should just have pity on them. But the thing is they will cause the deaths of many if we allow them to continue on their hatred path.
Meanwhile the US Empire marches on: Which country is next after we assimilate the Ukraine?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)has made it easier for people of all cultures to see each other as human beings.
The whole Right Wing 'commie' thing doesn't mean much to the last few generations. The Soviet Union is history, and the world has moved on.
But the Right in this country seems to wallow in the long ago past and simply can't let go. They are slowly being left behind.
NewDeal_Dem
(1,049 posts)has been over since 90-91, 25 years ago.
There was a brief era of good feeling, and then back to the media hatred, only today it seems centered on Putin.
So we can guess that it's something to do with the policies he's pursued as opposed to say, Yeltsin.
I'm guessing Yeltsin gave away more of the store.
treestar
(82,383 posts)How absurd. And like in Soviet schools, they didn't learn wildly inaccurate things about the US?
EX500rider
(11,407 posts)I guess if you over look the whole war in Chechnya thing...or Georgia.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Sorry, I ran out of room, there.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)So were Georgia and Chechnya.
Wasn't that hard was it? Just because there's someone worse in the world doesn't mean something slightly less bad can't be called out.
EX500rider
(11,407 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)that their puppet in Georgia could do what they are doing in Ukr. It didn't work, the moron they supported there failed.
It's interesting to read DU lately on some issues. I see some people here on the same page as the far right when in the past, the line was clear between the far right and the rest of the sane world.
I'm not sure why this happened, but when I see the Far Right supporting or opposing something, I know there is a whole lot we on the Left have to do to make sure we don't end up on the same side as the War Criminals who are yet to be indicted. And yet, we have seen this phenomenon far more than we should.
WE are the country that is viewed worldwide as the biggest threat to world peace. It isn't Russia or Afghanistan or Iraq or any of the countries we are invading while telling the world, who are not buying it, that we are only doing these things to create a more peaceful world, or whatever.
Meantime the stupidity of driving Russsia into the arms of China and South America and elsewhere, when we had as chance to use them as a bridge between East and West can only be the idea of the same moronic, criminal Neocons who mired this country in a forever war in the ME.
NewDeal_Dem
(1,049 posts)Because some people here are right wing moles.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)sharp_stick
(14,400 posts)KGB piece of shit. I'm glad you found a hero.
Igel
(35,994 posts)There's a huge difference between finding a hero and just reconfirming an enemy. Any enemy of his enemy looks like a friend.
This isn't always true, but is when you turn the contrast up to eliminate grays and view everything through a narrow perspective. Then what's bad is very bad, always has been and always must be; and what's good must be, at least by comparison, very good.
The USSR ceded control over the population that Hitchens deems that it owned through weakness and the moral integrity of a few; the issue has been oft debated among a small number.
Sadly, one has to adopt the view that it owned and controlled those people and this ownership and control was somehow legitimate and justified for Hitchens' argument to follow. However, given the extensive sphere-of-influence thinking that has taken hold, for many, Hitchens' argument is the default position. Of course, this has implications if we extend that to the US--then the Monroe Doctrine should be upheld and be in full force, or somehow the US is uniquely disallowed from having a sphere of influence. Oddly, only possible geopolitical and strategic foes of the US are entitled to them. Q.v. my first two paragraphs.
Response to Igel (Reply #8)
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NewDeal_Dem
(1,049 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Difference is nobody is here defending Bush Sr.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)In the hour of the death of President John F. Kennedy, Texas oilman George Herbert Walker Bush, telephoned the FBI and named a suspect in a "confidential" phone call. He then added he was heading for Dallas.
Here's a transcript of the text:
TO: SAC, HOUSTON DATE: 11-22-63
FROM: SA GRAHAM W. KITCHEL
SUBJECT: UNKNOWN SUBJECT;
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT
JOHN F. KENNEDY
At 1:45 p.m. Mr. GEORGE H. W. BUSH, President of the Zapata Off-Shore Drilling Company, Houston, Texas, residence 5525 Briar, Houston, telephonically furnished the following information to writer by long distance telephone call from Tyler, Texas.
BUSH stated that he wanted to be kept confidential but wanted to furnish hearsay that he recalled hearing in recent weeks, the day and source unknown. He stated that one JAMES PARROTT has been talking of killing the President when he comes to Houston.
BUSH stated that PARROTT is possibly a student at the University of Houston and is active in political matters in this area. He stated that he felt Mrs. FAWLEY, telephone number SU 2-5239, or ARLINE SMITH, telephone number JA 9-9194 of the Harris County Republican Party Headquarters would be able to furnish additional information regarding the identity of PARROTT.
BUSH stated that he was proceeding to Dallas, Texas, would remain in the Sheraton-Dallas Hotel and return to his residence on 11-23-63. His office telephone number is CA 2-0395.
# # #
Gee. Why was Poppy Bush in Dallas when JFK was assassinated?
Could it be, he was on official business? I suspect he was on Secret Government business. After all, his eldest son bragged during his Texas Air National Guard and Harvard grad school days that his daddy was CIA.
Here's an FBI document from the same week of the assassination in which FBI Director J Edgar Hoover briefed one "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency." Some strange coincidence there, wot?
Here's a transcript of the above:
Date: November 29, 1963
To: Director
Bureau of Intelligence and Research
Department of State
From: John Edgar Hoover, Director
Subject: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
Our Miami, Florida, Office on November 23, 1963, advised that the Office of Coordinator of Cuban Affairs in Miami advised that the Department of State feels some misguided anti-Castro group might capitalize on the present situation and undertake an unauthorized raid against Cuba, believing that the assassination of President John F. Kennedy might herald a change in U. S. policy, which is not true.
Our sources and informants familiar with Cuban matters in the Miami area advise that the general feeling in the anti-Castro Cuban community is one of stunned disbelief and, even among those who did not entirely agree with the President's policy concerning Cuba, the feeling is that the President's death represents a great loss not only to the U. S. but to all of Latin America. These sources know of no plans for unauthorized action against Cuba.
An informant who has furnished reliable information in the past and who is close to a small pro-Castro group in Miami has advised that these individuals are afraid that the assassination of the President may result in strong repressive measures being taken against them and, although pro-Castro in their feelings, regret the assassination.
The substance of the foregoing information was orally furnished to Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency and Captain William Edwards of the Defense Intelligence Agency on November 23, 1963, by Mr. W. T. Forsyth of this Bureau.
# # #
Hmm. "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency."
Russ Baker in his "Family of Secrets" discussed these memos (which many first learned about on DU). Keep an eye peeled for David Talbot, who is working on Allen Dulles' connections to the assassination. If you see it before I do, please give me a heads-up.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Response to Karmadillo (Original post)
Post removed
mythology
(9,527 posts)They've invaded Georgia and Ukraine, committed genocide in Chechnya, suppressed the rights of gays, and imprisoned political dissenters.
Response to mythology (Reply #9)
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geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Very unsurprising from Putin's Amen Corner at DU.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Good thread from The Magistrate here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025726000
From bigoted, racist Paul Craig Roberts, who also is a favourite source of some DUers.
Sid
greatauntoftriplets
(176,695 posts)True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)We would not tolerate such an infestation by GOP trolls, but we tolerate it from a fascist foreign government Republicans love.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)Of many of these same folks calling Obama an authoritarian while swooning over a man who is a real authoritarian.
DU is never boring is it.
zappaman
(20,607 posts)gopiscrap
(24,130 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Is this guy fucking serious?
malaise
(277,303 posts)What surprises me is how gullible people are despite not only the facts but the number of times it happens in other parts of the planet.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)on the Ritz.
zappaman
(20,607 posts)True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)Ukraine has a right to decide who it associates with, and Herr Putler (yes, the analogy is valid - both because of Putin's actions and his rhetoric) doesn't get to fucking invade it to punish it for not obeying him.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)People to represent the view that they do not want to divest their countryside to American Big Energy firms, with all the pollution etc that would come with it.
Our leaders say they want elections and democracy, but what they really aim for is democrazy! And any time that people in other countries handle free elections, whose results do not agree with the better interests of the One Percent, then our nation targets that area of the world.
You only have to look at what we did to the people of Iran in 1953 to realize how treacherous and evil our nation can be.
True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)You did arrive at a time when a lot of others who I am suspicious of did, though.
And save the "F" word for those in power who have taken over democracies, the world over, and who support pieces of enslaving legislation like the TPP.
True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)Russia is a fascist state under Vladimir Putin. It's militarily aggressive, expansionist, tells Big Lies the size of all outdoors, and pollutes the internet with a paid troll army. If you're going to spout his propaganda, do it somewhere else. A liberal website is off limit to fascists.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)Nobody wants war with Russia. Seeing this strawman repeated in this article makes it impossible to take seriously.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)I can't stand the guy, so his opinion on anything is the last thing I want to hear. A right wing twit.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)that is destabilizing Syria and squeezing Russia.
So many cheer on the physical and economic destruction abroad, not realizing that the same force is pushing them down at home.
NewDeal_Dem
(1,049 posts)They're more likely in the top 20%.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)A large energy firm that is hoping to frack away inside the Ukraine, no matter how many elected leftists they have to kill in order to do it.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Oh wait, he hasn't? You mean PRIOR leaders of Russia had 'peacefully ceded control of 180 million people'?
How many people has Putin 'peacefully ceded control over'? Is it a number greater than zero?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)That turned out pretty well for them.
Ernesto
(5,077 posts)along with the Un-kid from Korea and Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini......
comic book villains that are based on real people!
BTW, bush and cheney are right up there with 'em.
Rowdyboy
(22,057 posts)DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)We're not perfect, but Putin is clearly a monster. Support for this homophobic genocidal maniac is sickening!
truth2power
(8,219 posts)Thank you for your continuing efforts to get the truth out here on DU.
You do realize, I'm sure, that, in regard to Putin or the events of the past year in Ukraine, what's the accepted narrative on DU is a complete inversion of the facts. It's widely understood, and consistently reported, by credible individuals across the internet, that there was a coup in Ukraine, instigated by the US government, and the ensuing events are as described, again, with consistency, across the board.
Further, there has been a vile and vicious demonization campaign against Vladimir Putin, because, in part, he had the temerity to say "Nyet!" to the Empire. For those who pay attention, Putin is being seen as a statesman, one of few on the world stage, today.
Yes, I said, "statesman".
His Valdai speech of several months ago has generated considerable discussion and has even been described as the most important foreign policy speech in recent memory. You'd never know that, though, to judge by the venomous and puerile responses, here, whenever someone posts an article that is contrary to the received wisdom that we're all supposed to accept without question.
As a matter of fact, I would be surprised if any of the naysayers have even bothered to read the Valdai speech in its entirety. You never know; they might learn something.
Karmadillo, here is a link to an article that I hope you'll read. A clear and simply stated response to Putin's speech.
"The New York Times doesn't want you to understand this Vladimir Putin speech"
http://www.salon.com/2014/11/07/the_new_york_times_doesnt_want_you_to_understand_this_vladimir_putin_speech/
Here's an excerpt:
snip>
Putins speech is so many magnitudes more sensible and credible than anything we have heard from Washington in who can say how long that one must either laugh or do the other thing. He has always seemed to me to honor history, and here he speaks with its authority. This is where the world is now, these are the mistakes that made it this way, and this is how we can correct them. And since it is all oars in the water, wake from your slumber, Americans.
snip>
As to the man who delivered these remarks, there ought to have been no need for me to propose the above experiment reading the speech while forgetting the speaker. But this is where Americas childish, undignified name-calling and demonization, as awful as anything in Lord of the Flies, lands us.
I think that phrase from the Christmas carol bears repeating:
Man at war with man hears not the love song which they bring. Oh, hush the noise, ye men of strife, and hear the angels sing.
Thanks for reading.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
truth2power
(8,219 posts)could you engage in a substantive response? Sheesh!!
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)And then, somewhere down the thread again, more of the same.
At least the other dialogue here's worth the read
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Actually, it's because he's jailing and assassinating dissidents and journalists, leveling his own cities to the ground, seizing parts of neighboring countries, and launching a pogrom against the LGBT community in his country.
Spare me the "woe is Vlad" bullshit. He's a fucking tyrant and a war criminal, and that people are here defending this low life piece of KGB shit makes me want to vomit.
truth2power
(8,219 posts)But it's been a busy day and I'm tired. So....
FAIL.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)zappaman
(20,607 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Last edited Fri Dec 26, 2014, 05:15 PM - Edit history (1)
truth2power
(8,219 posts)What is the purpose of throwing out some crude and puerile epithet to show that you disagree with someone's assessment of a situation?
Whose opinion do you hope to influence? Do you think anyone is going to choose your argument over mine? On the merits, I mean.
Whenever anyone does this sort of thing it just tells me that they have bupkis in the way of a reasoned response.
Thanks for playing, though.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Your "argument" is the defense of a fascist war criminal. If I could have puked across the internet, I would have done that instead.
No self-proclaimed liberal should view that fascist KGB asshole with anything other than utter contempt.
truth2power
(8,219 posts)I was just trying to inject a little humor. Sorry if it offended.
As to the rest of your post, you seem to be really angry about this. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
truth2power
(8,219 posts)jailing dissidents - just about every country, including the US, jails dissidents. Two come to mind, here: Chelsea Manning, John Kiriakou. Pot/kettle.
Assassinating the above - really? is Putin assassinating these people by his own hand? Who?
Leveling his own cities - see Sabrina's post, upthread.
Seizing parts of neighboring countries - would you be referring to Crimea? That train has left the station. Russian troops were already there. And Russia wasn't going to give up its only warm water port. Duh!
Pogrom against the LGBT community? Definition of Pogrom: massacre. slaughter, butchery, genocide. Isn't your allegation a little over the top?
In any case, here's something from Wiki...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia
Make no mistake.. I am wholly committed to gay rights. I am also vehemently opposed to the discrimination that gays endure in Russia. I also recall when "don't ask, don't tell" was the law in the US, and when Pres. Obama was, as he stated, "evolving" on some gay rights issues. He got a pass on that. I seem to detect some hyprocrisy in terms of the present situation I Russia.
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)He's murdering us in Russia, and here you are wiping off the butcher knife and telling us to ignore it!
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Do I need to get out my "Free Chelsea Manning" shirt?
I don't represent the US government; there's absolutely zero hypocrisy in my condemning Russia for jailing its dissidents, because I've been wholeheartedly supportive of keeping our whistleblowers and dissidents out of prison.
Whataboutism count: 1.
To name two right off the top of my head, Alexander Litivenko and Anna Politovskaya, one a defector to the UK who was highly critical of the Russian government, the other a journalist who covered corruption and Chechnya.
I highly doubt they're the only ones.
Not happening. What Putin did to Grozny was nothing short of a war crime, and if I have to see one more fucking poster here defending that, I'm going to blow my lid again.
Russian troops were there and relegated to their bases. That was their agreement with Ukraine. The second they left those bases and annexed Ukrainian territory, that was an invasion and illegal land grab. Glad to know you think it's just fine to commit an act of aggression against another country as long as it's for strategic/resource reasons. Guess that makes Iraq alright in your book.
He's damn well in the process of starting one. Too many parallels with the lead up to the Holocaust for my taste.
Wow, that's one of the biggest loads of horseshit I have ever read on DU, and that's saying something.
First of all, if you're making excuses for one of the worst enemies of the LGBT community abroad, then you're not committed to LGBT rights.
Second, you go right back to assuming I was in favor of DADT or made excuses for Obama's position. I fucking didn't, and I'd appreciate you not attributing beliefs to me that I don't hold.
Third, another goddamn motherfucking whataboutism. That the US had anti-gay policies on the book is utterly fucking irrelevant with regards to Russia. Both are wrong.
Goddamnit, that was horrible.
Response to NuclearDem (Reply #37)
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Boreal
(725 posts)Yes, Putin is a statesman and that's not his only great speech. I've read most of them, which can be found (properly translated) on the Kremlin website and they are all to the point, no bullshit, and very insightful. Very good reading. I think it was in his Crimea speech that he said, "You cannot call the same thing black today and white tomorrow", referring to the hypocrisy and lies of the west - lies and hypocrisy that get repeated by a few here (fortunately far more here see through it). It's the exact same shit as during the Bush administration only then it was called out for what it was on sites like DU. Well said, in the Salon quote, about Putin honoring history, too. He does and he is also very forward thinking about a future where in a multi-polar world (rather than Anglo-American hegemony) other countries and peoples have a voice in how the world is run and their sovereignty respected - all anathema to the Hegemon which seeks nothing less than total global domination, just like it's predecessor, the British empire (who caused the starvation of 30 million Indians, btw, for the sake of markets).
Sanctions and economic warfare lay the groundwork for a hot war. The US, UK and the Gulf State sponsors of global terror want war. They would have settled for complete capitulation but that will never happen with the Russian people or most of the Russian leadership (not just Putin). Russians do not want war and have bent over backwards to avoid it but they will fight for their own culture, land and very survival, as is to be expected and is their right. It's amazing how any in Europe, having been the theater for two horrific world wars, are chomping at the bit for another one. They seem to be absent the long memory of the Russians.
The next card the US/UK/Saudis intend to play against Russia is Wahabbi terror stirred up in Chechnya and the Caucasus (again). You may recall that Prince Bandar (House of Saud) went to see Putin last year and said if Putin would cease support for Syria that the Saudis would guarantee there would be no terrorist attacks at the Sochi Olympics, stating that the Saudis controlled the Chechen terrorists. Of course, threats get nowhere with Putin and just as the Saudis and US have driven down the price oil, they will employ the "jihadists". Oh, and those Chechen Wahabbists had Ukrainian neonazis fighting with them in the Chechen wars. The most well known was 'Sashko Biliy', killed by the coup regime because he posed a threat to them.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)I read the speech and listened to the parts of the Q&A with reporters which was over two hours long.
It's worrysome to see the same DU'ers constantly posting McCarthyite diatribes against fellow DU'ers.
What are they so afraid of that they use such tactics against fellow DU'ers in good standing here. I probably could guess....sigh.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)If Putin were an American president, would you be so fervently pushing his rhetoric and propaganda?
KoKo
(84,711 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)If Germany elected a pro-Russian government and US forces occupied twenty square miles around Rammstein...
If a US president launched a preemptive attack on another country...
If the US backed rebels in another country and made every effort to make the targeted government look as demonic as possible...
If a US president started requiring bloggers to register, jailing dissidents, assassinating journalists and expats, and initiating a campaign against a vulnerable minority...
...and then you saw self-proclaimed "liberals" excusing, defending, or pushing this shit, wouldn't you imagine something's up?
KoKo
(84,711 posts)of USA Disinformation which your post implies you've maybe missed some parts of.
Just think about what you posted and turn it around to reflect USA Policy and you might understand where I'm coming from
Your comment in reply to me must have been missing the Tag?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)None of here believed for a second that Iraq was buying yellowcake, aluminum tubing for nuclear reactors, or had anything to do with 9/11.
But people swallow that Kremlin bullshit out of RT whole.
They're even buying that classic Soviet propaganda tactic of deflection with American policy to shield Russia from well-earned criticism. Your post is a marvelous example, in fact.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)No?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Every single thing I've spoken out against with regards to Putin and Russia, I would, and indeed have, speak out against when it's done by the West.
Still can't say the reverse would be true for certain posters here.
KoKo
(84,711 posts).
Wednesday, Dec 24, 2014 04:45 PM EST
Russia, Cuba and the truth about Putin the U.S. media doesnt want you to know
We are making mayhem in Russia, and reality is almost the opposite of what is being described in the press
Patrick L. Smith
I cannot be the only one to note the remarkable sequence of events in the Obama White House last week. It tells us all we need to knowfor now, anywayabout what Washington is up to as it puts Russia in an illegal police chokehold. This will end neither soon nor well.
On Wednesday the president announced his out-of-nowhere move to lift sanctions against Cuba and reestablish diplomatic ties. I cannot be the only one to do this, either: I wept. Half a century of suffering pointlessly inflicted on a humane and very brave people will now come to an end.
On Thursday Obama signed HR 5859, the Ukraine Freedom Support Act, into law. One is always suspicious of bills with Boy Scouty names like this, and one is always justified: Obama just gave himself permission to inflict pointless suffering on the humane and very brave Russian people more or less arbitrarily and indefinitely. And in all our names, the Pentagon will now arm Ukraine with lethal weapons. Funny, the $350 million committed as an opener just about matches what Truman gave the Greek monarchists in 1947, so commencing the Cold War.
Let us end the Cold War 90 miles off our coast and far too late. Let us prosecute it full bore against Russia and along its borders, far too irrationally and nostalgically. I find one key to Washingtons reasoning, if this is the word, on Russia in this contradiction, because it is apparent, not real.
It is clear that decades of U.S. isolation of Cuba have failed to accomplish our enduring objective of promoting the emergence of a democratic, prosperous and stable Cuba, Obama said Wednesday. We cannot keep doing the same thing and expect a different result. It does not serve Americas interests, or the Cuban people, to try to push Cuba toward collapse.
With this statement a president who has consistently betrayed principle and common decency in deploying American power abroad went some way to redeeming himself in my household. Egypt, Syria, endless indulgence of Israel, the fight with China over the Pacific sphere of influence, those aggressively corporate trade deals Washington wants to impose across both oceansand now the opening to Cuba: This guy has the lumpiest foreign policy record of any president I can recall, but he bested 10 predecessors when he reached his hand across the water to Havana.
So went our 44th presidents 24 hours in the sun.
The Ukraine bill, a straight-ahead cave to unreconstructed cold warriors on Capitol Hill, ranks among Obamas most craven and cowardly foreign policy decisions. Sanctions are pointless on Wednesday, but let us provide for more of them on Thursday because the Russophobes, blunt instruments all, require them.
The Russian press wants to think Obama signed the Ukraine bill reluctantly. I want to think the Cuba move was an expression of who the man buried in Americas version of the deep state truly is. Maybe we are both right. But the Russian press and I have to get off the question of obscured intent. In the end this is a distraction.
Obamas State Department and Treasury are not stocked with end-of-history neoliberals by coincidence or some kind of carryover from the Bush II years. They are staffed as they are because Obama subscribes as avidly as any of them to the neoliberal agenda.
http://www.salon.com/2014/12/24/paging_keri_russell_russia_cuba_and_the_truth_about_putin_the_u_s_media_doesnt_want_you_to_know/
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)the hypocrisy of The Putin boot lickers here is astounding.
Sid
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)And these people still wouldn't fucking get it.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)There will never be Peace on Earth until we rid ourselves of hatred.
One subject that the Putin haters dredge up is the homophobia of Putin. Lest
I remind the haters that not that long ago homophobia was rampant in the U.S.
Russia will figure it out, hopefully, sooner than later. It has come a long way
from Lenin and Stalin so there's good reason to be optimistic imho.
Thanks for your post.
truth2power
(8,219 posts)Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)This is just a neocon technique designed to justify confrontation of one sort or another, which we've already seen in the cases of Iraq, Libya and Syria.
The politics of personal demonization serve only to instill an almost blind and vindictive rage, as it's designed to. Reason flies out the window and anything becomes justified. The results of this channeling are always negative as we've seen in the aftermath of Iraq, Libya and Syria.
Far better to hold your nerve and not let the MSM and neocons manipulate your emotions to their own ends.
Even worse, we now see the same techniques used to pit Americans against each other. Yet through the fog of emotion many can't see that they're being used.
pampango
(24,692 posts)I root for no neocon.
A devotion to strong militaries, aggressive foreign policy and nationalism ("restoration" of pride in, respect for, fear of the homeland) and disregard for a strong economy and middle class are common to all neocons.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)neighbors that he secretly wishes to.
Plus he is an anti-LGBT bigot.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Putin may be a dictator, but he didn't kill American citizens without trial.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Just because one country does something horrible, it doesn't mean another country is exempt from criticism.
Would have thought you, the expert on propagandists' tactics, would have recognized that old classic.
Please, with their utterly nonsensical coverage of MH17 RT is one story away from claiming Ukraine has bought yellowcake.
He preferred a much more direct approach in Grozny.
Certainly killed a few Russian citizens, though, unless you're delusional enough to think the assassinations of Litivenko and Politkovskaya didn't have his fingerprints all over them.
Doubt the Chechens got much of a trial, either.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Chechnya was full of terrorist rebels. Thanks for understanding why he didn't have to invade Iraq to steal their oil.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)But still, even Atlanta didn't earn the title "most destroyed city on Earth"; that title belongs to Grozny. With that comparison to Lincoln, I suppose you're actually in favor of any extreme to deal with terrorism, including the mass murder of civilians.
Why would he? Russia is the second-largest producer in the world.
Though if Chechnya had seceded, that would've been a problem for Russian fossil fuels, especially with that planned natural gas pipeline going through to Europe.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)A great article from Katya Soldak of Forbes from two years' back.
Message from Condoleezza Rice to Ukraine:
"The World is Watching You"
Katya Soldak
Forbes, 9/19/2012
Recently, Condoleezza Rice, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, Gordon Brown, Ukrainian president Victor Yanukovych and Turkish Prime Minister Recep Erdogan congregated at Livadia Palace in Southern Ukraine, the summer retreat of the last Russian tsar, Nicolas IIa Renaissance style building on the top of a hill, with the Black Sea rolling below. The same place as where Theodore Roosevelt, Winston Churchill and Joseph Stalin met at their famed Yalta conference of 1945.
The difference is that back then the rulers of the powerful countries met to make real decisions about the worlds future. This past weekend, Rice, and other guests of the 9th annual Yalta European Strategy meeting came to share their thoughts about the worlds challenges. Discussions today could influence policymakers and lead to making tomorrows decisions.
Among the matters discussed were the economic future of Europe and the role of the United States in dealing with economic and political issues of today. Meanwhile, the Ukrainian theme continued throughout the two-day conference. The government imprisoned former prime minister and opposition leader, Yulia Tymoshenko, and this has drawn criticism by the West; Ukraine tightens conditions for independent media and freedom of speech; the parliamentary elections coming up this October have already caused concerns among democratic observers on the subject of fairness and transparency.
Condoleezza Rice made it clear in her speech that the world is interested in Ukraine and is carefully watching all its developments: Country like Ukraine with consolidation of democracy is watched carefully, she said. Rice emphasized the importance of freedom of speech and free elections. If Ukraine speaks in one voice, this voice would be heard.
SNIP...
Indeed, the 9th annual Yalta conference by many opinions, one of the best international platforms for discussions among high-profile politicians and innovative thinkers is organized by Ukrainian billionaire Victor Pinchuks foundation and is taking place in Ukraine at a time when European leaders have recently boycotted the Euro 2012 soccer championship over Tymoshenkos arrest and detainment. The fact that American politicians like Condoleezza Rice and Britains Gordon Brown attended, cant be attributed to good relationships between Ukrainian and Western governments.
CONTINUED...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/katyasoldak/2012/09/19/message-from-condoleezza-rice-to-ukraine-the-world-is-watching-you/
In retrospect, it appears the Neocons -- the axis of Wall Street and Secret Government -- have stayed on top the entire time. And, like their ilk did to Iran in 1953, the Ukraine Operation will not benefit the American people as a whole, apart from Joe Biden's son and the others with a commercial interest. It will benefit the owners of Big Oil and Condoleeza Rice.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Russia couldn't have something as pesky as Chechen independence and self-determination interfere with their business.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Propaganda represents manipulation through information, false and otherwise. When you labeled me as such, NuclearDem, it bothered me.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Turning a discussion about Russian abuses into one about American abuses was and still is a favorite of Russian propagandists.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Don't take my word for it, though. Read and learn:
Unlike both Bush father and son -- both of whom misled the United States into attacking Iraq, a country that never harmed, let alone threatened, the United States -- Putin never lied Russia into attacking a country that never harmed, let alone threatened, Russia.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Special thanks for making it such a generic cut-and-paste reply that it has virtually no bearing on the post it was in response to.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Octafish
(55,745 posts)After all these years, too.
zappaman
(20,607 posts)Still not addressing the questions after all theses years!
At least you're entertaining with all that ducking and dodging!
Octafish
(55,745 posts)zappaman
(20,607 posts)Have a great new year, Brad!
Maybe 2015 is the year you solve the crop circle mystery and the JFK assassination!
Octafish
(55,745 posts)I've said that to you often, over the years.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x296398
zappaman
(20,607 posts)You've implicated EVERYONE except Lee Harvey Oswald.
I've said that to you often, over the years.
Do you ever tire of this particular smear?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4184210
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Stating something that exists only in your mind isn't just ludicrous, it's the sign of what kind of person you are, zappaman.
zappaman
(20,607 posts)Lee Harvey Oswald.
BTW, you must be excited about the Lions getting into the playoffs!
Go Lions!
Octafish
(55,745 posts)In the hour of the death of President John F. Kennedy, Texas oilman George Herbert Walker Bush, telephoned the FBI and named a suspect in a "confidential" phone call. He then added he was heading for Dallas.
Here's a transcript of the text:
TO: SAC, HOUSTON DATE: 11-22-63
FROM: SA GRAHAM W. KITCHEL
SUBJECT: UNKNOWN SUBJECT;
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT
JOHN F. KENNEDY
At 1:45 p.m. Mr. GEORGE H. W. BUSH, President of the Zapata Off-Shore Drilling Company, Houston, Texas, residence 5525 Briar, Houston, telephonically furnished the following information to writer by long distance telephone call from Tyler, Texas.
BUSH stated that he wanted to be kept confidential but wanted to furnish hearsay that he recalled hearing in recent weeks, the day and source unknown. He stated that one JAMES PARROTT has been talking of killing the President when he comes to Houston.
BUSH stated that PARROTT is possibly a student at the University of Houston and is active in political matters in this area. He stated that he felt Mrs. FAWLEY, telephone number SU 2-5239, or ARLINE SMITH, telephone number JA 9-9194 of the Harris County Republican Party Headquarters would be able to furnish additional information regarding the identity of PARROTT.
BUSH stated that he was proceeding to Dallas, Texas, would remain in the Sheraton-Dallas Hotel and return to his residence on 11-23-63. His office telephone number is CA 2-0395.
# # #
Gee. Why was Poppy Bush in Dallas when JFK was assassinated?
Could it be, he was on official business? I suspect he was on Secret Government business. After all, his eldest son bragged during his Texas Air National Guard and Harvard grad school days that his daddy was CIA.
Here's an FBI document from the same week of the assassination in which FBI Director J Edgar Hoover briefed one "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency." Some strange coincidence there, wot?
Here's a transcript of the above:
Date: November 29, 1963
To: Director
Bureau of Intelligence and Research
Department of State
From: John Edgar Hoover, Director
Subject: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
Our Miami, Florida, Office on November 23, 1963, advised that the Office of Coordinator of Cuban Affairs in Miami advised that the Department of State feels some misguided anti-Castro group might capitalize on the present situation and undertake an unauthorized raid against Cuba, believing that the assassination of President John F. Kennedy might herald a change in U. S. policy, which is not true.
Our sources and informants familiar with Cuban matters in the Miami area advise that the general feeling in the anti-Castro Cuban community is one of stunned disbelief and, even among those who did not entirely agree with the President's policy concerning Cuba, the feeling is that the President's death represents a great loss not only to the U. S. but to all of Latin America. These sources know of no plans for unauthorized action against Cuba.
An informant who has furnished reliable information in the past and who is close to a small pro-Castro group in Miami has advised that these individuals are afraid that the assassination of the President may result in strong repressive measures being taken against them and, although pro-Castro in their feelings, regret the assassination.
The substance of the foregoing information was orally furnished to Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency and Captain William Edwards of the Defense Intelligence Agency on November 23, 1963, by Mr. W. T. Forsyth of this Bureau.
# # #
Hmm. "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency."
Russ Baker in his "Family of Secrets" discussed these memos (which many first learned about on DU). Keep an eye peeled for David Talbot, who is working on Allen Dulles' connections to the assassination. If you see it before I do, please give me a heads-up.
Which is a lot different from what you said I said. And what you said doesn't really say much, does it, zappaman?
you've also implicated LBJ, Gerald Ford and Richard Nixon.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)I've written dozens of posts on the assassination. Where did I implicate LBJ?
Kennedy Military Aide: LBJ Hid in Bathroom, Cried After JFK Assassination.
Steven M. Gillon
Resident historian of the History Channel
Huffington Post
This month will mark the 46th anniversary of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. A recently declassified oral history by Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh, President Kennedy's military aide on the Dallas trip, sheds new light on the critical hours after the shooting. McHugh makes startling claims about Lyndon Johnson's behavior in the wake of the assassination.
The interview with McHugh, originally conducted for the John F. Kennedy Library in 1978, remained closed for 31 years. It was finally declassified in the spring of 2009. I just happened to be working at the Kennedy Library on the day the interview was opened to the public and have used it for the first time in my new book, The Kennedy Assassination -- 24 Hours After.
After being informed at Parkland Hospital that Kennedy was dead, Johnson raced back to Air Force One, where he waited for Mrs. Kennedy and the body of the slain president, and made preparations to take the Oath of Office. Back at the hospital, the Kennedy group loaded the body into a coffin, forced their way past a local justice of the peace, and hurried back to Love Field for the long ride back to Washington.
It was standard practice for the plane to take off as soon as the commander-in-chief was onboard. Even after McHugh had ordered the pilot to take off, however, "nothing happened." According to the newly declassified transcript, Mrs. Kennedy was becoming desperate to leave. "Mrs. Kennedy was getting very warm, she had blood all over her hat, her coat...his brains were sticking on her hat. It was dreadful," McHugh said. She pleaded with him to get the plane off the ground. "Please, let's leave," she said. McHugh jumped up and used the phone near the rear compartment to call Captain James Swindal. "Let's leave," he said. Swindal responded: "I can't do it. I have orders to wait." Not wanting to make a scene in front of Mrs. Kennedy, McHugh rushed to the front of the plane. "Swindal, what on earth is going on?" The pilot told him that "the President wants to remain in this area."
CONTINUED...
What I've written on Ford:
Gerald Ford's Terrible Fiction
Moving the Back Wound and the Single Bullet Theory
As a member of the Warren Commission that investigated the 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy, Gerald R. Ford, then a Michigan congressman, suggested that the panel change its initial description of the bullet wound in Kennedy's back to place it higher up in his body. On another page he also added "hurriedly" to the description of how the assassin walked away from the scene. (click on images to inlarge)
Read Gerald Ford's correction to the Warren Commission Report Draft:
page 1 page 2
The change, critics said, may have been intended to support the controversial theory that a single bullet struck Kennedy from behind, exited his neck and then wounded Texas Gov. John Connally. The Warren Commission relied on it heavily in concluding that Lee Harvey Oswald was Kennedy's lone assassin, firing from the Texas School Book Depository, above and behind the president.
Ford's handwritten editing, revealed in newly disclosed papers kept by the commission's general counsel, was accepted with a slight change.
The final report said: "A bullet had entered the base of the back of his neck slightly to the right of his spine." A small change," said Ford on Wednesday, one intended to clarify meaning, not alter history.
"My changes had nothing to do with a conspiracy theory," he said.
"My changes were only an attempt to be more precise."
The initial draft of the report stated: "A bullet had entered his back at a point slightly above the shoulder to the right of the spine."
Ford wanted it to read:"A bullet had entered the back of his neck slightly to the right of the spine."
CONTINUED with photos and original documents...
http://www.jfklancer.com/Ford-Rankin.html
So, in order for the magic bullet to work, Jerry Ford had to move the location of President Kennedy's wounds to line up. That's dishonest, at best.
In addition to serving on the Warren Commission, Gerald Ford would later become the first unelected president of the United States, remembered as the man who pardoned Nixon and kept all the dirty laundry out of court and the public eye. Odd how often he turn up to help the secret state.
What I've written on Nixon:
His source was the White House tapes: Nixon OK'd assigning a murderous Secret Service agent to protect Sen. Ted Kennedy. The agent chosen had told Haldeman that he would "kill anyone on your or the president's command" to "watch over" Ted Kennedy.
You can hear Nixon and Haldeman discuss it, about 40 minutes into the HBO documentary "Nixon by Nixon." While I had read the part of the transcript available years ago, and wrote about it on DU, almost no one I know has heard anything about it.
Ted Kennedy survived Richard Nixon's Plots
By Don Fulsom
In September 1972, Nixons continued political fear, personal loathing, and jealously of Kennedy led him to plant a spy in Kennedys Secret Service detail.
The mole Nixon selected for the Kennedy camp was already being groomed. He was a former agent from his Nixons vice presidential detail, Robert Newbranda man so loyal he once pledged he would do anythingeven killfor Nixon.
The President was most interested in learning about the Sen. Kennedys sex life. He wanted, more than anything, stated Haldeman in The Ends of Power, to catch (Kennedy) in the sack with one of his babes.
In a recently transcribed tape of a September 8, 1972 talk among the President and aides Bob Haldeman and Alexander Butterfield, Nixon asks whether Secret Service chief James Rowley would appoint Newbrand to head Kennedys detail:
Haldeman: He's to assign Newbrand.
President Nixon: Does he understand that he's to do that?
Butterfield: He's effectively already done it. And we have a full force assigned, 40 men.
Haldeman: I told them to put a big detail on him (unclear).
President Nixon: A big detail is correct. One that can cover him around the clock, every place he goes. (Laughter obscures mixed voices.)
President Nixon: Right. No, that's really true. He has got to have the same coverage that we give the others, because we're concerned about security and we will not assume the responsibility unless we're with him all the time.
Haldeman: And Amanda Burden (one of Kennedys alleged girlfriends) can't be trusted. (Unclear.) You never know what she might do. (Unclear.)
Haldeman then assures the President that Newbrand will do anything that I tell him to He really will. And he has come to me twice and absolutely, sincerely said, "With what you've done for me and what the President's done for me, I just want you to know, if you want someone killed, if you want anything else done, any way, any direction "
President Nixon: The thing that I (unclear) is this: We just might get lucky and catch this son-of-a-bitch and ruin him for '76.
Haldeman: That's right.
President Nixon: He doesn't know what he's really getting into. We're going to cover him, and we are not going to take "no" for an answer. He can't say "no." The Kennedys are arrogant as hell with these Secret Service. He says, "Fine," and (Newbrand) should pick the detail, too.
Toward the end of this conversation, Nixon exclaims that Newbrands spying (is) going to be fun, and Haldeman responds: Newbrand will just love it.
Nixon also had a surveillance tip for Haldeman for his spy-to-be: I want you to tell Newbrand if you will that (unclear) because he's a Catholic, sort of play it, he was for Jack Kennedy all the time. Play up to Kennedy, that "I'm a great admirer of Jack Kennedy." He's a member of the Holy Name Society. He wears a St. Christopher (unclear). Haldeman laughs heartily at the Presidents curious advice.
Despite the enthusiasm of Nixon and Haldeman, Newbrand apparently never produced anything of great value. When this particular round of Nixons spying on Kennedy was uncovered in 1997, The Washington Post quoted Butterfield as saying periodic reports on Kennedy's activities were delivered to Haldeman, but that Butterfield did not think any potentially damaging information was ever dug up.
SOURCE:
http://surftofind.com/tedkennedy
Why does that matter? The Warren Commission, and the nation's mass media, never heard about the CIA-Mafia plots to kill Castro until the Church Committee in 1975. You'd think that would be a matter of concern to all Americans, especially considering how then-vice president Nixon was head of the "White House Action Team" that contacted the Mafia for murder.
This is the sort of information citizens of a democracy shouldn't have to search the Internet to learn. It should be taught in school, or at the least, discussed in the nation's mass media. It's why people come to DU to learn.
Almost forgot: Even with GOOGLE, I can't find anything worth reading that you've posted about the assassination, zappaman. You wouldn't happen to have a link showing where you actually contribute something worth reading?
Here's my favorite link.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2261046
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Even after all these years of trying.
zappaman
(20,607 posts)Does it ever?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Emoticons, too.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Odd how you and your tag team fellows follow that as a matter of faith.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Other than being yet another tu quoque fallacy, that is.
Also, you may not want to open the can of Nazi comparisons, especially when the other leader involved is essentially carrying out a play-by-play repeat of Sudetenland and the early stages of the Holocaust.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)I explained it to you. Why keep asking?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)All you've provided is a giant tu quoque fallacy.
And not even a correct one, since you seem to forget that Russia invaded and annexed part of Ukraine.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)As for the Crimea, it voted.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)And on a referendum that was so obviously slanted in Russia's favor. No status quo option.
As for the thread title, that whole damn article is just as much a tu quoque fallacy as your posts on the issue. Russia's abuses are not excused because the US has done worse; it's not a zero-sum game.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Maybe it's more subtle than a direct attack, but I don't think the nations bordering Russia are respected or safe, especially if they have oil or a pipeline.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)CIA made out it was a slam dunk.
zappaman
(20,607 posts)After they make circles in cornfields, they shoot down aircraft.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)a ground attack aircraft shot down an aircraft flying ten thousand feet above its operational ceiling with absolutely no apparent motive.
zappaman
(20,607 posts)I'm sure they can convince somebody, somewhere with this bullshit if they try hard enough!
treestar
(82,383 posts)At least if you are making up a story, make it up about a plane that flies as high as the shot down plane. Geez, these people aren't even good at fictional propaganda!
zappaman
(20,607 posts)Putin stayed his hand and showed how reasonable he was by not invading Iraq after the US experienced the worst terrorist attack in it's history.
What more proof do you need that America is more bloodthirsty than Russia?
treestar
(82,383 posts)who were Chechens, but Putin so peacefully left Chechnya alone.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Putin doesn't have to lie people into war - he just starts them. That's because he doesn't need the consent of the governed at all.
I don't have a doubt that Putin would kill anyone without trial if it suited his ends and he could get away with it politically.
zappaman
(20,607 posts)Duh.
I'm moving to Russia to be free!
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Scapegoating LGBT and a military conquest to increase his country's territory is just his way of being a swell guy.
Why don't more people understand that?
--- in case it's needed